Talk:Onam/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Onathappan

Somebody mentioned in this talk page "Onathappan is considered a symbol of Mahabali in some parts of Kerala while at certain other areas, it represents Vamanan". Can anyone please shed light on which traditions or districts consider Onathappan a symbol of Mahabali, and which traditions or districts consider Onathappan a symbol of Vamanan? 103.148.20.126 (talk) 13:14, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Changing infobox

It can't be said that Onam is celebrated by all Malayalam speakers(Malayalis). The Malayalam speakers in Lakshadweep not celebrate Onam festival. Also the Muslim community of Kerala make onapukalam or other Onam associated things.But some Muslims celebrate it as a CULTURAL festival rathar than RELIGIOUS.So in the infobox it should be mentioned that Onam is Observed by Kerala Hindus as a religious festival and non Hindus as cultural festival Ruwenzari (talk) 11:14, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

It is obvious that Muslims celebrate it as a cultural festival. What is the exact change you want to make to the infobox? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:34, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I want the same info as there is on the christanity wikipage that it is celebrated religiously by christains and culturally by other people of other religious dominion. Or Wikipedia will cross all the bottom line of Hipocrisy in the tutelage of editor such as yourself my lord. Oxymoronoridiot (talk) 03:26, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Onam is purely a Vaishnavite festival

I would like to draw everyone's attention to the fact that Onam started as a Vaishnava festival and it remained so until recent politicians started to misinterpret history. The earliest known mention of Onam is in Maduraikanchi, the Sangham work. Onam is mentioned in Maduraikanchi from verses 590 to 599. It is as follows:

Maduraikanchi (Verses: 590-599)[1]

Tamil Script	Roman Script	Translation
கணம் கொள் அவுணர்க் கடந்த பொலந்தார் மாயோன் மேய ஓண நன்னாள் கோணம் தின்ற வடு ஆழ் முகத்த சாணம் தின்ற சமம் தாங்கு தடக்கை மறம் கொள் சேரி மாறு பொரு செருவில் மாறாது உற்ற வடுப்படு நெற்றி சுரும்பு ஆர் கண்ணிப் பெரும் புகல் மறவர் கடுங்களிறு ஓட்டலின் காணுநர் இட்ட நெடுங்கரைக் காழகம் நிலம் பரல் உறுப்ப, கடுங்கட் தேறல் மகிழ் சிறந்து திரிதரக்	Kaṇam koḷ avuṇark kaṭanta polantār Māyōṉ mēya ōṇa naṉṉāḷ Kōṇam tiṉṟa vaṭu āḻ mukatta Cāṇam tiṉṟa camam tāṅku taṭakkai Maṟam koḷ cēri māṟu poru ceruvil, Māṟātu uṟṟa vaṭuppaṭu neṟṟi Curumpu ār kaṇṇip perum pukal maṟavar Kaṭuṅkaḷiṟu ōṭṭaliṉ kāṇunar iṭṭa Neṭuṅkaraik kāḻakam nilam paral uṟuppa, Kaṭuṅkaṭ tēṟal makiḻ ciṟantu tiritarak,	On Ōnam day, the birthday of Thirumal (Vishnu) adorned with a gold garland who destroyed groups of Avunars (Asuras), in the settlement of brave warriors adorned with bee-swarming flowers with marks on their faces caused by curved swords, scars on their foreheads, and big hands that bore battles, there are elephant fights between rival groups, and spectators drunk with strong liquor roam on the ground with pebbles that hurt them, laid down along the long, dark cloth boundaries to protect them from the elephants.

This clearly shows that Onam was never been a harvesting festival, but a religious festival of Vaishnavite people. -- 99v (talk) 20:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

That appears to be WP:OR on your part. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 20:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Not exactly, researcher A. M. Kurup did the original research in his books:

1. The Sociology of Onam

2. Onam: A Festival of Kerala. --99v (talk) 07:58, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Quotes would help clarify the situation.

Are you discussing it's origins only? --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 16:45, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

There is no denying that Bali and Vamana are part of Vaishnavite tradition. But Onam ஓணம் ഓണം is harvest festival suited to the seasons of Kerala. Also Age of Maduraikanchi is exaggerated. (Just like thirukural.) And the original verse in Tamil you cited here doesn't mentions the words Vishnu or Thirumaal. It says 'maayon'. Maaayon is identified with Krishna. But some scholars Maayon is also Tamil deity which was later assimilated with Hindu pantheon.

So please don't call it pure Vaishnavite. Purely Vaishnavite festival that commemorates Bali is Balipratipada which is not celebrated on the same day as Onam. ChandlerMinh (talk) 15:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC) Also the term Onam is the name of a nakshatra. There are 27/28 nakshatras that appears every month. The poem doesn’t specify the month or the season(ritu).

Ōṇaṁ is a harvest festival

Ōṇaṁ is a Harvest festival suited with the seasons of Kerala. The Bali myth was added later. There is no denying that both Bali and Vamana are part of Vaishnavite tradition. But to claim that Ōṇaṁ is a purely Vaishnavite festival is ridiculous. If that was the case, the related Balipratipada and Ōṇaṁ would have been celebrated on the same day. Ōṇaṁ falls on a dry period of the year between two rainy seasons. Climate of a region that lies between a Western ghat and the Arabian sea cannot be compared with every part of India. Rain patterns here are different. Therefore the argument that "no where in India harvest happens in August-September" doesn't stand. Malayalam calendar, and many of its Hindu counterparts, is not in sync with celestial events(for an example, Vishu/Bihu is celebrated more than 20 days after March equinox―'Vishu' short for Sanskrit विषुवम means equinox). India got a standardized Hindu national calendar of India post-1947; before that each state commemorated festivities based on the calendars regulated by astrologers/astronomers of those particular states. ChandlerMinh (talk) 15:49, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

ChandlerMinh, Got any reliable source that will back up your assertions? BhaskaraPattelar (talk) 11:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

ONAM is a HINDU FESTIVAL celebrated during harvest. It is being celebrated from the time when the entire land was inherited by HINDUS. Later on other religions came and they also started celebrating these festivals to blend in. Raw Black Tiger (talk) 20:09, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 21 August 2021

It's a hindu harvest festival, but people are trying to edit the page with wrong conspiracy theories to give out wrong information. 2409:4073:4E95:B74:C215:A854:63F3:ED12 (talk) 04:39, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JavaHurricane 05:46, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 August 2021

Change word mythology to history, this our history True seeker Man (talk) 05:47, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

I request you to do changes that I suggest word mythology is destructive True seeker Man (talk) 05:49, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. —Sirdog (talk) 06:56, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 September 2022

Remove “Hindu” in the first opening sentence. Onam is not a religious festival but a cultural one celebrated by Malayalees of all religious groups 76.24.31.154 (talk) 22:55, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:09, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Why the word ‘harvest’ as removed?

Most of the sources cited in the opening paragraph says that Onam is a harvest festival. The Hindu link cited says this:

Linked with the harvest season of Kerala, most Malayalees observe all ten days of the harvest festival.

The Encyclopedia of Hinduism says this:

Onam is commonly described as a harvest festival, but is celebrated publicly in many different ways throughout Kerala

. While the first statement clearly says that it is a harvest festival. Second statement is not denying that it is indeed a harvest festival.

Kurup 1977, The Sociology of Onam says that “Thus, Onam is considered associated with the ushering in of the new year, a prosperous harvest, thanks for a bumper crop, and above all an auspicious occasion to start the agricultural operations of the season and that of the year.”

First line of the page of South Asian Folklore: An Encyclopedia says:

Onam is the harvest festival celebrated in Kerala, on India's southwest coast, over a number of days during the month of Cinnam (August-September)

When these many sources cited in the first paragraph is telling that Onam is a harvest festival why is my edit which said the same thing being changed? I was also not trying to disassociate Onam and Hinduism. Purpose of my edit was simply to make sure that Onam is not being read as a festival exclusively celebrated by Hindus. Which is why in my last edit I mentioned that Onam is “traditionally associated with Hindu culture of Kerala”. but all these were undid claiming lack of consensus.

@Ranjran:@99v: @Kautilya3: @Ms Sarah Welch: @Shrikanthv: @D4iNa4:

Two suggestions for Lead :

Onam (Malayalam: ഓണം, romanized: Ōṇaṁ, IPA: [oːɳɐm]) is an annual harvest festival celebrated by Malayali people of Indian state of Kerala. Traditionally associated with Hindu culture of Kerala, Onam is also the official festival of the state government and includes a spectrum of cultural events. Onam commemorates Vamana and King Mahabali.

The reason for this is that Onam is not only celebrated Hindus. I am not attempting to secularise the festival. But when a celebration is not limited to a certain religion, it shouldn’t named after that particular religion.

• For example in the Wikipedia article about Christmas, the word ‘Christian’ is not used in the first sentence because celebration of Christmas is not limited to Christians.
• The lead of article Diwali does not say “Hindu festival of light”, because its celebration is not limited to Hindus

When all the source in the first paragraph says that Onam is harvest festival here are some facts about other Indian festivals associated harvest/agriculture:

• The opening sentence in the article Vaisakhi doesn’t say “Hindu celebration of spring harvest”
• The opening sentence in the article about Bihu doesn’t use the word ‘Hindu’
• The opening sentence in the article about Magh Bihu doesn’t use the word ‘Hindu’
• The opening sentence in the article about Makar Sankranti doesn’t use the word ‘Hindu’

OR:

Onam is an annual Indian harvest festival celebrated predominantly by the Hindus of Kerala.

ChandlerMinh (talk) 14:50, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia has become rather slippery now due to the massive explosion of right-wing jingoism. If you care about a page, you need to watch it constantly and revert all forms of vandalism. I restored the version on 7 September. Perhaps some good edits have been reverted too. You are welcome to redo them. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:04, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I support the 2nd proposal after all discussion above. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 12:46, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 August 2023

Undo changes made by user Neutralhappy on 1 August 2023‎, 09:03 (IST) to original version - 1 August 2023‎ 02:15 (IST) by ToadetteEdit (i.e remove section Onam and Islam)

User Neutralhappy has a habitual tendency to insert Islamic point of views related to non-adherence (kufr and kafir) to topics of Hindu traditions in an effort to undermine the secular nature of the cultural festival of Onam and to create further divide in the mind of the reader by portraying it as a religious festival that is not to be celebrated by followers of other religions:

https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Onam&diff=prev&oldid=1167856189

This is further evidenced by the below edits on respective pages where the same content (related to kufr and kafir) has been copy-pasted with minor modifications:

Onam:

https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Onam&diff=prev&oldid=1167853057

Nilavilakku:

https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Nilavilakku&diff=prev&oldid=1168151757

Raising this edit request as user Neutralhappy has used their position as a privileged user to apply semi-protection to make their changes on the Onam page, while others are rendered incapable to undo any changes made. Pgp007 (talk) 04:38, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: We won't edit war for you. Please start a discussion on the talk page and see what the others have to say about it. M.Bitton (talk) 11:33, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Okay, thank you for taking a look. Pgp007 (talk) 14:17, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Why was the "Onam and Islam" section added?

Below section was added on July 30th and since updated on Aug 1st, 2023 explaining why it is forbidden for Muslims to celebrate Onam:

https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Onam&diff=prev&oldid=1167853057

Onam has been celebrated by the people Kerala irrespective of religion for generations and is the officially recognised state festival, until recent political events and religious narratives such as these started to give it a communal flavour. The spirit of Onam itself promotes unity among people and invites everyone as equal like in the times of King Mahabali.

An entire section dedicated to why it must not be celebrated by Muslims is in poor taste, that too added almost 1 month prior to Onam being celebrated this year has not been done with the best intentions at heart. Please discuss. Pgp007 (talk) 12:03, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Here it says in a Wikipedia article "There are various reasons for removing content from an article. Regardless of the reason, it should be described in the edit summary. If there is any doubt the removal may be controversial, or if it has been restored following a previous removal, it should be discussed on the page's talk page prior to removal." The given reasons for removal here are : WP:USI, WP:IAI, WP:ANOTHER, WP:IRI, WP:ICW, WP:AOA . Considering these reasons there is no need to delete my edit.

Here it says in a Wikipedia article : "If an edit war occurs between just two users over content, it shall be discussed in hopes of a settlement from among the community.

It is preferable that good-faith additions remain in the article pending consensus, unless:

The article is a biography of a living person, and the material is potentially harmful

The neutrality of the material may be in question

The copyright status of the material is in question

One or more external links are in question

Material clearly not added in good faith should be removed pending consensus."

As for month, truth will not change as month changes. What actually changes is the evidence. So we have to discuss about the evidence.

My edit was in good faith (WP:GF) because being in good faith according to me is being ready to chage according to evidence and need which I adhered to it.

Reasons for addition of the content.

1) Need here is that people get maximum knowledge with the verifiable source.

2) Here it is indeed a need that people get rid of any likely misunderstanding that Onam is celebrated followers of all religions including Islam according to religion.

3)Another need is to inform people about the reality that Onam celebration by Muslim is opposed by Muslim scholars.

4) Followers (scholars) of Islam have notably opposed Onam celebration by Muslim. So without acknowledging this fact with its relevance the knowledge about Onam is incomplete. Several news reports were also made on similar incidents.

5) Here it is indeed a need to clarify the misunderstanding that all Muslims celebrate Onam.

Even Wikipedia is to impart knowledge. Acting against this is in bad faith.

It is quite possible that the public would see only those who celebrate or do an festival/activity and avoid noticing those who do not do that even if they are the great majority. And the attention would start only when the those who do not do speak up.

The spirit of any religion or culture does not necessarily prove one has not said something; or there is no Earth or something else.

The views of the videos of Islamic scholars on YouTube exhorting to refrain from Onam celebration clearly shows that it is widely known there is a view among Muslims that they are not permitted to take part in non-Muslims' celebrations like Onam and Christmas.

If one is not aware of these things, that does not prove one's view is right. The only way to solve this is to get the evidence.

Emotion, spirit, attitude, intention, etc., should be replaced with the evidence. Then only even the very idea of Wikipedia will succeed.

In short verifiable source (evidence) matters and nothing more.

If you have any further doubt, please free to discuss it and clarify the misunderstanding. Neutralhappy (talk) 08:06, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

The amount of contradictions and conflicting thoughts in your reply is baffling, but not unexpected given the narrow viewpoint through which you are viewing things. The content added in the edits of 30th July 2023 directly conflicts with "The neutrality of the material may be in question". There is no misunderstanding here and the intentions in your previous edits and revision history shows. Allow me to explain your logic and thinking process:

- Every festival page on Wikipedia needs to include strict adherence rules for followers of other religions (Or is it exclusive to Onam?). Shouldn't this be informed by the preachers through churches, mosques and temples and not through Wikipedia that should provide information on the festival and not why it should not be celebrated?

- Festivals like Thrissur Pooram should not involve the Muslim community who craft most of the pandal works as it is considered sinful in Islam.

- No human should partake in any celebratory activity of others and should read up on their religious texts and respective articles on rules of celebration prior to being involved. (This is not practical and is an extreme line of thought seeking more control over personal freedoms and more division.)

A person coming to read an article on Wikipedia on Onam is most likely coming to read about its history and cultural significance, not to read about why it is not celebrated by some. Would one read the Wikipedia page of Ramadan expecting information about how Christians, Hindus or Sikhs do not celebrate it. It might be difficult to comprehend the fact that yes - some people would prefer to partake in others festivals, but isn't that their personal preference? Calling it sinful and creating a sense of guilt of offending a God is definitely not in good faith. Would individuals who previously celebrated said festivals become sinned, are their younger generations already sinned - who is keeping the tab?

Pages for Christmas, Diwali etc do not contain any information regarding non celebratory reasons for people of other religion - should these also be updated? As Islam is against its followers from celebrating any festival by other religions, would you now recommend editing all pages on Wikipedia with strict adherence rules for all and vice versa (starting with Onam and Islam, Christmas and Islam, Diwali and Islam etc)? If other religions do not consider it sinful to celebrate Muslim festivals, shouldn't that be included as well in all Wiki pages related to Muslim festivals like Ramadan, Eid etc - ever wondered why such info doesn't exist on Wikipedia pages or rather doesn't need to exist? All this sounds like creating a problem where there isn't one - not only on Wikipedia but out in the real world, which then creeps into articles, videos and discussions like these. Wonder why such information on "non-celebration" is not preached to non-Muslims.

The revisionist ideas in your edits made on 30th July 2023 were focused on strict adherence, control, segregation and further division of people based on religion and provided religious excuses to do so. This further alienates people of Muslim community and a reader of the same faith now has another reason for hate. The word "sinful" was used 4 times in your revision, thereby creating a negative connotation related to Onam - a festival that invites people of all faith to partake and promotes unity. Unfortunately the intentions behind such veiled remarks and revisions are abundantly clear. It sounds like the goal is to create further divide, not unite. The voices and opinions of those in news articles and YouTube videos may have been heard, but has this been discussed in a public forum and brought to a consensus among the Muslim community or is this seed being sown through this Wikipedia Onam page? Which is next - Christmas?

A religion that presupposes every other religion to be sinful and attempts to create a moral high ground, has already deeply failed in creating an environment of universal brotherhood and harmony - the goal should be peaceful coexistence, not further division and exclusion. I would recommend excluding your edits as of July 30th 2023 as it doesn't bring anything constructive to the article on Onam that wasn't previously stated in regards to challenges with followers of other religions - unless further adding oil to the fire is the exact intent. I invite further discussion and consensus from users of all religious faiths into this. Pgp007 (talk) 11:49, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I hope this finds in you good health and high spirits. No one can debate or argue without a COMMON GROUND. I am happy to inform you that in Wikipedia there are different articles on how to write an article and what things are to considered. I humbly request you to read such articles.

All discussion should be based on a COMMON GROUND. Hence there would be less scope to argue about. It is perfectly normal that everyone is likely to make the mistake. But learning about this would solve the problem. And again remember without a COMMON GROUND we here or anyone cannot debate. Like anyone else it is normal that your earlier reply missed that thing of an applicable COMMON GROUND. Here are given some of them. Please read them and try to contradict one's opinion in Wikipedia based on them. So I humbly request you to reply to this quoting from such Wikipedia articles. Like anyone else, a new comer in Wikipedia would not be aware of such things. It is not your fault. In short I humbly request you to read them and refute my argument based on that. Wikipedia:Essays in a nutshell/Civility "Many difficult users tend to block progress, and some simply want to stop others from writing articles. Confrontations with them can be utterly demoralizing and make people want to abandon Wikipedia. Again, the interactions with difficult users can be so unpleasant that many people have quit. Consequently, because of that focus, the simple act of ignoring troublesome users, and moving on to improve another article, constitutes a total victory over their attempts to block other people from working on articles." :

Wikipedia:Avoiding difficult users#Improving the next article is the ultimate win

"It might be tempting to try to reform the difficult users. A moderate amount of personal discussion, with those users, could be considered as beneficial to Wikipedia." : Wikipedia:Avoiding difficult users#Say a prayer but don't minister to users

Notability is not needed to be applied to the the content in an article, but to the article itself. "On Wikipedia, notability is a test used by editors to decide whether a given topic warrants its own article.

Information on Wikipedia must be verifiable; if no reliable, independent sources can be found on a topic, then it should not have a separate article. Wikipedia's concept of notability applies this basic standard to avoid indiscriminate inclusion of topics. Article and list topics must be notable, or "worthy of notice". Determining notability does not necessarily depend on things such as fame, importance, or popularity—although those may enhance the acceptability of a subject that meets the guidelines explained below." : Wikipedia:Notability "General scope of facts and information to include

Some questions to help you understand. Should Wikipedia include everything? well, obviously not.

Should it include all information? well, no, since that includes people's phone numbers, dry-cleaning, etc etc. so again, obviously not.

Should it include all facts? well, no, but now we are getting closer. it should include those facts that are of historical, societal, scientific, intellectual or academic significance" : Wikipedia:What to include#Overview

Any discussion without a COMMON GROUND are futile and need to be rejected. Neutralhappy (talk) 19:04, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Funny how you try to twist the narrative by portraying ones duration on the platform as a mistake, while your own previous reply is filled with mistakes, incoherent sentences and are direct copy paste of templates - so you didn't even have the patience to type out a proper reply. Common sense and basic human psychology is enough to identify the red flags that are being hoisted and the narrative that is being built. What is sad is that you are compelled to highlight the negativity, like most others - typical sheep mentality.

Further arguments are indeed futile and a waste of both our time and energy, as I do not see a common ground while you are hell bent on imposing your views on "why Onam shouldn't be celebrated" and the words you have used, along with the sinful depiction of Onam cannot be agreed upon. That said, I cannot claim to be a representative of the Onam page, I would leave it unto posterity and other editors to be the better judges.

Lastly, I would invite you to see beyond any books, go outside, touch grass and come back to reality. This planet is inhabited by all humans, the answer is not in chaos, division and hate, it should be in peace, brotherhood and love. I am a firm believer in Karma, you get what you give - whether it's good or bad. Pgp007 (talk) 20:26, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Here's a common ground:

- Instead of going into a multi paragraph lecture of 705 words with full statements on kufr, kafir, sujood etc (which is not relevant for those celebrating Onam, but only in the celebration of it by a Muslim), recommend reducing repetition and sticking to the point by summarizing the essence of why it is considered sinful in Islam in simple words (that Islam forbids the following of rituals from other faiths) so the reader has clarity, add it under "Muslims and Onam Celebration" and cite the sources instead of a whole section for Onam and Islam (as Onam has nothing to do with Islam and vice versa).

- Condense the statements of various "federations/groups" under a single section as was previously done in "Similar objections" to prevent repetition.

This can then be brought to consensus in future by other users and editors depending on its relevance. Pgp007 (talk) 06:18, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your better way of replying.

First of all, I clarify that I did not say any factual error in my previous replies.

The content I had posted was already shortened. Further shortening would cause confusion. So I added explanation about it.

Moreover attributing one's statement to the one would make it more authentic and clear.

We cannot attribute one group's statement to another one.

Go through this page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Writing_better_articles#Tone and others and suggest an edit that would be good.

We need to welcome the useful edit.

I thank your effort to suggest an edit.

I thank your effort to suggest a useful edit.

Thanks Neutralhappy (talk) 12:49, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

I hope you see the faults in your revisions by now and why it was wrong and ill-conceived in the first place. Furthermore, you asked for a "common ground" - I gave you one and "reciprocated the courtesy" by not reverting your hateful and dishonourable revisions, but you went ahead and imposed your own version discarding all my suggestions.

Just because one has made 3000 edits and knows Wikipedia shortcuts do not make them right (this is ingrained in Wikipedia's ideals for a good editor), but this was done multiple times in your previous replies.

I invite you to take this opportunity to see the lack of "good faith" in your judgements, reasoning and way of thinking, not everything needs to fit your way of thinking. Just by thinking you are right you don't become right, because so did Hitler. Pgp007 (talk) 05:44, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

In spite of multiple requests to Neutralhappy to not resort to edit-warring, the religious rhetoric to portray Onam as "wrong, forbidden and sinful" has been repeatedly imposed multiple times. This is not acceptable behavior and the narrative to portray Onam as sinful, especially in the month of Onam celebration when most users will be visiting the page and guilt tripped to see such wrongful and inappropriate depiction is downright not in "good faith". This is the second such edit made by the user on a Hindu tradition, the other being on the Nilavilakku page:

https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Nilavilakku&diff=prev&oldid=1168151757

At this rate, such one sided narrative will be pushed on to every other celebrations to depict festivals celebrated by other religions as wrong, forbidden and sinful. I sincerely believe Wikipedia is not the place for such religious preaching and the language used in these revisions since July 30th, 2023 is selfish, unrespectful and is designed to hurt the religious sentiments of others. Please discuss. Pgp007 (talk) 08:24, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Onam is a Hindu Festival

The following part for the opening part for the article on Onam might be a better one.

"Onam ( IPA: [oːɳɐm]) is an annual Hindu harvest festival celebrated mainly in Kerala. A major annual event for Keralites, it is the official festival of the state and includes a spectrum of cultural events.Onam"

There are so many reasons why Onam is a Hindu festival.

1) Common sense says Onam is a Hindu religious festival. Read the article on Onam.

2) There is a consensus by those who are biased towards evidence (truth) that it is a Hindu festival.

3) Sangh Parivar says it is of Hindus.

4) Muslim scholars have said celebrating Onam is haram or to avoid it since it is a Hindus' festival.

5) The article on Onam itself contains a statement in the context of Christians in which Onam is referred to as of Hindus. :

"Onam is a "popular major Hindu festival in Kerala", states Christine Frost, but one that is also celebrated by other communities with "much zest alongside Hindus". The festival is celebrated in BECs (Basic Ecclesial communities) in Trivandrum with local rituals, according to Latin Catholic Bishop Selvister Ponnumuthan. These traditions, according to Selvister Ponnumuthan, start with the lighting of Nilavilakku, an arati that includes waving of flowers (pushparati) over the Bible, eating the Onam meal together with the Hindus as a form of "communion of brothers and sisters of different faiths". The significance of these practices are viewed by BECs in Trivandrum as a form of integration with Hindus, mutual respect and sharing a tradition."

6) Wikipedia article Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section says it a summery in the beginning : "In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents." If we consider this in the article Onam it has stated it is of Hindus. Moreover the article itself is contains so much content that shows that Onam is related to Hindus.

7) If non-Hindus celebrate Onam, that will not make it of non-Hindus. So is Christmas.

8) Moreover articles on other festivals like Christmas contains reference that links the festival to a particular religion in the opening sentence itself. Not doing that would be misleading. Similarly the same thing should be applied here in the article Onam also.

9) Introducing Onam without saying Onam is related to Hindus would likely make a misunderstanding that it has nothing to do with Hindus or Hinduism. So it gives a false notion that Onam is like Indian independence day.

10) In the talk page those who demand to avoid using the word "Hindu" in the opening sentence of the article Onam is not valid. That means they are demanding based on lies that Wikipedia article on religious festivals like Christmas does not refer to the respective religion which is clearly false since such articles clearly links saying Jesus Christ or any any other word that links the respective religion. This practice needed to kept in all such articles. If not such articles' opening sentence will be misleading. Such misleading article are not to taken as a criteria to follow.

11) Reports about Onam celebrated by all can be added in a note.

12) Reliable sources also says Onam is a Hindu festival.

13) Furthermore a significant addition if any stating that Onam celebration by Muslims is opposed by Muslim scholars could be summarised as that "Onam is not celebrated especially by Muslims" since all would not celebrate any festival if such Muslim scholars opinion cannot be added in the article.

14) Adding a sentence would be highly useful in the opening sentence that it of Hindus if a portion about "Onam and Islam" is not allowed.

15) We need to keep a practice similar to that of stating Homeopathy, Unani, Ayurveda are pseudoscience here also. If that is possible there the same would be possible here also. No need to fall for political agendas.

16) A Wikipedia article says this :

"General scope of facts and information to include

Some questions to help you understand. Should Wikipedia include everything? well, obviously not.

Should it include all information? well, no, since that includes people's phone numbers, dry-cleaning, etc etc. so again, obviously not.

Should it include all facts? well, no, but now we are getting closer. it should include those facts that are of historical, societal, scientific, intellectual or academic significance" : Wikipedia:What to include#Overview

Hence all relevant facts that are of historical, societal, scientific, intellectual or academic significance should be allowed. Acting against this is in not in good faith.

17) Most Muslims in Kerala follow Shafi'i madhab. Ibn Hajar al-Haytami, who is the foremost source of Shafi'i madhab, says about three conditions where while participating in non-Muslims' celebration or the other (non-celebratory activity) where in one case the peron would become a murthad (apostate), in the second another condition the act would be sinful but does not constitute apostasy and in the yet another there it would neither constitute apostasy nor would it become sinful.

18) The following part of the article on Onam also says the following which shows the Onam is indeed viewed as a thing of Hindus.

"During the Onam, Keralite Hindus install an image of Thrikkakara Appan or Onatthappan (Vishnu in the form of Vamana) in their home just as Hindus install images or murtis of Lord Ganesha on the Ganesha Chaturthi festival elsewhere.

Many lamps are lit in Hindu temples of Kerala during this celebration. A palmyra tree is erected in front of temples and surrounded by a wooden balustrade and covered with dry palmyra leaves. It is lit with a torch and burned to ashes to signify that King Mahabali went to Patala as a sacrifice."

19) The article itself contains so much reference to Hindu mythology connected to Onam Neutralhappy (talk) 13:22, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

20) An edit by an editor who on 4 August 2023 belongs to the group of AUTOPATROLLED, EXTENDED CONFIRMED USERS, PENDING CHANGES REVIEWERSand ROLLBACKERS on 2 February 2033 restored an edit in which Onam is referred to as a Hindu religious festival. See the revision as of 00:25, 2 February 2023 in whose opening sentence it says Onam is predominantly celebrated by Hindus of Kerala.

And the very next edit on 15 February 2023 by an anonymous user with an IP address removed that Onam is predominantly celebrated by Hindus of Kerala from the opening sentence. Neutralhappy (talk) 15:08, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

21) Whether Onam is a religious Hindu festival or Hindu cultural festival or seasonal Hindu festival or any other type of Hindu festival, we can summerise that Onam is a Hindu festival.

22) This edit summery as of 04:45, 25 January 2023 conveys that there was a consensus that Onam is predominantly celebrated by Hindus. Neutralhappy (talk) 01:14, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

23) The opening sentence can be rewritten or replaced with the following:

Onam ( IPA: [oːɳɐm]) is an annual Hindu harvest festival celebrated predominantly by the Hindus of Kerala. Neutralhappy (talk) 10:28, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Removed ‘Hindu’ from lead.

The term Hindu is not required in the lead. Even pages like Vaisakhi does not use the word ‘Hindu’ in the lead (or any other religion’s name). While many Onam traditions are obviously derived from Hindu mythology, the fact of the matter is that the celebration is older than the first usage of the word Hindu as the name of a religion. Dont change the lead. The obsession with the use of the term ‘Hindu’ is due to insecurity of some people that it has been appropriated by other religions. But this is Wikipedia. We only rely on published reliable source and not twitter threads. ChandlerMinh (talk) 06:46, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

See WP:IDONTLIKE, and read Talk:Onam/Archive_1#Vaman where dozens of scholarly sources were provided for supporting it as a "Hindu" festival. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 07:58, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I didn’t say it is not a a Hindu festival. The Hinduness of the festival is mentioned in Infobox and elsewhere in the article. All i said is that the deliberate inclusion of word Hindu in the lead is being done to prove certain political points. Article about Christmas does not use the word ‘Christian’ in the first sentence because people other than Christians also celebrate Christmas. Similarly Onam is also celebrated by people other than Hindus. ChandlerMinh (talk) 09:07, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Both sources cited in the first sentence (even before my edit) uses the word ‘harvest’ more than the word ‘Hindu’. But you undid a revision that contained that word. That revision also lead to change in the second paragraph where I did some copyediting such as the upper-casing proper nouns. ChandlerMinh (talk) 09:38, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Doesn't mean it becomes associated with other religions. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 23:04, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

What word of mine says it is associated with other religions? ChandlerMinh (talk) 11:54, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I have changed the lead as following:

Onam (Malayalam: ഓണം, romanized: Ōṇaṁ, IPA: [oːɳɐm]) is an annual harvest festival celebrated by Malayali people of Indian state of Kerala. Traditionally associated with Hindu culture of Kerala, Onam is also the official festival of the state government and includes a spectrum of cultural events. Onam commemorates Vamana and King Mahabali.

One step at a time! That is Christian evangelism works! Calling Hindu festival Hindu has political motivations! If it is a Hindu festival why do others have a problem calling so? Does not by itself say something? That non Hindus want to remove the Hindu and appropriate the festival? Onam is a Hindu festival celebrated in Kerala by people also by people who were not Hindus now but were Hindus before! But do they celebrate it the same way it is supposed to be celebrated? Do they do Bali and Vaamana pooja? Just partying is not celebration of a festival. A festival should be celebrated in its traditional way with Vedic rituals otherwise it is appropriation by missionaries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.171.59.102 (talk) 13:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

the reason for this change is that Onam is not only celebrated Hindus. I am not attempting to secularise the festival. But when a celebration is not limited to a certain religion, it shouldn’t named after that particular religion.

• For example in the Wikipedia article about Christmas, the word ‘Christian’ is not used in the first sentence because celebration of Christmas is not limited to Christians.
• The lead of article Diwali does not say “Hindu festival of light”, because its celebration is not limited to Hindus
• The first sentence in the article Vaisakhi doesn’t say “Hindu celebration of spring harvest”
• The first sentence in the article about Bihu doesn’t use the word ‘Hindu’
• The first sentence in the article about Magh Bihu doesn’t use the word ‘Hindu’
• The first sentence in the article about Makar Sankranti doesn’t use the word ‘Hindu’

ChandlerMinh (talk) 10:13, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

It does not make any sense to use other articles as indicators when you are changing long-standing lead here. You need to stop adding new sections for discussing same concern. I find it appalling that you are cherrypicking article names. Raksha Bandhan, Ganesh Chaturthi and many others use the word "Hindu" on opening sentence. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 23:04, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

There is no cherry picking here. You will notice it if you understand the difference. Most of the festivals i picked are comparable with Onam as they have some associations with agriculture and harvest. On the contrary the festivals you chose are not comparable to Onam. There is a literally term called ‘Onakkoyth’ in Malayalam which means ‘Onam Harvest’. Rakshabandhan is associated with familial relations within Hindu families. It has only very little relevance outside Hindu homes. Ganesh Chaturthi is heavily associated with a Hindu deity and all the public gatherings happens during it is associated with that deity. In case of Onam most people celebrating it don’t even venerate any particular deity. (Which is not the case with Vishu were Hindu rituals/prayers is widely practiced). ChandlerMinh (talk) 11:53, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I was not talking about specifics involved in the festival but general mentions of the other festivals you made. Anyway, I will respond to the section you started below. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 12:41, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Onam and Islam

I've created a new article Onam and Islam to split the section and make it a standalone article since there are enough references and notability. It might require a cleanup and copyedit though. Thisgiht give better stability to the Onam article and can take away a majority of vandalism that occurs here. Thanks. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 08:22, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2023

Onam is the festival for not only for Hindus , this is a festival of malayalees all over the world 103.153.105.240 (talk) 03:55, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. It's already is mentioned in the lead, backed up by reliable citations. Kindly provide references for the request. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 05:02, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2023 (2)

Onam is celebrated by everyone in Kerala and is NOT celebrated predominantly by Hindus. Onam is a cultural harvest festival which became associated with a myth and not a religious one. Cs.cicilsandra (talk) 13:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 14:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Trampled?

Who gave this word, trampled,to be used? Bali due to his generosity gave a boon to Vamana. It’s symbolic to denote our pride is removed by having the feet of Vamana on the head. 76.133.135.197 (talk) 16:59, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Mention the relation to harvest in "significance" section.

While the current version of this page delves into the details of the mythical stories associated with Onam (the more popular story of Mahabali and his homecoming, as well as the less popular story of Parasurama), it mentions next to nothing about Onam also being a harvest festival. Terms like "Onakkoythu" and the many Onam songs with the focus on "poove" & "poli" instead of any mythical stories indicate that Onam was also celebrated as a harvest festival (or that the harvest/cultural aspects mixed together with the religious aspects over time). 134.96.82.140 (talk) 15:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Move content of "Onam and Islam" to "Cultural Festival" section instead of a separate section.

A separate section for "Onam and Islam" is unnecessary (except for religious fanatics from either sides who want to propagate their narratives). In any case, at the very least, move the content of this section to the already existing section "Cultural Festival" which should be discussing all cultural aspects of the festival across all communities? 134.96.82.140 (talk) 15:29, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

The need for a standalone article was high and hence the cultural section will not be able to contain it in detail. Also, the connection between Islam and Onam goes back to almost more than a century. Hence, it is to be done as a seperate article and a section summarizing the article per Wikipedia:Manual of Style, Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Thanks. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 02:43, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2024

No one in Kerala celebrates Vamana, they celebrate Mahabali. The reversal of that fact at the very beginning of the Wikipedia article is a blatant Hindutva attempt to interfere in Kerala society, because North Indian Hindutva fundamentalists cannot accept that in Kerala an Asura-king is loved, and Vamana (Vishnu) is despised as a deceiver, and furthermore, as the folk song Maveli nadu Vaneedum Kalam says, when Maveli (Mahabali) was King, all people were equal and no child when hungry. What does that say about the times *after* Maveli's rule? 71.121.253.2 (talk) 13:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 14:10, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Great Job and happy onam!!

Thilsebatti (talk) 03:00, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

AP and EK

@The Herald, consider adding something about what AP Sunnis/EK Sunnis are. As a reader, I have no idea. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:16, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Fathul Mueen and Onam

I came across a Deccan Chronicles’ article that connected Onam with Fat'h Ul Mueen, an Islamic jurisprudence text, and incorporated it into the article under a new subsection titled "History." However, this addition was later reverted.[2]

So suggest a very short version of it.

Zayn al-Din Makhdoom's 16th-century Islamic jurisprudence text of Malabar(present day Kerala), Fathul Mueen, promoted an inclusive Islam, including the celebration of festivals with other communities present then. However, modern critics, influenced by Arab cultural interpretations, now denounce such practices as un-Islamic, reversing the region's historical approach to religious harmony.

Editors, please review this for potential inclusion in the article.

Previous related discussion -> https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User_talk:The_Herald CheramanMale (talk) 22:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I have read the Malayalam translation of Fathul Mueen completely, but I do not remember seeing a statement in it saying it is permissible to celebrate non-Muslims' celebration. The Deccan Chronicle source you cited says Fathul Mueen seldom discourages celebrating non-Muslims celebration. Neutralhappy (talk) 08:56, 15 August 2024 (UTC)