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Merge?

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Too much overlap between this article, Sultanate of Muscat and Sultanate of Muscat and Oman. There should be one article on the period between 1650 and 1856. Srnec (talk) 00:27, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I Agree, Sultanate of Muscat lacks content and the start and end dates are wrong. Therefore merging Sultanate of Muscat in Omani Empire is completely understandable
Regarding Sultanate of Muscat and Oman its another entity that stayed even after the Omani Empire and should not be merged together. MWahaiibii (talk) 11:14, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It appears you copied this material from other articles. That's fine, but you have to attribute it in the edit summary at the very least. You should self-revert and then restore your edits with a notice linking to the articles you took the information from. Also, the refs you added are incomplete. Srnec (talk) 16:10, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A better idea: turn this into a redirect to Sultanate of Muscat and then edit that article. If you copy material make sure to note it and link to the article you copied from in the edit summary. And make sure the refs are complete. Then we can discuss the best title for that article and maybe move it to this title. Srnec (talk) 16:12, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There was a huge amount of copyright material from the web in MWahaiibii's edits. When the redirect was reinstated, MWhaiibii attacked[1] the Admin who did it and was blocked for a week. Doug Weller talk 13:49, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Can I take us back to this conversation and once again propose a merge? There's little here (well, nothing) to substantiate the title 'Omani Empire' in this article and in all of the extensive regional history I have had access to, nobody has ever postulated that Oman constituted an Empire or anything like it - in fact much of its history since the C17th has been increasingly inward-looking, focusing on the conflict between inland Saids and coastal Sultans. Trading links and some territorial outposts in Tanzania and Gwadar apart, Oman had no extensive overseas suzerainties - in fact, it was a part of Hormuz, which in the C16th governed the area from Bahrain to Muscat, as well as the islands of the Gulf - so Oman was a tributary of Hormuz, by no means an empire! Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 10:28, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The term "Omani Empire" definitely gets some usage, albeit often in scare quotes. Srnec (talk) 22:57, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I guess it's down to 'what's an empire?' and if we use the WP article on Empire, it's "a sovereign state consisting of several territories and peoples subject to a single ruling authority, often an emperor. States can be empires either by narrow definition through having an emperor and being named as such, or by broad definition as stated above in being an aggregated realm under the rule of a supreme authority."
Omani school text books are keen to assert the 'empire' but as I point out above, a few territorial involvements/possessions (and those over a remarkably short period - although trading relationships were long-standing) hardly constitutes an 'Empire'. The lede's claim that "At its peak in the 19th century, Omani influence or control extended across the Strait of Hormuz to modern-day Iran and Pakistan, and as far south as Cape Delgado." is unsourced/unsubstantiated and seems to reflect a view of permanence to what was undoubtedly a wide-ranging Omani insurrection against Portuguese control but which was a series of clashes and skirmishes rather than a formally administered series of stable territorial acquisitions. In short, there was no 19th century Omani Empire that was "an aggregated realm under the rule of a supreme authority." In fact, Omani history can celebrate few periods where that was true of Oman itself! Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 04:26, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The addition of the map [diff] is ludicrous. The map is based on two sources, one a broken link and the other a 2007 snapshot of an unidentified school text book uploaded to Flickr and claiming a territorial suzerainty for Oman that never existed. Oman never held sway over Bahrain or the southern Persian coast, let alone the West coast of the Trucial States. This is historical revisionism and is very, very questionable indeed, IMHO... The map itself is clearly WP:RS material. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 07:09, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is mostly fantasy - or fact wrangled into a fallacy. Is there any reason why it should not be made into a redirect to Sultanate of Muscat and Oman??? Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 06:28, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The map may be based on the map of the "Omani trading empire" on p. 359 of Abdul Aziz El-Ashban, "The Formation of the Omani Trading Empire under the Ya'aribah Dynasty (1624–1719)", Arab Studies Quarterly 1, 4 (1979), pp. 354–371.
The problem with Muscat and Oman is that begins arbitrarily in 1820. There is also Sultanate of Muscat. Srnec (talk) 23:33, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Map

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Please reach the census before you place this map because it is clearly disputed and contains serious errors. The map also claims the interior of Lower Shabelle and Lower Jubba which was the center of Geledi Sultanate civilization.

I will begin. The Geledi Sultanate and Hiraab Imamate were the actual rulers of the southern Somali coast while Omani influence was only nominal. They only claimed the coast but didn't actually govern it. [2]

The British explorer John Kirk visited south Somalia and debunked the idea that Omanis exerted influence in southern Somalia. He mentioned the Somali Sultan Ahmed Yusuf ruled from Mogadishu to the Jubba river (kismayo) when you read the Proceedings of the Royal Geographical Society of London, Volume 17. His father Sultan Yusuf Mahamud manage to extract tribute from the Omani Sultan just to keep his representatives in Mogadishu.

Mogadishu on the other hand was really controlled by the Sultan of the Geledi. The only representatives of the Sultan of Zanzibar were customs officers, who collected the income of a trade which had been much less influenced by new demands and forces than that of the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden. -- The Cambridge History of Africa, Volume 5 - Page 88

Barawa is located between Mogadishu and Jubba river and was considered under the Geledi Sultanate. [3]

Southern Somali coast was not like the Swahili coast. They were independent and served as ports for the larger kingdoms that ruled southern Somalia's interior. Oman had a good relationship with these kingdoms and never challenged their authority. Ayaltimo (talk) 14:57, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ayaltimo:, This map shows areas that once came under the sphere of influence of Omani authority between 18th and 19th centuries (I followed the Portuguese model), The Benaadir coast at one point without a doubt came under the Omani influence according to the majority of sources, the only thing these sources differ on (even the sources you provided above), is the nature of this foreign influence, whether it was a nominal rule or substantial. So, regardless of that, the Benaadir is confirmed to have been under the Omani authority. The existence of local Somali chiefs at the same time period doesn't contradict that at all.

"From their capital in Zanzibar the Omani Arabs extended their rule over a section of the East African coast between Mogadishu in the north and Cape Delgado in the south."
"and he had to be content with Mogadishu as his northern outpost"
"While it remained on the periphery of the Omani empire on the coast of East Africa, steady commercial penetration of Indian merchant capital based at Zanzibar inexorably drew the entire Benaadir coast into the Omani orbit."
"By the 17th century Mogadishu and other settlements of the Benadir Coast had come under the influence of Oman, in Arabia, and were colonies of the Omani ruler."
"Further south the Benadir, or Somali-inhabited Indian Ocean coast, was at the beginning of the century a protectorate of Oman, but became independent of it in the 1820s as a result of British East India Company intervention, after wich the area passed under the suzerainty of the Sultan of Zanzibar whose representative resided at the port of Brava(Barawa)."
"The remaining Somali ports, on the Atlantic coast, in Majerteyn to the north and Benadir to the south, were under the suzerainty of Oman and Zanzibar respectively."
"Sultan of Zanzibar who maintained a rather nominal sovereignty over the southern coast. While constituting one of the smallest distinctive groups in urban society the Arab garrison soldiers were a visible enough element of society."

--MWahaiibii (talk) 15:41, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

MWahaiibii Having nominal authority and actual authority are two different things. My issue with the map is it also claims parts of the interior such as Afgooye. You're also denying Geledi and Hiraab authority which were real physical states. The map does in fact contradict the authority because it claims it ruled the coast of the southern Somali coast and I'm showing you from these sources that it was truly governed by Somali states.

The sovereignty of the Portuguese was succeeded by that of Imaums of Oman , whose dominion extended from Mogadishu to Cape Delgado , about 250 miles south of Zanzibar. But this sovereignty became merely nominal.-- Zanzibar in Contemporary Times - Page 10

The real power in Mogadishu existed in the hands of the Geledi Sultanate while confirming the nominal claim by Zanzibar.

Already at this period, the Sultanate of Zanzibar claimed sovereignty over the Benadir ports, but the control exercised was merely nominal. As far as Mogadishu was concerned, it was Yusuf who had the more immediately superior power. The city was then in the hands of the Abgal, and in a state of decay and near-ruin. Two years before, Yusuf' had been called in to mediate in a dispute over the succession to the position of Sheikh; the city was divided into two hostile quarters, which had become in effect rival towns. He had arrived with an army of about 8,000 men, and gave his decision in favour of the chief of the Shingani quarter. This latter's rival, unwilling to accept the decision, but unable to resist Yusuf's superior force, escaped from the city, leaving his section of it to be ruled by a kinsman.--The social structure of southern Somali tribes - page 177

This source is from Great Britain, House of Commons (1876). Accounts and Papers volume 70 page 13. A highly verified source who went to Somalia confirmed Geledi Sultanate ruling the three major towns of Benadir.

The Somali tribe of Ruhwaina. The Chief of this and other tribes behind Brava, Marka and Mogdisho is Ahmed Yusuf, who resides at Galhed, one day's march or less from the latter town. Two days further inland is Dafert, a large town governed by Aweka Haji, his brother. These are the principal towns of the Ruhwaina. At four, five, and six hours respectively from Marka lie the towns of Golveen (Golweyn), Bulo Mareerta, and Addormo, governed by Abobokur Yusuf, another brother who though nominally under the orders of the first-named chief, levies black-mail on his own account, and negotiates with the governors of Marka and Brava direct. He resides with about 2,000 soldiers principally slaves at Bulo Mareta; the towns of Gulveen which he often vists and Addormo being occupied by somalis growing produce, cattle &c. and doing a large trade with Marka. The brother of Sultan Ahmed Yusuf, Abobokur Yusuf managed the lands opposite the Banadir ports of Brava & Marka and also received a tribute from Brava. This Abobokur Yusuf was accustomed to send messengers to Brava for tribute, and he drew thence about 2,000 dollars per annum.

Here it proves not only Oman were incapable of having the strength to establish control over the Benadir coast but they only had a commercial interest on the Benadir coast. The representatives of the coastal towns were largely custom officers and they had no influence. They were simply ambassadors.

In the Benadir, in particular, Sayyid Sa ' īd ' s interest was chiefly commercial and fiscal, for the sultan did not have the financial and human resources to impose his political supremacy in that area, nor was he keen to enmesh himself in the web of Somali politics. Throughout the nineteenth century the main centre of power in Southern Somalia was a Somali Sultanate established at Geledi... occupied roughly the territory included in the triangle Brava - Baidoa - Mogadishu and they extended their influence also to the coastal towns.--Servants of the Sharia: 1 - Page 7.

The reality is the Benadir coast was under the control of the Geledi Sultanate while nominally claimed by Oman. A plausible map would be if you just add the Swahili coast where they practiced actual authority. Ayaltimo (talk) 16:28, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So you basically added more sources which admit a nominal authority, which no where did I state that I'm against. I myself cited sources claiming nominal influence. We are discussing whether this influence which some sources describe as "nominal" while some others don't, should be included in the map. Now you have to understand that the map is labelled areas that once came under the Omani sphere of influence 18th-19th centuries. Even if it is a nominal authority, it is still an influence, which the map is all about. Therefore, NOT including an area which is mentioned by the majority of the sources about East Africa of once being definitely under the Omani authority (nominally or otherwise) is unacceptable.
"You're also denying Geledi and Hiraab authority which were real physical states."
Show me where did I deny the de facto local Somali rule? I said that their existence does not contradict with the presence of a foreign Omani authority.
"The map does in fact contradict the authority because it claims it ruled the coast of the southern Somali coast and I'm showing you from these sources that it was truly governed by Somali states."
Again, the map is showing areas that once came under the Omani sphere of influence not necessarily by direct rule, which all the sources you provided agree on an Omani influence in the benaadir coast, be it nominal or not. Thanks. --MWahaiibii (talk) 20:12, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do you know the definition of nominal? It means it only exists by name only. Oman claimed this area but they didn't actually govern the area. Even then it's wrong because I just proved to you how insignificant Omani influence was to the area. They only had commercial ties, full stop. The map also covers Afgooye the capital of Geledi Sultanate which is just an hour away from Mogadishu. It's inaccurate and cannot be disregarded. The article must be kept to a high standard. The majority of scholars actually regard Omani influence on the Benadir coast as mere nominal while admitting Geledi's direct rule over the Benadir coast. A better map would be if it includes areas where Oman actually governed such as the Swahili coast. Ayaltimo (talk) 20:42, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

First, it seems you just disregarded all the other sources that state a full Omani control over the Benadir coast. The sources are listed in my first response. Furthermore, The Cambridge History of Africa Vol 5. p. 275 states that "Sayyid Sa'id steadily gained supreme control all along the East African coast from Mogadishu to Cape Delgado." Secondly, yes I'm sure I know what nominal means. This rule that exists by name only was recognized by the local Somali chiefs, for instance:
Making the Omani influence on the Benadir coast acknowledged by the locals themselves, eligible for inclusion in the map of the Omani sphere of influence. At the end, whether it was a recognized ceremonial rule or a supreme control, the coast without any doubt did come under the Omani rulers influence. --MWahaiibii (talk) 23:09, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't disregard your sources but I've posted multiple sources that challenge and counter your sources by denying Omani control over the coast and confirming that it was actually governed by the local state (Geledi Sultanate). A real physical Somali state. These are Somali studies that go into detail. What you're doing is going around in circles. I've posted one major source from a European traveller that visited Mogadishu in the 19th century and he confirmed the Geledi domain over the Benadir coast so it's better if you just admit Oman was merely nominal so we can move on from this discussion because I've published multiple references literally refuting the claim if Oman had supreme control because they didn't.

I will publish another European explorer called John Kirk who visited Mogadishu in 1873. This is what he had to say.

The whole countryside between Mogadishu and the Juba was controlled at this time by Ahmed Yusuf, a powerful Somali Sheikh at Geledi, who commanded a force of some 40,000 tribesmen. Barawa indeed was compelled to pay Ahmed a subsidy to obtain protection.-- Proceedings of the Royal Geographical Society of London, Volume 17 page 341

The only representatives Oman had on the Benadir coast were customs officers. Please learn what custom officers are. These officials were mere representatives of the Sultan to collect customs. Their influence was even disregarded by the new demands from the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden.

If your map is just purely based on influence why can't you include India? They had representatives there including Majerteen Sultanate. It wouldn't make sense and the map literally clashes with many academic sources. Commercial representatives do not equal sphere influence. Ayaltimo (talk) 00:20, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, to avoid "going around in circles", Let's go through all the sources we both cited:
  • "In the pre-colonial history, Banadir coast was under Omani nominal authority from Zanzibar along with much of the east African coastal cities until the European scramble in the 1880s" Making Sense of Somali History Vol. 1 p. 62
-So the source supportd an Omani nominal authority over the Benadir coast.
  • "Farther south on the Benadir coast, however, the sultan of Zanzibar claimed jurisdiction as successor of the Omani rulers. His claim was established, but he was forced to share actual power with the local Somali rulers. The governor of the Benadir coast resided at Brava, which was therefore more firmly under Zanzibar rule. Mogadishu, on the other hand, was really controlled by the sultan of the Geledi, and minor ports were in the hands of members of other clans. The only representatives of the sultan of Zanzibar were customs officers, who collected the income of a trade which had been much less influenced by new demands and forces than that of the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden" The Cambridge History of Africa, Vol. 5 p. 88
-The time period in this page is ambiguous, is it referring to Sa'id ibn Sultan rule or the Sultanate of Zanzibar after 1856?
-Nevertheless, it shows that the Sultan rule was established, but he was forced to share power with local rulers of the Benadir coast.
-It then goes to show that Brava(Barawa) was firmly under the Zanzibar sultan rule.
-While Mogadishu(not the whole Benadir) is de facto controlled by the Geledi. Hence, a nominal authority. Again, just to be careful, I don't know the exact time period they are talking about, since Sa'id ibn Sultan was known as sultan of Zanzibar when he moved his capital to Zanzibar, and the successor state in 1856, Sultanate of Zanzibar's ruler was also referred to as sultan of Zanzibar.
  • "Under his son and successor, Majid (1856-70), no attempt was made to interfere with this considerable degree of autonomy enjoyed by the Somail chiefs. Majid's sovereignty seems to have been shared, however unofficially, by Ahmed Yusuf, the powerful Somali chief of the Gobron." The Swahili-speaking Peoples of Kenya's Coast, 1895-1965
-It is talking about the period of the Sultanate of Zanzibar's first ruler Majid.
-At this time period the source says that the Somali chiefs enjoyed a considerable degree of autonomy (semi-independent).
-Majid's sovereignty was, again shared unofficially by the local chief Ahmed Yusuf.
-It is referring to Sa'id bin Sultan period.
-They ruled in the coast between Mogadishu in the north and Cape delgado, but the nature of this rule varied.
  • "While it remained on the periphery of the Omani empire on the coast of East Africa, steady commercial penetration of Indian merchant capital based at Zanzibar inexorably drew the entire Benaadir coast into the Omani orbit." Muqdisho in the Nineteenth Century: A Regional Perspective. p. 458
-This author says that the Benadir coast was considered part of the Omani empire.
  • "By the 17th century Mogadishu and other settlements of the Benadir Coast had come under the influence of Oman, in Arabia, and were colonies of the Omani ruler." Somali Studies: Early History. p. 18
-Time period is in the 17th century, the beginning of the Omani expansion in east Africa.
-The author says that the Benadir coast were colonies of the Omani ruler and under his authority at this time period.
  • "The situation on the Somali coast south of Cape Guardafui was somewhat different. The hinterland was politically less organized and the long distance trade less extensive. During the seventeenth century Mogadishu, the most important of the coastal centres, had fallen under Omani authority, along with other East African ports. By the beginning of the nineteenth century, however, the Omani influence had weakened. With the exception of Mogadishu, the ports were in the hands of local Somali rulers, of whom the most important was the sultan of the Majerteyn to the north." The Cambridge History of Africa, Vol. 5 p. 57
-Again, during the 17th century the town of Mogadishu came under Omani authority.
-But in the 19th century this authority weakened (nominal authority).
  • "Further south the Benadir, or Somali-inhabited Indian Ocean coast, was at the beginning of the century a protectorate of Oman, but became independent of it in the 1820s as a result of British East India Company intervention, after which the area passed under the suzerainty of the Sultan of Zanzibar whose representative resided at the port of Brava(Barawa)." Africa in the Nineteenth Century Until the 1880s p. 385
-So, at the beginning of the century(19th century), the Benadir coast was an Omani protectorate.
-And after 1820, it came under the authority of the Sultan of Zanzibar.
-Nominal sovereignty
  • "The sovereignty of the Portuguese was succeeded by that of Imaums of Oman , whose dominion extended from Mogadishu to Cape Delgado , about 250 miles south of Zanzibar. But this sovereignty became merely nominal." Zanzibar in Contemporary Times - Page 10
-Imams of Oman(17th-century) held authority from Mogadishu to Cape Delgado.
-Which later on this authority became nominal authority.
  • "Already at this period, the Sultanate of Zanzibar claimed sovereignty over the Benadir ports, but the control exercised was merely nominal. As far as Mogadishu was concerned, it was Yusuf who had the more immediately superior power. The city was then in the hands of the Abgal, and in a state of decay and near-ruin." The social structure of southern Somali tribes p. 177
-Nominal authority
-Clearly, here it also supports a brief supreme control of Sa'id bin Sultan over the coast from Mogadishu to Cape Delgado.
  • "The whole countryside between Mogadishu and the Juba was controlled at this time by Ahmed Yusuf, a powerful Somali Sheikh at Geledi, who commanded a force of some 40,000 tribesmen. Barawa indeed was compelled to pay Ahmed a subsidy to obtain protection." John Kirk, Proceedings of the Royal Geographical Society of London, Vol. 17 p. 341
-Isn't this a primary source? Check Wikipedia:PRIMARY
-Even so, this traveler is referring to the year 1873, you seem to confuse the years and lump them all together.
Finally, to sum it up, based upon what the sources above dictate: Benadir coast came under the Omani authority in the 17th century. And a second time, in the beginning of the 19th century, precisely under the rule of Sa'id bin Sultan, it came under his supreme control from Mogadishu to Cape Delgado but weakened through the years to become only a nominal authority were power was shared with the local chiefs and continued as such under the reign of Sa'id's successor state, the Sultanate of Zanzibar.
Now you are telling me, that you cannot comprehend how all these sources agree on an Omani influence (even if briefly) on the Benadir coast, throughout the period of the thalassocracy from 17th-19th century. And to reply to your last response:
I didn't disregard your sources but I've posted multiple sources that challenge and counter your sources by denying Omani control over the coast and confirming that it was actually governed by the local state (Geledi Sultanate). A real physical Somali state.
No source you provided deny the Omani authority over the coast, they just further confirm it was a nominal authority recognized and accepted by the "physical local state of Geledi" making them the de facto rulers while the Omani rule is de jure.
If your map is just purely based on influence why can't you include India?
If you have a reliable source on Omani authority(even nominally) over India, it would be added in the map. --MWahaiibii (talk) 15:49, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Your sources relating to the 17th century are very weak and historically inaccurate. During the 17th century, Mogadishu was actually under the Ajuran Sultanate then it became the capital of Hiraab Imamate. I'll post Somali studies that have studied Benadir history.

Three major sources point out the Ajuran rule in the 17th century across southern Somalia which includes Mogadishu since it's located between Mareeg and Kismayo/Kenyan frontier/Coast Jubba.

Lee Cassaneli Page 90: Once established in the southern plains , however , the Ajuraan are said to have ruled the country from Qallaafo , on the upper Shabeelle River, to the shores of the Indian Ocean; and from Mareeg on the central Somali coast to the Jubba....[4]

Ali Mukhtar page 35: An imamate or dynasty that emerged in Somalia to control the Shabelle valley Qallafo, on the upper Shabelle, to the shores of the Indian Ocean and from Mareeg on the central Somali coast to the Kenyan frontiers in the southwest, thus controlling most of the south-central regions of contemporary Somalia[5]

Abdullahi, Abdurahman Page 59: Its territory extended from Mareeg in the Norther, (Elder district in Galmudug State of Somali); to Qallafo in the west to Kismayo in the south[6]

Mogadishu was considered a province of the Ajuran Sultanate where they defeated the Portuguese. You'll see the Ajuran map on the same page.

Abdullahi, Abdurahman Page 60: The Portuguese plan to attack Mogadishu was averted due to the preparedness of the Ajuran Mogadishu province under the rule of Muzzaffar Dynasty, who mobilized large troops that included many horsemen and battleships in defense of the city.[7]

After the fall of the Ajuran Sultanate in the late 17th century. South and central Somalia were replaced by two entities the Geledi Sultanate and Hiraab Imamate that succeeded the Ajuran Sultanate.

References to the three quotes below: The Shaping of Somali society by Lee Cassanelli

Once established, the Imamate ruled the territories stretching from Mogadishu in the Banaadir province along the coast to as far as the port town of Hobyo in the northernmost central town for at least two centuries from the seventeen hundreds and onwards.

The Hiraab Imamate's main capital was at Mogadishu and the House of Yacquub was the ruling hereditary dynasty of the Hiraab Imamate.

By the late 19th century, the Imamate began to decline due to internal problems which was the main reason for their weakening, the Imamate began to face challenges from Imperialist kingdoms, the Zanzibari Sultan from the coast, the Geledi Sultanate and Hobyo Sultanate from the interior from both directions.

Hiraab Imamate began to decline during Sultan Yusuf Mahamud era and this is when Omani imperialism began by claiming nominal authority. The source says before Geledi takeover in Mogadishu. The city was originally under Abgaal the ruling clan of Hiraab Imamate.

Dr. Virginia Luling "The social structure of southern Somali tribes" 177

Already at this period the Sultanate of Zanzibar claimed sovereignty over the Benadir ports, but the control exercised was merely nominal. As far as Mogadishu was concerned, it was Yusuf who had the more immediately superior power. The city was then in the hands of the Abgal, and in a state of decay and near-ruin. Two years before, Yusuf' had been called in to mediate in a dispute over the succession to the position of Sheikh; the city was divided into two hostile quarters, which had become in effect rival towns. He had arrived with an army of about 8,000 men, and gave his decision in favour of the chief of the Shingani quarter. This latter's rival, unwilling to accept the decision, but unable to resist Yusuf's superior force, escaped from the city, leaving his section of it to be ruled by a kinsman.

As for Barawa, it has always been under Geledi Sultanate rule. The clan in Barawa are known as Tunni and they are part of the larger Rahanweyn (digil) family and Geledi Sultanate was a Rahanweyn confederation state, basically. The Bimaal group who are the dominant clan of Merca were also part of the Geledi Sultanate.

Lee V. Cassanelli page 49: Such was the case with the Gobron lineage, which provided the hereditary chief of the Geledi tribe. The Geledi in turn constituted the genealogical nucleus of an entire Rahanwein confederacy.

Ali Mukhtar page 266: This is what some call the Geledi confederacy. The confederacy was not confined to the Digil and Mirifle but incorporated other Somalis, such as the Bimaal, Sheikhaal and Wa'daan.

As for showing clear sources of which clan territories Geledi Sultanate covered. Let me post sources of Geledi rule over their territories including Barawa/Brava.

The Geledi Sultans were at the head of a loose confederation of clans that occupied roughly the territory included in the triangle Brava - Baidoa - Mogadishu and they extended their influence also to the coastal towns.---Servants of the Sharia: 1 - Page 7

The sultan of Geledi headed an alliance of clans that extended north to Baydhabo and southeast along the coast to Baraawe.---Somalia in Word and Image - Page 71

In the 17th and 18th century Oman was under Portuguese and Persian rule while Somalia always remained independent with the sources I've just shared with you above. Middle East Economic Digest - Volume 17 - Page 830

Across the Gulf of Oman lay Persia, and over the centuries coastal Oman was subjected to numerous incursions and occupations by the Persians. Twice in the 13th Century, Oman was invaded from Persia, and the last Persian occupation took place in the middle of the 18th Century. In the early 16th Century, the Portuguese arrived and occupied Muscat and much of the coastal belt for nearly 150 years...From 1804 to 1856 Oman was ruled by Said bin Sultan, known as Said the Great.

There are sources that say during their independence in the 18th century they ruled Mombasa and Zanzibar and its peak in the 19th century ruled the Swahili coast but I want to stay on topic and not talk about Oman for us to move forward. If you look at the Roman Empire it shows a nominal and direct rule in certain regions. [8] It would be best if you could create a map dividing the influence because the map can fool people into thinking the Benadir coast and Swahili coast were equally dominated by Oman. However, there are plenty of maps that don't add territories they didn't exactly rule and I would prefer that but for us to move forward we need to agree on certain conditions because I've just proved Ajuran, Hiraab, and Geledi being real physical states and ruling the Benadir coast in their own specific timeline. Ayaltimo (talk) 19:42, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you clearly are drifting far away from our main point of conflict... What does the geographical description of Somali states have to do with our discussion of whether or not the Benadir coast came under the Omani rule? It literally proves nothing and contributes nothing to our discussion. Not only that, you are clearly showing your biased point of view saying that this country (Oman) was occupied while your country(Somalia) didn't while it have nothing to do with our subject, just when I thought we were having a fruitful discussion... Anyhow, for the sake of moving on and not wasting more time on this never-ending discussion, I'm updating the map to have the Benadir coast under a different shade for the time being. And an advice for the future, do not rely on sources such as "Servant of the Sharia", "Middle East Economic Digest" and "Somalia in Word and Image" for historical matters, I think the reason is obvious of course. Cheers. --MWahaiibii (talk) 21:20, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not drifting away from our main conflict at all. I think you got the whole thing misunderstood. There are documents during the 17th and 18th centuries where there were periods they were under Portuguese and Persian rule. If that was the case why aren't their mentions of Persia having an influence in Somalia? It was just a focal point. Nevertheless, I've responded to one of your sources where they were incorrect about the 17th century regarding the Benadir coast with multiple academics. During most of the 17th century, it was under the Ajuran authority until it was split between Geledi and Hiraab right at the end of the 17th century. The only thing that is correct was during the 19th century where they had a nominal claim. As for servants of Sharia and Somalia word and image. These references are used by major historians such as Ali Mukhtar so it was worth using them. Anyhow thanks for working this out with me. It will be better for the future. Ayaltimo (talk) 22:35, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Omani Influence in Somalia

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Hi @MWahaiibii: it had came to my attention that you keep in reverting my edits in the Omani Empire article. Now that map shows that Omani influence extended as far as the Benderi coast.

Now at the collapse of the Ajuran Empire numerous states emerged the main 2 being the Silcis Sultanate and the Muzafarids (Somalia) The Silcis controlled the ports of The Lower Jubba river and Afgooye whilst the Muzzafarids extended their authority from Benadir to Sofala (Zanzibar).source: Cassanelli 1973, 38. Source:pg 4 – The quest for an African Eldorado: Sofala, By Terry H. Elkiss. Source:[9]. The Omani Empire never controlled Banadir because it was controlled by the Muzzafarids. During the Muzzafarid Era the Omani Empire captured several ports in the Swahili coasts. [10]. Their is no source which mentions a Muzzafarid Omani conflict near the Benaderi coast which means that the Omani Empire and no encounters with Somalis during the Muzzafarid Era. The Muzzafarid Empire was succeeded by Hiraab after a long conflict and lost Benadir this supports my case because the source doesn’t mention that the Omanis took control of Benadir rather the Abgaal inserted their control over Benadir.[11] [12] [13] [14]. As you can see all these sources have nothing about Omani influence in Somalia. However their is one mention of the Omani dynasty in Casaneli book. Hiraab’s capital was Mogadishu, and their is no documents mentioning the Omani presences in Mogadishu during the Hiraab era however it is documented that Hiraab and the sultans of Zanzibar had good relations and would often trace, with these facts in mind we know that the Omani Empire couldn’t invaded Mogadishu because the Hiraab and Omanis were in good terms. [15] [Kirk, John (1873). Proceedings of the Royal Geographical Society of London, Volume 17; Volumes 1872-1873. Edward Stanford. p. 341.]. It’s true the Omani Empire claimed control over Benadir but they never really controlled it [16]. The royal geographical society of London volume 17 mentions the Omani influence in the Somali coast,

Mogadishu on the other hand was really controlled by the Sultan of the Geledi. The only representatives of the Sultan of Zanzibar were customs officers, who collected the income of a trade which had been much less influenced by new demands and forces than that of the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden. -- The Cambridge History of Africa, Volume 5 - Page 88

. The Geledi Empire was also a Major Empore which extracted tribute from the Omani Empire, Ahmed Yusuf is known to be the main reason due to the decline of the Sultanate of Zanzibar with The British as well. The Omani only extended their influence as far as the Swahili coast in Africa and never managed to take control over Somalia. Rashicy (talk) 22:11, 17 April 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Geledi Empire sorry for the spelling mistakes I’m in a rush @MWhaiibii: Rashicy (talk) 22:12, 17 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This map also shows Omani influence in Somalia and this not true the mal even shows that the Omani Empire controlled the south eastern border between Ethiopia and Somalia. [17] Rashicy (talk) 22:14, 17 April 2021 (UTC) <--- blocked sock of User:Shit233333334[reply]

Conflict about the map

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There has been a content dispute with User:Ayaltimo about [18] where he claimed the old map is more realistic, "well sourced" and agreed upon by the users, the old map undermines omani influence in some areas while in other greatly exaggerates it and gives it territories it never had (for example in reality, oman never owner qatar haasa), and also the sources on the old map do not contradict my map and might even lean towards my map more than the old map, added, the list in "source" tab in my map is far bigger, there's really no real reason to use the new map rather than the old one. Even if it has inaccuracies, it's better than the old one, which is more inaccurate, he also claimed my map has many errors but does not list them (ignoring the other map has significant errors too) and saying south somalia was nominally under omani rule, while if you open the map and look at it in south somalia, it mentions that these areas were hiraab imamate, i suggest anyone participating in the conversation does not look at thumbnail of map and judge but rather see the map key and the description text of each individual territory or the relevant territories in the discussion, as much of the map's information lies in these textsAbdurRahman Abdulmoneim (talk) 07:25, 12 June 2021 (CLT)

If you look through the multiple sources I have published it showed Geledi Sultanate ruled from Mogadishu to Jubba valley. Bimaal were part of the Geledi kingdom which I have shown and I've shown Barawa was also under the Geledi Sultanate. Your map suggested that Barawa was under the Hiraab Imamate which is a total fallacy. Your map also claimed the Benadir coast were vessels of Oman when in fact, they were simply under the Omani nominal influence while both Hiraab and Geledi states practiced real authority over the coast. This map is purely original research. If you have disputes regarding Qatar please discuss that with MWahaiibii as he can sort out the map or probably has sources himself. Ayaltimo (talk) 20:31, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Ayaltimo: i improved south somali coast according to your edits showing that geledi exerted influence or authority over the south somali states (coast), and editing the color i used to a lighter color in the geledi parts, and noting in the somali coast states from mogadishu to southern byomal that it was omani nominal influence, you can check for yourself here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Empire_of_Oman.png , also qatar part i dont see it was ever sourced or even talked about it looks like an artifact from older maps that the map author assumed is correct because it wasn't controversial. for my map being "original research" i did not come up with sources myself, i mainly used sources and information that was already there, just like the old map did, now that all the problems are resolved theres no need to use a less accurate map AbdurRahman Abdulmoneim (talk) 07:25, 12 June 2021 (CLT)
I still prefer the older map. Your map is still confusing. There was no such thing as southern Bimaal and where is Kismayo? Why did you say Hiraab or Geledi and claim it was directly under Oman using dark red? Your map claims Oman claimed the interior of central and northeastern Somalia which is false. My message still stands. Me and the other users preffered the other map. That map brought peace between many editors. I'm not the only one you should convince there are others as well. Let's end it here. Ayaltimo (talk) 23:59, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Ayaltimo: if you look at a somali clan map, the bimal are split as i showed them, there is infact a bimaal in the south. i showed kismayo now as geledi acording to what you said, also the dark red does not necessitate that it's direct authority, also i've fixed now the part where i claimed oman claimed the interior, you can check the updates for yourself in the file page. "preference" means nothing if the old map is heavily inaccurate, the new map is much more accurate and presents more useful information AbdurRahman Abdulmoneim (talk) 1:06, 13 June 2021 (CLT)
AbdurRahman Abdulmoneim Instead of seeking edit war which can get you banned. Please first continue the discussion in order to improve this matter. The map is disputed. You can't just put a map without seeking approval from other users who have disputes with it. Please follow the BRD policy because you're breaking the rules here. Alright, now back to the discussion. You've improved the map but there are stills tons more errors. Where is Merca? Instead of calling the Bimaal place between Mogadishu and Barawa as Bimaal call the place Merca and why does the southern coast of Somalia have a different colour pattern from each other? Mogadishu, Merca, Barawa, Warsheikh and etc should have the same colour, and where is the nominal colour pattern that says nominal influence? Why call it uncertain influence? Why did you paint these Somali kingdoms as status uncertain when they are well known? Put them as allies and independent states on the colour and remove uncertain status on the map. Please don't make any changes after this simply show the map here. Ayaltimo (talk) 22:08, 13 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Ayaltimo: I did not edit war, i followed the 3r rule, there is no user i know of that declared his dispute with the map except you and the alleged sockpuppet that you reverted his edit, i am trying to follow the BRD policy, i will consider your suggestions for improving the map AbdurRahman Abdulmoneim (talk) 12:18, 14 June 2021 (CLT)
@Userd898: Have you not learned anything? Please seek consensus before making changes. Ayaltimo (talk) 07:51, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Userd898: Please learn the wiki policy before engaging in edit warfare. You don't solve problems with force because I can simply revert back and report you. I have asked for a discussion and you're still doing the same mistake. You have been warned. Please understand talk pages exist for a reason. If you read my last comment, you would understand my concern about the map. If you have updated the map, you could've tagged me and showed me here instead of doing things your own way. Please understand we're a community, this is not your personal page. Ayaltimo (talk) 10:10, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Ayaltimo: I was open to conversation before and tried to reach an agreement, and even updated the map multiple times according to the rather vague sources you provided just to reach and agreement, yet you continue to defend the old map which even it's sources dont agree with it. the problem here is that while talking about a claimed user consensus which isn't actually true, i tried to seek such consensus but you yourself stood infront of it and continued to attack it on... the basis of consensus. I don't see any other user complaining about the map, and there's no execuse to not use the new map after propper evidence was provided. also you're not an admin to remove my whole talk page and replace it with a fake notice saying i can get blocked, i'm not disrupting or edit warring. HOWEVER i'm still open to friendly conversation with the goal of reaching consensus, but i prefer it be on a dedicated site such as discord or reddit as it's easier to share sources, images, have long debates, and more friendly tone there than the professional-oriented wikipedia. you can give me your discord tag (and if you dont have an account, maybe make a temporary one) but if you don't want to share it, i can give you mine and you send me a friend request so i know it's you. userd898 (talk) 18:32, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Userd898: Listen, let's stick to the topic here instead of diverging. You have not made any agreement with me. You have violated the consensus by updating the map without tagging me. This is the talk page where we can have a discussion. All you had to do was update the map here on the talk page by showing me a link and tagging me but instead, six months later you're still doing the same thing. By the way, I have not removed your talk page. Your talk page did not exist prior to my warning and just because I am not Admin does not mean you can negate the rules of Wikipedia. I'll list the issues with the map I have. The old map only showed direct and nominal territory. If you look into other empires/kingdoms, they do not showcase territories they once claimed so it's better to remove it because it's unnecessary. You named Somali kingdoms "Status uncertain" when you could've simply put independent states. Instead what you're insinuating is these kingdoms may have been under Omani control which is historically inaccurate and I can even pinpoint that Geledi at one point had the upper hand in East African affairs compared to Oman. Also, Oman/Zanzibar did not go beyond Lamu so the southern tip of Somalia including Kismayo should share the same colour as other coastal cities in Southern Somalia and change the name for light pink as nominal influence instead of uncertain influence. I don't know why you put Geledi or Hiraab right at the bottom when Hiraab was situated in central. This is why I preferred the old map because it was straightforward and was already referenced. If you have corrected the map, post it here on the talk page by sending it via link. Ayaltimo (talk) 07:28, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The map is fake

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Eastern Arabia (eastern Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Bahrain) were never under Omani rule

Eastern Arabia was under the rule of Banu khaled who were succeeded by the Saudis

Omanis never ruled it. 46.184.88.128 (talk) 13:13, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]


The map is incorrect

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The Omani empire never controlled any land in current Somalia. I have also read trough the whole text no mentions about Somalia or any Somali cities. I will wait for a week to get a response which provides sufficient claims and proof that the omanis had controll of these Somali cities. I

It is impossible that the Omanis controlled the same land that the Somali sultanates controlled during the exact same time. Ajuraan sultanate and Sultanate of geledi during the timeline 1696-1856 controlled the lands that the map claims and there is solid proof on that matter and wikipedia pages that can back my claims. @Vif12vf: Whhy did you put the map back even tho it is incorecct i fixed it and u just put it back to the wrong map. 

Theguywholearnhistory (talk) 16:54, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
the old map had the same "inaccuracy", and if you zoom in on the map it only depicts some ports paying tribute, while only the rest of the coast is clearly labelled as a de jure claim, and the current wikipedia article is currently lacking in terms of text so rely on sources mentioned in the file page rather than the article itself. AbdurRahman AbdulMoneim Userd898 12:57, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Flag and Emblem

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Now this is just my surface level research but:

Firstly, the emblem used is the modern Emblem of Oman. It was first used in the mid-18th century by the ruling Al Said dynasty and then only used as a symbol of the Sultanate. It may have been used in the wider empire but I would suggest that some sort of note is made about this.

Secondly, the flag File:Om 1958.gif is noted as the flag of the Empire in multiple other articles (here). I would assume the File:Flag of Muscat.svg was likely used at this time anyway but if there is a historical flag specific to the empire then that might be preferable. Pickled Pigeon (talk) 15:06, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Broken Source

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The RAF Museum source is broken. It has been archived, though. The most recent functional snapshot on archive.org's Wayback Machine was from February 15th, 2020, I would suggest using that instead, maybe I'll do that later myself if I get to it. Kelvinnkat (talk) 16:10, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Somalia

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@Gobroon: You say that it was impossible for areas in Somalia to be under Omani influence and yet you have provided no sources. In The Islamic World it states on p.42

"It was Sayyid Sa'id who transferred the capital of the Omani empire from Oman to Zanzibar in 1832. From 1832 to 1856, Zanzibar was the capital of a vast empire that included Oman and the Swahili coast from Mogadishu in Somalia to twelve miles south of the Rovuma River in northern Mozambique."

It clearly shows that the Omani Empire had at least some authority over the Somali states. Wowzers122 (talk) 17:18, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your actions seem to be intentionally provocative. It's essential to acknowledge the impact of the Geledi Sultanate, which enforced tribute from the Omanis, and the influential Hiraab Imamate. Disregarding two Somali kingdoms that held sway in those regions in 1832 based on one book, especially when more than 40 other books present a different view, appears foolish. Also we are disputing the text you added and im more than welcome to come to a consensus with you but stop changing the map. I talked with the guy who made the map privately he told me that i can change it to another map. He gave me the one im sending right now since he believes its more accurate if you want proof add me on discord gobroon. Gobroon (talk) 20:26, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"In the pre-colonial history, Banadir coast was under the Omani nominal authority from Zanzibar along with much of the east African coastal cities until the European scramble in 1880s. However, the Hirab Imamate and the Geledi Sultanate who succeeded the Ajuran Imamate in Mogadishu and its surrounding regions were local rulers of the region. Moreover, the Geledi sultanate ruled parts of southern Somalia during the late-seventeenth and nineteenth centuries. It was founded by Ibrahim Adeer who defeated the Sil'is dynasty and made its headquarters in the city of Afgoye (30 km south of Mogadishu)." [19]https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Making_Sense_of_Somali_History/X1dDDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=oman+nominal+mogadishu&pg=PA62&printsec=frontcover
I can keep going all day with more sources but if the only thin you got is that source then i think you should lay down the bullcrap and start actually being orderly. Gobroon (talk) 20:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I hope you know what nominal means Gobroon (talk) 20:39, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gobroon: My intentions were not aimed at provocation. I sincerely apologize if my actions were interpreted in such a manner. I could also go on and on with sources mentioning the Omani Empire spanning along the Somali coast, but I do not care that much about Oman. Yes, I do know what nominal means, and was it not what the old map said? The regions in Somalia were labelled as nominal, but I can also recognize the potential for confusion in marking them in pink. Nevertheless, my preference would be to revert to the previous map's design, excluding the Somali areas, as it had a higher level of detail. Wowzers122 (talk) 00:50, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"The map maker suggested removing the Somali parts, and I've done that. However, you mentioned concerns about the quality. Could you possibly fix the map and remove the Somali sections without compromising the overall map quality?". If not should we just take back the one i made before where i removed the Somali parts? Gobroon (talk) 09:01, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Flag

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What's the source of the flag pictured in the infobox? I know it appears listed in the article for the flag of Oman, but, Wikipedia is not a source, and that flag has no source whatsoever. Furthermore, I can't find that flag anywhere except in English Wiki. It's not in the Arabic Wiki, for example.

If someone has any idea were it comes from, please, let me know, otherwise, it should get removed and changed for the plain red flag which is supported by sources.

I'll wait to see if anyone is interested in this and, if no one replies in a month or so, I'll just implement the changes myself. Gue101 (talk) 03:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for double posting, but, the Coat of Arms, as mentioned in this talk page last year, is that of the Al Said dynasty. The Coat of Arms thus can't be prior to 1744, and it seems it was actually adopted in the late 19th century as the earliest date mentioned. It should also be taken out of the article. Gue101 (talk) 03:25, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's now December and no one commented anything, I'll just remove the unsourced material. Gue101 (talk) 02:18, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect map

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Omani empire includes 14 countries 212.72.0.149 (talk) 21:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would help the people making the maps if you could name the countries and provide sources. Gue101 (talk) 03:23, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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