Talk:Pahari people (Kashmir)

Please note

Dear Ayhan Lehnda stands for Western Punjabi and not for the Pahari language .While editing the text @ Pahari people (Kashmir) please take care that basic facts remained the same. The term Lehnda is used by G.A. Grierson to discuss Punjabi dialects in the first Linguistic Survey of India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pauljemes (talk • contribs) 07:11, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Western Pahari Claim

Pauljemes This article seems to be making some huge linguistic claims that Punchi & other languages are under Western Pahari. I haven't come across such resource. Others too kindly comment on this. The person too doesn't provides any support to this claim. I wonder how this page even came into existence then. Nik9hil (talk) 16:02, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, there hasn't been any shift in language, or even in linguists' understanding of the language. It's the casual and persistent confusion between different languages with the same name. Pauljemes, I don't think there's any need to go at great length about the languages in this article: it's enough to say that the Paharis of the Pir Panjal Range speak a variety of Pahari-Pothwari (listing alternative names like Poonchi) and add that they're distinct from the Western Pahari varieties spoken in the mountains of Jammu Division. Let the language articles cover the linguistic ground. – Uanfala (talk) 13:35, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

A Reply : @ Nik9hil @Uanfala (talk) Sir, Please don't get confused. Here are the details: There are two groups who claim that they are 'Pahari's in Jammu and Kashmir. One Speaks Western Pahari dialects. The other group who speak western Punjabi Lahnda dialects but politically claim that they are also Pahari Speakers. Interestingly, the second group ( who speak western Punjabi Lahnda dialects ) has been recognized by Govt of Jammu and Kashmir in early 70s as Pahari Speaking People and established a State Board for Development of Pahari Speaking People for them, established a Pahari Section in Govt supported organisation Jammu and Kashmir Academy of Art, Culture and Languages for promotion of the dialects they speak, granted 4% reservation to them in Govt Jobs and Admissions in Educational institutions, constructed hostels for Education of their children and so on.

Regarding Pahari-Pothwari : Punchhi is not a part of Pahari-Pothwari. In the census 2011, Punchhi is placed separately under the Lahnda (Mother Tongue ) group. May kindly see this link of Govt of India. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pauljemes (talk • contribs) 04:48, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I have also added the citation from the linguistic Survey of India to justify the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pauljemes (talk • contribs) 04:55, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

References

I don't want to burden you, but can you tell me what Government of India classifies Pahari-Potwari as? GoI Classifications should be taken with a pinch of salt; they are hardly ever correct. I do understand the motive behind not associating with Pahari Potwari, but given that it is classified under Lahnda, I would like t inform you that Lahnda is part of Western Punjabi not Western Pahari. People might be identifying as Pahari but their language is linguistically Western Punjabi. I f people identify more with Pahari, kindly explicitly state that it is cultural identity. The current statement seems more as if it is saying that it is part of Western Pahari group of languages. Let us not confuse people between Punjabi & Pahari. Nik9hil (talk) 11:44, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Article scope

We'd need to rename the article at some point: there are many groups throughout the Himalayas that speak one or another language that's known as "Pahari", and we'd need a title that's precise enough to distinguish it from them. This will probably also involve moving the current Pahari people to something like Pahari people (Nepal), and then disambiguating both titles.

However, before choosing a new name for this article, we'd need some more clarity about its exact scope. As far as I can see, it's possible for it to be about either:

1. speakers of Pahari–Pothohari varieties in Kashmir, both Indian and Pakistani (because of the shared language)

2. speakers of Pahari–Pothohari only in Indian Kashmir (because of the recent political and cultural movements)

3. people who call themselves "Paharis" anywhere in Indian Kashmir, whether they be speakers of Pahari–Pothohari varieties or the unrelated Western Pahari ones (because of what I presume may be some commonality in their political agendas)

I don't know which is better, or whether each one of these options is viable in the first place. #3 looks the most difficult to justify. I don't have enough background to make a judgement call here. What do others think? – Uanfala (talk) 20:52, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Well, no-one responded here, despite that fact that I had posted on the Pakistani and Indian noticeboards. I've rewritten parts of the article, and I've recast it so its scope is somewhere around #1 and #2 above – most of the content is about the Paharis on the Indian side, but it's worded in a way that doesn't exclude the ones in Pakistan. The Western Paharis are excluded as (at least linguistically) unrelated. I have no idea if this is the best solution, but it seems like the least awkward fit to what I've read in the literature. I'm going to move this article to Pahari people (Kashmir). – Uanfala (talk) 23:21, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@Uanfala: I think defining the scope to Pahari-Pothwari speakers is a good idea. There's a strong claim to an ethnolinguistic identity stemming from that dialect, particularly in the case of Azad Kashmir where these speakers form the majority population. Mar4d (talk) 14:13, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Also, what are your thoughts on renaming this to Pahari-Pothwari people (or something along those lines). That may allow us to encapsulate speakers of the Potohari variety of northern Punjab. Mar4d (talk) 14:18, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Are there any sources discussing this group as a whole? I can't find anything online withen I search for "Pahari-Pothwari people". Sure, people in Kashmir have a strong identity (though from the little I've read so far it hasn't become clear to what an extent this identity transcends the Line of Control), but are the core group of Pothwari speakers in Punjab included here? – Uanfala (talk) 16:20, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Uanfala, it will be worth digging up what the sources say on Pothwaris/Potoharis. This one by Mathew Joseph C. is interesting as it asserts that the differences between Mirpuris/Azad Kashmiris and the "Potohari Punjabis" are more political rather than cultural. Mar4d (talk) 10:37, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Well, when I was scavenging the linguistics literature three years ago, I don't recall coming across anything substantial about the people as a group. Though of course, such content is more likely to be found outside the linguistics literature. The paper you've highlighted certainly points in the right direction. But again, we'd need sources that discussion this group as a whole. The article, as it currently stands, is mostly about the Paharis of Indian Jammu and Kashmir, because the sourcing is about them and their political struggles. I can't even say I'm completely happy with the languages section that I've added or the tweaked lead because they both imply the article is about the Paharis of both Indian and Pakistani Kashmir, and that may be verging on WP:OR, no matter how anodyne it may first seem. – Uanfala (talk) 15:33, 5 November 2020 (UTC)