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[[:Palestinian genocide accusation]] → {{no redirect|Palestinian genocide}} – Given the movement of [[Gaza genocide]] to that title, the current title here has become incongruously inconsistent. How can the parent of a child topic that is not couched in the language of "accusation" be couched in that language? It should be obvious than it should not. More generally, it has become apparent that the language of "accusation" is generally inappropriate. This is not only per [[MOS:ACCUSED]] (which outlines how the language of accusation is problematic in its presumptive deployment of doubt (presumably ultimately as a corollary of [[WP:NPOV]])), but also per consistency with similar titles on similar subjects. There are many pages on the topics of presumed or suspected (but not legally ruled on) genocides -- this is in fact the majority of them -- but no other genocide topic on Wikipedia, regardless of how speculative it is, is couched as a "genocide accusation". See the [https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?search=%22genocide+accusation%22&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1 search results]. Likewise, the phrase "Palestinian genocide accusation" is [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22Palestinian+genocide+accusation%22&btnG= all but unknown to scholarship], in stark contrast to "Palestinian genocide", which is a [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22Palestinian+genocide%22&btnG= common and widely used phrase], including in titular form, such as in the 2013 [https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2339254 The Palestinian Genocide by Israel] by the eminent [[Francis Boyle]]. In the [[Talk:Palestinian_genocide_accusation/Archive_1#Requested_move_24_October_2023|previous move discussion]], I somewhat rallied support around the current title, but that was in October last year, before much of the subsequent discussion around developments in Gaza. It seemed sensible at the time, but that was then, and this is now. Events have moved on significantly since then, not least with the ICJ case and provisional measures -- and hence the [[Gaza genocide]] move. As this page covers the overarching legal and scholarly topic of Palestinian genocide, the weight of both everything that went into the [[Talk:Gaza_genocide/Archive_2#Requested_move_3_May_2024|Gaza genocide RM discussion]], and everything that precedes it in Palestinian history, including the Nakba and all subsequent Israeli policies and actions that have been discussed as conceivably genocidal by legal and academic experts, is under consideration. Given that this page has a significantly grander scope than its child, its title cannot reasonably contain greater doubt than that of its child. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 12:29, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
[[:Palestinian genocide accusation]] → {{no redirect|Palestinian genocide}} – Given the movement of [[Gaza genocide]] to that title, the current title here has become incongruously inconsistent. How can the parent of a child topic that is not couched in the language of "accusation" be couched in that language? It should be obvious than it should not. More generally, it has become apparent that the language of "accusation" is generally inappropriate. This is not only per [[MOS:ACCUSED]] (which outlines how the language of accusation is problematic in its presumptive deployment of doubt (presumably ultimately as a corollary of [[WP:NPOV]])), but also per consistency with similar titles on similar subjects. There are many pages on the topics of presumed or suspected (but not legally ruled on) genocides -- this is in fact the majority of them -- but no other genocide topic on Wikipedia, regardless of how speculative it is, is couched as a "genocide accusation". See the [https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?search=%22genocide+accusation%22&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1 search results]. Likewise, the phrase "Palestinian genocide accusation" is [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22Palestinian+genocide+accusation%22&btnG= all but unknown to scholarship], in stark contrast to "Palestinian genocide", which is a [https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22Palestinian+genocide%22&btnG= common and widely used phrase], including in titular form, such as in the 2013 [https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2339254 The Palestinian Genocide by Israel] by the eminent [[Francis Boyle]]. In the [[Talk:Palestinian_genocide_accusation/Archive_1#Requested_move_24_October_2023|previous move discussion]], I somewhat rallied support around the current title, but that was in October last year, before much of the subsequent discussion around developments in Gaza. It seemed sensible at the time, but that was then, and this is now. Events have moved on significantly since then, not least with the ICJ case and provisional measures -- and hence the [[Gaza genocide]] move. As this page covers the overarching legal and scholarly topic of Palestinian genocide, the weight of both everything that went into the [[Talk:Gaza_genocide/Archive_2#Requested_move_3_May_2024|Gaza genocide RM discussion]], and everything that precedes it in Palestinian history, including the Nakba and all subsequent Israeli policies and actions that have been discussed as conceivably genocidal by legal and academic experts, is under consideration. Given that this page has a significantly grander scope than its child, its title cannot reasonably contain greater doubt than that of its child. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 12:29, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. "Accusation" implies doubt, and considering the recent move of the child article to a more straightforward title, this one is inconsistent. Given the recent ICJ developments, "Palestinian genocide" more accurately reflects the scope of this topic and is also a term widely used in scholarly and legal contexts. - [[User:Ïvana|Ïvana]] ([[User talk:Ïvana|talk]]) 15:13, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:13, 21 July 2024


Infobox

I am proposing an updated version of the info box. Given this page’s importance and the fact that these pages – Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel and Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russo-Ukrainian War – both have infoboxes, I felt it was important to do so. I have fixed/addresssed many earlier raised concerns:

  • “It also appears to present as fact events/judgements/motives which are highly contested.”: I don’t believe so, but feel free to delete any or reorder them. They are not sourced on this page (Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russo-Ukrainian War) and thus have no need to be here
  • “Who decides what the motives are for a series of unproven accusations?”: Again, feel free to change or delete them. I thought these would be standard etc.
  • “Islamophobia isn't generally regarded as a motive here”: this I disagree with. It may not be the main motive, but it is a secondary one.

Alternatively, I would be happy to remove the motives section altogether and keep the rest. By the way, good figures over a long period are very hard to find. If you can, please insert any relevant info there.

Here are some of my improvements:

  • As with the accepted formula on this page, I have added many attack types. Better, they are sourced.
Palestine genocide allegations
Part of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Graffiti in Hebron calling for the gassing of Arabs, alongside a tag for the terrorist group the Jewish Defense League
LocationState of Palestine and Israel
Date1948 – present
TargetPalestinians
Attack type
Allegations of usage of: Collective punishment,[1][2][3] airstrikes (including in refugee camps),[4][5][6] famine,[7][8][9] forced displacement (ethnic cleansing),[10][11][12][13][14][15] looting,[16][17][18] psychological warfare,[19][20][21] rape and sexual violence,[22][23][24] deliberate and systematic infliction of life-threatening conditions by military sieges,[25][26][27][28][29][30] others
Deaths
  • Estimated 10,000+ killed before January 1 2008
  • 6,735 Palestinians killed from January 1 2008 to October 6 2023[31]
  • 22,313+ killed since 7 October 2023[A]
Victims
  • Almost 2 million people displaced within the Gaza Strip from 7 October 2023 to 19 December 2023[33]
  • 1,900,000 internally displaced persons in the Gaza Strip since 7 October 2023[34]
MotiveAllegations of: Anti-Palestinianism, Anti-Arab racism, desire to expand into the West Bank (including the Jordan Valley), Islamophobia, Zionism, settler colonialism
Accused Israel

Please work constructively and add or remove what you think if you have consensus. If little feedback or amendment is given, I will add this box to the page.

Thank you, From Scientelensia (talk) 17:34, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this page needs an infobox, tbh. Selfstudier (talk) 17:45, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you think that? I think it provides clarity and information for new viewers and upgrades the status of the article. Scientelensia (talk) 17:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The question is why do we need one, we managed perfectly well without one till now. It is not for WP editors to make a "case" for genocide via infobox, the accusation is of course disputed and none of that is in the infobox. Selfstudier (talk) 17:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My thoughts for reasons:
  • Improves information, makes it more readily accessible without having to trawl through a page.
  • Provides a summation of the allegations of the article.
  • Other respected articles of the same nature use infoboxes for these reasons
  • (As a lesser point, the page looks good.)
Scientelensia (talk) 18:50, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I made some tweaks to the infobox to try and improve it, but I'm still not really liking the idea of an infobox on this article (or infoboxes on the other articles you mentioned for that matter). An infobox is for giving readers at-a-glance quick facts about the topic. For a topic like this, I don't think there are any quick facts that can be summed up into short infobox parameters. Almost every parameter is "unsure/needs explanation," e.g. when it started, where it happened, who was targeted, how many died, the methods (attack type), motives, and who's responsible (it's not just Israel). This infobox kind of concatenates everything from everywhere... but not everyone who says there is a genocide of Gazans going on since Oct 7 also thinks that this genocide began in 1948 or includes anyone in the West Bank or in Israel. Similarly, not everyone who says that the 1948 Nakba was a genocide thinks that the 2nd intifada was part of that genocide. One thing I agree with is the title: it should be "Palestinian genocide accusations" because there are more than one accusation of more than one genocide (or of a genocide with more than one set of boundaries or features). It's all very... complex. Levivich (talk) 18:32, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hard to disagree. Removing the infobox sounds wise. — kashmīrī TALK 18:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
True, thanks for engaging.
  • Just to say that this page is specifically accusations since 1948. It is difficult, but the if what you say is correct (“not everyone who says that the 1948 Nakba was a genocide thinks that the 2nd intifada was part of that genocide”) it does not mean that the date of this uprising did not host other events which could be listed under genocide. Hope I’m explaining myself well. The page for “a genocide of Gazans going on since Oct 7” is different: Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza.
  • Also, I made some important edits, emphasising that these are only allegations. Do you think it is appropriate now? What would you change?
  • If others are complicit, you could always add a complicit section?
  • As for the stats, they are hard to find especially before 2000. Maybe more extensive research is needed.
Scientelensia (talk) 18:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What do you think about the infobox at The Holocaust, and using an infobox like that one here? (So, radically shorter.) Levivich (talk) 21:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There the essential facts are well known and not (usually) disputed so it sort of works. Still think here it is just too...messy...for it to work. Selfstudier (talk) 22:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes potentially, or we could simply remove the motives section here. In any case, I believe an infobox is the right way to go. Scientelensia (talk) 17:02, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Scientelensia: Have you considered forking {{infobox civilian attack}} and creating {{infobox alleged genocide}}, perhaps with more appropriate parameters and parameter labels? Because as much as I don't like it on several levels, Wikipedia has multiple articles about alleged genocides, maybe they'd all benefit from a tailored infobox.
I should say at the outset that I don't necessarily support the creation of such an infobox or the use of infoboxes on any alleged genocide articles. I'm not convinced that the infoboxes are more informative than (unintentionally) misleading. But forking is an idea.
One example of an inherent problem with an alleged genocide infobox is that while genocide is alleged, often (almost always?) the underlying facts are not alleged, they're established. For example, in this case, it's not alleged that tens of thousands of Palestinians have been killed, or millions displaced, or that there have been airstrikes, etc., all of these individual events are undisputed. What's disputed, or alleged, is that these events together are properly labeled "genocide." So how can an infobox convey that the details are proven, it's the overall characterization that is "alleged"? Without misleading the reader into thinking that either: (a) it's a genocide and Wikipedia is saying so, or (b) the underlying facts are alleged/disputed/uncertain.
But maybe there's a way to do this? Also it's possible that other editors will think forking the infobox is a terrible idea (I note there is no {{infobox genocide}}). Idk. Levivich (talk) 04:44, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An interesting and good idea. Scientelensia (talk) 15:36, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if I have time right now yet I understand you what you are saying. Scientelensia (talk) 15:41, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An interesting idea. I'd even go for {{Infobox genocide}}, with a parameter "Alleged" (Yes/No), alternatively {{Infobox mass atrocity}} with "Genocide" a value of "Type", etc. — kashmīrī TALK 17:06, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Levivich as well. Infoboxes are best for summarizing data in a compact format, and that seems very difficult to do in this case without losing qualifications or nuances which are important for NPOV.
I think the suggested infobox is a reasonable attempt, trying to balance nuance with compactness, but it ends up having to compromise on both somewhat.
I think the goal of making key information more apparent can be accomplished in other ways, like trimming the lead paragraphs, moving some less important details to sections below. XDanielx (talk) 18:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A well reasoned solution. Scientelensia (talk) 20:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

  1. ^ Per the Gaza Health Ministry and Government Information Office.[32]
Sources

  1. ^ "Israel/OPT: Israel must lift illegal and inhumane blockade on Gaza as power plant runs out of fuel". Amnesty International. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  2. ^ "UN chief reiterates Gaza ceasefire call, condemns 'collective punishment' of Palestinians". United Nations. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  3. ^ "Home Demolition as Collective Punishment Palestinians". B’TSELEM. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  4. ^ "Overnight Israeli airstrikes kill scores in Gaza as fears grow of push into Rafah". The Guardian. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  5. ^ "Gaza: UN experts decry bombing of hospitals and schools as crimes against humanity, call for prevention of genocide". Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  6. ^ "Israel Gaza war: Hamas says 70 killed in Israeli air strike on camp". BBC News. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  7. ^ "The UN says there's 'full-blown famine' in northern Gaza". Public Broadcasting Service (PBS). Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  8. ^ "'Man-made famine' charge against Israel is backed by mounting body of evidence". The Guardian. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  9. ^ "Jeremy Bowen: Israel denies famine looms in Gaza, but evidence is overwhelming". BBC News. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  10. ^ "Forcible transfer of isolated Palestinian communities and families in Area C under cover of Gaza fighting". B’TSELEM. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  11. ^ "Coercive environments: Israel's Forcible Transfer of Palestinians in the Occupied Territory" (PDF). Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  12. ^ "'War crime': Israel forcibly transfers Palestinian village". Al Jazeera. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  13. ^ "Israel working to expel civilian population of Gaza, UN expert warns". Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  14. ^ Abu-Laban & Bakan 2022, p. 511, "over 80 per cent"; Pappe 2022, p. 128, "Three-quarters of a million Palestinians ... almost 90 per cent"; Khalidi 2020, p. 60, "Some 80 percent ... At least 720,000 ..."; Slater 2020, pp. 81 ("about 750,000"), 83 ("over 80 percent"), and 350 ("It is no longer a matter of serious dispute that in the 1947–48 period—beginning well before the Arab invasion in May 1948—some 700,000 to 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from or fled their villages and homes in Israel in fear of their lives—an entirely justifiable fear, in light of massacres carried out by Zionist forces."); Shenhav 2019, p. 49, "750,000"; Bashir & Goldberg 2018, p. 7, "some 750,000"; Bishara 2017, pp. 138 ("expelled close to 750,000") and 148 n. 21 ("number of the refugees displaced ranged between 700,000 and 900,000"; Bäuml 2017, p. 105, "approximately 750,000"; Cohen 2017, p. 87, "approximately 700,000 ... between half a million and a million"; Manna 2013, pp. 93 ("approximately 750,000") and 99 n. 12 ("Recently, both Palestinian and Israeli scholars seem to agree on this estimate of 700,000–750,000 refugees."); Masalha 2012, pp. 2, "about 90 per cent ... 750,000 refugees"; Wolfe 2012, p. 133, "some three quarters of a million"; Davis 2011, pp. 7 ("more than 750,000") and 237 n. 21 ("Most scholars generally agree with the UN number, which it was somewhere in the vicinity of 750,000"); Lentin 2010, pp. 6 ("at least 80 per cent") and 7 ("more than 700,000"); Ghanim 2009, p. 25, "Around 750,000-900,000"; Kimmerling 2008, p. 280, "700,000 to 900,000"; Morris 2008, p. 407, "some seven hundred thousand"; Sa'di 2007, pp. 297, "at least 780,000 ... more than 80 percent"
  15. ^ "Israel's Occupation: 50 Years of Dispossession". Amnesty International. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  16. ^ Sabbagh-Khoury 2023, pp. 36, 44, 163, 169–177, 183, 186–189, 226–236, 241, 247–251, 256, 265; Sayigh 2023, pp. 281–282; Manna 2022, pp. 49, 83, 152, 169–170, 174–176, 182, 201, 287 n. 2, 316 n. 26; Khalidi 2020, pp. 250 n. 4 and 287 n. 58; Shenhav 2019, p. 49; Confino 2018, pp. 141–143; Masalha 2018, p. 185; Nashef 2018, pp. 95, 143 n. 4, 178–179, and 180 n.8; Lustick & Berkman 2017, p. 41; Rouhana & Sabbagh-Khoury 2017, pp. 396 n. 6 and 413; Natour 2016, p. 94; Fierke 2014, p. 805 n. 17; Masalha 2012, pp. 16, 135–147; Lentin 2010, pp. 31, 70, and 84; Ram 2009, p. 371; Morris 2008, pp. 154–155, 163, and 281; Abu-Lughod 2007, p. 89; Pappe 2006, pp. 91–95, 100, 109, 125, 147, 167–169, 190, 200, 204–211
  17. ^ "How Israeli soldiers are engaged in widespread looting in Gaza". The New Arab. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  18. ^ "'Psychological warfare': Israeli troops go on looting and vandalism spree across Gaza". Middle East Eye. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  19. ^ Hasian Jr. 2020, pp. 101 ("Israeli-sponsored radio messages that were used to 'wage psychological warfare'") and 103 ("Walid Khalidi, who wrote some of the first Palestinian summaries of what happened during the fall of Haifa in 1959, has recently revisited these issues and concluded that the British colluded with the Haganah in ways that made sure that the use of “psychological warfare tactics” would be used in ruthless ways so that the Plan Dalet could be carried out against unarmed civilians who needed to be moved out of these lands."); Slater 2020, p. 81; Cohen 2017, p. 79; Masalha 2012, pp. 2 and 68, "From the territory occupied by the Israelis in 1948, about 90 per cent of the Palestinians were driven out — many by psychological warfare and/or military pressure and a very large number at gunpoint."; Lentin 2010, p. 109; Shlaim 2009, p. 55, "Morris describes the flight of the Palestinians wave after wave, town by town, and village by village. He gives numerous specific examples of psychological warfare, of intimidation, of expulsion by force and of atrocities committed by the armed forces of the infant Jewish state."; Morris 2008, pp. 160 ("To reinforce this “whispering,” or psychological warfare, campaign, Allon’s men distributed fliers, advising those who wished to avoid harm to leave “with their women and children.”") and 332 ("employing 'psychological warfare by means of flyers and ‘treatment’ of civilian inhabitants'"); Sa'di 2007, p. 308, "Morris’s (2004a) research confirms what Palestinians have argued all along; he shows definitively that active expulsion by the Jewish forces, the flight of civilians from the battle zones following the attacks of Jewish forces, psychological warfare, and fear of atrocities and random killing by the advancing Jewish forces were the main causes for the Palestinian refugee problem."; Pappe 2006, pp. 156 ("The UN 'peace' plan had resulted in people being intimidated and terrorised by psychological warfare, heavy shelling of civilian populations, expulsions, seeing relatives being executed, and wives and daughters abused, robbed and in several cases, raped."), 197 ("... from the Chief of Staff, Yigael Yadin: 'Your preparations should include psychological warfare and "treatment" (tipul) of citizens as an integral part of the operation.'"), and 278 n. 27 ("A range of strategies that could only be described as psychological warfare was used by the Jewish forces to terrorize and demoralize the Arab population in a deliberate attempt to provoke a mass exodus. Radio broadcasts in Arabic warned of traitors in the Arabs' midst, describing the Palestinians as having been deserted by their leaders, and accusing Arab militias of committing crimes against Arab civilians. They also spread fears of disease. Another, less subtle, tactic involved the use of loudspeaker trucks. These would be used in the villages and towns to urge the Palestinians to flee before they were all killed, to warn that the Jews were using poison gas and atomic weapons, or to play recorded 'horror sounds' - shrieking and moaning, the wail of sirens, and the clang of fire-alarm bells."); Morris 2004, pp. 129, 168-169 ("Jewish tactics in the battle were designed to stun and quickly overpower opposition; demoralisation was a primary aim. It was deemed just as important to the outcome as the physical destruction of the Arab units. The mortar barrages and the psychological warfare broadcasts and announcements, and the tactics employed by the infantry companies, advancing from house to house, were all geared to this goal. The orders of Carmeli’s 22nd Battalion were ‘to kill every [adult male] Arab encountered’ and to set alight with firebombs ‘all objectives that can be set alight. I am sending you posters in Arabic; disperse on route.’"), 230, 246, 250, 252, 468 ("He also ordered the launching of ‘psychological warfare operations’ and instructed the units ‘to deal with the civilian [populations]’. Yadin did not elaborate but presumably the intention was to frighten civilian communities into flight."), 522 (Israel agreed that 'those of the civilian population who may wish to remain in Al Faluja and ‘Iraq al Manshiya are to be permitted to do so ...' But within days Israel went back on its word. Southern Front’s soldiers mounted a short, sharp, well-orchestrated campaign of low-key violence and psychological warfare designed to intimidate the inhabitants into flight. According to one villager’s recollection, the Jews ‘created a situation of terror, entered the houses and beat the people with rifle butts’.128 Contemporary United Nations and Quakers documents support this description. The UN Mediator, Ralph Bunche, quoting UN observers on the spot, complained that ‘Arab civilians . . . at Al Faluja have been beaten and robbed by Israeli soldiers and . . . there have been some cases of attempted rape’."), and 591 ("If Jewish attack directly and indirectly triggered most of the exodus up to June 1948, a small but significant proportion was due to direct expulsion orders and to psychological warfare ploys (‘whispering propaganda’) designed to intimidate people into flight."); Masalha 2003, pp. 26–27
  20. ^ "'Israel's psychological operation in Gaza". Al Jazeera. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  21. ^ "Israel's Gaza war adds psychological operations". Associated Press via NBC News. 2009-01-11. Retrieved 2009-02-19.
  22. ^ Sabbagh-Khoury 2023, pp. 185–186; Sayigh 2023, p. 282; Manna 2022, pp. 75-77 ("[p. 75] The Israeli army carried out killings (including massacres), pillaged, and raped in a number of border villages, including Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Hula, and Sa‘sa‘, on the day the villages were occupied or shortly thereafter."), 202, and 301 nn. 79-81 ("[n. 79] It seems likely that cases of rape during and after the 1948 war were underreported in the historical literature. With time, it becomes more difficult to investigate those events."); Hasian Jr. 2020, p. 84, "Palestinian researchers, archivists, interviewers, and others who help chronicle these events now have transcontinental allies who collect oral histories that are filled with tales of the rape of women and the killing of innocent children during the involuntary transfers of the 1940s."; Natour 2016, p. 94; Khoury 2012, p. 263, "Many stories of massacres, rape, and expulsion are known, and many other stories are still to be revealed: Tantura, Safsaf, Ein al-Zeitun, Sa’sa’, Sha’ab, Kabri, Abou Shousha, Ai’laboun, and so on."; Masalha 2012, pp. 82–84, "[p. 82] The use of rape and other forms of sexual violence by Jewish forces in 1948 as weapons of war and instruments of ethnic cleansing has yet to be studied. In 1948 the rape of Arab women and girls was not a rare or isolated act committed by individual forces, but rather was used deliberately as an instrument to terrorise the civilian population and push people into fleeing their homes."; Knopf-Newman 2011, p. 183; Lentin 2010, p. 31; Ram 2009, p. 373; Morris 2008, pp. 406–407, "The Israelis’ collective memory of fighters characterized by 'purity of arms' is also undermined by the evidence of rapes committed in conquered towns and villages. About a dozen cases—in Jaffa, Acre, and so on—are reported in the available contemporary documentation and, given Arab diffidence about reporting such incidents and the (understandable) silence of the perpetrators, and IDFA censorship of many documents, more, and perhaps many more, cases probably occurred. Arabs appear to have committed few acts of rape."; Humphries & Khalili 2007, pp. 209, 211-213 ("[p. 211-212] As Benny Morris writes, the regular and irregular military forces of the Yishuv had employed rape in 'several dozen cases' (Morris 2004a: 592) and the news of the rape, though subsequently silenced by both perpetrators and victims, spread as quickly as the news of massacres, aided by the fear and horror of the Palestinians and the 'whispering campaign' of the Yishuv military commanders ... these rapes were one of the more devastating components of Hagana assaults and perhaps the primary explanation behind the decision of many of the refugees to flee."), and 223-226; Sa'di 2007, pp. 293 ("On numerous occasions in the execution of Plan D, the Zionist forces expelled people from their towns and villages, committed rape and other acts of violence, massacred civilians, and executed prisoners of war."), 299-300 ("Morris (2004a) reports that there were 'about a dozen' cases of documented rape, often followed by murder. As he notes, 'We have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were reported . . . are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the iceberg' (Morris, 2004b: 39)."), and 303-304; Slyomovics 2007, pp. 31 ("Morris documents statistics of a dozen cases of rapes and twenty-four instances of massacres as supporting evidence for a pattern") and 33-38 ("[p. 37] It has been a major achievement by historians of 1948 that the conditions and numbers of actual rape and civilian massacre of the Palestinian population are finally recognized."); Pappe 2006, pp. 90, 132, 156, 184, 196, and 208-211 ("[p. 209] David Ben-Gurion seems to have been informed about each case and entered them into his diary. Every few days he has a sub-section: 'Rape Cases'."); Schulz 2003, pp. 28 and 136 ("According to [Kitty] Warnock [Land Before Honor: Palestinian Women in the Occupied Territories, Monthly Review Press 1990], honour was an ingredient in the exodus as fear and concern to save women from being raped was a reason for flight.")
  23. ^ "Israeli soldiers accused of raping 11-year-old". The Guardian. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  24. ^ "Israel/oPt: UN experts appalled by reported human rights violations against Palestinian women and girls". Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  25. ^ "Oxfam accuses Israel of 'deliberately' blocking aid to famine-stalked Gaza". Al Jazeera. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  26. ^ "'Insidious campaign' by Israel is denying lifesaving aid to Gaza says UNRWA chief". United Nations. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  27. ^ "Israel is deliberately starving Palestinians, UN rights expert says". The Guardian. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  28. ^ "In 2022, too, Israel prevented thousands of Palestinians in need of medical care from leaving Gaza for treatment". B’TSELEM. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  29. ^ "Israel: Record-Low in Gaza Medical Permits". Human Rights Watch. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  30. ^ "Aid groups urge attacks on healthcare centres to stop – as it happened". The Guardian. Retrieved 7 May 2024.
  31. ^ "Data on casualties". United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. Archived from the original on 20 November 2023. Retrieved 14 October 2023.
  32. ^ "Health Ministry In Hamas-run Gaza Says War Death Toll Hits 22,313". Barron's. 3 January 2024. Retrieved 3 January 2024.
  33. ^ Graham-Harrison, Emma; Borger, Julian (19 December 2023). "Palestinian death toll in Gaza nears 20,000 with nearly 2 million people displaced". Archived from the original on 24 December 2023. Retrieved 25 December 2023.
  34. ^ "Israel: Starvation Used as Weapon of War in Gaza". Human Rights Watch. Retrieved 4 January 2024.

title change

we recently changed title 'Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza' to gaza genocide should this article name also be changed? Gsgdd (talk) 23:30, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good question, idk. Sourcing for Gaza genocide is straightforward to locate, is that the case for Palestine/Palestinian tho? Selfstudier (talk) 11:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gaza genocide is poorly ranked in search result with only 400 views last 30 days. But with recent name change - i think it will start to improve. However this page has around 30k views. Im about keeping title simple, something like (Palestinian genocide). People will know it is currently accusation if they read opening para. And in future - if court rule against israel - we can simply change body and title can remain the same. Gsgdd (talk) 21:26, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not that concerned with internal search results for main articles, just the usual policies and guidelines discussion as were had at Gaza genocide article, we need (lots of) sources discussing a Palestinian genocide (I know that Gaza is also Palestine, the artificial separation remains a constant problem), I think we can probably do that but we still have to deal with POVNAME argument because there are Palestinians in Israel and WB as well, it's not so straightforward. Idk, to tell the truth, I would have to go looking to see what sourcing is available and I haven't had time to do that myself. It's possible that "persecution" has better sourcing. Selfstudier (talk) 21:35, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that editors will support the idea of two genocides being carried out by Israel. I'd wait for now. The end arrangements may depend on the outcome of the ICJ and ICC cases (and thus on sources) – it's possible that this article will be eventually renamed to "Palestinian genocide" while Gaza genocide will either be merged and redirected into this one or will be refocused to war crimes in Gaza. — kashmīrī TALK 07:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Estimate of future deaths

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


@Genabab: re the estimate you added, I'm not necessarily against including this, but we should be cautious for a few reasons

  • Lancet lists this as "Correspondence", are essentially letters from readers. See here (emphasis theirs). Our readers’ reflections on content published in the Lancet journals or on other topics of general interest to our readers. These letters are not normally externally peer reviewed. The authors do have some credentials, so this isn't a dealbreaker, just more like a WP:SPS.
  • It's a projection of future deaths, so we should make that clear.
  • I feel "statistical estimate" is making this sound more rigorous than it is - they just picked a round-number multiple (four) that they felt would be not implausible for this conflict.
  • To corroborate the plausibility of the multiple, they seem to cite an article titled Global burden of armed conflict, which I can't find. They provide a URL which points to a report titled World Drug Report, so maybe it's that? That report seems to discuss some related ideas of extrapolation based on multiples, but in the context of heroin addicts.

Again not necessarily against including it, but I think it should be framed pretty differently if we do. — xDanielx T/C\R 02:14, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I expanded the line and the cite, and did the same at a few other articles (check my contribs). Feel free to massage it further. Levivich (talk) 04:51, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I might make some additional changes but will hold off a bit to see other input. — xDanielx T/C\R 06:27, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also think that this information should be included, given that only the identifiable bodies directly killed by assaults from Israeli forces have been included in the listed statistics here thus far, not the ones hidden under the rubble of collapsed buildings or killed by starvation or diseases as a result from this conflict. David A (talk) 04:57, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, it was clearly stated that the 4x number was a conservative estimate. The maximum was 15x, which would mean over 570,000 total deaths of mainly innocent women and children. Should that be mentioned as well? David A (talk) 05:33, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In terms of what the source says directly, they do say conservative but also say not implausible, which I think reflects the high uncertainty with such difficult projections. Maybe we should include both?
My take (which is admittedly less relevant) is that something close to 15x probably isn't plausible here, since that would be at least 25% of the population, maybe 50%+ if direct deaths rise. The cases with high multiples, like DRC (~10x), seem to involve smaller proportions of the population, and also parts of the world that are more ignored by the West. — xDanielx T/C\R 06:04, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but given the systematic prevention of food deliveries caused by the Israeli military and settler groups, combined with complete destruction of sanitation, systematic targeting of medical personel and rescue workers, and so onwards, wouldn't the situation rationally be considerably worse than usual in terms of indirect deaths? David A (talk) 06:11, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you have some valid points and it's probably fine to say conservative. Not sure about a number like 570k since we wouldn't have a source for it (maybe stil admissible based on WP:CALC but feels iffy to me), but we could mention the 3-15x range if that works?
I think for balance it would also be good to somehow highlight that these are very rough projections, with a lot of assumptions (that Gaza is comparable to other conflicts, that GHM isn't already counting indirect deaths, etc) and uncertainty. — xDanielx T/C\R 06:35, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that mentioning the 3x to 15x range seems reasonable, as long as we also mention that the 4x multiple was used for the currently listed estimate. David A (talk) 07:05, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I found what the authors meant to cite to back the multiples they mention: The Global Burden of Armed Violence, chapter 2. It says In the majority of conflicts since the early 1990s for which good data is available, the burden of indirect deaths was between three and 15 times the number of direct deaths, and A reasonable average estimate would be a ratio of four indirect deaths to one direct death in contemporary conflicts. — xDanielx T/C\R 05:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the information. David A (talk) 05:45, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What if we cited this report as the main source discussing indirect deaths, and briefly mentioned the Lancet correspondence just for the 186k figure? This report just seems much more authoritative and rigorous. I think this could lead to a stronger, more verifiable statement, otherwise readers who check the Lancet source might get the impression that numbers were pulled out of a hat. — xDanielx T/C\R 06:12, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that we should use both sources in combination for stronger verification purposes. Mainly using the main source that the Lancet study used for its total casualties estimations does not directly mention the current situation in Palestine as far as I am aware. Meaning, please do not remove any current information, but feel free to add a reference and the 570,000 upper maximum number, in my personal view. David A (talk) 06:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I might have missed the part which implies that it is predictive. Though, when I first read it I interpreted it as indirect deaths up to that point (which would make sense given they're using a figure of how many people died up until recently).
That's not to say there's no grounds for interpreting it in that way, and I think there is good reason to think about including the "future" part Genabab (talk) 10:23, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Genabab: You missed it because at no point does the report say that the 186k figure is a projection.
Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death to the 37 396 deaths reported, it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186 000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza. Using the 2022 Gaza Strip population estimate of 2 375 259, this would translate to 7·9% of the total population in the Gaza Strip. A report from Feb 7, 2024, at the time when the direct death toll was 28 000, estimated that without a ceasefire there would be between 58 260 deaths (without an epidemic or escalation) and 85 750 deaths (if both occurred) by Aug 6, 2024.
This is simple enough to interpret. For the current conflict in Gaza, a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death is applied (which gives us the 186k figure). These are not future projections but rather an estimate of the impact to date. The future projections mentioned are from a February report and are based on a different context and point in time. - Ïvana (talk) 14:51, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That paragraph is a bit ambiguous, but I think the context from the two preceding sentences make it clear they're talking about a projection of future indirect deaths (or maybe both, past + future): Even if the conflict ends immediately, there will continue to be many indirect deaths in the coming months and years from causes such as reproductive, communicable, and non-communicable diseases. The total death toll is expected to be large given [...]
Besides, interpreting it as 186k past deaths would make the claim quite extraordinary. GHM must have a reasonable estimate of total excess (direct + indirect) deaths, which is simply total deaths minus expected deaths (based on pre-conflict data). If that number was anything close to 186k, surely GHM would have reported it and it would be all over the news. — xDanielx T/C\R 17:27, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please continue this discussion at Talk:Israel–Hamas_war#Indirect_casualties_from_the_Lancet_study where this has been copied. Selfstudier (talk) 19:02, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Understood, should we close these other threads then? — xDanielx T/C\R 19:23, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 21 July 2024

Palestinian genocide accusationPalestinian genocide – Given the movement of Gaza genocide to that title, the current title here has become incongruously inconsistent. How can the parent of a child topic that is not couched in the language of "accusation" be couched in that language? It should be obvious than it should not. More generally, it has become apparent that the language of "accusation" is generally inappropriate. This is not only per MOS:ACCUSED (which outlines how the language of accusation is problematic in its presumptive deployment of doubt (presumably ultimately as a corollary of WP:NPOV)), but also per consistency with similar titles on similar subjects. There are many pages on the topics of presumed or suspected (but not legally ruled on) genocides -- this is in fact the majority of them -- but no other genocide topic on Wikipedia, regardless of how speculative it is, is couched as a "genocide accusation". See the search results. Likewise, the phrase "Palestinian genocide accusation" is all but unknown to scholarship, in stark contrast to "Palestinian genocide", which is a common and widely used phrase, including in titular form, such as in the 2013 The Palestinian Genocide by Israel by the eminent Francis Boyle. In the previous move discussion, I somewhat rallied support around the current title, but that was in October last year, before much of the subsequent discussion around developments in Gaza. It seemed sensible at the time, but that was then, and this is now. Events have moved on significantly since then, not least with the ICJ case and provisional measures -- and hence the Gaza genocide move. As this page covers the overarching legal and scholarly topic of Palestinian genocide, the weight of both everything that went into the Gaza genocide RM discussion, and everything that precedes it in Palestinian history, including the Nakba and all subsequent Israeli policies and actions that have been discussed as conceivably genocidal by legal and academic experts, is under consideration. Given that this page has a significantly grander scope than its child, its title cannot reasonably contain greater doubt than that of its child. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:29, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support per nom. "Accusation" implies doubt, and considering the recent move of the child article to a more straightforward title, this one is inconsistent. Given the recent ICJ developments, "Palestinian genocide" more accurately reflects the scope of this topic and is also a term widely used in scholarly and legal contexts. - Ïvana (talk) 15:13, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]