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Talk:List of state leaders in 2016#RfC: Inclusion of Palestine as a sub state of Israel

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:List of state leaders in 2016#RfC: Inclusion of Palestine as a sub state of Israel. Could you please give your opinion on whether or not Palestine should be considered a separate sovereign entity from Israel? Many thanks Spirit Ethanol (talk) 09:18, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

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Removed archives and added cbignore. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 21:44, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Adding the exact 'Demographics' category off State of Palestine

  • Same people, same nation.
  • One article has that important category to define its people, while the other doesn't.
This can be easily fixed with the help of the glorious Ctrl+c/Ctrl+v.
Sources, links and everything else you need is already mentioned there.
Yes/No?109.65.217.133 (talk) 12:41, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
No. PNA has no 'demographics' it is an authority/government. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 20:52, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
Yes. It is a government of their people. There is not one single government on earth with no citizens. We've checked. 79.176.90.45 (talk) 20:55, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
Government/authority pages are about governments not constituents. Why doesn't Government of Japan contain demographics? Spirit Ethanol (talk) 21:31, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
The Palestinian Authority is a political entity with territory and citizens. They have demographics, although I don't think those are too important in this article.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:51, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict) No. Any demographics section would need to be the demographics of the members of the government itself to be part of the government article. It would also need to be free of copyright violations. Scr★pIronIV 21:54, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
@ScrapIronIV: What material is a copy vio of what? The only locations that I have found that repeat the material are wiki mirrors. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 22:20, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
On the current material, I must note that the State of Palestine, from where the material was taken differs from the NPA. The NPA is merely the government, while the State of Palestine is the country itself. -- The Voidwalker Discuss 21:56, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
The State of Palestine is mainly another name for the PLO. The SoP's Palesitnian National Council doesn't really administer anything within the claimed territory. The Palestinian Authority on the other hand, which a non-unilateral entity, does (via the Palestinian Legislative Council). The demographics will make sense the most in the the article of the Palestinian Territories. Following the 2012 recognition of the PLO declared State of Palestine as a non-member observer, many editors attempted to merge the Palestinian Territories with the State of Palestine while trying to delete the PNA, using one dubious source and a shit ton of SYNTH.
I know it's not a forum but can someone please report this guy for breaking 1RR and the account-only-500-edits-30-days minimum to edit?---Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:05, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
This discussion is merely about copying a paragraph about the Palestinian citizens. No one here discussed the merge of anything. I think this Demographic paragraph is correct as long as this article exists. 79.176.90.45 (talk) 22:19, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
I can't claim to be an expert, but that's how I saw it. Anyway, can someone restore this (and everything else)? -- The Voidwalker Discuss 22:41, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Minor bias in article

Hey, so I can't edit this out due to the fact the article's semi-protected, but I thought I should bring up a personal opinion in this section: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority#Foreign_aid_and_budget_deficit. In particular the statement "The alleged Israeli 'occupation' could not be held responsible for that" is obviously biased and links to a citation at Algemeiner that is very clearly an opinion piece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.16.101.132 (talk) 14:16, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing that, I have added that it is all according to Morton Klein, president of the Zionist Organization of America. The whole paragraph should probably go, if there is nothing more to back it up. Huldra (talk) 20:34, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
I can't speak to the truth of the claim about slowed economic growth since 1994, though it doesn't seem to have any backing here: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Economy_of_the_State_of_Palestine#History. Regardless of the truth of that claim, the last sentence doesn't add any factual information (only a personal opinion) so I think it should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.16.117.168 (talk) 21:43, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Agreed, trimmed it. I don´t really have the time to look into this, but according to the above: all should go. This paragraph should be based on official statistics (and not an opinion piece by the president of the Zionist Organization of America....) Huldra (talk) 22:28, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
According to Klein's Wikipedia article, he's an economist. His opinion as an economist wasn't being cited, but rather his views as a Jewish supremacist (his column's title, possibly chosen by his editor at the right-wing Algemeiner Journal, was "Romney Is Right: Israel’s Economic Success is Due to Culture"). It had nothing to do with foreign aid or budget deficits. The icing on the cake is that one of the two sentences in the paragraph was copied and pasted from the source, in violation of Wikipedia's copyright policy. I've deleted it. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:12, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Why is the State of Palestine's ISO code and domain shown?

These should not be included. The PNA is certainly not the same thing as the State of Palestine. The PNA is solely an administrative body with jurisdiction over part, but not all, of the Palestinian territories, and is recognised by all states. The State of Palestine is a proclaimed sovereign state which claims all of the Palestinian territories, which lacks diplomatic recognition from a number of states.

The ISO code and domain originally were designated to the "the occupied Palestinian territories", and later the State of Palestine following its recognition as a state by the United Nations. They were never designated to the PNA.

Rob984 (talk) 14:43, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I have removed the demographic details of the Palestinian territories from the infobox for this reason also. Rob984 (talk) 14:59, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Are you sure this ISO was never used by the PA? Also, the all of the Palestinian population in the PT, without Area C are citizens of the PA. The PCBS does not include the settler population so I think it is good enough.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:54, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
What do you mean am I sure? It was assigned to the "occupied Palestinian territories", not the PNA. Unless you have a source that implies otherwise?
Good enough? Except the fact that many of those Palestinians do not live under the PNA, and instead live under Israeli administration. Yes, let's just ignore the fact that the PNA covers less than 50% of the Palestinian territories.
Rob984 (talk) 16:42, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Here: "The proposed sponsoring organisation is the Ministry of Telecom and Information Technology, a governmental department of the Palestinian National Authority." “WarKosign” 17:00, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
So? How does that imply is it the domain of the PNA? It is "designated for use to represent the Occupied Palestinian Territory". So someone with no connection to the PNA, living outside of the PNA jurisdiction, could use the domain. The PNA doesn't really have a defined area, it simply has varying jurisdiction over two designated areas. Also what about the ISO code which you reverted my removal of also?
Can you provide sources that directly imply .ps, or the ISO code, refer to the PNA, per WP:NOR? I have explained this to both of you before, "To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented". That source certainly does not.
Rob984 (talk) 17:31, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
This source proves this ccTLD was registered by PNA. It is administered by PNINA. It's registration policy talks about "Palestinian" without mentioning PNA or SoP, but when it does - it mentions both, for example "for security organizations of the Palestinian National Authority and the future state of Palestine." “WarKosign” 14:13, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
From that source gov.ps is the domain intended for use by the PNA, but obviously that is not a TLD. Anyway, I'm not that bothered about the domain, but can we at least remove the ISO code which is not in any way assigned to the PNA? Rob984 (talk) 14:44, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
Here, page 60. PS is associated with "Palestinian territory, occupied" and PNA is listed as list/code source. This document is from 2011, while this page implies that in 2013 the territory was renamed in ISO listing. I'd like to confirm that. If it's correct PS ISO code should be mentioned either here or at Palestinian territories as former/past/historical ISO 3166 code. “WarKosign” 15:08, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
The PA covers 40% of the West Bank, but more than 95% of the population. The PA has citizens and we need to include their number.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:05, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
The PNA actually does not have "citizens". It has never passed a citizenship law. It issues PNA passports to solely Palestinians born in "Palestine", because there is not a PNA citizenship. The PNA passport does not specify citizenship or nationality either. This is why most Palestinians are stateless. The issuing of PNA passports is also regulated by Israel, hence why they include personal ID numbers defined by the Israeli Civil Administration. I assume the State of Palestine/PLO is wanting to establish a Palestinian citizenship, but getting recognition of their own documents by both Israel and the wider internationally community would be impossible without Israeli cooperation.
Even if it covers 95% of the population, it still isn't correct.
Rob984 (talk) 22:56, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Dude, here is Palestinian ID. And I can read hebrew, it says "identification card" and "Palestinian Authority".--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:07, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
So what? Rob984 (talk) 23:11, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
By the way, the PNA literally only issues the card. The Israeli Civil Administration chooses who gets a card, and what the card states. It designates the personal ID on the card also. It is in no way a form of PNA citizenship. Rob984 (talk) 23:17, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Also, my identity card states my nationality, like most countries'. I can't read Hebrew but I doubt that one does. Rob984 (talk) 23:20, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
What do you mean by "my identity card states my nationality"? My ID card states "status: Israeli citizenship". The Palestinian I.D. does not, but it has: the name "Palestinian Autohirity" on and and a personal number that is exactly like the numbers in Israeli IDs. It also has a stamp of the Palestinian Authority's interior ministry in Arabic (I recognize it because it is written the same way "interior ministry" is written in Arabic on my ID. The ID also label your religion. If the Palestinians have an interior ministry, I guess it makes sense they have citizens. In addition to that, there is also a Palestinian passport and it is seperated from Palestinian ID, and the new "State of Palestine" passport is the same, just the title changed. You can see that in the emblem it still says "Palestinian Authority". And there is something angry in your tongue.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 16:12, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry Bolter, I missed your comment. What you state, "If the Palestinians have an interior ministry, I guess it makes sense they have citizens", is frankly absurd. Like I said, the PNA doesn't have citizenship by simple fact that there is no Palestinian citizenship law. As a result, the only way to obtain Palestinian documentation is to be born in the Palestinian territories. It you are born to parents with Palestinian documentation, but outside of the Palestinian territories, you cannot necessarily obtain Palestinian documentation. This means if you are born in a country which does not guarantee birthright citizenship, you could be stateless. As a result, most Palestinian refugees are stateless, not Palestinian citizens. There is a big question as to whether the millions of Palestinian refugees will ever allowed to return to Palestine. If they had citizenship, there would be no question. For example, Palestinians displaced out of territories after the 1967 Palestinian exodus are not able to return. Does the PNA is refuse these people, born in Palestine, citizenship? Of course not. Israel refuses to allow them Palestinian documentation and the PNA can't do anything to help these people. Without using the term, the UN basically describes this as ethnic cleansing. The past is the past though, right? Sorry if I seem "angry", but what you claim, "I guess it makes sense", shows a complete disregard for the history of the way your country has systematically attempted to cleanse the entirety of the former Mandatory Palestine of Palestinians. Fortunately, it seems highly unlikely your country will succeed at this aim now the international community has woken up.

PS, is it not glaringly obvious Israel effectively controls the issuing of Palestinian documentation, considering like you point out, the personal ID numbers of Palestinians are the same as Israeli personal ID numbers? What did you think, Israel gets to choose who can be a Palestinian citizen? Every country in the world recognises Palestinian documentation because the issuing is conducted in cooperation with the Israeli Civil Administration. Without this cooperation, many countries would not recognise the documentation. This makes any unilateral declaration of Palestinian citizenship pointless at this time. Israel will never allow Palestinians the right to return to the West Bank. Not unless the UN intervenes.

Rob984 (talk) 01:55, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

There are people who pay taxes to the PNA and to councils that are funded by the PNA. They have a right to vote in PNA elections and must abide the laws accepted by the PNA and in return they are entitled to some welfare. What are they?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:30, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
People under a jurisdiction? I figure that's what you mean by "citizen" now. However, you wouldn't talk about "citizens of Paris" just because they live in Paris. Anyway, getting back to what this discussion was about, the PNA doesn't have councils, laws, etc everywhere in the Palestinian territories. Hence they are not synonymous. Rob984 (talk) 11:43, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Permanent residents it what they are. Similarly, there are permanent residents of Israel, who pay taxes and must abide by Israeli law, and are entitled to some welfare. But they are not citizens. Rob984 (talk) 11:54, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Infobox

Apparently, some people claim that some kind of consensus was achieved in 2015 discussion, which has never been closed officially and in fact included a now-banned editor, which gives it much less weight. There is a strong need to reopen that discussion, which is wrongly used to justify a dramatic change of this article over the past year.GreyShark (dibra) 06:40, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Greyshark, the Palestinian Authority exists. I am starting to think writing it doesn't exist anymore should be a WP:POV violation, so people will stop writing this lie already. Anyway, the flag was removed with no consensus, and not consensus was reached afterwards. So I returned the flag.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:23, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Here Abbas says that PNA still exists. “WarKosign” 12:17, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Who needs Abbas when the PA's news agency keeps using the term PA. Even in their Arabic website (السلطة الوطنية الفلسطينية).--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:21, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Well, you haven't said what the problem is and I think it was made pretty clear why the PNA ≠ the OPT. If you need that explaining to you again, I can copy and paste the relevant parts (alternatively, you can just read it)? Why you are unilaterally redirecting phrases like "Occupied Palestinian territories" here I don't know. Please don't. Rob984 (talk) 13:17, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Flag

@Rob984:According to the Palestinian basic law which is the constitution of the Palestinian Authority whose legislative body, the PLC accepted it in 1997, The flag of Palestine shall be in four colors, and in accordance with the dimensions and measurement approved by the Palestinian Liberation Organization. It shall be the official flag of the country., in accordance to that, the PLO provided the dimensions and measurements: Three equally sized bars, top is black, central is white, lower is green and a triangle, whose lengh is equal to a third of the flag's lengh, and the whole flag is half the lengh of the original PLO flag. I.e. the PLO is describing this: [1]

The law of the PLO is signed by "Mahmoud Abbas , Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization President of the Palestinian National Authority"

So in a nutshell, the PLC made a law to determine that the PLO will create a flag and the PLO, whose leader is also the leader of the PNA, had released a law in 2006, determining how the flag should look like.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:06, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Except it's called the "Palestinian flag", not the "Flag of the PNA" and has never been designated as the flag of the PNA. The PNA isn't a country, its an administrative body. The PNA deals with wider Palestinian matters, as well as administration of the areas. According to your logic, the Palestinian flag is also the flag of the PLO, PLC, etc.. It has only been designated as the Palestinian flag. Do I need to remind you of our policies on WP:SYNTHESIS? Rob984 (talk) 11:37, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
According to your logic, the PNA never uses the Palestinian flag.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:18, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
So every article of a Palestinian-related body which has ever used the Palestinian flag should have it in the top of its infobox? The problem is you think the PNA is like a country. If it were a country, then merely use of the flag would be justification. However the PNA is not a country, it is an administrative body with varying degrees of control over areas and a specific role in the domestic and international representation of the Palestinian people. It was created through cooperation with Israel as a result of the Oslo Accords, and is not an independent entity like a country. The State of Palestine is the PLO unilateral attempt to create a state around the PNA. However, they cannot abolish the PNA, and still must work within the framework of the PNA in relation to the Palestinian territories and Israel, because of the Oslo Accords. Rob984 (talk) 13:39, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Every country is an administrative body. There are countries today that are de-facto not independent while autonomies and federal districts have flags and symbols, dispite only being "administrative bodies". If you happened to forget, even companies or the smallest of shops or businesses sometimes have symbols. My city has a flag and so every little village out there. While not being a country (lacking independence and clear sovereignty), the PNA is a country much more than the SoP, which is no more than an idea, recognized by some UN members and organizations. In 1988 the Palestinians didn't try to create a state. When the PLO failed to take over Jordan in 1970 and Lebanon in 1975-1982, they moved their focus to the West Bank and Gaza and during the First Intifada declared independence which was followed by not a single attempt to actually establish the state. In reality, the Palestinian declaration of independence simply gave the Palestinian National Council another title, and was used to justify UN recognition. The PNA is an entity and this entity wave only one flag. This entity had an observer status in the UN and it was recently upgraded to a "non-member state". The PNA, oPt, SoP... in the eyes of the UN, all of those are the same. The PNA has its constitution, it is called the "Palestinian Basic Law" and in that law, it is said the flag is decided by the PLO and the PLO had decided in 2006 how the flag should look like. I brought you the sources.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:46, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
A country isn't an administrative body, it is an administrative area, with the administrative body being its government. I don't see an Israeli flag in the infobox of Government of Israel. The PNA is not an administrative area, instead, it is an administrative body with varying degrees of control over administrative areas. Referring to the PNA as a place doesn't even make sense: "I live in the Palestinian National Authority". And the UN certainly does not see the Gaza Strip and Areas A & B of the West Bank (the PNA's jurisdiction, since it only has a very limited role in Palestinian populated parts of Area C) as = to the occupied Palestinian territories. It does however see the State of Palestine as = occupied Palestinian territories, hence it changed the designation from the latter to the former. Rob984 (talk) 16:29, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
The Palestinian Authority also has it's own cabinet. Just like the Israeli cabinet, the Palestinian cabinet is accepted the the Palestinian legislative body which is called the Palestinian Legislative Council. The Israeli cabinet and the Israeli Knesset are both the operative and legislative authorities of the State of Israel. The Palestinian cabint/government and the Palestinian Legislative council are the operative and legislative authorities of the Palestinian Authority. While you can't "live" in the Palestinian Authority, you can indeed be a [https://www.btl.gov.il/English%20Homepage/Insurance/Employers/foreignresident/Pages/default.aspx resident of the Palestinian Authority". I don't live in the "State of Israel", I live in a land which is the legal sovereign territory of the State of Israel... While I brought two sources which are not WP:SYNTH, you go too deep in the philosophy of states.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:49, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Maybe that was a poor comparison with Israel's "Government" (I confess I didn't actually check where that link went). Most countries dont have an all-encompassing "Government" body, unlike say, the United States. Instead they have various bodies, including an executive (which can also be referred to as "the government") and a legislature, which form the administration of the country (as in the case of Israel I assume). The PNA is similar to US Government in that it includes all aspects of the national administration. Although this whole comparison is slightly silly since the PNA is not a state, nor part of a functioning state.
Prepare to go even deeper into the philosophy of states... If you live in the "legal sovereign territory of the State of Israel", you either live in an internal or external territory of the State of Israel. If it is internal, you live in the State of Israel. If it is external, you live in outside of the State of Israel, in an area under Israeli sovereignty as a dependent territory. Israel doesn't have any dependent territories, so you must live in the State of Israel, even if that is the disputed territory such as the Golan Heights or Jerusalem, since both have been annexed by the State of Israel. States are places and span geographic areas. They aren't just political concepts.
The use of those sources is synthesis, since they don't directly support the material being presented. I'm only going into the philosophy of states to convince you your synthesis is wrong. I don't need to prove anything since adding synthesis is a policy violation. Although as always, these discussions are always a pleasure.
Rob984 (talk) 21:47, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
My comments "you can't live in the State of Israel" were sarcastic (although as a very moderate nihilist I do believe in them but not in the current discussion). My point is that the PNA, unlike how you show it, is not only the government, it is the "national authority" and even if it was only a government, just like Israel's government, it uses a flag. Now, in the source I provided it is said clear that the Palestinian Basic Law is the constitution of the PNA. I am honestly not an expert of political science, but I do believe it is states that have constitutions and not the governments. In this case I am really not sure. What I do know is that the two sources I provided are connected to each other. What is the best way to determine if it is synthesis or not?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 00:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
I think that most of this discussion, interesting though it is, is irrelevant to the question. If the PNA customarily uses a flag, there is no basis in the rules for excluding it from the article. All the other stuff about what type of object the PNA is or of the PNA's right to fly a flag do not come into it. Argue by applying Wikipedia rules for excluding the flag that the PNA flies; otherwise there is no reason to exclude it. Zerotalk 00:23, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
I think the argument is the same as the reason the Federal government of the United States article does not have a flag. The flag is deemed to represent the State, not the governmental authority. Oncenawhile (talk) 05:59, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, ok. I don't have a strong opinion on it. Zerotalk 09:21, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Oncenawhile: Rob had already brought this example. The Federal government of the United State is of the United States just like the Palestinian Unity Government of June 2014 is the government of the Palestinian Authority. Now I"ve brought two sources, the one shows the constitution of the PNA, saying the PLO determines the flag, and one PLO law, that determine the flag according to the Palestinian constitution. How can we determine if this is synth or not and be done with it?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 10:18, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
The PNA government is only the executive branch of the PNA. The Federal government of the United States is the entire national administration of the United States, like the PNA is for Areas A & B. The Executive branch of the Federal Government of the United States would be comparable to the Palestinian Unity Government of June 2014. The naming of these bodies is irrelevant since different countries/polities name and structure bodies differently.
Unless the source directly implies the Palestinian flag is the flag of the PNA, its synthesis. Eg, a statement saying "the Palestinian flag is the flag of the PNA".
Rob984 (talk) 11:33, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
So this debate rests on whether the PNA is a government or a quasi-state. I have read the sources provided by Bolter, including the Basic Law. The Basic Law states "the establishment of the Palestinian National Authority with its three pillars – the legislative, executive and judicial branches". If we take this phrase and replace in the US context, you could not write "the establishment of the United States with its three pillars – the legislative, executive and judicial branches", but instead you would need to write "the establishment of the United States Government with its three pillars – the legislative, executive and judicial branches" for the sentence to make sense. Oncenawhile (talk) 19:51, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
And yet districts and autonomies have flags.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:31, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Huh? States, districts etc can all have flags. Governments don't. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:05, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Can a national authority have a flag?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:20, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
It is a government, so it would be more usual for it to have a seal or an emblem. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:32, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

@Bolter21: per the new ARBPIA rules, you are not allowed to revert a revert without discussion. Please self-revert. Oncenawhile (talk) 11:25, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't remember this policy existing. Can you quote the policy that says I am not allowed to revert a revert without discussion?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:28, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
It says it in the template at the top of this page - "Consensus required: Editors are required to obtain consensus through discussion before restoring a reverted edit."
I don't like the new policy (it came in a few months ago), but following a few AE blocks of people who have ignored it, it has become accepted practice. It is being discussed at WP:ARCA at the moment. Oncenawhile (talk) 12:17, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Bolter21, you still fail to provide a source which "directly support[s] the material being presented", so are violating WP:SYNTHESIS. And you still do not have consensus to add the contentious material. Don't do it. And if yourself and WarKosign keep up this tag team shit, you'll both be reported. It's not clever, just plain annoying. Rob984 (talk) 13:05, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
We are not coordinated or something. I can say the same on every other two users who happen to share a simmilar opinion by accident. And I won't bother to go read the policy since someone already reverted my edit. The Palestinian constitution is the constitution of the Palestinian Authority[2]. The flag is the official flag of the Palestinian Authority[3][4]. The Palestinian Authority is not a "government" (and thus can't have a flag, according to Oncenawhile), it is an entity, which has representation in the UN, now as an observer state, under the name "Palestine".[5].--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:47, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Neither of the sources you linked to state that the Palestinian flag is the flag of the PNA. In fact they both specifically do not state that when it would have been natural for them to do so. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:11, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
@Rob984: I reverted one edit that Greyshark09 made, Bolter21 un-reverted another one. What "tag team shit" are you talking about, exactly ? We both happen to agree with sources on the fact that PNA still exists, as far as I know it's not a crime. Please be civil; I would appreciate you removing unbased accusation of tag-teaming. “WarKosign” 18:27, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment - the Palestinian National Authority was a "self-governing body" - meaning a geopolitical entity with a government (as well as territory, security, legislative body, etc). The idea that PNA was just a "government" is something exceptionally away from reality, trying to justifying removal of PNA flag. It is ridiculous.GreyShark (dibra) 15:39, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Per the discussion above from last year, you need to bring sources supporting this interpretation. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:11, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
What is its territory then? How can it have a clear "territory" when the area it governs is also governed by Israeli Civil Administration? It's a body, like you say yourself, not a state or even a region. Bolter, you need a source which "directly support[s] the material being presented", until then, there is nothing to discuss. Rob984 (talk) 13:41, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
GreyShark appears not to understand the difference between the PNA and the OPT. Sigh. Rob984 (talk) 13:54, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

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Update section "Payments to Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons"

By analyzing the Palestinian Authority’s Annual Budgets in Arabic 2013 – 2016, it has been discovered that the Palestinian Authority’s legislation and allocations of monthly salaries and benefits for imprisoned and released perpetrators of Palestinian political violence, and the families of Martyrs, amount to $300 million annually.

Here is the complete research on the matter.

Copyright violation removed. Zerotalk 11:08, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

I think it would be appropriate to add this updated and more detailed information to the section.

What do you think?

Nicolasegosum (talk) 08:57, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

JCPA is not a reliable source. Zerotalk 11:08, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
JCPA analyzed the Palestinian Authority’s Annual Budgets in Arabic 2013 – 2016 and translated it. Here you can find it hosted on pmof.ps, the official website of the Palestinian Ministry of Finance. Nicolasegosum (talk) 20:26, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Judea and Samaria Area

There are about 330,000 Israelis living in settlements in Area C,[120] in the Judea and Samaria Area.

This sentence should probably be shortened to "There are about 330,000 Israelis living in settlements in Area C." There is no Judea and Samaria area within Area C of the West Bank. ImTheIP (talk) 20:54, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

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New Palestinian Prime Minister

The article states that Rami Hamdallah is still the Prime Minister of the PNA. However, he has since resigned from office and been replaced by Mohammad Shtayyeh. I think the article should be updated accordingly. JadeEditor (talk) 14:16, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

As of August 31st, this change still needs to be implemented. Ashapiro128 (talk) 18:54, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

If you have a good source that supports this fact - sure, go ahead. “WarKosign” 21:02, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 Done Onceinawhile (talk) 22:27, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
The title is PM of the State of Palestine; PM of Palestinian Authority title is not in use since 2013.GreyShark (dibra) 13:45, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
According to who? Here is a Palestinian Arabic source: "...رئيس السلطة الوطنية الفلسطينية محمود عباس..." - "Head of the Palestinian National Authority Mahmoud Abbass", 18 January 2020. No mention for "State of Palestine" in this article about the future of the West Bank and the Palestinians after Abu Mazen's death. Mahmoud Abbas is the President of the State of Palestine only in official UN documents, which is where the State of Palestine exists. But in reality, the Palestinians have no state and now Trump and Bibi are coming up with a plan to establish one.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 19:43, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 May 2021

Wrong Surname of Swedish foreign aid minister, his surname is Eriksson, not Erik.

In the chapter "international aid" last section it say "In 2020, Swedish foreign aid minister Peter Erik (Green Party) announced a 1.5 billion SEK support package (about 150 million euro) to the Palestine Authority in 2020–2024. This announcement came after several other countries had reduced aid due to indicators of corruption and that funds go towards the salaries of militants.[172]" It should be Peter Eriksson, half if his surname is missing, the reference 172 also confirms my statement. // FabbevanB (talk) 14:13, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done Run n Fly (talk) 14:17, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Introduction

The most recent edition just a few days ago changed the lead to make it say: "Since January 2013, it has used the name "State of Palestine" on official documents (despite the official state being governed by the Palestine Liberation Organization)." I don't understand the need for the information in parentheses which has been just added, which isn't sourced, is itself controversial (the same people form the Palestinian National Authority and the Palestine Liberation Organization, and there is no "dispute" between the two organizations, as they are the same people) and it has nothing to do with the subject of this article, which is the Palestinian National Authority. Definitely doesn't need to be in the introduction to this article. For clarity's sake, I recommend undoing this one last edition. Dan Palraz (talk) 21:18, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Reverted as unnecessary.Selfstudier (talk) 10:57, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
It has been included again. It is completely irrelevant to the introduction of an article on the Palestinian National Authority (and incorrect: the official State of Palestine is indeed governed by the Palestinian National Authority: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Palestinian-Authority . Dan Palraz (talk) 16:07, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
I am not going to edit war, if after a period of time no citation is forthcoming, I will remove it per policy.Selfstudier (talk) 17:08, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Update on elections

The last elections were in 2006, but on the page it says that the PNA "has not held elections in over 15 years". Now the last election would've been 17 years ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thekrost (talk • contribs) 11:10, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if this is an issue with Google or Wikipedia, but a Google search for Palestinian National Authority elicits this display:

Palestinian National Authority The Palestinian Authority is an authoritarian regime that has not held elections in over 15 years; it has been criticized for human rights abuses, including ... ‎President · ‎Prime Minister · ‎Politics of Palestine · ‎Gaza–Jericho Agreement

The selected sentence to describe the PNA is highly critical rather than descriptive. Was this selected by Google or is it part of the page? Something more general like the first sentence in the PNA article would be more appropriate. Jamminjuda (talk) 20:58, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

It is at the very bottom of the introductory segment and I agree with you that it is more critical than descriptive. We will just have to hope an established Wikipedia editor sees this and changes it. Thekrost (talk) 11:13, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

War

i want to go palestine for war... I support palestine... And my work place UAE and i am bangladeshi... Please help me for join war 2.50.240.37 (talk) 14:46, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

This is not a forum to discuss your opinion. SKAG123 (talk) 20:47, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

PNA doesn't govern Gaza Strip


  • What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

The map in the header should be updated to show that PNA does not govern Gaza Strip (Hamas does)

  • Why it should be changed:

As stated in the article (and as is well established), PNA does not govern the Gaza Strip so the map should reflect that

  • References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/17/pipe-dream-why-is-the-us-pushing-the-palestinian-authority-to-lead-gaza#:~:text=Meanwhile%2C%20Hamas%20faced%20increasing%20international,of%20the%20territory%20ever%20since. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/17/what-is-the-gaza-strip-and-who-controls-it.html https://www.axios.com/2023/10/21/gaza-strip-israel-hamas-war-demographics https://freedomhouse.org/country/gaza-strip/freedom-world/2023 https://www.npr.org/2023/11/06/1210826872/fatah-controls-the-west-bank-hamas-controls-gaza-is-there-a-dominant-voice (just a number of sources stating that Gaza is governed by Hamas and not the PNA.) Shaked13 (talk) 16:39, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

References

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 16:07, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Gaza

did it have any control in Gaza recently? Irtapil (talk) 14:07, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Fact check, name used by UN

In the first paragraph its stated that the UN continues to address Palestine as the PLO, even though in the source itself the UN recognizes the request for the name change, and instates it. Either an additional source should be added clarifying the facts, or the statement should be amended to state that the name change was successful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.151.150.9 (talk) 21:43, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

"without prejudice to the acquired rights, privileges and role of the Palestine Liberation Organization in the United Nations as the representative of the Palestinian people, in accordance with the relevant resolutions and practice" per source is sufficient clarification. Selfstudier (talk) 19:03, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

NPOV

"Authoritarian Regime" breaks npov wiki rules, it is absolutely not a neutral way of speaking. Stating that the Palestinian Authority has not held elections in 15 years would be perfectly adequate without the added obviously biased language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7C:46FA:5A00:7C51:5DC5:CFB5:FB4C (talk) 01:26, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Calling a state an authoritarian regime does not automatically mean it's not a neutral point of view. In this specific context, describing a state which has not held elections in over 15 years as undemocratic is rather reasonable. Royz-vi Tsibele (talk) 12:20, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Name change section minor grammar correction

The word "However", should not be used in the last sentence in this paragraph - there is nothing countradictory or contrasting or clashing, about both quotes. Both quotes are consistent with the trend / pattern of the de facto recognition despite the americans/Israelis objections / reluctance/interference.

So... also?

Also...  ?

Addiitionally?

whatever. 101.119.141.17 (talk) 15:13, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Gaza Strip

The map should be updated to show that the Palestinian Authority does not actually govern the Gaza Strip. (The map makes it seem like Gaza is governed by the Palestinian Authority when it is actually governed by Hamas.) Shaked13 (talk) 17:27, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

please provide reliable sources. SKAG123 (talk) 20:47, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Here you go:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/17/pipe-dream-why-is-the-us-pushing-the-palestinian-authority-to-lead-gaza#:~:text=Meanwhile%2C%20Hamas%20faced%20increasing%20international,of%20the%20territory%20ever%20since.
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/17/what-is-the-gaza-strip-and-who-controls-it.html
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/21/gaza-strip-israel-hamas-war-demographics
https://freedomhouse.org/country/gaza-strip/freedom-world/2023
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/06/1210826872/fatah-controls-the-west-bank-hamas-controls-gaza-is-there-a-dominant-voice Shaked13 (talk) 02:55, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
This is mentioned in the lead
”Since January 2013, the Palestinian Authority has used the name "State of Palestine" on official documents, although the United Nationscontinues to recognize the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) as the "representative of the Palestinian people".
SKAG123 (talk) 03:39, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
Not sure why you think that has anything to do with my comment that the map should be updated to show that the Gaza Strip is governed by Hamas and not the Palestinian Authority. Shaked13 (talk) 05:04, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
I am not well versed in the subject of this article. However, based on the lead section this article refers this state of Palestine which included both the West Bank and Gaza Strip. SKAG123 (talk) 05:07, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
This article is not about the State of Palestine, that's a different article called State of Palestine, this article is about the Palestinian National Authority (hence the title). As I said before, the map incorrectly indicates that the Gaza Strip is governed by the Palestinian National Authority when in fact it is governed by Hamas Shaked13 (talk) 14:20, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
I think there are a couple of clarifiers needed here. 1st is separating the PNA (the Palestinian government body), and the State of Palestine (the global/political force); like the difference between the Biden administration, and the United States as a country. A second confusing thing is that the PNA is stated as 'Fatah controlled' even though practical and majority power is held by Hamas in the Gaza strip. Globally the PNA is the representative for the single state that is Palestine, and since Hamas is not recognized, and Fatah still hasn't officially transferred power the 'official' government of the State of Palestine (which is the PNA) is run by Fatah. A third confusing thing is lack of clarification between the PLO and Fatah, Fatah is one party that helps make up the PLO. In summary; this article should probably refer to the PNA as 'PLO controlled' rather then 'Fatah controlled' while clarifying that Fatah makes up the majority of the PLO, and also make clear the current political schism that has left Hamas in control of majority seats in the legislature, but does not control official power due to lack of global recognition. Its a horrifically complex situation (and this is just for the names of things!) so it makes sense theres been confusion. I dont have edit access though, so if someone could help push some clarifiers through that would be great! All info is sourced from the current and linked pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.151.150.9 (talk) 21:54, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
Also, both articles have the same flag and coat of arms. The comment above mine seems relevant.--FeralOink (talk) 17:57, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 26 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 02:24, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Palestinian National Authority → Palestinian Authority – 'Palestinian Authority' is obviously the common name of the entity. Media almost always refers to it as such, and when PNA is mentioned, it's always as a formal or alternative name to the PA. Britannica (1): "Palestinian Authority; Formally: Palestinian National Authority", Council for Foreign Relations (2) "The PA is headquartered in the West Bank ... Officially named the Palestinian National Authority", Aljazeera: (3) "The PLO then signed the Oslo Accords, which led to the creation of the Palestinian National Authority, or Palestinian Authority..." and more. It's clear what the common name is. Personisinsterest (talk) 00:38, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Support: Seems like a straightforward common name case. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:19, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
Support: Ditto. Should be the other way around. Mannana308 (talk) 14:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC) non-EC !vote struck LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 05:40, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
Support per nom. Mellk (talk) 14:32, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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