Talk:Onam/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Onam Introduction

In second line it says that Onam is a 'National Harvest Festival' of Kerala. It makes no sense as the word 'national' cant be used in this context, Kerala being state of India. Even on the official Kerala government page (http://www.kerala.gov.in/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3700&Itemid=2753) it describes Onam as grand national harvest festival, but it doesn't specifically says national festival "of Kerala". So it should be replaced with 'harvest festival of Kerala'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abhishek D sinha (talk • contribs) 08:03, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

 Done --    L o g  X   14:20, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Onam is celebrated not only by hindus but by every keralites.. Vineethjohn (talk) 14:50, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

First point. As noted vineet John above, Onam is not just a Hindu festival but rather a Malayali cultural festival having roots in Hindu theology, as it’s celebrated by all malayalis (Keralites) regardless of religion. Second point. It celebrates Mahabali and his return and not Vamana Gobroto (talk) 21:43, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

I would like to echo this point. I know this festival to be celebrated, assiduously, by pious Jacobite, Mar Thoma & other Malayali Christians from families that have be Christian for nearly 2000 years (since before to the introduction of vedic Hinduism to Kerala). In my city, Onam is celebrated jointly by Malayalis of all three major Kerala faiths (Hindu, Christian, Muslim), and there is no mention of any connection to Vedic theology. It is structured as a celebration simply of Mahabali, who is described as a great king who led Kerala to great stability and prosperity. I would not be at all surprised if the story of Mahabali was a local pre-Hindu legend simply imbued with Hindu religious features after the fact when the Namboothiris took over.DannyMos (talk) 17:28, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Image of Puli Kali and Boat Race

There is no image of "Puli Kali" and "Boat Race" which I think is required. We can replace one of the three Onappookkalam images with a "Puli Kali" and another one with Boat Race. -- Achyuth —Preceding undated comment added 11:45, 9 September 2011 (UTC).

Happy Onam!

Taking out the "Critical Views" section. Critical views of anything including a festival should be discussed separately on separate pages and should not be used to distract from the main article. Please refrain from vandalising any article with a particular point of view whether critical or not. -- Abhijna

Also read the edit summaries before putting back the "Critical Views." -- Abhijna

Alternate Legend

In an alternate legend, it is believed by many Malayalees that during the Onam Parasurama visits Kerala. Dr. Gundert defines in his Malayalam Dictionary, Onam, as the day that Parasurama recovered Kerala from the sea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.2.228.162 (talk) 07:46, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, according to Puranas, Because, Parasurama recovered Kerala from the sea and his time was after the rule of Mahabali. Mahabali was in Kritha yuga, the first of four yugas. Parasurama was in Threthayuga, the second one. Then how can Mahabali rule Kerala which was recovered from sea after his period?. The rule of Mahabali in Kerala, Vamana sending him to Paathaala, and Mahabali's homecoming are all fabricated storys. Onam is really the birth day of Lord Vamana. The "Thrikkakkarayappan" we make, is actually the Lord Vamana of Thrikkakkara Temple.

Image

The picture of Trivandrum Railaway Station Building on the Onam night is totally incongrous with the article. The modern day Onam celeberation can be better highlighted through a picture of a boat race. --K N Unni 11:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Dravidian civilizations

Wiki Raja 10:44, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Onappookkalam

Amolnaik2k (talk) 07:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The Onappookkalam illustrated is indeed an Onappookkalam but not a "Typical" one. The basic rule is that it should be symmetrical. But the illustrated one has an image of the snake boat which is not "symmetrical" from all directions.

Do we need so many Pookalams?

We have 3 pookalam images and additional one showing children making one. We should keep the one with the children and remove 2 of the others. What do you guys think? Virtualage (talk) 13:56, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Accessibility

An Indian work colleague mentioned this to me today, so I came looking for further details. I haven't the time (as I'm still at work!) to read the article completely, or do any editing, but there needs to be more explanation for someone like me who knows nothing about this culture. In particular, the lede paragraph is devoid of any wikilinks, yet every non-English word is an unknown to me. -- Hymek (talk) 08:56, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Hindu festival

One of the very few sources we have for this article clearly states it is a national festival. If we need to elaborate what this means, please provide sources to do so. --Ronz (talk) 16:35, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

It is mentioned about Onam that it is a national festival kerala. It is celebrated by Keralites all over the world, irrespective of their religions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Susan143341michael (talk • contribs) 15:09, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Are you proposing a change to the article? --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

It is not a hindu festival but a harvesting festival of the state.. there is no religious bar for this.. every keralites celebrate Onam.. Vineethjohn (talk) 14:52, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Onam is a secular harvest festival of kerala, related to hindu mythology but not a hindu festival itself. It's a cultural to Malayalees.

Please make that change it is of huge significance. There is no religious annotation to this festival and should be known as such Offkey1000 (talk) 16:27, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 September 2013

I want to edit this because of a sentence that tells Mahabali as king of Malayalis. It is not like that. Bali coming to Earth was a boon given to that benevolent king of Earth by Lord Vishnu when he sent Bali as Emperor of Patala lokam. Hence, every year when Bali supposed to come to the Earth, that would be celebrated as Onam festival in Kerala.

123.201.225.177 (talk) 04:12, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Can you please provide a reliable source for this information? Given that we're discussing ancient stories, is there a possibility that there are multiple versions of the stories? --Ronz (talk) 17:17, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 September 2013

Onam is the national festival of Kerala. It is not a hindu festival. 115.112.151.66 (talk) 03:13, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

We've a source that says otherwise, and a discussion on the topic here. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 20 September 2013

196.15.16.104 (talk) 05:25, 20 September 2013 (UTC) It is a National Festival of Kerala, not specific to religion

See the above edit request. There has been discussion on the topic and sources provided to show otherwise. If you wish to start a new discussion on the topic, you need to provide reliable sources that support your assertion, and you don't need to use the "editsemiprotected" template. Dana boomer (talk) 11:15, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

The reason that Onam may be called a 'Religious festival' by many, is mostly due to its roots, which come from the Hindu mythological story of King Mahabali . However, for sometime, Onam has evolved into one that is celebrated by people across all religions in Kerala. One of the sources I can cite for this is here : . Note the statement that "Of late, it has evolved into a national festival of all the Malayalees, irrespective of their religious affiliation."

Another reference I cite for this is the official Kerala government website (though I have noted a few errors on this page too). . Here, Onam is not referred to as a religious festival, but Vishu, Deepavali, and Mahashivrathri are called so. Also, note the statement "The Mahasivarathri is essentially a religious festival unlike the Onam and Thiruvathira".

Often, it is the case that festivals originating from one religion, are later adopted by celebrated by people across differing faiths. The same goes for many fests such as Christmas , which is a very widespread festival celebrated by people of several faiths. However, (to quote another article of this type) I note that the article on Christmas does not specify it as being a 'Christian' festival, though it does mention it is of 'Christian' type, and celebrated by many non-Christians.

I propose that we modify the article to read that so: "Onam (Malayalam: ഓണം) is the most popular festival celebrated by the people of Kerala, India.[1] It derives its roots from the Hindu mythology of King Mahabali. It is also the Harvest festival of Kerala with State holidays on ..." ... (rest of the article)

I will post more references if I can find them.

Harivishnu (talk) 04:01, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into this.

From what you've provided so far, we have alternative descriptions rather than justification for removing the current description. The reviewed book would likely provide the information we need to resolve this. --Ronz (talk) 16:50, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Onam is a Hindu festival

Some of the editors seem to object with the WP:LEAD which describes Onam as a Hindu festival. The only reason for such objection is that Onam is also celebrated by a good section of the non-Hindus in Kerala. Chirstmas, for example, is also celebrated by a lot of non-Christians, but that does not prevent us from terming Christmas as a Christian festival. Onam commemorates a piece of mythology which do not find acceptance among the non-Hindus of Kerala.

Onam by virtue of it is a Hindu festival, which is also celebrated by a good section of keralite non-Hindus. Snowcream (talk) 19:41, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

This is the official statement about Onam, by the Government of kerala. http://www.prd.kerala.gov.in/onam.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenbangalore (talk • contribs) 04:56, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Greenbangalore: you are replying to a 2014 thread. The official statement does not say that it is not a Hindu festival, it actually mentions Hindu mythologies consistent with what is in the article. This version of the article and the 2017 version of the statement are consistent, although please note that per WP:WWIN, wikipedia articles are not advertisement, politically correct venue, media relation platform or mirrors of blogs, commercial or government websites. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:46, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 September 2014

Please change 'Onam (Malayalam: ഓണം) is a festival celebrated by the people of Kerala, India.[1]' to 'Onam (Malayalam: ഓണം) is a festival celebrated by the people of Kerala, India.[1]'.......Onam is not seen as a religious fest in Kerala.It is the festival of all keralites who live all around the globe.So please have the mind to change. Reshnurajrs (talk) 08:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

We've sources that say otherwise. Please see the previous discussions. --Ronz (talk) 17:56, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Onam is essentially a Hindu festival. It's based on events articulated in Hindu scriptures and mythology. It's date is arrived on using Malayalam calendar, which is a Hindu calendar. Yes, It is celebrated by a good number of non-Hindus in Kerala. However, that doesn't take away from Onam it's innate quality of being a Hindu festival. To satisfy WP's standards, we also have verifiable citations from reliable sources to that regard. Snowcream (talk) 09:50, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Not done: The page's protection level and/or your user rights have changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. - Arjayay (talk) 16:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 August 2015

"Hindu festival" is wrong it is festival of all religion in Kerala

182.74.243.98 (talk) 17:14, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

 Not done as the article clearly states it is "a Hindu festival celebrated in Kerala, India. It is also the state festival of Kerala" Looking at the history, it clearly started as a Hindu festival before becoming celebrated by everyone. - Arjayay (talk) 17:58, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2015

I would like to change below sentence QUOTE: Onam (Malayalam: ഓണം) is a Hindu festival celebrated in Kerala, India.[ UNQUOTE:

Onam is the official festival of Kerala for all Keralites or Malayalees. It is not a HINDU festival. It is a festival celebrated by all Malayalees alike be it Hindus, Muslims or Christians.

Please do not bring a religious version to it.

Please find below my addition from http://www.onamfestival.org/onam-in-kerala.html QUOTE: Onam in Kerala:

Onam is the biggest festival of Kerala. But, there is a lot more to Onam than being just a festival. Onam reflects the faith of the people of Kerala A belief in their legendary past, religion and power of worship. It shows the high spirit of the people who go out of the way to celebrate the festival in the prescribed manner and a grand fashion.

Best of Season and Weather Onam is also a harvest festival. It is celebrated at a time when everything appears so nice and good. The beautiful landscape of Kerala can be seen in its full radiance at this time of the Malayalam New Year. Weather, it seems, also seeks to be a part of the festival. It contributes by becoming pleasantly warm and sunny. Fields look brilliant with a bountiful harvest. Farmers feel on top of the world as they watch the result of their hard labour with pride.

Children's Joy and Homecoming Children eagerly wait for the arrival of the carnival. Why shouldn't they. It is time for them to get new clothes, toys and everything else they asked for or thought of. Numerous uncles, aunts and grandmas grace their wishes with delight. It is also a time for homecoming for people staying away from the families. Their arrival multiples the joy of the festival several folds.

Welcoming a Very Special Visitor Onam awaits one very special visitor, Kerala's most loved legendary King Maveli. He is the King who once gave the people a golden era in Kerala. The King is so much attached to his kingdom that it is believed that he comes annually from the nether world to see his people living happily. It is in honour of King Mahabali, affectionately called Onathappan, that Onam is celebrated.

Womenfolk make special arrangements to welcome Onathappan. Flower carpets are laid in the front courtyards with dedication and full sincerity. A grand meal is prepared on the day of Thiru Onam. It is on this day that Maveli's spirit visits Kerala. Lip smacking meal consists of best of Kerala cuisine including avial, sambhar, rasam, parippu and the payasam.

Cultural Extravaganza One of the most marvelous facets of Onam is the unfolding of its rich and well-established culture. We see not just glimpses but a whole gamut of it in the ten-day-long carnival. Pulikali, Kaikottikali, Kummattikalli, Kathakali, Thumbi Thullal besides several other folk arts and traditions can be seen on one platform called Onam.

Of Unity and Team Spirit The beauty of the festival lies in it's secular fabric. People of all religions, castes and communities celebrate the festival with equal joy and verve. Onam also helps to create an atmosphere of peace and brotherhood by way of various team sports organised on the day.

Onam is the passion of the people of Kerala. And, pride of India!

UNQUOTE:

Vibin Varghese

Vibintoms (talk) 16:04, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

 Not done - as you yourself have admitted it is from http://www.onamfestival.org/onam-in-kerala.html - so to use it, would be a blatant copyright violation. - Arjayay (talk) 16:11, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2015

Onam (Malayalam: ഓണം) is a Hindu festival celebrated in Kerala, India.

Please change the above sentence with "Onam (Malayalam: ഓണം) is a festival celebrated in Kerala, India."

Reason: Onam is not at all a religious festival. It is the harvest festival celebrated by all the religious people in kerala. Sanoopktm (talk) 18:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

 Not done Verifiable Reliable Sources say the Onam is a Hindu festival. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snowcream (talk • contribs)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2015

ONAM is a not Hindu festival . It is the festival celebrating all people in Kerala State. The story happening in before Christ . Those days there is no religion in India.

Please remove the work 'Hindu festival' from the article.

Bijuneel (talk) 18:12, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

 Not done Verifiable Reliable Sources say the Onam is a Hindu festival. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snowcream (talk • contribs)

August 30 2016

Happy advanced wishes of Onam. 1) I would like to ask if we can move the 10 days of Onam into a separate section as it demands more importance on its own .Currently the ten days of Onam are grouped with the section : Rituals. It would be great if the ten days are mentioned before this section and we can try to add more information for the days. 2) Also in the infobox I think it will be better if we mention that it is the 'Thiruvonam' date which is mentioned since Onam lasts for 10 days + 2. Making the section 'Days of Onam' can also solve this.

Jibinmathews (talk) 14:08, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Hindu

Hope these two edits [1] will give other Wikipedia editors some idea about the word Hindu and how it is wrongly used by so many ignorant people. Hindu is a Persian word. One has to look at how and when this non-Indian word was used for the first time in various regions of modern-day India. In the article Onam, the use of the word Hindu in historical context is terribly wrong and misplaced. We can see such wrong usages on many websites including Wikipedia. Another point is that there are many fictional stories. One story tells that Mahabali had ruled Kerala and another story tells that Kerala was created by Parasurama. The funny thing is that, as per those stories, Mahabali had lived before the period of Parasurama because Vamana who had sent Mahabali to the netherworld was the fifth avathar of Vishnu and Parasurama who had created Kerala was the sixth avathar of Vishnu. Then, how could Kerala be ruled by Mahabali before it was created by Parasurama? Even those fictional stories are conflicting with one another and anyone can interpret them as s/he wants. Instead of relying heavily on those conflicting fictional stories, we should look at the historical facts. Onam is a very ancient rice harvest festival, it is not a religious festival, but some people try to hijack it and want to project it as their own religious festival and even use Wikipedia to achieve their goal.42.109.203.204 (talk) 08:41, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

That is your POV. First of all, it doesn't matter what the etymology of the word 'Hindu' is, even the word 'India' is not of Indic origin. There are umpteen sources provided on the page which clearly says that it is a "Hindu festival", as per your POV(point of view) it is not, it does not mean you would push your POV on Wikipedia. A festival can be both related to harvest and Hindu culture, they are not mutually exclusive. As far as your bone with mythology is concerned, that is again your POV and doubt, you can not push your doubts and POVs on the page. Onam is a "Hindu festival" also a harvest festival, it is an established FACT, backed by reliable sources on the page, you are actually attempting to hijack the page to push your POV. Shimlaites (talk) 12:49, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

We have to check whether Onam is a religious festival or not.

GOVERNMENT OF KERALA: [2]

ONAM - The National Festival of Kerala: Whatever be the truth behind this legend, Onam has for last several centuries been a grand national harvest festival in which all sections of the people participate with extreme jubilation. It is mentioned as a national harvest festival. It is not mentioned as a Hindu festival.

MAHA SHIVARATHRI - The Mahasivarathri is essentially a religious festival unlike the Onam. Here it clearly states that Onam is not a religious festival.

When the Official Web Portal of the Government of Kerala states that Onam is not a religious festival, projecting it as a religious festival is wrong and misleading. We have to make necessary changes to this article.42.109.139.154 (talk) 10:35, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Does Govt of Kerala own 'Onam'? No. Is it state government festival? No. Its a communal festival, celebrated by common people of Kerala. It is a Hindu festival, celebrated around the time of rice harvest season in the state. Again, kindly read so many reliable sources from reputed publications and platforms, cited on the page, which call it a "HINDU FESTIVAL". BTW, the source which you have cited also associates Onam with the Hindu legend. Shimlaites (talk) 14:02, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

We have to check whether Onam is a religious festival or not. No we don't. If reliable sources say one way or another, we need to consider them. If we have reliable sources for multiple viewpoints, then we need to decide which to present and in what level of detail.

Scholarly, historical sources are preferred in situations like this. --Ronz (talk) 16:12, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

It's just the author's POV that Onam shouldn't be called Hindu because the word is loaded owing to its Persian origin. Would you dare say the millions of people who call themselves Hindu in India are not Hindu because Hindu is a Persian word disconnected to their religion. I am just throwing you an analogy. I moreover find citations from reliable sources for the Hindu assertion. That does it for wikipedia. Snowcream (talk) 18:51, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

References

unsourced sections and OR

I am removing much blog-like personal essay such as the large section on "Ten Days of Onam Celebrations" (some of it is copied from a SCFI website, but that is either WP:Copyvio or WP:Circular, and wrong either way). The few sources cited do not verify the paragraphs. It would be nice if someone can find scholarly reliable source(s) and rewrite these sections using those WP:RS with NPOV. A discussion of concerns or comments are welcome, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:26, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Sources, embedded quotes and edits

@82.42.7.18: Please do not repeatedly remove sourced content, for which three scholarly reliable sources are cited with embedded quotes for easier verification. If you have concerns, please explain. Your cooperation is requested, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:52, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

When 98 percent of the so-called Hindus DO NOT celebrate Onam, how can Onam be called a Hindu festival? In fact, Onam is celebrated by all the Malayali people, the Malayalam-speaking people, across the world irrespective of religion, caste and tribe. The harvest festival Onam is the State festival of Kerala. Those who call Onam a religious festival, do not know the real concept of Onam. As far as Onam is concerned, the Malayali community should be given importance, not any religion. The references given to claim Onam as a religious festival are not correct. In one of the books, "Islamic Reform in South Asia", the author, even wrongly calls the Kerala New Year as Hindu New Year. Such books are not reliable. In fact, the astronomical New Year is celebrated as Vishu in Kerala and in different names in other regions of India. Onam is celebrated only by the Malayali community and NOT by other communities of India. 61.1.70.190 (talk) 11:21, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Welcome to wikipedia. We summarize published reliable sources, not personal opinions / prejudices / wisdom. You may want to write a blog, but wikipedia is not a blog. We must ignore unpublished assertions / proclamations / wishful thinking / insights. Respect the wikipedia community agreed WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. Please review wikipedia's content policies and guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:41, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Onam - a religious and cultural festival

It's both a religious and cultural festival, hence shouldn't it say "Hindu, cultural" under "Type"? ToMt (talk) 03:47, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

The cultural festival part is included in the 'Observed by' field of the infobox. Type is a different infobox parameter with certain guidelines, and it should be based on those guidelines. Repetition is unnecessary. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:17, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Tags

117.216.75.136: Welcome to wikipedia. Please review WP:DETAG guidelines. Do explain on this talk page, the specific reasons with reliable sources, what is it that motivates these tags?, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:32, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Onam is an ancient harvest festival

Onam is NOT a Hindu festival. According to the Government of Kerala, Onam is NOT a religious festival [3]. Onam is the State festival. Onam is the National Festival of Kerala. That is the official stand. The democratically elected Government represents the people of Kerala.

Kerala was ruled by the Chera dynasty until the 12th century CE. History shows that the stories of Mahabali and Parashurama were brought to Kerala by the people who migrated from North India to the Chera Kingdom. Those stories were originally written in Sanskrit, and Sanskrit was NOT the language of the Chera Kingdom. One group from North India brought the story of Mahabali and another group brought the story of Parashurama. That is why we have conflicting stories. According to those stories Parashurama who allegedly created Kerala, lived after the period of Mahabali. How Mahabali had ruled Kerala before it was created by Parashurama? Those are just mythical stories brought to the Chera Kingdom, and are NOT historical facts. Even in that story, Mahabali had ruled somewhere in North India because Mahabali was the great great grandson of sage Kashyapa who was based in the northwestern part of the Indian subcontinent and legends attribute the region of Kashmir to be derived from his name.

Malayalam is NOT a Hindu language. The Malayalam New Year/Kerala New Year is NOT the Hindu New Year. 59.92.202.165 (talk) 06:02, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

References

59.92.202.165: Welcome to wikipedia. Please review wikipedia's content policies and guidelines, particularly about verifiability, original research and reliable sources. The government website you link does not state anywhere "Onam is NOT a Hindu festival". In contrast, it too is clearly mentioning Vishnu, Mahabali etc... which is all Hindu mythology, and which this article also mentions. Wikipedia is not a personal blog to post one's wisdom / prejudices / opinions; or a place to publish original research. We summarize reliable sources. The article already cites scholarly sources, with embedded quotes, that Onam is a Hindu festival, and it is also an important state festival that is observed as a cultural festival by both Hindus and non-Hindus. There is nothing wrong with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, non-Hindus celebrating Onam, etc and more importantly in the summary of multiple sources in this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 08:33, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2017

Onam (Malayalam: ഓണം) is an annual Kerala's national festival with origins in the state of Kerala in Shamsmuhammed (talk) 10:03, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. nihlus kryik (talk) 10:10, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Sources

@Greenbangalore: Wikipedia is not a personal blog, and you criticizing scholarship by non-Indians because of their ethnic origin is not appropriate. Please review WP:RS guidelines and stop edit warring. Please discuss your concerns. Your cooperation is requested, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:55, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 August 2017

Vinuchalaksd (talk) 07:27, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Onam is an annual HARVESTING festival with origins in the state of Kerala in India.

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 07:32, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2017

Add onam in the national festival of kerala. Gokular93 (talk) 12:14, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2017

Onam is the national harvest festival of Kerala. Gokular93 (talk) 12:16, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Already done Already in the article SparklingPessimist ^{Scream at me!} 12:45, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2017

Onam is Keralas's Festival, every cast and religion in the state celebrate it, Remove the Hindu religion from the introduction. Its not correct. 192.91.75.12 (talk) 17:22, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 17:25, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 September 2017

Onam 2017 dates range from August 24, 2017 to September 4, 2017 and not September 6, 2017 as mentioned in the page. There are only 10 days of Onam. 103.71.168.169 (talk) 12:58, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. SparklingPessimist ^{Scream at me!} 16:34, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Done SparklingPessimist ^{Scream at me!} 23:46, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Hindu Festival

Onam is a secular festival although the mythological origins are Hindu, and recently being targeted by Hindu Religious parties to be made as a Hindu. Ms_Sarah_Welch is trying to potray it as a hindu festival, which is a bad character from a wikipedia editor. The person is ignoring the official source published by the government of Kerala, and trying to portray own idea.

Edit Request, September 6 2017

Onam is definitely a Secular Festival and the State Festival of the State of Kerala, India - Request to correct the Article This is another request to classify Onam as a secular festival and do not tag it as Hindu. This is a serious offense to the people of Kerala who celebrate it as a State Festival. All agree to the legend of Malayalees legendary King Maveli and the mythological origins are Hindu. However classifying the festival as Hindu can have socially disruptive effects. Such classification destroys the festival's secular nature and can be used by radical groups to bring divide in the social fabric of Kerala. One may argue that Christmas celebrated by non-Christians in Kerala does not mean that Christmas is not Christian, however there are religious rituals for Christmas that identifies it as Christian. Onam on the contrary do not have a religious ritual that is Hindu, but the festivities are all social and secular. Citing sources here.

My Edit on the Onam page has been removed and tagged disruptive by User:Ms_Sarah_Welch. I came to this page to see that there are many requests to mark Onam as Secular, not non-hindu, but "Secular with origins in Hindu Mythology" is the ground reality. If Wikipedia editors want to side with the Radical forces who want to destroy a unanimous secular social fabric, common people who rely on this page as a source are misled. Is this what Wikipedia wants? A better version on the local festival Onam in malayalam is available on the Ml wikipedia : ഓണം -Vimal|(talk) 05:23, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

References

Vvidyadh: Numerous scholarly reliable sources state Onam is a Hindu festival as the cites and embedded quotes confirm, and we must stick with what WP:RS state. You are wrong about Onam rituals not being Hindu! They are. I have witnessed them myself in Kerala (e.g. early morning in the Thrikkakara Vamana temple – Kochi, the day Onam starts; many more)! Plus there is a lot more to Hinduism than what you prejudicially and incorrectly allege. Your arguments about "a serious offense to the people of Kerala" and "want to side with the Radical forces who want to destroy a unanimous secular social fabric" are strange and irrelevant, as if a festival being "Hindu" or "Christian" or a particular religion is a crime or wrong! Wikipedia cannot declare a Christian festival or Hindu festival or Muslim festival as non-religious and secular by ignoring scholarly sources, regardless of your personal opinions / prejudices / wisdoms / absurd fears. We summarize what multiple, high quality, mainstream scholarly sources are stating (see WP:V and WP:RS), not what you, blogs, government website or propaganda op-eds lecture. Wikipedia articles are not a political platform, nor a mirror of soapbox or social engineering or WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Please see WP:WWIN guidelines. FWIW, the article already states that the festival is also observed by non-Hindus, etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:16, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch: In my references I have cited verifiable sources. As you mentioned the Vamanamoorthy temple in Thrikkakara, communal harmony is the hallmark of the celebrations there, and it is not just the day Onam starts but lasts through the 10 days of Onam, and this indeed sides with the Hindu origin of the festival. I am not debating that at all. What I wish you to see is the fact that in the modern day, Kerala and malayalees celebrates it as a festival of the state and one of communal harmony. No Hindu God is worshiped in the state wide festivities during the festival, unlike Christmas which is also celebrated in Kerala. Please point out where WP:V and WP:RS are violated by the sources I have cited. The references are not made to blogs, but to published articles in newsprint, books by local authors and Government websites. In line with WP:RS these are also not too new. As mentioned before, I do not debate on the Hindu Origins of Onam (IMO nor the people who spoke on this topic here before me ), but in the modern day to classify a state festival (or national festival) as a religious one is not appropriate. The Encyclopedia Britannica source that you have quoted does not hold factually true in the present day. And Onam is not history, it is a festival that is in the present and celebrated every year by Malayali people of all religions and castes of Kerala. Not a mirror of anything but a fact. In line with WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, but what if WP:RS that you have used is old and outdated? Can we take this topic for a dispute resolution as sources disagree? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vvidyadh (talk • contribs)

Vividyadh: Either you have some typos above, or you misunderstood what I wrote. You are grossly mistaken, and your tendentious (mis)representations are not helpful. Yes, I have spent all ten days, wonderful days, in Kerala experiencing Onam. It is a Hindu festival, it is as Hindu as Christmas is a Christian festival (both attract the participation of many religious communities, but an encyclopedia article cannot scrub out the respective reference to Hinduism or Christianity)! It is inappropriate and prejudicial for you to imply that being Hindu is somehow bad or evil or "not secular" or "...". Please stop pretending to be the official spokesman or spokeswoman or "fact source" for "Kerala and malayalees", and it does not matter how the communist-socialist-religious coalition parties in power and political leaders in Kerala state celebrate the Onam festival, because wikipedia articles are not a Kerala government publication or propaganda arm. We need to stick to summarizing high-quality RS scholarship. No RS states Onam is "not a Hindu festival", numerous recent scholarly WP:RS state that it "is a Hindu festival" (many are already cited in this article with embedded quotes). I am not going to explain to you what WP:RS is, because that is done on WP:RS page and repeating that page is not the purpose of this talk page. Please try the help desk / TEAHOUSE. FWIW, you seem to be ignoring the fact that this article already states Onam is observed as a cultural festival across religious lines. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:13, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch: I acknowledge the fact that the article states Onam is observed as a cultural festival, but I was just trying to show Wikipedia that sources disagree to the "classification" of the festival as Hindu. The first line says its "Hindu", then page classified as Hindu, and in the fact that its observed as a cultural festival has a relatively negligible importance in the article. Being a Malayalee Hindu, I need not pretend to be a spokesperson for anything Malayalee or Hindu. I sense a politically motivated editor in you when you throw such allegations. Also, I am not implying that being Hindu is bad or evil, that is a misinterpretation of the discussion and takes focus away from the point being debated. Please let us keep to the debated point, with all respect to being Hindu. --Vvidyadh (talk) 06:50, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

As Vimal has pointed out above Onam is a secular festival with roots in Hindu theology. Please make suitable corrections. He has quoted all the standard verifiable sources. So I am not going to repeat. Actually it’s rather disturbing that a visitor who has limited experience is preferred over actual people from Kerala and verifiable sources. Gobroto (talk) 21:49, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Also I checked.. Christmas is not described as a christian festival in the first line.. just as a festival to commemorate the birth of Christ. Similarly Onam is a festival to commemorate the symbolic return of Mahabali. Using the term Hindu there is siding with a few religious extremist who want to make it non secular. Those events are described in the article. Please give Onam the same courtesy as Christmas Gobroto (talk) 22:01, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

@Gobroto: Welcome to wikipedia. You just opened your account and have 4 edits to your credit. It is inapproproate to lecture, "Actually it’s rather disturbing that a visitor who has limited experience" when your experience on wikipedia is far more limited, or just started! Your request does not make sense since we rely on WP:RS. Please review wikipedia polices and guidelines, for which I just posted some links for you. The Christmas article does mention Christian / Christianity prominently in the lead para and the infobox. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 11:19, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Seriously? I am of Keralite origin living in North India and even Iand its a Hindu festival. Just read the origin of Onam and you will understand.

The festival commemorates the Vamana avatar of Vishnu, the subsequent homecoming of the legendary Emperor Mahabali and mythologies of Hinduism related to Kashyapa and Parashurama.

The pukalam is intended to welcome Mahabali when he arrives from Patala. Are any of these mythological figures not Hindu ? The best you could say is that it is a regional festival, limited to Kerala and other parts of South India, but slowly gaining popularity within India. King Prithviraj II (talk) 11:25, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Edit Request - Is Onam Harvest Festival?

Dears, as indicated in the Article is Onam a Harvest Festival? Are the sources conforming to WP:RS? Rice being the major crop, I do not know of any Rice season that end with a Harvest atleast just before Onam, as what precedes the Malayalam Month of Chingam is the Month of Karkidakom, which is marked for heavy rains and difficult times. I have a list of different rice seasons here:

Agro-climatic situations	Seasons	From(Period)	To(Period)
General	Virippu (I crop / autumn)	April-May	Sept-Oct
General	Mundakan (II crop / winter)	Sept-Oct	Dec-Jan
General	Puncha (III crop / summer)	Dec-Jan	March-April
Onattukara	Virippu (I crop / autumn)	April	August
Onattukara	Mundakan (II crop / winter)	Aug-Sept	Dec-Jan
Kuttanad	Additional crop	May-June	Aug-Sept
Kuttanad	Puncha	Oct-Nov	Feb-March
Kole (single cropped area)	Mundakan (Kadumkrishi)	Aug-Sept	Dec-Jan
Pokkali	Virippu (I crop / autumn)	May-June	Sept-Oct
Pokkali	Oorumundakan	Aug-Sept	Dec-Jan
Kaippad	Mundakan (II crop / winter)	Sept-Oct	Dec-Jan
Kaippad	Puncha (III crop / summer)	Dec-Jan	March-April
High ranges	Nancha	May-June	Oct-Nov
High ranges	Puncha	Dec-Jan	April-May

As you see, there is no Harvest in Chingam. Could anyone re-check this claim and make necessary edit? Maybe Ms Sarah Welch ? --Vvidyadh (talk) 06:17, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

References

Vvidyadh: No WP:OR please. The Onam dates vary every year per the Malayali version of the Hindu calendar. Worldwide, the religious festivals linked to harvests typically do not coincide with the harvest date of each agro-climatic region. Sometimes it is observed weeks or months after, or once a year for the harvests previously. Wikipedia articles summarize what the WP:RS state. We can't ignore RS, can't do OR in wikipedia to create silly secular-scientific versions of traditional festivals. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 09:01, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Edit request

In the section on Cultural festival there is the following sentence:

“ The festival has been declared as wrong and forbidden for Muslims (Haram) by Islamic preachers. ”

If you read the source, in the middle paragraph of page 152, there is no mention of "preachers" or "forbidden" or "Haram". The article is misleading and should be changed to:

“ Some Muslim reformists have called on Muslims to refrain from taking part in the festival. ”

Thank you. 2A02:C7D:3C1A:7300:885F:F5E3:C310:9E44 (talk) 20:44, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

 Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 19:23, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Misleading introduction

For the statement The festival commemorates the Vamana avatar of Vishnu, the citation used is this book's pg no.400–402. Interesting fact is those pages discuss the topic Holi and nothing about Onam. So, in reality it's a deceptive fake reference for an unsourced OR. For the statement followed, ...mythologies of Hinduism related to Kashyapa and Parashurama, citations are: same book's pg no.659 and book 2 pg no.573–574, but neither of these sources discuss the claim. Pg.659 discuss Onam and Mahabali's backstory that merely mentions Kashyapa as his ancestor and nothing in book 2.

While, what I changed was completely as per given sources, pg.659 explicitly cites: Onam, an ancient rice harvest festival, is now tied to the story of King Mahabali ... The time of Mahabali's rule in Kerala is remembered as a Golden age; hence, his annual return visit, the subject of the Onam festival, is a time for widespread celebration. Book 2 cites: Mythologically, it celebrates the annual recreation of the orderly kingdom ruled over by Mahabali.--Let There Be Sunshine 07:12, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2018

Wicked attempt to hijack Onam by changing it from a cultural festival of malayalees to a "Religious" festival by removing significance of King Mahabali. The edit history below, clearly shows the difference made by organised attack groups: https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Onam&diff=856583441&oldid=799922790 Alexmohandas (talk) 01:01, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 17:53, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Cultural festival section

DBigXray: With this edit you changed the text from,

The festival is also celebrated by Christians of Kerala, in its churches.

to the following text:

The festival is also celebrated by Christians and Muslims of Kerala.

References

I have checked the source again, and I could not find any support for that change. Can you identify which para in the three cited pages in the Ponnumuthan source, directly or indirectly, support your change. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:24, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

page 289. And here is another one. Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 13:17, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

References

DBigXray: If you carefully look at the two versions above and the change you made, you added "Muslim" and alleged it is supported by the Ponnumuthan source. I do not see the word Muslim anywhere on page 289. By inserting the word "Muslim" and thereby alleging Ponnumuthan states "Onam is celebrated by Muslims", you misrepresented the source. The new Chaturvedi source you cite is fringe-y and questionable. B. K. Chaturvedi is non-RS, casual non-scholarly writer, one who has written books on astrology, tourist centers, etc. So your Chaturvedi source is questionable, not RS. If you can find high-quality scholarly sources, I would welcome adding Muslims celebrate Onam somewhere separately, with an explanation of the rituals they follow / celebrations they participate in. Since you have been given an opportunity to explain, and you have failed to show where Ponnumuthan supports the word Muslim, I am going to remove your OR and your improper edit that misrepresented the Ponnumuthan source. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:19, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

New year

The Onam festival marks the Malayali new year.

References

I note that Ms Sarah Welch has used the ref and stated in the article (diff)

"It is the New Year day for Malayali Hindus."

One wonders on this edit, is this not blatant hindu POV Pushing ? --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 10:42, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

First of all, you misquote the edit and misrepresent. The sentence had two cites (diff). Here is the exact, complete version (I have filled in the first cite's full details):

It is the New Year day for Malayali Hindus.

References

The first one supports that text. The article on Onam in the second source is written in a different style and we avoid Copyvio and summarize in our own words. In case you missed, the second source is an Encylopedia of Hinduism. Neither of these sources state or imply that Onam is the new year day for Malayali Christians or Malayali Muslims. Your projecting/questioning motives on the article talk page is inappropriate. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:55, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

So please clarify your actual intentions behind ignoring the second source and framing your prose on first. I am sincerely curious.--Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 12:56, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

I already did. Reread my reply. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:14, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, do not change or twist the facts with an excuse of avoiding WP:COPYVIO. If there are no other ways of saying something then it is said as such. Please familiarize yourself with WP:LIMITED. And in this case you could have easily phrased it as "Onam festival is celebrated as New year day by the Malayalee people."--Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 13:34, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Again reread my reply. The sources are clearly discussing it in the context of Hindu Malyalis, while one source indeed has the simpler sentence. This is not a big deal though. I have revised the sentence to "It is the New Year day for Malayalis.[13][14]", a version that is fine with me. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:07, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Secular Festival

The secular festival is actively celebrated by people of all religions and communities in the state.

References

MSW, please explain why you are removing this. --Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 14:59, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

DBigXray: I already explained it above. It is a self-published source (see WP:SPS). My edit comment too pointed out the SPS-issue. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:48, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Onam festival

Moved from User talk:DBigXray

BJP-RSS propaganda in Onam article to make it more Hindu than secular and to alter its myth by diminishing the importance of Mahabali over Vamana. Ms Sarah Welch is restoring problematic content by Snowcream without discussion. Onam is celebrated all over Kerala irrespective of religion. 2409:4073:30D:F96:6431:C9DF:B49E:479D (talk) 06:18, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I would agree, I have reverted some of the problematic content, Waiting to hear back from MSW. --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 08:52, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Please read the cited sources. We need to reflect what the secondary and tertiary reliable sources are stating. Many of these cites, already have embedded quotes. In light of these sources, please explain any mass reverts you make. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:10, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

can you please stop edit warring. You added something controversial and it has been reverted. Please make consensus before re-adding this --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 01:23, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

the ip has raised some valid concerns on pov and I find them serious. This needs to be discussed. --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 01:36, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

What are those concerns and how are they valid given what the cited scholarly sources are stating? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:51, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

please read this thread carefully. You should be able to see the concern. --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 02:01, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

DBigXray: We do not change content because someone alleges something is BJP-RSS propaganda, or is or is not X-Y-Z. Wikipedia is not a blog or an advocacy platform. We summarize high quality RS, preferably peer-reviewed scholarly sources. Let us look at the sources cited with the lead sentence:

• Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica (1974), Quote: "Onam, Hindu festival in Kerala State, India.
• Elaine Chase; Grace Bantebya-Kyomuhendo (2015), Oxford University Press. p. 312, Quote: "Onam (Hindu festival)..
• Caroline Osella; Filippo Osella (2006), Anthem Press, p. 174, Quote: "The 2000 Onam (Hindu festival)..

Despite what these sources are stating, you deleted "Hindu" from the article without explaining what is wrong with these sources and why not reflect what the secondary and tertiary sources are stating. In the main article, as well, you have deleted sources and sourced content. Why delete Hindu, when the RS saying it is a Hindu festival (the lead and the article does acknowledge the broader, cultural side of this featival)? What was wrong with these sources or the summary? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:35, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

• Comment.DBigXray I also got the same message from the IP and I’m fully convinced that these editors are violating WP:NPOV and WP:ADVOCACY by cherry picking the sources.Their additions sounds exactly how the IP alleges. The festival commemorates the Vamana avatar of Vishnu this is a sheer RSS propaganda 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and many BJP leaders were openly saying this for many years now.1 As a keralite, I know the reaction from kerala toward this.1. Akhiljaxxn (talk) 05:38, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Akhiljaxxn: We rely on scholarship, avoid blogs/newspaper/opinion columns. On admin Bishonen's talk page, earlier this year, we had a discussion about the reliability of Indian news media. There was a general concern about their media's reliability and Paid news in India (contact User:WBG for more). The Indian media unreliability issues apply to both the media that supports BJP-RSS and the media that supports their left/Congress/another political party. We should avoid these for pretty much everything except current news and such information. Scholarly sources are particularly important for topics such as this article, as WP:HISTRS and many topics. A relevant note from an admin, from another wikipedia-article-talk page:

Newspapers can be RS for news, but not RS for history / other information

Journalists virtually never have scholarly training in history/anthropology/ethnography/etc. — they're generalists as far as this kind of thing goes, not knowing more than what's needed for background purposes, and as such we mustn't consider them reliable sources for such fields. Exceptions can exist, of course, and we can't discount a journalist merely because of his job (e.g. he could be an avocational anthropologist so dedicated to the field that he's a member of a learned society), but even then we should only trust his writings if they've gotten reviewed by other experts; the most scholarly journalist will have his newspaper writeups reviewed by nobody except the newspaper's editors, whom again we can trust to know a lot about news reporting but we can't trust to know much of anything about "olds" reporting. We can take newspaper reports as authoritative if we're writing a middle school report for our teachers, but encyclopedia writing demands better sources: whether they're written by professional academics, journalists with a lot of experience in scholarly work, or anyone else, they need to have gone through a scholarly review process. – Nyttend

With that caution, please look at the links you gave: all Indian newspaper (these include some known problematic ones). Contrast these with the independent scholarly sources cited and the summary in this article. As an example, consider the list of three RS – Encyclopedia Britannica, Oxford Univ Press, etc – that I provided above. It is simply wrong and inconsistent with our community-agreed content guidelines to suppress what these multiple scholarly sources are stating, e.g. this is a Hindu festival. There is also no need to repeat what is already in the lead/main article, e.g. harvest festival, broadly observed cultural festival, etc - all derived from WP:RS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 06:21, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

• Akhiljaxxn I agree with you that this is a blatant Hindu fundamentalist propaganda (RSS propaganda) and this is not the first or the only page where Ms Sarah Welch has been doing this. The usual tactics used here are WP:CHERRY PICKING to push the Hindu fundamentalist side of the story followed by massive filibustering on the talk page and wiki lawyering on admin noticeboards such as ANI and Edit warring. The festival is celebrated by Christians and Muslims as well and hence it is rather misleading to blatantly call it a Hindu festival and CHERRYPICK sources that say that. Reliable sources (See below) say that it is harvest festival for Mahabali, but these sources doesnt help to push the Hindu Fundamentalist POV so it is understandable that they are being sidelined here.

This (Onam) 10-day harvest festival welcomes home the mythical King Mahabali

--Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 11:05, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

References

Culture Shock is not a scholarly publication, you call a tourist guide with chapters on getting visa, hotel accommodations, etc as a reliable source. You ignore three academic sources I provided above, use a tourist guide to question motives of other editors? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:30, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Alright, I will agree that culture shock is a kind of tourist guide. But there are tonnes of RS also stating the same, Check out.

References

DBigXray: you used what you now admit is a kind of a tourist guide (first calling it RS), to personally attack me with "a blatant Hindu fundamentalist propaganda". That is wrong. Have you carefully read these sources? Or just done a google search for the two words: Onam harvest? It will take time to carefully read these sources. A quick check of a few I did, and I see Onam links to Hinduism are discussed in these new ones too. For example, the Coogan's source published by the Oxford University Press says on page 152 (Chapter title is Hinduism: Sacred Time), amongst other things, that Onam is a harvest festival (...) celebrated in the honor of god Vishnu.) A festival can be a Hindu festival and a harvest festival. Is there any source that states that it is "not a Hindu festival"? Have you read the article carefully. Both the lead and the main article, before your recent edits, already stated that Onam is a harvest festival too. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:12, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch you are deliberately twisting my statement. I had said that "this (CONTENT) is a blatant Hindu fundamentalist propaganda (RSS propaganda) " I never said that "Ms Sarah Welch is a a blatant Hindu fundamentalist propaganda" There obviously a huge difference between the two lines. Check out this report from The Hindu to understand why I called it Propaganda. Also where did I used the source Culture shock ? Here in the talk page and not in the article. I added it here on the talk page as I quickly found it. Yes, take your time and review all of them. --Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 19:45, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

DBigXray: You now allege "Also where did I used the source Culture shock ? Here in the talk page and not in the article." But this edit-diff clearly shows that you "did add" that Culture shock source to the article! It is just a fact, that you now deny you did. You also removed the Encyclopedia Britannica source while doing so. That is puzzling because that tourist guide (ref name="Seow") you added to the article is neither a better or equivalent to the Encyclopedia Britannica. You wrote, "this is a blatant Hindu fundamentalist propaganda (RSS propaganda) and this is not the first or the only page where Ms Sarah Welch has been doing this". This is a false, harassing and defamatory allegation from you, inappropriate on an article talk page, and one without edit-diff. On the newspaper link, I already addressed the newspapers-as-sources issues above. This article should not mirror newspapers, rather it should rely on scholarly sources. Yes, I would welcome and support a short summary of any news related to Onam and local nationalist/leftist/other politics or disputes to the extent it is not already covered in the article and per our content guidelines. I have already checked the sources again, including Coogan etc you linked. They all mention the Hindu links. They also mention "harvest festival" as has this article for a long while. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:39, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

DBigXray: After you deleted scholarly sourced content and sources in recent edits, you also added a source published by "Partridge Publishing" (#3 in your list above), which is a self-publishing source and therefore unreliable. I plan to remove that WP:SPS and any other non-RS, after a respectful wait for any clarifications from you or other editors. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:52, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

And I am waiting for you to review and tell me which of the above sources you will accept to replace Seow Lynelle.--Happy Holidays! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 20:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

It is disappointing that you did not self-revert those bad sources you added, for so long, even after you agreed the Lynelle source you added "is a kind of tourist guide". Please reread my reply, with particular attention to my comments on Encylopedia Britannica, what I found in the Coogan etc sources in your list, and the need to follow scholarship. You just can't delete scholarly sources you don't like and replace them with WP:SPS or tourist guide sources such as the ones you have inserted instead. Also note that when disputes arise, the long-standing stable article version with scholarly sources is generally preserved. You need consensus to make changes as much as I or another editor needs consensus. We are equal, and you must follow the same principles and rules that you ask me or others to. If you disagree, you are welcome to try whatever you consider as the appropriate next step: dispute noticeboards / ANI / etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:07, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Ms Sarah Welch, I had said "And I am waiting for you to review and tell me which of the above sources you will accept to replace Seow Lynelle". Do you want me to explain what that line means ? instead of responding to my Q, you went ahead and started adding the content into the article ignoring this ongoing discussion. This is highly disruptive of you. And I would still want to hear back on "which of the above sources you will accept to replace Seow Lynelle". Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 16:40, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

DBigXray: Instead of your bossy and silly hounding with "Do you want me to explain what that line means", perhaps you can try reading my lines above carefully and understanding those lines. You can also try dispute/admin noticeboards if you insist on using non-RS such as tourist guides/self-published source while deleting scholarly sources, like the one you added again today. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:07, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Now, you have called me "bossy", "silly" and accused me of "hounding". these are all blatant Personal Attacks and I ask you to strike them off or else I will be forced to seek admins to take action. I will not tolerate your personal attacks any more. Are you claiming that all of the 12 refs I listed above are non-RS ? I am not sure how your comment above answers my question on these 12 refs. Please clarify. --Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 13:58, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Check Wikipedia

As the page is protected, can't edit until Jan 11. But saving the link to check Wikipedia for future reference. OkayKenji (there's a ref before punctuation) ^{(talk page)} 20:52, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Secular festival

I feel it will not help looking into the religious background of the mythological figures. Onam, as a concept, has gone through mainly three types of transformations, through its history. The Aryanization of Onam, originally a Dravidian festival, was the first among them. It was during this phase, the various mythological figures, such as Mahabali, Vamana, Kashyapa, and Parashurama, entered the Onam concept, which was originally a celebration during the good days of harvest when everyone had enough to eat and enjoy. The second phase coincided with the start of Brahminical influence and the original thoughts became influenced on a regional basis. This is one of the reasons the Onathappan is considered a symbol of Mahabali in some parts of Kerala while at certain other areas, it represents Vamana. The third was the recent attempts to bring Hindutva into the festival. A clear evidence is the attempt by a few to mark Onam as the birthday of Vamana, Vamana Jayanthi, and relegate Mahabali to a lower status. There are a number of scholarly books on Onam available in Malayalam, and a few in English such as Onam: A Festival of Kerala, by A. M. Kurup. S. Janardhanan Nair, in his book, Onam and Thrikkakkara, mentions about the origin of the festival as, Every year, on thiruvonam day of the month Karkidakam, ruler under Chera king used to visit the temple. A month later in Chingam, again on thiruvonam day, all kings gathered together at the temple’s premises and used to conduct their annual meeting, along with celebrating Onam festival. Fifty-six Kerala kings were the conveners of the fest and and the responsibility to conduct the festival each day was assigned to two among them. The festivities of atham day was jointly organized by the Kochi and Zamorin Kings. It is still reminisced in Thrippunithura Athachamayam and family celebrations of samuthiri kovilakam, thus pointing to the secular origin of Onam. The fact that the state of Kerala, ruled by leftist parties than any other during it's history, has accepted Onam as the state festival evidences its secular nature.--jojo@nthony (talk) 09:11, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

References

Tachs: As I explained in my December 29 2019 reply, we should be cautious in relying on Indian newspapers. We also must avoid taking sides in their political disputes such as those mentioned in their newspapers. Our content policies encourage quality through the use of mainstream, peer-reviewed scholarship and similar high-quality reliable sources. Except for Kurup, your references are newspapers. We cannot suppress or ignore the scholarly secondary or tertiary source on Onam. We must summarize its popular and scholarly description in the RS, in their voice. Yes, we can summarize the topical politics in a separate section, both the POV of the Hindu nationalists and the POV of the Leftists/Socialists as mentioned in the RS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:44, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

The purpose of my comments were to stress the fact that Onam is a secular festival and the religious colors it acquired later were by actions of people with vested interests. Please do not put too much importance in my citations as they were used only to support my argument, and not to be used as references in the article. I may able able to dig out scholarly book references in Malayalam. My position is that we should be cautious or else our negligence may be the reason for misleading those who reference this article in future. Just to point out one glaring error: the opening sentence of the article, Onam is an annual Harvest festival in the state of Kerala in India and is associated with Hinduism is factually incorrect; it may have been more correct if it is reworded as Onam is an annual Harvest festival in the state of Kerala in India and is associated with Indian mythology.--jojo@nthony (talk) 16:53, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Tachs (= jojo@nthony): Please read the scholarly sources already cited in the article and on this talk page. They clearly and repeatedly use terms such as Hindu/Hinduism/Hindu mythology. "Indian mythology" is vague and misleading, since Buddhist/Jain/etc mythologies do not mention Mahabali, Vamana, Onam, etc. If you identify peer-reviewed reliable sources and scholarship with page numbers, instead of the political drama/disputes/discussion in newspapers, we can collaborate to develop an alternate version. As I explained already, we can certainly include more in a dedicated section summarizing the contemporary politics associated with Onam. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:32, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

As per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS, a book on Hinduism would generally be reliable for the Hindu aspects of the festival, not for the secular aspects. For the secular aspects, the Fuller & Benei volume cited by NitinMlk seems pretty decisive. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:55, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

+1. Both the Hindu aspects and secular aspects are important. A summary from the Fuller & Benei source, particularly its discussion of the state's involvement/patronage/politics would further improve this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:01, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Tachs: Thanks for the A.M. Kurup reference, which I agreed with you in my comment above to be scholarly. I have now read Kurup, along with his 1977 review article on Onam. Here is what Kurup actually writes:

1. The earliest known reference to Onam is found in Maturaikkāñci – a Sangam era Tamil poem. It mentions Onam being celebrated in Madurai temples, when games and duels were held in temple premises, oblations were sent to the temples, people wore new clothes and feasted (The Maturaikkāñci mentions temples of gods and goddesses such as Shiva-Rudra, Murugan, Vishnu, Lakshmi, etc; it also mentions Jain monasteries etc)
2. The 9th-century Pathikas and Pallads by Periyazharwar, according to the Kurup source, describes Onam celebrations and offerings to Vishnu, mentions feasts and community events.
3. An 11th-century inscription in the Thrikkakara Temple (Kochi) dedicated to Vamana mentions a series of offerings made by a votary over two days prior and on Thiru Onam.
4. A 12th-century inscription in the Tiruvalla temple dedicated to Vishnu mentions Onam and states a donation was made to the temple as the Onam festival offering
5. A 16th-century European memoir describes Onam. It mentions among other things that Onam is always celebrated in September, the Malayala people adorn their homes with flowers and daub them over with cow's dung believing its auspicious association with goddess Lakshmi.
6. Kurup concludes his section on "Onam in history" with, "thus it is seen that Onam was a temple-based community festival celebrated over a period".
7. The only Onam mythology Kurup includes in the 1977 review article is one of Bali, Prahlada, Vamana, Kashyapa and Vishnu (the main part of this article does this too; Kurup makes no mention of Onam in the context of Parasurama (though elsewhere he mentions Parasurama); based on Kurup and most other sources, which do not make the Onam-Parasurama connection, I recommend we delete the Parasurama legend portion from this article)

The Kurup source does not support "Onam mythology and history has nothing to do with Hindu deities, Hindu temples or Hinduism". The Kurup source presents evidence and strongly supports that "Onam mythology and history" is linked to Bali, Vamana, Hindu temples and Hinduism. We should cite and summarize Kurup, as well, in this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 07:51, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Full protection again

It would be nice if all involved would use this talk-page here to form a consensus, and not blindly revert each other. Communication by edit summaries is rarely successful. Lectonar (talk) 08:15, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Vaman

Hi MSW, Stop edit warring and please learn to discuss your additions on the talk page after you are reverted. It seems you have problem in following WP:BRD. The source does not support what you are claiming here --Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 15:50, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

DBigXray: Actually, in this case, the stable version is one before your recent edits over the last week. You are the one that has made a "bold revert" and so you should discuss it. To aid the discussion, I have already embedded quotes from the two cited sources. These support the content. You wrongly alleged it is OR and is not supported in the source. Please explain/discuss what your concern really is? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:54, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

You are repeatedly adding controversial content that has been objected to by multiple editors on the talk page, that inclued the ip, User:Akhiljaxxn and myself. Without consensus you have no right to restore this content to the article. It is you who is adding the content, so please explain with quotes and refs, why it is needed. I can respond once you make your case for addition--Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 15:58, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

DBigXray: You state above, "the source does not support what you are claiming here". If you read the cited scholarly sources, from which I have added the embedded quote, you will see that you are wrong, and it is a mistake to allege it is OR. Here is what you are edit-warring over:

The festival commemorates the Vamana avatar of Vishnu, the subsequent homecoming of the legendary emperor Mahabali and mythologies of Hinduism related to Kashyapa and Vishnu.

Are you insisting that the two cited sources do not have the quoted text? On consensus, please note this content on Vamana etc is not only supported in the scholarly sources, it was in the long term, old stable version. Other editors such as Snowcream have restored it and therefore it is the last best consensus (there was a minor cite error in an old version, later fixed). Just because IP/some editor comes along and incorrectly alleges OR... when any review of the sources shows that it is not OR, we are not going to drop all our content and editing policies. We must reflect the quality RS and scholarship. Once again, I ask you to please look at those two sources, aided by the embedded quotes, then explain what your concern really is? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:21, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

References

Thank you, you should have added the quotes and the refs while making your first reply to this thread. From this ref and the quote it supports the line that "The festival commemorates Mahabali" and instead you are misrepresenting this to write "The festival commemorates Vaman". Understand that no one is disputing that these 2 are part of the story, but The Malayalees don't commemorate Vaman, in fact they consider him a villian who removed their beloved king Mahabali. So you are way out of line here. It is understandable why local editor an IP and Akhiljaxxn are objecting. 2. regarding Kashyapa, Where does it say that Onam festival "commemorates" the mythologies of Hinduism related to Kashyapa and Vishnu.--Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 16:37, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

DBigXray: You should have read the edit and the embedded the quotes. Neither of those two sources, nor others cited in this article, support your claim "in fact they consider him [Vamana] a villian". Will you be okay if we quote exact or more closely paraphrase the sources? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:55, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

I don't see the justification for the line "the festival commemorates Vaman". The sources are not saying anything remotely close. What am I missing? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:24, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Indeed Kautilya3 and I am still waiting for a response to this simple question. --Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 20:06, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

MSW replied below citing Coogan, p.153. It is a passing mention, and in my view, not decisive. I am recommending the Fuller & Benei volume as a decisive source. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:21, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3 If you see the page history MSW was edit warring to restore the content using "Encyclopedia of Hinduism by Cush, Denise and Robinson" Nowhere did she mention Coogan then. --Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 20:30, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: In all this re-factoring and shuffling of replies by DBigXray, you may have missed the draft version I prefer, one posted before your comment. See this. Your comments on it, or an alternate version would be helpful. Almost all secondary scholarly sources mention Mahabali and Vamana (as does the Fuller & Benei edited source; the Onam part is a chapter by Filippo Osella and Caroline Osella and they include a good discussion of the politics/practices since the 1940s on pages 143–154, where different political groups have tried to coopt the festival for their own ideologies). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:47, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

DBigXray: You included Coogan in your preferred list of references, few days ago. I had intended to add Coogan too, but somehow I missed. I was surprised that you were edit warring over what is in one of your preferred sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:20, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

I am being wrongly accused (three times so far on this page) of something that I did not do, so it is necessary for me to point this out. After being exposed where she was found misrepresenting the source "Encyclopedia of Hinduism by Cush, Denise and Robinson" and blatantly edit warring to restore the misrepresented content, despite being pointed this repeatedly by me. MSW has now resorted to distracting and lying. Contrary to what she is accusing me of, I have neither refactored nor reshuffled anyone's comment. I only added a section header since the comment by NitinMlk was not on the topic Vaman but more on the secular aspect. After this I also informed NitinMlk about it, where he agreed and thanked me. No one's comment were moved or refactored so far and the discussion was ongoing. After this then MSW appears and starts refactoring and shuffling around comments of others as you can see here where she moved Kautilya's comment, and later refactored her own comment. Made a mess out of it and started blaming me for the refactoring/reshuffling mess she herself had created. When I saw her changes, I restored Kautilya's comment and informed him about it. MSW, you should now stop blaming me for somthing that you yourself have done.--Happy New Year! ᗙ DBigXrayᗙ 22:38, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Well, what I am finding is quite the opposite. The story of Hinduism is that of a Great Tradition that gobbles up various Little Traditions. But here we find a Little Tradition that refuses to be gobbled up and, in fact, rebels against the Great Tradition. "We don't care for your god Vishnu. Mahabali is our hero."

Kerala is often depicted as the land of Asuras (demonic demi-gods), ruled by the demon-king Mahabali, who defeated the Vedic gods (the gods of the early Hindu texts) only to in turn be tricked by the god Vishnu, in his avatar as the dwarf Vamana.

I don't see how you can be ambivalent about this and claim that both Mahabali and Vamana are celebrated. The tradition is clearly on the side of Mahabali. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:38, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

References

Kautilya3: Indeed there are Great and Little Traditions here, and there is more in these sources. The Lukose and the Osella & Osella sources describe the modern politics and the disputes around Onam. I am glad that you at least see that there are two sides here, the Great Tradition and the Little Traditions. The NPOV version would state both. In my replies to NitinMlk and Tachs, I welcomed any new scholarly sources they identify and had already started expanding this article to summarize more from Lukose. I would welcome you to take over and revise/expand this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:00, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

The proposed draft before you stepped in, does mention Mahabali first:

The festival is tied to mythical legends about King Mahabali, whose spirit is said to visit Kerala at the time of Onam.[8][9] The legends link king Mahabali and the Vamana avatar of Vishnu.[1] These mythologies are recounted in the Shatapatha Brahmana, the Mahabharata and the Puranas through the stories of Mahabali, Prahalada and Kashyapa.[2][3][4] According to Nanditha Krishna, the story is likely an allegorical representation of harvest and a thanksgiving offering (Bali) after the summer season (solar Vishnu).[3]

If you have a better way to word it, go ahead. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:27, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Onam as a secular festival

@DBigXray and Ms Sarah Welch: I am not familiar with the topic at hand. But when I noticed this section, I did recall reading a relevant passage in Robin Jeffrey's book, which mentions Onam as a secular festival:

However, aspects of Kerala's unique Onam festival, a harvest celebration held in August-September, also suggested that ideas of equality were not totally excluded from the minds of Malayalis, both high and low. One of the folksongs about the festival begins:

“ When Mahabali was ruling,

All people were equal.

”

King Mahabali's generosity brought about his downfall, and with it, misery entered Kerala's world. Onam celebrates Mahabali's brief annual return to earth when his subjects do their best to show him that life is as he left it. The festival appears to have been celebrated from at least 1000 AD and to have involved all sections of the population – including the lowest castes and non-Hindus.

I checked a few other sources and found that the Onam's protagonist Mahabali is labelled as a demon or a Dravidian:

The final contestants performed various enactments of the role of King Mahabali, whose benevolent, mythic reign is celebrated at Onam. Kerala is often depicted as the land of Asuras (demonic demi-gods), ruled by the demon-king Mahabali, who defeated the Vedic gods (the gods of the early Hindu texts) only to in turn be tricked by the god Vishnu, in his avatar as the dwarf Vamana. Within the textual tradition, Mahabali makes a transformation from an enemy of the gods to a demon-devotee, who through charity and religious rectitude finds liberation at the feet of Vishnu. Within the larger context of the Bali tradition, interpretations that stress Mahabali as a Dravidian, lower-caste-affiliated demon who contests the Brahmanical pantheon are rife (Omvedt 1998).

Anyway, I have access to the two books cited by me. In fact, out of the scholarly sources cited on this talk page, I have access to the following: [4], [5], [6], & [7]. If anyone doesn't have access to them, then feel free to email me. And after reading them properly, it will be easier to develop consensus. Also, we should obviously stick to scholarly sources – see WP:HISTRS & WP:SOURCETYPES. Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 18:36, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

References

Thanks for joining in NitinMlk. Those are two good sources on the modern politics associated with the Onam festival. The article has already cited a Lukose source. The Jeffrey source provides the "perfect socialist king" and "Socialism" anachronistic interpretations/perspective of Mahabali and Onam (pp. 21-22). This is also worth summarizing in the main article, along with more from Lukose articles. For the lead, we need a balanced summary per WP:Lead guidelines. How about the following version that more closely follows the wording in the sources:

The festival is tied to mythical legends about King Mahabali, whose spirit is said to visit Kerala at the time of Onam.[8][9] The legends link king Mahabali and the Vamana avatar of Vishnu.[1] These mythologies are recounted in the Shatapatha Brahmana, the Mahabharata and the Puranas through the stories of Mahabali, Prahalada and Kashyapa.[2][3][4] According to Nanditha Krishna, the story is likely an allegorical representation of harvest and a thanksgiving offering (Bali) after the summer season (solar Vishnu).[3]

We can also quote exact. [1] and [2] are in the reflist above, [3] is the Nanditha Krishna source published by Penguin and cited in this article, [4] is the Sarma (1971) source in VIJ, volume 9. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:49, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

The main purpose of my comment was to mention that I have access to some relevant scholarly sources. But I am hardly familiar with the topic. So, as of now, I am not in a position to discuss any change to the article. - NitinMlk (talk) 19:06, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

@NitinMlk: Since you have access to these sources, it would help if you can check which sources mention (or do not mention) each of the following in the context of Onam mythologies/legends: [a] Mahabali, [b] Vamana, [c] Vishnu, [d] others (who, which religion). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:09, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

I was asking to email so that I could provide some soft copies, but I haven't received even a single email. Anyway, see edit summary. I have access to one more source which has a (26 pages long) chapter about Onam. And its page no. 139 clearly states that Onam "is celebrated equally by Hindus and non-Hindus". In fact, it covers the topic thoroughly. Note that there are already a few sources of Filippo/Caroline Osella in the article, but they contain just passing mentions about Onam. – NitinMlk (talk) 14:40, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

References

@Kautilya3: Someone has refactored the chronology and discussion. I have set it back. Please see the proposed draft above. Your review and comments are welcome. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:23, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

(ps: @Kautilya3:) If you would like direct support for "the festival commemorates fifth incarnation of Vishnu (Vamana)" with no mention of Mahabali, please see Michael Coogan, Oxford University Press, page 152 cited in the article and #6 in the list of references above in DBigXray's reply. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:46, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

NitinMlk: Both the lead and the main article already state that Onam is observed by Hindus, Christians, etc. Is there anything you want to be added further? The Chris Fuller source is an RS, by the way. Further, it is unlikely most editors will share their email address openly, for privacy reasons. I have access to these sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:47, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

I just checked the very first line of the lead and it is misleading. We should mention it as a secular festival instead of a festival "associated with Hinduism". Also, Encyclopædia Britannica is not a quality source, and reliable secondary sources are preferred over it, as mentioned at WP:RS/P – see Encyclopædia Britannica's entry at WP:RS/P#Sources. As we have plenty of such scholarly sources, we should remove the Britannica source. – NitinMlk (talk) 16:11, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

NitinMlk: That WP:RS/P#Sources entry states, "The Encyclopædia Britannica (including its online edition, Encyclopædia Britannica Online) is a tertiary source with a strong reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" and that editors prefer secondary sources when available. That does not mean "Encyclopedia is not a quality source", and does mean it is an RS. You mention a new source which states "is celebrated equally by Hindus and non-Hindus". But this does not necessarily support "is a secular festival", because a festival may be religious in its mythology/history/popular beliefs/rituals but attract participation by members from other religions/atheists. The two sources you have provided do mention ritual plays based on the Mahabali/Vamana/Vishnu legend, that historic literature links to Hinduism. There is nothing wrong in non-Hindus such as Christians and Muslims celebrating a Hindu festival with Hindus, just like the broad secular participation worldwide of Christmas with the Christians. The article cites many secondary sources that describe the association of Onam with Hinduism, as do other tertiary sources. For example:

"Onam (Hindu festival)" and [Onam is] an annual Hindu festival held in Kerala

"Despite its Hindu associations, Onam is celebrated by all communities."

Onam, a "popular major Hindu festival in Kerala that Orthodox Christians celebrate with much zest alongside Hindus"

"Most of the Muslims celebrate Hindu festivals like Onam, Divali etc; actively participating in the Hindu festivals without any religious feelings but as occasions to rejoice with friends".

"Onam (Malyali Hindu new year) ...."

"Onam Hindu festival celebrated in south India (...)"

There are many more. The main+lead should reflect such secondary sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:24, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

References

I have had a look at the above refs. Most of these context-less, passing mentions by non-experts shouldn't have been even cited here:

1) Ref 1 is about poverty-induced shame & is authored by a public policy specialist and a psychologist. And the entire book has seven words about Onam, which are obviously written by non-experts of the field.

2) Ref 6 is about English language usage, and is authored by an educational linguistics expert. So again a passing mention by someone who has no expertise in the field.

3) As far as the article in Journal of Kerala Studies is concerned, we can only comment about it after knowing its author. So full citation is needed.

4) Filippo/Caroline Osella's entire book (ref 5) has just half sentence about Onam in a particular context of Hindu-Muslim conflict. Anyway, their in-depth analysis of Onam has already cited by me where they describe its secular nature.

5) Cush's source (ref 2) mentions that Onam has "Hindu associations", which doesn't mean that it is a "Hindu festival". But we should give details of those Hindu connections with a proper context in the article's body.

6) Ref 3 is one source which calls it a Hindu festival, along with discussing it a bit. So this source seems fine for attributed mention in the article's body. But its Google Scholar Citation Index is zero. It even cites a song from WP's Onam article! BTW, that unsourced song was added by an IP in 2006, and no longer exists in the article. So it seems a bit fringy.

All in all, you have provided a single seemingly suitable source. On the other hand, I have provided sources by the experts of the field, and they are explaining the secular nature of the Onam after giving proper context. Once you have similar sources (authored by the experts) which call it a Hindu festival while explaining the context properly, then we will discuss about weight and mainstreamness of their views by looking at factors like citation index, e.g. Jeffery's source has a citation index of over 400, Fuller's is around 300, etc. But, as of now, you don't have any such source. Also, nobody said that Britannica isn't RS, but high-quality secondary sources are preferred over it. And we have plenty of such sources here. As far as wording regarding secularity of the festival is concerned, we can develop consensus regarding that. - NitinMlk (talk) 16:51, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

NitinMlk: Thanks. You missed a few details there. The Fuller & Benei source you like is an edited book, and the Onam chapter is by none other than Filippo Osella and Caroline Osella whom you dismiss above (#5). So if Fuller is reliable, so is #5. I do not see where they are saying it is secular festival. Yes, they are presenting the secular aspects and the politics of it. But, Osella and Osella repeatedly attest Onam as Hindu (see quote below from them). If I remember the Journal of Kerala Studies article correctly, it is by V. Sathish who is the head of history department at the Univ of Kerala Thiruvananthapuram (may be he is editor, and the paper is by Silani or a similar name). The #1 is a scholarly source published by Oxford University Press that explicitly calls it a Hindu festival, twice. #3 is an academic source that is recently published, by a faculty member in Cambridge, UK (she is from Kerala). Your reliance on google search for cite is flawed ( and that is not citation index), because Christine Frost's book was reviewed in The Journal of Interreligious Studies Volume 26 (March 2019). It is a fine source. Viniti Vaish source is secondary, yes the mention about Onam is in the passing – but you can't dismiss it because Vaish, a professor in Singapore, per AGF must have checked her sources. Now that leaves #2, which confirms the "Hindu associations". In contrast, you have yet to present one secondary scholarly source that states "Onam is not a Hindu festival" or "Onam is a secular festival and has nothing to do with any religion". I hope you will use the same critical approach and high standards for verifying the "secular" claim, as you rightfully are demanding for the "Hindu" claim. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:37, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

(ps) So you know, I previously searched for Onam and "secular festival" on paywalled-academic and free scholarship databases. I found only one article by a grad student in Kerala in 2016 or 2017 (it would fail your high standards since no one had yet cited that article, etc). Even that article first explained the Hindu mythology associated with Onam, and how the Big Tradition (Aryan) probably coopted the ancient tradition (probably because there is no textual, archaeological, etc evidence for this theory in Hindu, Jain or Buddhist texts/inscriptions/etc from the Chera era). The article then stated that Onam has evolved into a secular festival with broad participation. If you find and provide quality scholarly sources that state "Onam is a secular festival with no connection to Hinduism", we can include it in this article for NPOV. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:05, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Here is a quote from a paper by Osella and Osella (the same authors in Fuller & Benei edited book):

Probably even more extraordinary was the Onam feast prepared in 2005 by one Kozhikode Muslim family we know well. Here, women took the lead. Watching local cable TV in the run-up to Onam, several women from the family decided that it would be great fun to stage a ‘proper’ vegetarian sadhya. Sadhyas are not part of Muslim culinary repertoires; and Onam is of course not celebrated by Muslims; for it commemorates the victory of the Hindu demon king Mahabali who, in Hindu lore, founded Kerala. Contemporary Islamic reformist ulema even advise Muslims to refuse invitations from Hindu neighbours who may wish to call them to eat on Thiruvonam. From the outset, then, this Muslim family’s plan to make an Onam feast had the air of a daring and naughty secret. [...]

[emphasis added, quote on p. 186, see other pages and Onam-related footnotes as well]

In another paper by Osella and Osella, they write:

[...] Onam, the festival commemorating the victory of the Brahman dwarf Vamana (avatar of Lord Vishnu) over the asura king Mahabali (Sivan 1977: 28ff). In the past, the various Rajahs of Kerala received Onam tributes from their subjects and, in turn, attended the festival of Thrikkakara Temple (near Kochi), said to be built upon the ruins of Mahabali’s royal palace. [...] The Rajahs paid their Onam tribute to the main deity, Vamana, each sponsoring one day of the Thrikkakara festival. [...] (see Kurup 1977: 102-3; Sreedhara Menon 1965: 104-5, 170ff; Tarabout 1986: 444-47).

[they also mention in this paper that the contemporary public interpretation that Onam celebrates the annual return of Mahabali, etc]

References

So, Osella and Osella clearly and repeatedly attest/link Onam with Hindu folklores and celebrations. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:29, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

First, I didn't dismiss Filippo/Caroline Osella's source – I just clarified regarding its context. The quote/content pointed by you is in the context of the recent Hindu-Muslim conflict, whereas the Fuller/Benei source of the same authors is giving an overview of Onam, where they clearly emphasize its secular nature:

Onam is Kerala's most important festival. It is the Malayali New Year (falling between mid-August and mid-September) and it is celebrated equally by Hindus and non-Hindus as a time when the unity of the family and kin group is particularly emphasized.

So the recent Hindu-Muslim development should be dealt with proper context in the article's body. Similarly, different recent interpretations of Onam by the Hindu groups should also be included in the body with proper context. BTW, I mentioned that "they describe its secular nature" rather than "they are saying it is secular festival."

Second, we don't need to AGF on linguistic experts, psychologists, etc. as they are neither remotely connected to the field in question nor giving any context of their one-liners, and context is everything in a discussion like this one. In fact, it is embarrassing for me to tell this point to someone like you, as you already know it very well. In any case, we summarize the mainstream views of the experts of the field, and we already have relevant sources to do that. Lesser mainstream sources like that of Christine Frost seem fine for an attributed short mention in the article's body.

Third, I haven't done an exhaustive search, but there are sources which explicitly mention Onam as a "secular festival", although they seem to be of low quality, e.g.:

Onam is celebrated after the memory of King Mahabali. It is one festival which is very specific to Malayalees (Kerala). It is a truly secular festival in which people of all religions and castes take part with equal zeal. It occurs during the Malayalee month of Chingam, which coincides with Shravan Masa of the Indian calendar and it generally falls between August 15th and September 15th. The festivities for Onam last for 10 days. According to the legend, Onam celebrates the golden age of King Mahabali, a mythical ruler of Kerala.

Having said that, practically all the scholarly sources read by me emphasize the secular nature of it. Here is one more such source:

In the collective consciousness of Kerala is the myth of king Mahabali, during whose reign, all human beings were equal, and there were no lies and no deceit. The legend describes how Gods, jealous of the reign of Mahabali, tricked him to the underworld, but had to grant him the boon of being able to visit his beloved subjects once a year. Thus every year, during Onam, the national festival of Kerala, all Keralites, irrespective of caste, creed or religion, welcome the 'annual visit' of Mahabali. They cherish the poetic memories of a bygone era – a period of equity and equality. In effect, the dreams of an egalitarian society find their finer expressions in celebrating Onam during the most beautiful season of the year.

Fourth, you have mentioned an "article by a grad student in Kerala in 2016 or 2017" which "first explained the Hindu mythology associated with Onam". I guess you might be alluding to the following source:

The notion of the ideal king became an Asura and the one who vanquished him became the avatar of the god – liberating him into immortality and subsequent association of several religious practices to the festival – the myth again undergoes critical changes and yet in course of time almost as a revenge against this cultural hegemony of total strangers, Onam has evolved into a highly secular festival with equal participation from all sections of people in the Kerala region and has even become a cultural icon of Malayali people around the world integrating them, becoming the epitome of their cultural glory.

I have just glanced over it, and it states that "Onam festival have originated as a simple harvest festival of the native agricultural community of Kerala". I have no idea regarding this journal, but it is also not mainstream. I guess it might be fine for attributed mention in the body, as its author is a research scholar in the Department of Sociology, University of Kerala.

Finally, as I stated in my first comment on this talk page, I am unfamiliar with this topic. And it will require extensive searching and reading of scholarly sources to get the overall view of this topic. But I do not have time for that, as I have been spending very limited time on this project. As far as this topic is concerned, the participants should first select the highest quality sources about Onam, and then they should fix/rewrite this article while keeping WP:Weight and WP:Mainstream in mind. So far, we have the following sources: [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], & [14]. You can add the sources I missed to this list. Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 20:55, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

References

NitinMlk: The article and this talk page discussion already have used cites [5]-[11], so I am at a loss why you are listing them again. None say it is a "secular festival", none say Onam "has nothing to do with Hinduism". In fact, these authors and numerous mainstream sources explicitly say it is a "Hindu festival", such as Osella & Osella (authors in Fuller/Benei source). See the quotes above and embedded ones in the article. Even mainstream tertiary RS such as Encyclopedia Britannica state so (not quoted above). Per WP:Weight and WP:Mainstream, we cannot suppress "Hindu festival" from these and other scholarly sources.

You are mistaken about your [1] when you write, "the Fuller/Benei source of the same authors [Osella and Osella] is giving an overview of Onam, where they clearly emphasize its secular nature". No. First, the Fuller/Benei source of the same authors is also a field case study, just like their later papers. Please see the last para on page 138 of Fuller/Benei, etc. Second, all their relevant papers blend case study with overview comments about Onam. Third, nowhere in the Fuller/Benei source are Osella and Osella concluding that Onam is a secular festival. Fourth, Osella and Osella discuss Mahabali/Vamana/Vishnu at length (p. 140 onwards). That is all well-accepted Hindu mythology. Fifth, yes, they are saying that this festival is celebrated by Hindus and by non-Hindus. So has this article, in the lead and the body. Sixth, you cannot use the Fuller/Benei source to reach the new conclusion "the festival is secular", because they do not reach that conclusion! That is WP:OR violation. In fact, the authors explicitly state in their other publications that Onam is a Hindu festival, "multiple" times (see quotes above).

Thank you for noticing the quality problem with your cite [4] (ISDA). For your cite [2] (Star), you admit it too is "a low quality source". Actually, it is non-RS (have you checked Star Publishers? or the author? the author – if he is a real person, is someone who publishes with Gyan Books, a known mirror/plagiarism of websites/WP:PUS; I have struck it out above). That leaves [3] (Routledge). Onam finds a passing mention in that chapter that is about something different, in a book totally unrelated to Onam or religions or festivals, written by socio-economic welfare program researchers. How can you offer such a source, yet in the same reply you dismiss similar sources with "we don't need to AGF on (...)" and alleging "it is embarrassing for me to tell this point to someone like you"! But you are doing the same with cite [3], aren't you?! As far as substance goes, [3] does not say Onam is a secular festival, and it does mention in passing that Hindu mythology about "Gods and Mahabali". We can attribute and mention [3] in the body (Cultural festival section). We can also add a bit more about this legend, how ancient and common it is outside Kerala (see Balipratipada).

I will be willing to add "secular" label too, for NPOV, if you can find quality peer-reviewed sources that explicitly reach that conclusion. But you have yet to produce one high-quality mainstream source that explicitly concludes "Onam is a secular festival and has nothing to do with Hinduism". Remember, we cannot do WP:OR nor WP:SYNTHESIS; we cannot reach new conclusions that we cannot find in high-quality mainstream secondary and tertiary publications. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 09:31, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

NitinMlk: To avoid going in circles, to avoid OR, and to avoid misrepresenting any source, let us note what the term "secular" means in RS:

• Oxford: Secular, adj. "not connected with spiritual or religious matters"
• Cambridge: "not having any connection with religion"
• Lexico: "not connected with religious or spiritual matters".

I hope that clarifies why I am asking for multiple high quality, peer-reviewed sources that conclude it is a "secular festival and has nothing to do with Hinduism/any religion". You have yet to provide one. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:13, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

First, regarding "cites [5]-[11]", you mentioned that "these authors and numerous mainstream sources explicitly say it is a "Hindu festival"," which is not correct. Out of all these cited sources, only Osella & Osella mention it that way (in one of their relevant sources) in a Hindu-Muslim context, which you are taking out of context, as I've already mentioned in the previous comment. BTW, we shouldn't indulge in synthesis on the basis of what we consider as a "well-accepted Hindu mythology" – just paraphrase what the sources state.

Second, I mentioned that the mainstream sources "emphasize the secular nature" of Onam. And this is clear from the quotes provided by me above. As I said earlier, we can develop consensus regarding the exact wording.

Third, although I don't know regarding ISDA journal, the source is in-depth and its author is credentialed. Others may be familiar with this journal. So we should wait for their inputs as well.

Fourth, please stop editing/refactoring others' comments (see WP:TPO): the quote in question isn't a copyvio. In fact, if it is a copyvio, then it should be removed instead of crossing it out. And I guess neither Bhalla nor 'Star Publications' has ever indulged in plagiarism. Just because some authors published plagiarised works through Gyan doesn't mean that Bhalla is also a plagiarizer. But the point made by you is noted. In fact, it is enough to make your point. And others can judge the source accordingly. Your refactoring also created confusion earlier in this section.

Fifth, regarding "cite [3]", you are misrepresenting my comments. Regarding the ones provided by you, I stated that they are "neither remotely connected to the field in question nor giving any context of their one-liners". But the MacPherson's source is entirely focusing on Kerala, and it succinctly sums up Onam festival in a paragraph. So I am not "doing the same with cite [3]". BTW, I cited page no. 21, and page no. 20 is describing Kerala's religion in the form of caste. So the source has something to do with religion as well.

Sixth, for some reason, you are repeatedly giving the quotes similar to the following: "Onam is a secular festival and has nothing to do with Hinduism". But I have never claimed anything like that. What I am saying is that the lead should convey the mainstream view of the highest quality sources available. And as you can see from the previous quotes, while summing-up Onam, their focus is on equality, secular participation, Mahabali, etc. – they are not linking it with any religion. And this article's lead should also reflect that. Yes, it has been interpreted in multiple ways by multiple groups in different eras, and we should explain them with proper context in the body.

Finally, let's wait for others' opinions. Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 22:16, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

NitinMlk: The issue with Gyan Publishing/Bhalla/Star isn't Copyvio. Publications from Gyan publishers are simply unacceptable, and it is reasonable to suspect that casual books by an author who publishes with Gyan are questionable poor quality sources. On the ISDA Journal paper, you wrote, "I have no idea regarding this journal, but it is also not mainstream". Even if we ignore the ISDA paper's quality issues and that it is not mainstream, the ISDA paper does cover Hindu mythology about Onam on pp. 346–347. On [5]-[11], Osella & Osella are the authors in the Fuller/Benei edited book, [6], [10] and [11]. They repeatedly state Onam is a Hindu festival (see quotes above). Osella & Osella further state in [10] that "Onam is of course not celebrated by Muslims" (see quote above). Cush et al associate it with Hinduism. Melton discusses Onam in terms of Hindu mythology. Jeffrey mentions Vamana. Etc. In addition, I have provided enough scholarly sources and quotes above on Onam's association with Hinduism. Thank you for the explicit confirmation that you have never claimed: "Onam is a secular festival and has nothing to do with Hinduism". Given the overwhelming support in all these sources that associate Onam with Hinduism and discuss Onam in Hindu mythology context, the main and lead should summarize this association and discussion. Yes, the article's main and lead should also mention that contemporary Onam is celebrated broadly as a cultural festival, by Hindus and non-Hindus, noting the exceptions. The article already does. I support expanding the Culture festival section, adding summaries from recently identified sources such as Kurup/Osella & Osella/etc, and adding a contemporary politics section. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:47, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

As I have already explained multiple times, Osella & Osella's POV regarding the recent Hindu-Muslim conflict belongs to the body with proper attribution & context, but you are trying to dictate the lead on its basis (by quoting them out of context). Note that the other scholarly sources are not even mentioning it. And the scholarly sources – including the one by Osella & Osella (see Fuller/Bénéï source) – which are summing-up this festival are clearly describing at as the festival of all Keralites. Similarly, the mainstream sources are giving an overview of the character, rule, etc. of Mahabali to describe the theme of this festival, and we should also add Mahabali-related details (in the lead) in that context. But you are trying to use those details to add Hindu connection in the lead. Those who don't know, unlike most Indian states, Kerala has over 40% population of non-Hindus. And Onam is the "national festival" of the state.

Regarding the "explicit confirmation" about the quoted text, I just wanted to convey that, instead of replying to my points, you have been basing your arguments on the one-liners created by yourself. And I was requesting you to refrain from editing/refactoring others comments while acknowledging the connection made by you between the Gyan and the author. So it was totally unnecessary to the repeat that point in bold font.

Finally, my main purpose was to show the way Onam is described in the high quality, mainstream sources, which I have done already. And I am leaving it to others to decide the exact wording of the lead. Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 05:50, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

References

Disregard for reliable sources on these discussions has been shocking. Just because an unreliable news source claims that Onam is not a Hindu festival, doesn't mean it becomes true. My quick search of scholarly sources show this:

• "Onam, a popular major Hindu festival in Kerala"[15]
• "Onam is a Hindu harvest festival"[16]
• "Onam for Keralities, within the country and abroad, is the biggest of all festivals. Although a Hindu festival, it is celebrated without much difference by Muslims and Christians". [17]
• "though Onam is primarily a Hindu festival"[18]
• "Onam festival which is really a Hindu festival"[19]
• ""Onam" is a Hindu harvest festival"[20]
• "Onam, a Hindu harvest festival"[21]

As such we need to directly state on the lead and body that it is an Hindu festival. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:03, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

If you are serious about making a point, please add full citations, like everybody else has been doing. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:04, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Observe WP:STONEWALL. The version stood long for many years until it was unilaterally changed here. There is no consensus to retain those new edits. If you have any real objections then first gain consensus instead of restoring new edits without consensus. Shrikanthv (talk) 08:32, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2020

Request to edit the contents to make it authentic. Rthadathil (talk) 21:11, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

You can suggest edits here on this talk page on the form "please change X to Y" format with a reliable source if appropriate. – Thjarkur (talk) 21:16, 2 September 2020 (UTC)