Talk:PP-19-01 Vityaz

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Firearms Low‑importance

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Military history: Technology / Weaponry / Russian & Soviet

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Russia: Military Low‑importance

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On 14 July 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from PP-19 Vityaz to PP-19-01 Vityaz. The result of the discussion was moved.

Military use?

The beginning of the article claims that the Vityaz-SN is the "standard submachine gun for all branches of Russian military", yet none of the references given support this. Anywhere else I search only mentions the Russian police using it. Grimwol (talk) 15:15, 1 February 2016 (UTC) It is used by Spetsnaz units. Although, they prefer to use AK-74s, because as we all know, rifle calibers are more effective than pistol calibers. I have added the appropriate reference to the statement in question.--RAF910 (talk) 18:30, 1 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Correct name

See manufacture website[1] the corrct name is Vityaz-SN.--RAF910 (talk) 21:55, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@RAF910: The Vityaz-SN is a variant of the PP-19-01 Vityaz, with Picatinny rails, left side charging handle and left side fire selector, as stated here. As such, "PP-19-01 Vityaz" is a more appropriate article name. Thanks, RadiculousJ (talk) 15:47, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The manufacture calls it the Vityaz-SN. Are you seriously going to argue the manufacture is wrong and the Blog/website is right?--RAF910 (talk) 17:18, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@RAF910: I'm not saying the manufacturer is wrong, merely that they have only included the currently produced version, the Vityaz-SN, on their website, and that the article should be titled after and include info on the original version, the PP-19-01 Vityaz, as well as the Vityaz-SN.

Also, Modern Firearms is used as a source on plenty of other articles, so why not this one? RadiculousJ (talk) 18:22, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your argument is not with me, it's with the manufacturer. If you think that the Modern Firearm source is superior to the manufacture, then take it to an ANI. Present, your arguments there. Good Luck, you'll need it.--RAF910 (talk) 18:29, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@RAF910: Please show me where I said that Kalashnikov Concern (KC) is wrong, because I thought I said that KC is correct to call the version currently in production the Vityaz-SN. Thanks, RadiculousJ (talk) 19:48, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

STOP, changing the articles name. The Modern Firearms website notoriously unreliable and in this case it is flat-out wrong. Look at the manufactures website. Look at the photographs. Look at the 360 image. The charging handle is on the right side, not the left. If you change it again, I will file an ANI against you, or you can file an ANI against me, and we'll let the community decide which is correct the Manufacture or the blog/website.--RAF910 (talk) 18:58, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 August 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 15:18, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Vityaz-SN → PP-19-01 Vityaz′ – As can be seen over on Russian Wikipedia's article and Kalashnikov Concern's Russian page for the Vityaz′, the current version is called the PP-19-01 isp.20 "Vityaz′-SN". As Russian Wikipedia states, this is a variant of the PP-19-01 isp.10 "Vityaz′". Whilst Modern Firearms (and Russian Wikipedia, because it uses MF as its source) is incorrect about the nonexistent left-side charging handle and left-side safety/selector lever on the isp.20, it is clearly not wrong about the addition of Picatinny rails, which seems to be the only thing differentiating the isp.10 "Vityaz′" and the isp.20 "Vityaz′-SN". As far as "Vityaz′", rather than "Vityaz" the soft sign is denoted by a prime, though if technical restrictions or convention don't allow, PP-19-01 Vityaz would work too. Thanks, RadiculousJ (talk) 17:10, 29 August 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 ^{talk to me | my contributions} 20:56, 5 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412 T 00:54, 19 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OPPOSE AGAIN...This is the English Wikipedia. In English it's called the "Vityaz-SN" see the English language page of Kalashnikov Concern products https://kalashnikov.com/en/product/firearms/mle/vityaz-sn.html. What it's called in Russian is irrelevant. In English we call the AK-47 an "AK-47". We don't call it the Автома́т Кала́шникова, tr. Avtomát Kaláshnikova.--RAF910 (talk) 17:45, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@RAF910: How exactly is it irrelevant?! What it's called is what it's called, no matter what language it's in, and "ПП-19-01 «Витязь»" translates as 'PP-19-01 "Vityaz′"'. As far as the AK, I don't quite understand how that's relevant, especially as that seems to counter your own point, as "PP-19-01" is the designation of this weapon in the same way that "AK-47" is. Also, if we leave this at it's current title, surely SR-2 Veresk, SR-3 Vikhr, AS Val and VSS Vintorez, should all be moved to just their nickname, which is ridiculous.

Maybe we should wait to see what others think, because, for the better part of two years, this has been a two-person "discussion". Thanks, RadiculousJ (talk) 19:27, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@RadiculousJ and Dreamy Jazz: Should the new name be PP-19-01 Vityaz without the apostrophe to represent Russian "soft sign" (ь)? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:06, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what RAF910 has against calling it the pp-19-01. The SN or not SN is another issue. but ignoring the pp-19 designation for this but keeping it on the bizon (the gun this was developed from) seems to lack consistency with other wiki articles... Do we use actual designations or not? Its like the article for the mig-21 just calling it the "fishbed" and ignoring the Russian name or the mig-21 designation. another example is the S-125 Neva which has its Russian name as its title and shows its western nato name in the article (as most russian vehicles and weapons do). So are Russian names and designations important on Wikipedia or not? i don't suggest we change the name, but at least make mention to the designation. also, your argument about the Russian name being irrelevant would make sense if it was the other way around, but since the manufacturer is Russian, then we should respect what they call it. if it was a western gun, why would it matter what they call it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dharcronus (talk • contribs) 22:57, 19 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. No case to answer. The arguments above all seem based on non-English sources or primary sources or both. It's most unlikely that the longer name is as recognisable and/or as common, so let us move on. Andrewa (talk) 12:33, 29 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
One point to sort out here, is whether or not to transcribe the Russian soft sign (Ь) by a prime symbol or an apostrophe, or to ignore it. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:37, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- A potential can of worms, and I'd simply ignore it. It's not necessary in order to make the title recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent, and is trivially more concise. If we could show that English secondary sources predominantly do add some sort of sign, then there might be a case for adding it here too, but it seems a pointless exercise to me, and likely to yield more heat than light. Historically, we handle such discussions very badly! But this particular case seems to me to have a relatively simple solution provided it is not noticed by editors who might make it a(nother) test case. Andrewa (talk) 21:35, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

PP 19 Vityaz.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:21, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 14 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Uncontested RM. The suggested name has been discussed in earlier RM's too. (closed by non-admin page mover) ❯❯❯ Raydann ^(Talk) 08:08, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PP-19 Vityaz → PP-19-01 Vityaz – Misspelled: Fixed tittle name. PP-19 refers to the PP-19 Bizon.

If you do a quick search, the "Vityaz" is the PP-19-01 variant. However the name (PP-19) refers to the Bizon.

Furthermore, the previous RM discussion to rename the page to Vityaz-SN was based on the Vityaz-SN (version 20) variant. But the article's scope is not merely about that variant specifically. It's the entirety of that submachine gun line. Which stems from the PP-19-01 "Vityaz".

According to Wikipedia:WikiProject Firearms#Variants, "Variants of a model of a firearm such as folding/telescoping stock variants, target versions, variants chambered in a new caliber, compact/carbine variants, models covered by the same factory-issued users manual generally should not receive their own article. Instead, use a section for the variant in the parent firearm's article or consolidate it into a table or the text."

The parent firearm to the Vityaz-SN is the PP-19-01 "Vityaz".

According to Rosoboronexport description, "9mm PP-19-01 submachine gun Vityaz-SN (ver. 20)".

KalashnikovGroup, the submachine gun's manufacturer also has the same description. "PP 19-01 «Vityaz-SN» submachine gun". JTC22 (talk) 05:58, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Firearms has been notified of this discussion. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 08:27, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This was a contested technical request at WP:RM/TR (permalink). Skarmory (talk • contribs) 08:45, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This is a PDW, right?

being capable of shooting 7N31 which has better range and penetration than regular 9x19mm qualifies this to be a pdw 88.128.92.54 (talk) 20:25, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]