Talk:Oregon State University College of Liberal Arts

This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:

endorse, 1 August 2023, see deletion review.
keep, 9 July 2023, see discussion.

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"Top ranking" paragraph

An unregistered editor is insisting that this article include this paragraph, originally placed in a section titled "Top Ranking:"

In 2021, U.S. News & World Report ranked OSU's Ecampus liberal arts college number one in the nation.^[1] The top-ranking by U.S. News & World Report also noted, "Students learn from the same on-campus faculty and earn the same diploma as on-campus students, and they also are supported through digital tutoring, career services, and library resources."

This is problematic for many reasons. First, the text as originally written is wrong. USN&WR didn't rank the Ecampus its number one "liberal arts college in the nation." The cited source - a news article written by the university - clearly says that College Choice ranked the university first in its "25 Best Online Liberal Arts Colleges" in 2021. The quote is also from College Choice, not USN&WR. Second, and more importantly, it's inappropriate to have an entire section devoted to one editor's cherry-picked ranking. A broader section that discusses how the college and its programs rank in the different (reputable) ranking systems may be appropriate; a section (originally titled "Top Ranking") that only includes one ranking that a Wikipedia editor selected that paints the subject of this article in the most positive light possible is not acceptable. ElKevbo (talk) 19:42, 19 May 2021 (UTC) [reply]

References

^ "Oregon State University ranked #1 for Best Online Liberal Arts Colleges". oregonstate.edu. OSU. Retrieved 18 May 2021.

Use of OSU logo on college wiki pages

There should be no conflict or issue using the Oregon State University logo (Oregon_State_University_primary_logo.svg). The colleges are, after all, part of the same public university. Do not remove.Ludviggy (talk)

All uses of non-free content are required to satisfy the ten criteria listed here. Even failing one of those criteria means the non-free use is invalid and can be removed per WP:NFCCE. The bot removing the file is leaving an edit summary each time it does so that contains a link to WP:NFC#Implemetation. Each non-free file is required to have two things: a file copyright license and a separate specific non-free use rationale for each time it's used anywhere on Wikipedia. JJMC89's bot is removing the removing because there is no non-free use rationale for the file's use in this article provided on it's page. Moreover, the bot will keep removing the file each to you re-add with providing the required rationale. It's OK if you didn't know this, but generally it's usually not a really good idea to start edit warring (even if it's unintentional) with a bot because bots don't stop doing what they've been tasked to do as long the "problem" they've been told to look for is still a problem. When you come across a bot repeatedly undoing one of your edits, there's a good chance that the bot is rightly doing so. So, it's better to ask for assitance sooner than later to lessen your chances of being blocked by an administrator.

For reference, in cases like this, an individual college of an university is typically considered to be a "child entity" of the main university per item 17 of WP:NFC#UUI and the primary logo of the university is usually not allowed to be used by default. Instead, a logo specific to the individual college is preferred. So, if the College of Liberal Arts has its own logo or branding (maybe like this), then it should be OK to use that in the infobox. Otherwise, the use of the primary university logo is not automatic and a consensus may need to be established to do so. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:49, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is an Oregon State University wiki page and the graphic used has been approved for this specific use. Please do not remove or you will be reported for edit warring. Ludviggy (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:05, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ludviggy: This is a Wikipedia article written about the college, but it's not the property of the college and the college has no editorial control over any of the article content, including images. All content, text and images, needs to comply with relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and you're continuing to add non-free content to this article without complying with Wikipedia's non-free content use policy. As I explained above, the file's going to keep being removed by the bot as long as you continue to re-add it without adding a corresponding non-free use rationale for this particular use to the file's page. If you continue to revert the bot, your account will end up being blocked by an administrator for disruption. I tried to explain this to you at User talk:JJMC89, but once again you need to slow down and ask questions first before reverting. You're right on the threshold of violating the three-revert rule and one more revert from you will almost certainly lead to your account being blocked. It's much better to ask for assistance when you're faced with a situation that you don't understand instead of just reverting back and forth because the latter almost never ends well. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:20, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please feel free to add exactly what I'm missing from the license info for one of the colleges. If you inspect the license info for the image you will see I have added each of the college wiki pages to the fair-use page unless you have removed that as well. Ludviggy (talk) Ludviggy (talk) 02:10, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is no license involved in fair use.

On the other hand: while certain uses of the seal are restricted by Oregon law, I seriously doubt the design has any copyright protection, and that would seem to me to be the avenue to pursue. Any given rendering of the seal could be copyrighted (e.g. the line drawing we use may have copyright), but it is basically the State Seal of Oregon with a different text on the outer ring, and the state seal apparently goes back to 1859, so it has long been in the public domain. Have a look at Commons:File:Seal_of_Oregon.svg. That seems to me to be a much better way to approach this. - Jmabel | Talk 04:15, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ludviggy: do the schools/colleges have their own division logo? If so, I’ll upload those and use them. Corky 15:07, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Corky. What I am finding is wiki editors are uploading their own combination of their school's logo (not seal) to satisfy these requirements. I see no proof of source here nor an exact copy on the college's page: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:University_of_Iowa_College_of_Engineering_Logo.jpg I'm happy to make these same type of logos for Oregon State's colleges (SVGs) if I'm also allowed to do so. These would be all text and no design graphics just like the Iowa Engineering logo.

Link to the logo I was originally talking about (not seal): https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Oregon_State_University#/media/File:Oregon_State_University_primary_logo.svg Ludviggy (talk) Ludviggy (talk) 21:16, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The University of Iowa Engineering logo is from 2019… it’s in the source provided, though you have to scroll through the profile pictures. They have a newer logo I’ll upload this weekend. As for the OSU logos, if you can find an approved logo via the university’s website, it can be uploaded with the appropriate licensing. Corky 05:14, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ludviggy: I've added the current logo to the page, that was found from the University's website. Thanks, Corky 16:46, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Corky. You are the best!. I'm hoping to find similar ones for each college. I love the one on the Liberal Arts college. ~~ Ludviggy (talk) 16:56, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ludviggy: no problem. I did the engineering college’s logo and will look for the rest this weekend. Corky 20:25, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Corky!~~ Ludviggy (talk) 04:28, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notice of deletion of article (Elkevbo) (Deletion Denied and Closed 7/23)

It appears the Wiki editor Elkevbo has marked this article for deletion in 7 days if certain unidentified editing issues have not been resolved. This is a strange notification for any Wiki page, but even more so for one that represents a public entity like a college. Normally, Wiki editors will identify the precise areas of concern so they may be corrected. I see no history of this here. If Elkebo gives us a specific list of issues to address we will be happy to make these improvements. Can you explain why an article for a public entity, not already discussed elsewhere in Wikipedia would not be considered to be notable? Virtually nothing is duplicated by the "parent" or anywhere else. An immediate threat of deletion is not warranted here. Please respond so we may comply. For comparison and review: UC Berkeley College of Letters and Science Ludviggy (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 02:47, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ludviggy: Who is "we?" ElKevbo (talk) 03:45, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why you are asking this as a Wiki editor? Just like any Wiki article, this one has been touched by many hands (we). Ludviggy (talk) 04:13, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Got it; thanks.

I've proposed this article for deletion because there doesn't seem to be any evidence that it's independently notable. Certainly the larger university is notable but that doesn't mean that each of its constituent colleges are notable. We judge this by the availability of reliable sources that explicitly and substantively discuss the topic and I haven't seen enough sources that do that. In the current article, the only source that seems to do this is a 3-page, internal document written for the university by people associated with it.

This is not unusual. I would wager that most colleges of larger universities, especially colleges of arts and sciences that lack the cohesion of more focused colleges (that often have their own accreditation e.g., business, engineering), are in this situation. They exist in notable organizations and sometimes have their own constituent units (e.g., departments, centers) that are notable but they themselves are not notable. The college at Berkeley that you mentioned may also be another example; I haven't looked at it. ElKevbo (talk) 15:20, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So what you are saying is because Oregon State University only has +33,000 students and the CLA article doesn't break down CLA schools (units) into new articles, the college of liberal arts at this school is not notable??? Sorry, that doesn't add up. It is, in fact, the second-largest college on campus and one of the largest college of liberal arts colleges in the state. That alone should make it notable.

No one in Wikipedia would require a university to break their schools (units) into additional articles just to show they are notable. This seems like a very unusual request that is followed by a very harsh threat of deletion. What is going on here? I don't get it. What else do you want the writers of this page to do to show it is more notable? Please provide a specific example in Wikipedia.

No one is going to consider the UC Berkeley College of Letters and Science "more notable" than OSU's CLA. It holds a higher ranking and attracts more students. Then again, California has much higher population and one would expect that. Again, this has nothing to do with being "more notable" to the reader wanting to know more about OSU. Don't you think they should probably know as much as possible about the second-largest school on campus? By the way this article is growing monthly. I question your reasoning behind this deletion notification. Just because some universities have not expanded their colleges (units) into articles should not mean those who have should be punished. I think most Wiki editors would agree that most universities would like to have an article for each of their colleges, but not all have someone willing to do so. To me, this is why this threat of deletion seems over the top and appears to be a form of censorship that rewards writers who do less. Ludviggy

``` Ludviggy (talk) 17:27, 9 July 2023 (UT

No, I am not saying that "Wikipedia [sh]ould require a university to break their schools (units) into additional articles just to show they are notable." I am saying that this article, like all others, is required to abide by WP:N and as far as I can tell it doesn't. Once again, we need multiple sources that are explicitly about this college - not the university, not individual alumni, and not any other specific part of the college but the college itself.

This isn't about "punishment," it's not about "censorship," and it definitely isn't about what universities would want; this is about adherence to a fundamental guideline in this encyclopedia that requires us to have sufficient substantive sources to write about a topic. If you know of other articles that fail to meet this benchmark then you're welcome to nominate them for deletion or open a discussion about them. ElKevbo (talk) 18:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the PROD tag. The length of this discussion means that the deletion is clearly not uncontroversial enough for PROD, and I suspect Ludviggy would have done so if they knew they could. Feel free to take it to AfD. That said, I largely agree with ElKevbo - he is focusing on the existence of sources, whereas Ludviggy is focusing on WP:ITSIMPORTANT-style arguments that should be given little weight. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:55, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I was probably going to do the same thing. In any case, the article is now at AfD. ElKevbo (talk) 22:37, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Oregon State University College of Liberal Arts article was added to the Oregon State University main article several years ago, along with articles on the Colleges of Engineering, Business, and Science. The goal has been to provide articles for all of OSU's colleges over time, just as many other universities do on Wikipedia. Each of these articles has been growing with the additions from multiple writers - especially the Liberal Arts College article. Inside the article's talk page you will note that there have been no recent discussions about issues from anyone - although old and resolved issues still remain. Elkebvo placed, what I feel is a random and unnecessary, Request for Deletion (7/8/23) on this article due to the subject not being "notable". I, of course, couldn't disagree more and question how it is even possible to consider a major public university's college not "notable". There has been zero correspondence leading up to this notification and no history of abuse with this article. I am dumbfounded by the argument as a whole since hundreds of universities on Wikipedia have an article for their college of liberal arts, college of arts and letters and college of arts and sciences. Why is OSU's CLA article being singled out? Not a single sentence is duplicated on the parent article.

From the "Not Notable" Wikipedia page:

"avoid indiscriminate inclusion of topics" Are these "really" indiscriminate topics?

Schools
History
Academics
Student awards
Budget cuts
Expansion
Notable alumni
Notable faculty

The whole "presumed" and "trivial" question is subjective, to say in the least. We could have the same debate over every single page on Wikipedia, which brings me back to why is this article being singled out with no precedential communication from Elkevbo or other Wikipedia editors. As I remember, all issues have been addressed up until this very random notification for this article. I am not the only writer for this article, but I am a regular contributor. Everything on this page is sourced and are well-known historical facts. If Wikipedia readers believed a source was not accurate, they would have provided a "Talk" comment over the last +2 years so it could be debated or addressed. I see no history of that.

One of the issues we all have when writing an article about a university college is finding secondary sources. Mostly, because mainstream news rarely provides in-depth historical information about individual colleges within universities. In addition, many of the NP archives are paywalled. Does that make individual colleges less "notable?" Of course not, it does however make it more difficult to find secondary sources. I will admit that ALL university college pages are universally low on secondary sources. In most cases, the secondary sources used in the majority of these articles was a rewrite from a college press release. Is that really bad or make it "not notable"? Again, no. College press releases are routinely used as reliable information by all outlets and should be considered a highly reliable source of information by Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ludviggy (talk • contribs) 01:01, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Ludviggy Keep(talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ludviggy (talk • contribs) 03:36, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nice. You're welcome to propose or nominate those articles - or any others that you don't think are about notable subjects - for deletion. ElKevbo (talk) 00:34, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should keep them all. When a Wiki editor, like yourself, identifies issues on a page they should make a list and add it to the article's talk page instead of threatening to delete articles. Doesn't that seem more rational? Ludviggy (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No. I get your point and I'm happy to look into these other articles when I have time but "to correct something in Wikipedia or make a change, you have to do it in every article at the same time across the entire project or not at all" is an unreasonable demand. ElKevbo (talk) 12:52, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This still makes no sense. You aren't explaining why you came to the conclusion to pick OSU's CLA page over many others with similar and many worse offenders in the "notability" test Wikipedia created. There does not appear to be any standardization in your method nor is there any specifics as to what writers can do to correct the article and avoid this threat of deletion. Ludviggy (talk) Ludviggy (talk) 17:50, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This has already been explained several times: There doesn't seem to be any evidence that this subject is independently notable. There don't appear to be reliable sources that explicitly and substantively discuss the topic. The one source that I do see in the article that does that is a 3-page document written by people affiliated with the university for the university. If you can find multiple, independent sources that are reliable and explicitly and substantively discuss this college - not mention it in passing, not about someone who works there or was a student there, and not about the university - then other editors are more likely to think this subject is notable and thus should have its own article.

I haven't nominated those other articles for deletion because I haven't read them. I'm a volunteer here like everyone else and my time and energy are limited. If I read those articles - or any others - and judge them to be similarly deficient with no reasonable chance of being made acceptable then I'll nominate or propose them for deletion, too.

Drop the stick and either add some good sources to this article to convince us that the college meets WP:N or accept that a discussion is necessary to determine if the article should be deleted. Your continued assumptions of bad-faith are tiresome and unproductive. ElKevbo (talk) 21:32, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Elkevbo, it looks like you reduced your Wikipedia notice severity on the UC Berkeley College of Letters and Science page from a threat of deletion to a less severe request for improvement of links. Would you mind making this same change to this article as well since that page offers fewer sources and zero discussions in TALK about your original deletion notification? I do appreciate it. Ludviggy (talk)

I didn't place that template on that article; someone else did so nearly eight years ago. I recently proposed it for deletion but that proposal was contested. That article also lacks independent sources that establish that the subject is notable. But I haven't made time to do my own search for sources so I haven't nominated it for deletion yet.

In any case, I cannot close the deletion discussion for this article. The discussion needs to play out and someone who hasn't participated will close it when it's ready to be closed. Nor would I close the discussion if I could - there is still insufficient evidence that this subject is notable. ElKevbo (talk) 21:53, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, deletion of this article was denied by writer consensus and an overwhelming majority of Wikipedia editors participating in the review. Ludviggy (talk)

Student Awards

Please reserve this section for individual awards that are major awards for "excellence" or similar (not individual works) and are nationally recognized. Orange Media awards should appear on an Orange Media Wiki article and not the college of liberal arts. Criteria for insertion would be: national award, an annual or multi-annual award, names student as first place winner or sole winner, student is a CLA student when award is given, the awarding body is nationally recognized (a major awarding body amongst academia) and the award focuses on "excellence" or similar (not an individual work). The only exception for awards honoring a student's "work" would be if the work makes national news (e.g, appears in the New York Times and is written by a staff writer). Example: CLA student awarded Nobel Peace Prize for protest speech on Ukranian war. Ludviggy (talk)

[1] "Oregon State University ranked #1 for Best Online Liberal Arts Colleges". oregonstate.edu. OSU. Retrieved 18 May 2021.

[1]