Talk:One Thousand and One Nights/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Requested move 29 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Sceptre (talk) 03:25, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

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One Thousand and One Nights → Arabian Nights – Arabian Nights is the WP:COMMONNAME used in English for this collection of stories. Google trends shows that the name Arabian Nights is far more natural as per WP:CRITERIA. Arabian Nights is also more concise than One Thousand and One Nights, also per WP:CRITERIA. Spekkios (talk) 22:46, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

• Sources? Given earlier discussions on this talk page, I'm not sure one name is more common than the other. O.N.R. ^(talk) 10:07, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose, the renowned real name is the traditional name from medieval literature. So familiar and historically significant that it doesn't need an updated English language name to be identifiable or notable. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:12, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

The proposed name isn't an "updated" name, it's been used in the English language since the first translation in the 1700's --Spekkios (talk) 10:07, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Oppose—Arabian Nights already redirects here so none are likely to get lost. —¿philoserf? (talk) 15:18, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - "Arabian Nights" just makes me think the Aladdin song - I would say this is a frequently used (as it says in the article) but not common name. The Google trends search is somewhat flawed, as it is also picking up all the other things called "Arabian Nights" or similar, which, as the disambiguation page shows, are legion. For the same reason, "One Thousand and One Nights" is far more precise and useful as a title, because it does not require disambiguation. So the current title is precise, unambiguous and an accurate translation. Definitely a keep for me. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:24, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - "One Thousand and One Nights" refers WP:PRECISEly to the original set of folktales, or sometimes to direct adaptations thereof, while the "Arabian Nights" title is used more broadly and often refers to content that has loose (or no) connections to the source material. ModernDayTrilobite (talk) 19:42, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

well said —¿philoserf? (talk) 19:44, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose - Quite apart from all the cogent arguments above, there is a substantial body of Persian editors who would be (very understandably) reluctant to accept this name as a primary identification for the article. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 08:25, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's relevent. --Spekkios (talk) 10:07, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sexism, Racism, Misogyny

There should really be a section of this page about the incredibly sexist, racist, and misogynistic nature of some of the stories. Particularly the main Scheherazade plot line. To modern people, even and maybe especially Arabs, it can be shocking and deserves a section of discussion. Sexism is only mentioned one time on the whole page and only in relation to a recent non-sexist edited version of the Tales. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CL8 (talk • contribs) 14:10, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Almost every piece of historical literature is prejudiced in some manner from a modern perspective - which is a bit redundant to explain, but certainly can be explained if there are reliable, secondary sources that bother to. But the topic is also subjective, and modern views don't mean the work was prejudiced in its time period - unless it is detailed as such by scholars. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:26, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

If this was a western work of art I bet you it would be heavily censored, at least "controversial" Stianwick (talk) 17:01, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

This is an anachronistic view of the Tales. They were a (classic) product of cultures that existed centuries before modern Leftist sensibilities. With that said, if you want to add a "modern criticism" section, that would be fine, provided you have the RS to back it up. Xcalibur (talk) 02:46, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

To take just one example: is The Canterbury Tales - the nearest "western" equivalent I can think of offhand, which is also (as one would expect) similarly deeply old-fashioned, subject to this kind of ignorant nonsense? "The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there". People obsessed with an all-pervading sense of the modern "left/right" dichotomy meed to get over this. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 12:10, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

For all the differences, I'd say that's a good comparison, since they're both anthologies with a frame story. And yes, you need to consider the past on its own merits, rather than give in to the temptation to see it through the lens of current attitudes. Btw, you might notice that I'm perfectly capable of working well with others, depending on the context. Xcalibur (talk) 01:11, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Related media: Video Games / Anime

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Shantae

The Shantae series draw from One Thousand and One Nights

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Magi:_The_Labyrinth_of_Magic

Inspired by Arabian Nights Shafi96 (talk) 20:16, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Persian

The Persian translation of this work is from the Arabic - the earlier Persian prototype (Hezār Afsān) is covered in its own section. Note in particular that

• "No physical evidence of the Hezār Afsān has survived, so its exact relationship with the existing later Arabic versions remains a mystery."

--Soundofmusicals (talk) 22:46, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

It's often the case that historical texts have ambiguous origins. This is especially so when it's a compilation with multiple authors adding to it over centuries. We can surmise that there were Indian, Persian, and Arabic sources for this great work, and perhaps other sources further afield (Ottoman Turkey, Central Asia?). There may have also been translations back & forth and a complex web of influences, which is difficult at best to sort out. All we can do is work with what we've got. Xcalibur (talk) 03:28, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Precisely the point we must make to all 'patriotic" Persian folk who assume that because the frame story has a Persian setting the origins MUST be Persian. At best it ain't necessarily so. We DO give Hezār Afsān a fair go, I think. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 11:45, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it's covered fairly. It's clear that Persian language, culture, literary influence, etc was historically prestigious and widespread, see Persianate_society. Thus, a Persian-influenced frame story only narrows it down to somewhere between the Ottoman Empire and Mughal India. Xcalibur (talk) 13:43, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

I'd suggest reading the literature of Iran and all the other countries you think 1001 nights originated from. Also the main story is totally Iranian with all of its characters also being so. The Arabic version was a translation and as much as some prople like to say otherwise, it doesn't change this fact. Arabs got rid of the original which is why we lost many of the stories. Some stories were later added again simply because people kept narrating the stories orally claiming these stories were also in the 1001 nights. It's about time some of us got a new hobby and let go of other countries' heritage. 91.98.32.182 (talk) 12:26, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

"Many" or "Most" stories Arabic folk Tales?

Restored revision 1165772977 by Samfedo (talk): Already pretty neutral - "most" has been there for years now - unless doubts about the source are based on an actual reading of its text rather than a "thought"? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 10:20, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi Soundofmusicals, thanks for your remarks, however, i would draw your attention on the fact that the source has no page number, and as far as i have seen, there is no such thing as "Most" in it. Please let me know if you think i'm mistaken. Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:38, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Actually we may even need another reference - as "many/most" not strictly linked to this ref.? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 10:23, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, when a source has no page number, it's quite hard to find the relevant part of it that supports the claim, but as far as i've been able to check, "many/most" is not mentioned, this is why i tried to neutralize the sentence.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:42, 22 July 2023 (UTC)