Talk:Okouzlená

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Requested move 6 November 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. The consensus is that the proposed title is the most common name. Jenks24 (talk) 01:57, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Enchanted (1942 film) → Okouzlená – This seemed straightforward, but my previous move has been reverted. "Okouzlená" is the film's actual name, and the one that appears in sources about it, including the only two sources given in the article[1][2] and various others.[3][4][5][6] There are very few reliable sources for the film in English, and haven't found any in either English or Czech that call it "Enchanted"[7] (IMDB does, but notes that "Okouzlená" is the "original title", and the entry is questionable as it contains little information). The results are thrown off a bit by a different film by the same director named "The Enchanted House"; this is not that movie. Okouzlená is also natural disambiguation, which is preferable to titles in parentheses, and is also obviously more WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE.
[edit]Since this came up below: WP:UE policy indicates that "If there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject".--Cúchullain ^t/c 02:37, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support as long as the remaining redirect is not deleted and that redirect is tagged Template:R from alternative language. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:02, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - None of your sources are English. English Wikipedia titles foreign film articles by the title used in the Enlish-speaking world. WP:NCF. Film Fan 23:17, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What English sources call it "Enchanted"? The only one I found is IMBD, which is not reliable per Wikipedia:RS/IMDB.--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:47, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No idea. But I'm afraid your links are all irrelevant. Film Fan 01:14, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No they're not. Per WP:UE: "If there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject".--Cúchullain ^t/c 02:33, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If this film is notable enough for an English Wikipedia entry, there must be some reliable sources that mention it. Your job is to find them. Film Fan 10:08, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For one thing, items don't necessarily need English-languag sources to have an article, notability can be established perfectly well by non-English sources. For it's certainly not "my job" to find such sources, though I assure you I did look, and didn't turn up anything.--Cúchullain ^t/c 11:57, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is, without sources there is no more evidence of Okouzlená than there is of Enchanted. And for that reason, I would leave it as it is or delete the page entirely. Film Fan 12:19, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I provided a number of sources that use Okouzlená. As I say, non-English sources are fine per WP:GNG, and per WP:UE, we defer to the title they use if there aren't enough English sources, as is the case here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:24, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Calidum T|C 23:51, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per FF. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 19:09, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. FWIW I *am* in favor of using the English title for films, but the evidence that Enchanted actually is the English title for this film is currently lacking. If something more conclusive than IMDb and a few random websites can be found, we can reconsider then. SnowFire (talk) 04:55, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Opposition needs to provide multiple reliable sources using such name other than the transliterations made by IMDb, an unreliable source. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 23:45, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. No reliable source for the name "Enchanted". O N R (talk) 03:14, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Opposition has not provided the necessary evidence for their claim that this film is named "Enchanted" in English. Egsan Bacon (talk) 18:07, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Plenty of reliable sources call it Okouzlená; no reliable sources call it Enchanted. How is this move controversial? —GrammarFascist _contribs ^talk 23:01, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Because of an WP:INVOLVED admin who tried to WP:GAME the system. That's why. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 09:25, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't rely on personal attack as a support for your position. It is utterly unpersuasive, other than perhaps against any actual argument you may have. —GrammarFascist _contribs ^talk 15:33, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well it's the truth. Sorry if you don't like it. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 15:35, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Want another block for telling "the truth". Continue then. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 23:34, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And you are? Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 10:15, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is pretty silly, Lugnuts. the truth is that I was not an "involved admin", as there were no admin actions involved, and making a perfectly reasonable and policy-based move is not "gaming the system".--Cúchullain ^t/c 03:20, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support for reasons I articulated at Talk:Enchanted (2007 film) and will repeat here:

I also cannot find evidence of the 1942 film being called Enchanted. There is also a 1998 film listed at the disambiguation page, but a search for reliable sources turned up nothing to establish notability. Am fine with the 2007 film being at Enchanted (film) unless there is evidence to warrant disambiguation.
I've been researching this matter a bit. This does not mention this film with either title (see screenshot). This does not mention the film, either. Nor obituaries in The Independent and Česká pozice. However, the book Czech New Wave Filmmakers in Interviews shows this filmography where Okouzlená is mentioned without an English-language title like some other films have. Also may be worth noting that the film database of Okouzlená shows no English-language title where a film from the same year, Přijdu hned, shows that it has the English title I'll Be Right Over.

Thanks, Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 03:36, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.