Talk:Palisades Fire (2025)

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Rename to Palisades Fire?

Please continue discussion in the RM below.--Jasper Deng (talk) 10:30, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

i feel like this one is gonna be the most known palisades wildfire. For this reason. Can we change it to just Palisades Fire? i didn't even know about the 2021 one til now. Hunterman546 (talk) 02:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

WP:CRYSTAL Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 05:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

regardless, it will be useful to have the 2021 and 2025 distinctions on each article. Delectopierre (talk) 05:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Wildfireupdateman: Now that it's been a couple of days it's no longer in question that this is by far the more notable Palisades Fire. Also, it is frowned upon to point to a policy shortcut without explaining how it applies to the exact situation at hand.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What benefit is there to removing the year from either of the palisades fires? Delectopierre (talk) 08:51, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move?

There is a new fire in LACO(Eaton fire) that may also have significant effects. Should we move this to something like "2025 Los Angeles County wildfires?" Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 05:44, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes or even “2025 Southern California wildfires.” There are now 6 separate named fires. Jusdafax (talk) 06:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would support an overview article but think there will be enough content on this fire alone per WP:SPLIT, just like the Tubbs Fire has its own article. Jasper Deng (talk) 07:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think this fire is notable enough for its own article; the other fires can go in the broader 2025 California wildfires article. harrz ^talk 08:19, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Keep it as its own, and add a second article for January 2025 Southern California Wildfires.

This will be a VERY bad fire season in southern California. This fire is already significant enough for its own article. AND the six fires are a notable event. Delectopierre (talk) 10:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source says:

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Swain noted that parts of Southern California are experiencing the driest start to the season on record, as well as the driest 9-month period ever observed." " Portions of San Diego County have seen their driest start to the season (and 9-month period overall)"

WP says " It quickly spread due to a combination of severe drought, which was the driest 9-month period on record, in Southern California"

It's not even SYNTH, it is hyperbolic exaggeration. 2601:46:C47F:5A0:214C:8A0A:A756:D282 (talk) 17:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Severe drought leading to extremely dry fuel loads is most definitely a cause as directly stated by other news sources so this objection is not sustained.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Good irrelevant point.

Palisades is not in San Diego County.

The source clearly says and even includes a picture that county is the one experiencing the driest 9 month period on record.

Why does WP say Palisades in LA County is experiencing the driest 9 month period on record? 2601:46:C47F:5A0:214C:8A0A:A756:D282 (talk) 18:00, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Because that is literally what the source/KTLA says? -- Very Polite Person (talk) 18:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Deaths to Impact?

ABC News reporting five confirmed deaths from the fire:

https://abc7.com/live-updates/socal-braces-possibly-destructive-windstorm-amid-dangerous-fire-weather/15771235/entry/15779338/

https://www.yahoo.com/news/live/los-angeles-wildfires-live-updates-5-killed-palisades-and-eaton-fires-spread-across-26000-acres-with-0-containment-141555849.html 71.202.227.142 (talk) 23:23, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

These deaths are from the concurrent Eaton Fire. harrz ^talk 15:47, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

fire hydrants ran out of water

I'm on mobile right now so dropping this here instead of writing it myself. We should surely work this into the article. https://www.npr.org/2025/01/08/g-s1-41690/california-wildfire-water-hydrants-pacific-palisades –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

i added a section in the background about pre-pumping. i can try to add something later about the demand outpacing supply, however feel free to as well. here's another good article: https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/california-wildfires/palisades-fire-firefighters-water-pressure/3597877/

it may be useful (esp given misinformation going around) to mention that this is a common occurrence with firefighting at elevation and that the tanks were there to try to prevent loss of pressure. see e.g. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Oakland_firestorm_of_1991 Delectopierre (talk) 06:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I added a sentence just now as well. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures

Any free photo requests? I can take some and PD them for use here. DarmaniLink (talk) DarmaniLink (talk) 03:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Steve Guttenberg quote

The extensive quote from Steve Guttenberg seems unnecessary. A single summary sentence will suffice, as readers can go to the source to see his full statement. Fences&Windows 08:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't read it closely so I'm not sure if a single sentence captures it or not, but I completely agree. It takes up a grossly disproportionate amount of the article. Delectopierre (talk) 08:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Removed as WP:UNDUE.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 9 January 2025

It has been proposed in this section that Palisades Fire (2025) be renamed and moved to Palisades Fire.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

Palisades Fire (2025) → Palisades Fire – This fire is now orders of magnitude larger and more destructive than Palisades Fire (2021). It is the clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I made the dab page originally when it was not yet certain what the extent of impacts were, but now it is clear this one blows the previous one out of the water.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:37, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I see no benefit to removing the year from either article title. Make the case. Delectopierre (talk) 08:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Delectopierre: Please read WP:PRIMARYTOPIC which requires that when a title refers to one particular entity overwhelmingly in reliable sources, as is the case is here (and will remain, in view of how this may be the single most damaging wildfire ever worldwide), the disambiguator must not be used on the article for that entity. For example, gold refers overwhelmingly to the element and not gold (color) or gold medal.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:57, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see size as equal to primary. That seems to be WP:RECENTISM. It would also cause tremendous confusion, and would violate 2 of the 3 disambiguation principles:

"Naming articles in such a way that each has a unique title. For example, three of the articles dealing with topics ordinarily called "Mercury" are titled Mercury (planet), Mercury (element), and Mercury (mythology)."

"Ensuring that a reader who searches for a topic using a particular term can get to the information on that topic quickly and easily, whichever of the possible topics it might be" (emphasis mine)

I can maybe see a case for a disambiguation page. Delectopierre (talk) 09:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Keep the year in the title as it quickly leads readers to the right article. Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:27, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No. People are going to look for "Palisades Fire", not "Palisades Fire (2025)". This is the fire that destroyed celebrity houses and will go on to be the most destructive ever. It's not recentism because these lasting impacts are permanent and will forever cement this fire in readers' memories.--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:30, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think that when people look for "Palisades Fire", they'll identify "Palisades Fire (2025)" as being the correct article to look at. It is true, though, that this is very likely the fire people will be searching for when looking for "Palisades Fire." Yes, now that it's occurring, but also because of the massive scale of destruction as you stated.

I don't see an issue either way; but I would lean on keeping the date for the sake of consistency and because, while this is by far the more significant event, this is one of two Palisade Fires. Christopher Arturo Aragón Vides (talk) 10:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

+1. SdHb (talk) 10:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's not in the top 20 most destructive California fires by any metric. http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2022/ph240/chunduru1/docs/calfire-24oct22.pdf Delectopierre (talk) 10:40, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

...because this one's damage has not been computed, and the preliminary JPMorgan Chase estimate of $10 billion is likely a gross underestimate? Let's do just a little bit of math. Conservatively a thousand structures destroyed. Conservatively ten million per structure (remember, the outliers will skew it above the mode and median). That's ten billion right there. That slide conflates size with destructiveness, the latter of which is always measured by monetary damage and not size. The final destroyed structure count will likely be an order of magnitude greater. Even if we go by number of structures destroyed, this fire still grossly beats the 2021 one and, again, most importantly, no reader today will be looking for the 2021 fire, and hardly anyone will be in the future.--Jasper Deng (talk) 11:59, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed 2pacgoodlife (talk) 16:38, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

ten million per structure how? isn't that the land value, primarily? 82.19.160.128 (talk) 17:42, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I was thinking the same thing. This has become the new WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. For an example of this on another page, see Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Katrina (1981). Put a WP:HATNOTE on this page to Palisades Fire (2021). –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:08, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Without the year, I nor anyone would not be aware of any previous Palisades fire. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 17:04, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@KyuuA4: That is what the hatnote is for. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:13, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support as primary topic, other Palisades fires can be linked via hatnote. jengod (talk) 17:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support per PRIMARYTOPIC. Wildfireupdateman :) (talk) 17:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support This is a clear primary topic. A hatnote will suffice for the other, much less impactful fire. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]