Talk:Nordic countries/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Economy

The Economy, Culture and geography part of the article is very thin, to say the least. It's better to remove it, or fill it with something useful.

// VonCarlsson @ Swedish Wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.66.88.195 (talk) 20:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Right now the Economy section is nothing but a photo gallery. It's completely useless. I agree that unless it can be filled with proper information on the Nordic countries similar to other articles that have economy sections, it should be removed. 72.51.47.60 (talk) 15:01, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Misc

I'm not skilled enough within Wikipedia to dare to change this, but in the list 'Largest metropolitan areas in the Nordic countries' the population of Copenhagen is bigger than the one of Stockholm yet Stockholm is number one on the list.

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Do we have permission to use this image from www.lysator.liu.se? (See today's discussion in talk:Nag Hammadi, and also "Article content policies" in Wikipedia policy.) --Zundark, 2001 Nov 1

Probably. See [Lysator/Talk].

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The term Nordic countries refers to the group of countries collaborating in the Nordic council. The term is recent and arose out of need after the second world war when the Nordic Council was formed. Another term is the Scandinavian countries which refers to the ambitions to unite Sweden-Norway and Denmark politically. While it is possible to talk about a single Scandinavian country or even a single country as a member of the Nordic council, the term Nordic countries is merely used to describe the countries collectively. The term Nordic country describes at best something enterely different than one of the Nordic countries, or is else a non-term. /mic 14:31 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)

Including local name for area

In other Wikipedia articles of similar nature, the local name of the area is included in the article. It is my understanding that the term Norden is the one used in at least Scandinavia. Should we include this term in paranthesis in the first paragraph of the article?

I have created a redirect for Norden to this article.

Bosse Klykken 17:22, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Is Germany actually one of the Nordic lands? I posted that before and thought I was right, but now I'm not sure.Mauipsyko 23:28, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Not in this sense...

What about the norwegian/swedish union? This is the 100th anniversiary of its ending, it ought imho be mentioned (but I'm not knowledgable enough to write about it).

Estonia - "Nordic with a Twist"?

It should be noted that in Estonia there is a rather popular movement in identifying Estonia as a Nordic country. This has even included half-serious calls to change the Estonian flag to a Nordic cross (some examples of the Estonian cross-flag can even occasionally be seen in use) as well as propagating the use of the word Estland as the name of the country in English.

Some of the arguments for alignment as a Nordic country what has been forwarded are: the cultural and linguistic closeness to Finland; the lack of similar strong cultural and linguistic ties with Latvia or Lithuania; the historical and cultural ties with other Nordic countries; example of Finnish success which made a conscious transition from being a Baltic country to a Nordic country; example of Nordic welfare state as a goal for Estonia (mostly promoted by the Social Democratic Party); example of Nordic political conservative tradition (sometimes promoted by conservative politicians agreeing with the need to identify Estonia as a Nordic country, but rejecting the socialist welfare-state model)

Some information about this can be found here: http://www.flag.de/FOTW/flags/ee-ncros.html http://www.norden.org/ncba4/sk/kortgott030429.asp#Estland http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/kultur/did_6547214.asp

Whilst welcoming any self-designation and identification of a country or people - and bearing in mind that all of these "groupings" are just arbitrary polarities which have changed during history, I can't refrain myself from making a few comments. 1. Finland has not made any "conscious transition from being a Baltic country to a Nordic country". First of all, Finland is the very reason for a specific northern European polarity (and a term) outside of a solely Scandinavian mindset. Due to its close historical, cultural, economic and judicial association with Scandinavia (and vice versa), Finland, with both Finnish and Swedish as official languages, is a fundamental part of a similar cultural sphere. 2. Finland has never been considered a "Baltic State", not even as a part of imperial Russia (it was considered "Russian with a twist" ;). 3. The terminology is unambiguous in the Scandinavian languages and Finnish: Pohjola-Norden has for a long time (long before the establishment of the term Scandinavia) meant the entities that later became the countries known as Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland. This concept has been translated into English under the term "Nordic Countries" (originally from French: pays Nordiques) with varying success as English speakers tend to confuse the concept with the concept of Scandinavia. Clarifer

Clarifier,

1. In the 1920s Finland chose to distance itself from the so-called baltic entente and to associate itself closer with Scandinavia. In Estonia Finnish policy of that time is interpreted as a conscious step to become a Nordic state in stead of a Baltic State. Ironically at that time it was Estonia which was the most active proponent of the Baltic entente. 2. The current application of the term Baltic States to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania stems from the Soviet occupation of these countries in 1940. At least the 1939 abridged edition of Estonian Encyclopedia defines the Baltic States as the states on the eastern shore of the Baltic sea that gained sovereignty at the break-up of imperial Russia. The word Baltic States originally surfaced in imperial Russia as reference to the German dominated Estland, Livland, Courland and Latgale provinces (the territories of current Estonia and Latvia) with their own "Russian with a twist" regime. 3. In Estonian, Estonia is historically and consistently referred to as põhjala and põhjamaa (for example in songs "Õnne, Eesti rand ja saared", "Laul Põhjamaast or even the more recent "Põhjamaa Neid") which are the equivalent of Finnish pohjola (which has several meanings). The Estonian version of Wikipedia defines "põhjala" as a territory including Scandinavian peninsula, Finland, Carelia, Kola peninsula, Ingerland and Estonia with possible inclusion of Latvia. The Estonian translation of Nordic Countries/Norden/Pohjoismaat is Põhjamaad.

Greetings! Again, one should not confuse Pohjola-Norden with Skandinavia-Skandinavien. 1. The interpretation from a Nordic country point of view seems to differ from the Estonian one. After the Finnish independence of 1917 it was only natural for it to simply RE-ESTABLISH its age-old ties with its closest neighbours and vice versa. The Estonian interpretation of this seems to be that Finland consciously turned itself away from something it had previously been part of (?). However, to my knowledge, Finland has never associated itself with e.g. Latvia and Lithuania, countries alien to Finland when comparing them with e.g. Norway and Sweden. This point of contacts, to my understanding is quite different with regard to Estonia which shares a great deal of cultural and historic past with Latvia and Lithuania. 2. Yes, the term "Baltic states" stems PRIMARILY from imperial Russia as you point out. Under the Russian empire, Finland, however, was never considered a Baltic state. 3. I was previously not aware of the meaning of Pohjala in Estonian. It seems indeed that the current usage of Pohjala is not equivalent with the current usage of the terms Pohjola/Norden in the Nordic countries. With all this said, I again emphasise that this terminology is nothing absolute and subject to changes in their interpretations across history. Clarifer

I agree that Scandinavia should not be confused with Pohjola-Norden. The Estonian movement to identify Estonia as a Nordic Country is clearly based on the premises that while whether Estonia is or is not a Nordic Country is not established, such terminology is not absolute and is subject to change. And if it is subject to change then it is possible to influence how it changes. Also I would like to stress that there is no real consensus on this subject in Estonia. While most Estonians would agree that Estonia is definitely a Põhjamaa, however the issue becomes murky when Estonians would be asked if Estonia was one of the Põhjamaad, i.e. Nordic Countries. Most would probably answer no or not yet. Still, as this movement is existing and as the slogan "Nordic with a twist" is used in advertising by the Estonian state, I hope this discussion is interesting to some.

1. Finnish ties with Sweden are obvious, but its ties with other Nordic Countries are really not that tight. There is nothing unusual or surprising in Finland wanting to highlight and re-establish its ties with Sweden after gaining its independence, but Finland could have made also other choices.

Likewise Estonian ties with Finland are obvious. On grassroots level these ties are easily comparable to ties between Finland and Sweden, and possibly even exceeding those.

Estonian ties with Sweden are weaker than those between Finland and Sweden, but are significant nonetheless. Estonia has been part of the Swedish kingdom (the time generally referred to as the "old good swedish times" in Estonian folklore - note how this differs from Finnish view of these times), Estonia does have/has had a native Swedish minority (which almost completely destroyed in WWII, but does shows some small signs of revival, of course this was not and will never be comparable to the proportion of Swedish population in Finland), Estonian economy is dominated by Swedes and Finns alike. Estonian culture is an eager recipient of Swedish imports - the latest example being another Swede chosen to represent Estonia at this year's European Song Festival (if that qualifies as culture).

Estonian ties with Denmark are arguably stronger than comparable Finnish and Danish ties. Various parts of Estonia have at various times been part of the Danish Kingdom, the Dannebrog allegedly originated in a battle for Tallinn (and the name of our capital is still short for Danish Town - Taani Linn), Estonian-Danish defence cooperation has long traditions (hailing from Danish volunteer battalion serving in the Estonian war of independence in 1918-1920) and of course Danish economic interests in Estonia are considerable.

Estonian ties with Norway and Iceland are not that strong. The old sagas seem to refer to Aests, Laps and other Finnic people with approximately the same frequency. At least one Norwegian royal had to spend time as a slave in Estonia after being caught captive by Estonian vikings/slavers, a small group of Estonian volunteers participated in the defence of Norway against German invasion in 1940 and similar anecdotal ties are easy to find.

In comparison:

Estonia does have clear historical ties with Latvia, but these ties are mostly through shared conquerors - Germans, Swedes and Russians. On grassroots level the ties are limited (while most Estonians living in northern Estonia speak at least some Finnish and there is considerable number of Swedish speakers, the ability to speak Latvian is a novelty - unlike Swedish and Finnish, Latvian is not taught in any public high schools in Estonia - nor is Estonian taught in Latvia).

Estonian ties with Lithuania are limited to the shared experience of Soviet occupation. Lithuania wasn't part of the Baltic special regime in the Russian empire and is a predominately catholic country.

Per Högselius has done a good job of describing the criticism and arguments for the Estonian bid in Svenska Dagbladet (the link above). I urge all Swedish speaking readers to take a look.

Estonia is without a doubt one of the Baltic states. It is not a Nordic country and thus, for example, doesn't have a place in the Nordic council ("Facts about the Nordic Region and Nordic Co-operation"). Estonia's attempts to change from Baltic to Nordic seem strange. What's wrong with being Baltic? Do'Urden 13:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't seem the least bit strange to me that some Estonians feel they belong to the same cultural "block" as Finland, given the similar language and recent large Finnish influence. And they can be both Nordic and Baltic, there are already large cooperation between the groups. I'd certainly not personally oppose full membership for Estonia to the Nordic Council. For Wikipedia it doesn't matter though, it should just notice the existence of the movement, and the fact that they are not currently considered a Nordic country by anything resembling an institutional autorithy.--Per Abrahamsen 21:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

To me it's strange but in a way understandable. You bring up an interesting point about the relations between Finland and Estonia, but in reality the relations are not particularily close. Not even remotely comparable to the relations between Finland and Sweden, for example. The languages (Finnish and Estonian) are also so distantly related that without studying each others languages, neither nationalities are able to understand the other. The real reasons for the Estonian aspirations to become Nordic must lie in something else. I'd wager that most likely the reasons are in internalized stereotypes of Baltic nations being "inferior", "Eastern European" and "Soviet", and so the Estonians want to make a social distinction upwards in relation to Latvia and Lithuania by defining themselves Nordic. That kind of thinking is of course utterly ridiculous as all of the three Baltic states have strong identities and rich, interesting cultures and histories of their own, and are in no way whatsoever inferior to anyone, but could it perhaps be the case that some of them think so themselves anyway?. --Do'Urden 22:15, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The languages (Finnish and Estonian) have many linguistic similarities and only a minority has received Finnish lessons in school while being able to speak it on at least some basic level. The relations between the two countries are relatively close, compared to for example Estonia-Sweden or Estonia-Latvia. Whilst geographically and linguistically a Nordic country the Soviet era widened the cultural gap a lot. Alepik (talk) 22:33, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Back to the Ee topic. It is clearly visible Estonian editors' attempt to change Estonia from Baltic to Nordic. They strike in their claims everywhere. Basic Ee statements are improper.

For instance, Ee statement: Ee-s are not Balts in ethno-linguistical sense, thus they must be nordic. Germans and Russians are either, thus they must be nordic too.

Secondly, "Ee and Fi languages are very similar". I do not say that languages are not similar but yet, they are not mutually understandable without special learning.

Thirdly, the statement that Finland has made "conscious transition from being a Baltic country to a Nordic country". That is wrong- Finland had never been Baltic country. It participated briefly in negotiations on Baltic Entente in the beginning of 1920ies but then quickly distanced itself from it. The same goes for Poland. Somewhat ironically, that was Ee government what was the most eager actuator of the Baltic entente. Finland had been inseparable part of Swedish realm for 800 years in row and it has made not any "conscious transition from being a Baltic country to a Nordic country". It is sooner "Sweden with a Twist".

Krakeni9 13:51, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Finno-Ugrics vs other North Germanic peoples

How do Finno-Ugrics have more part in this world and the UK doesn't, when the Finno-Ugrics were people who were Crusaded against and not full participants in the Nordic world? There is a sort of bias against the Anglophones, with some falsified differences. Religious architecture in Norway and Denmark was early influenced by England, while the Norwegians went with the English to the Holy Land. What was the Danelaw? Who was Canute the Great? Who are the Normans? WTF?! Why are the special cases of Scots-Irish lands included, but the very large position of England ignored? Just think; the English are almost the exact same people as the Danish, save for differing concentrations of certain tribal heritages! The Anglo-Saxons came from Schleswig-Holstein, which was totally Danish between 737-19th century! Jutes from Jutland and Danes from Zealand. Why do some occasionally pick the Frisian lands as Nordic, but not the English? Gee, let me think? The Franks were from Frisia! Even Poland-Lithuania is Nordic! Some of this is due to Lutheran prejudices, but their churches and Anglicanism are equally Episcopal! If one wants to make it a case of those peoples beyond the Danevirke, count the English in and rest of the Continent OUT! BTW, don't mistake the English for Romano-British Welshmen. This clique is anti-Roman. 68.110.9.62 04:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

"Just think; the English are almost the exact same people as the Danish, save for differing concentrations of certain tribal heritages!"

I believe that the above statement is ridiculous, based upon your obvious "race oriented" attitude. If something is clear then it is that (Northern) Germans appear to be much closer to Danes than English. English people are a very special case, clearly different from Scandinavians; they may have a few nordic traits, but all this is mixed up with lots of traits from Southern Europe as well. And the Celts themselves are not nordic at all, but of completely different heritage than the Germanic peoples, linguistically anyway. Ancient Roman authors described part of the Ancient inhabitants of the British Isles as dark people, and in no way as the same kind of "nordic" people they found in "Germania" - if we really are going to discuss those "race" topics.

But anyway, apart from characterics of welfare system, relationship with the surrounding nature and some common political history, I consider _language_ to be much more important than "race". And clearly, while English is a Germanic language, it is neither a North Germanic language nor even a mere West Germanic language, for it is the one special language (among the Germanic languages) which has lots and lots of Romance characteristics (stemming from (older) French and only indirectly from Latin) - some claim that about 40% of modern English is French by its origin and/or nature.

As a Dane I cannot see how anyone would consider the British Isles as part of the nordic countries.

212.227.103.74 16:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

the anglo-scandinavian racial, cultural, historical links are undeniable.

and so are the Romance and Celtic ones.

i agree with you that british territories can't really be considered nordic (nowadays), because i think that the concept is ultimately a modern political invention - which i fully endorse! - but which has nothing to do with england.

but i feel bound to reply to your post because you have the facts all wrong! england and the british isles were intimately bound up in nordic and scandinavian history until this was broken by the norman invasion in 1066.

No, I don't have my facts wrong, and no need to shout! In spite of the (potential or obvious) links you mentioned there is not much left today, or not enough to justify any classification together with the Nordic countries.

oh, i'm sorry, i didn't mean to be rude :s no, as i said, i don't intend for england to be classed as nordic - only to demonstrate that 'nordic' has no rigorous historical/linguistic/etc roots, and that 'nordic' is really just a modern political idea. kieron 20:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

"race"

• i'm sure you're aware that the inhabitants of britain in ancient times were celts, and that after the fall of the roman empire, the island was invaded by angles, along with some other tribes (including saxons and jutes (i.e. tribes from jutland)). the angles kicked out the celts (pushing them out to wales, cornwall, scotland, ireland and brittany) and formed the kingdom now known as 'england.' the angles originated only just to the south of jutland. so yes, the english do originate from the same racial stock as the nordic and german peoples, "if we really are going to discuss those "race" topics."

I don't deny that origin, but you seem to deny or underestimate the Romance and Celtic impact. Not to mention the fact that many people appear to confuse the Celts with Nordic people which they were not, though those same people stress that very Celtic character of the British Isles. That's a little bit funny.

language

• well, for a start, finland is classed as nordic, yet does not speak a north germanic language. unless you claim that finland is only considered nordic cos of its swedish-speaking minority. which most would disagree with, i think. like, come on...

Oh no, I didn't think of the swedish-speaking minority. And yes, I am not that satisfied to see Finland included. But here we come to the field of geographics and nordic character of the societies and political systems, I would say.

precisely. kieron 20:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• as i said, when the angles invaded (what would later become) england, they were accompanied by a significant number of jutes. the north-germanic influence was already present, therefore, at this point. even before that, old english shared many features of north germanic languages, as it has its origins only just to the south of jutland, even though it is 'technically' classed as west germanic. (note that any attempt to classify languages into

What you call "technically" classed is still common consense, isn't it? In spite of some north germanic impact, it is essentially west germanic, I am sure. Of course, one may think of those "sk" forms, such as in "landscape" which according to west germanic rules should rather be "landship"... And there are words coming from north germanic, like "sky". True. But that's about all there is to say.

genetic trees (such as 'north germanic' versus 'west germanic') always ends in failure. there can be no rigorous, scientific classification of languages in this way; linguists who attempt to do so simply choose the evidence that supports their case and ignore the rest of the evidence. the division of the romance languages into east/west romance is a major case in point.)

No doubt about it, but those models make some sense (to a degree).

no - the very fact that there are exceptions shows that the genetic models do not work. these are exactly the sort of

I don't (fully) agree.

exceptions that linguists have glossed over in making their tree models - they have made arbitrary decisions. plus these models are unable to take into account the effects of adstrate influence. sure, they make sense when you compare a germanic dialect from northern scandinavia with a central european one. but they stop making any sense when you come to borderline dialects - such as old english itself, not satisfactorily classifiable in any of the linguists' neat categories, and sharing features with both (as well as having innovative features of its own). catalan presents a similar problem to romance tree models. kieron 20:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

So northern German dialects wouldn't be clearly westgermanic either, since they share with the nordic languages the absence of an important vowel shift (diphthongization of those ancient long vowels); in fact, this phenomenon can still be observed throughout large areas all over the German speaking territories, namely in Switzerland as well - and it is something that has been lost in English and which for those German speakers who don't use it in their own language is something very strange or maybe hard to understand. Yet I rarely hear about classifying northern German dialects as north germanic.

• in the late 8th century (though the process began many hundreds of years before this with viking raids, etc) the danes conquered two-thirds of england (see danelaw) and brought over the old danish language. their cultural and linguistic impact on the area was immense, and many consider this to be the beginnings of the fairly strong north/south linguistic divide in england which still exists to this day. soon after the danish invasion, what we call 'old english' was in fact a mix of old danish and old english - that is, the very central elements of the language (the morphology and syntax) of english and danish (as brought over by the invaders) mixed together to form a hybrid language (or rather, a single, unbroken continuum of dialects, i.e. a diasystem).
• about the romance influence: this does *not* language convergence as norman (and later french) were not mutually intelligble with english. yes, a english absorbed a ton of words from french (much higher than the 40% you cited, i believe) but this is not language convergence - the morphology and syntax of the language, i.e. its central elements, remained untouched by norman/french. it is therefore incorrect to say it has "has lots and lots of Romance characteristics". it doesn't. it only has lots and lots of romance lexis.

Sure, it does! Don't assume that this kind of lexical change doesn't count. It completely changed the character of the English language by mixing it up with huge amounts of "foreign" terms. This is very different from the north (and other west) germanic languages where this didn't happen (or not really to a higher degree). - And regarding syntax: Don't you see that English lost a lot of its flexibility in word order, one could easily see this as a French influence, in fact, in many ways word order is like in French (though there are exceptions, of course). But I am not well informed enough about the history of the English language to give a 100% statement here.

i totally disagree - being english and having studied the romance languages in great detail - danish and english word order etc. share much more in common with each other than english and the romance languages. just in the syntax - prepositions left

You may be right, of course. Danish and English share a lot (more), but there is still the fact that word order (nowadays) in English is more restricted and actually not so different from French, in many aspects.

alone at the end of a sentence when their governed noun has been dislocated (e.g. 'det kan jeg ikke tælle med'), inversion of verb/subject with a left-dislocated adverbial (e.g. 'der afgår et tog klokken 7')... do correct my danish if it's poor hehe. yes,

Actually my Danish is poor, too, being raised elsewhere (most of the time). Also sorry for my poor English... - Dislocations(?) such as in your above examples are nothing limited to nordic languages and English, they are also normal in Dutch and German, even more so in the numerous dialects of these two languages. Thus they could be called a "germanic" marker, but not a "nordic" one. German example: "Da habe ich nichts von" instead of the formal "Davon habe ich nichts" etc. or "Wo kommst du her?" instead of "Woher kommst du?" (where do you come from?).

english has lost some of the flexibility in its word order, but that is only very recent, and so can't be put down to french influence - a lot of the typically danish inversions like 'det vil jeg gerne have' (rather than english-style 'jeg vil gerne have det') can actually still be heard in the speech of living english speakers, particularly older ones or those from less urbanised areas. kieron 20:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's interesting to know. But those inversions are not typical of nordic languages, they are the most natural thing in German and Dutch, too. So why talk about being nordic, if all you imply is "germanic"? (unless you include all that in "nordic). - By the way, word order in Spanish, for instance, is also much more liberal than in French, right?

history

• in the 10th century, english kings reconquered the danelaw and established a unified kingdom of england (with some difficulty; the kingdom split and reformed several times). later, in the 10th and 11th centuries, the crown of england passed to danish/norwegian kings a number of times; for example, england formed part of the empire of canute (knut) the great, during which time scandinavian influence on english culture became very strong. even at the time of the norman invasion of 1066, an english and a dano-norwegian king had a claim to the throne of england (as well, of course, as the norman king).
• it's maybe also worth noting that, although normandy spoke norman, a romance language influenced by germanic superstrate, it was a viking kingdom in origin and its kings were scandinavian. the name 'normandy' is a romanicisation of the old norse word for 'northmen.'

so, emm, it's hard to understate how closely linked english/british medieval history is with scandinavia. we must note that finland is only considered nordic because it was part of the swedish empire for a long while; estonia's claim to be nordic also rests in large part on its history as a fiefdom of the danish and swedish empires. so it's really just a question of timespan'. how long ago does a country have to have been ruled from scandinavia to be considered nordic? lol ^_^

kieron 17:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, you brough some interesting points. But you can't convince me (or most northern europeans) that the UK should be seen as part of the Nordic countries, I guess.

212.227.103.74 19:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

well, as i said, in no way would i call the uk 'nordic'. but i was attempting to demonstrate that, if you want to base "nordic" on a linguistic, historical or racial basis, then you have to start including countries that you would rather not ^_^ "nordic" is a modern political construct, which is why (for example) danes are reluctant to include (for example) the uk within the term.kieron 20:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, being in a hurry, I can only state that I will have to think about it...

Clearly, you are confusing Norse heritage with the concept of Norden/Pohjola, the equivalent of which the term 'Nordic Countries' is meant to be in this article. Nordic is not from Norse. Nordic is from nordique or simply northern. No-one argues against the fact that Norse culture with its roots in Scandinavia is one of the many influences on the British Isles and has contributed to "Englishness". However, the concept of Nordic Countries (Norden/Pohjola) is of a more local nature. No-one in Sweden, Iceland, Finland, Denmark or Norway would consider England or the British Isles as part of Norden/Pohjola. Also, note that Scandinavia (closer association with Germanic speakers) is a different concept. Come to think of it, Finnic speaking peoples and Germanic speaking peoples of Fennoscandia share a past which is older and more fundamental than the short Norse period of the British Isles. However, the modern concept of Nordic Countries plays on a more social and cultural level. It's just a designation for countries in Northern Europe that have similar social structures, GDPs, school systems, legislation and health care systems etc. etc. (resulting from centuries of close interaction) and thus harbour a feeling of overall similarity over other countries in the same region. Clarifer 15:22, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

It's a misinformed perspective you hold. Then again, do you believe that those countries you mention have a monopoly on the terminology? Besides, Britain's mountains are part of the Scandinavian chain and Ireland was never part of Rome. As it stands, the Northmen learnt of Iceland from the Celts. English are not Welsh, who WERE Roman. It would be a mistake to see the Welsh who provided the Tudor dynasty and the Church of England to Britain, as some Southern Europeans. These are Protestants just like the other countries you cite as central to the North, even some more fanatically so in the case of Scotland (it once was so dramatically Fundamentalist in England to behead the king over it). Celtic peoples have never considered Finno-Ugrics to be part of the North in the way that the Germanic lands are, in the same way that Finno-Ugrics don't see Celts. Why see it from a mere geographical way, when both land and blood fit in this case of Britain and Ireland? 68.110.9.62 19:01, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

In no way is the term 'Nordic countries' (as an equivalent of Norden/Pohjola) meant as an anthropological classification (of whatever kind) as your comment seems to suggest. And again, Scandinavia is understood as a different (geographic and cultural) term locally. As to religion: The Nordic countries are all specifically Evangelic-Lutheran because, due to political arrangements, all took part of the reformation set forward by Martin Luther. This is but one of the issues that makes these 5 countries in Northern Europe similar in nature. Not all Fenno-Ugric speakers inhabit the 'Nordic countries' (most do not!) nor do all Germanic speakers (most do not!). The term 'Nordic countries' IS primarily a classification of similarly structured states harbouring cultural similarities and, if you wish, hence also a geopolitical term. Clarifer 17:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

You're missing the point. Great Britain and Ireland are considered Nordic by LOCATION as well as heritage, in the minds of all its inhabitants and also the perceptions of Southern Europe...which puts them in the same batch as the Nordic Council, etc. When Julius Caesar invaded Britain, he was looking to annex a Nordic land. The Romans went by sea to the Baltic for amber. If you want to make it a case of environmental features, then only the coniferous forested lands are Nordic. This excludes Denmark and Iceland, much of Norway, some of Sweden and would limit it to areas which have had Finno-Ugrics predominate. This is just a Uralic vs Celtic bias dispute, Germanic as the middle axis. 68.110.9.62 02:09, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

See, when I take my English dictionary and look under Norden/Pohjola it says clearly 'Nordic countries'. This has nothing to do with some historical and apparently ethnolinguistic (?) interpretations of the term 'Nordic' which I'm very slowly becomming aware of. I fail to see how the term 'Nordic countries' relates to language groupings. Great Britain and Ireland can be said to be NORTHERN but the current usage of the term Nordic has more or less been reserved for Nor, Swe, Fin, Den and Ice. No, the term 'Nordic countries' has little to do with flora and fauna. Once again, it is just a name for a bunch of nation states which are so similar in their policies, bureucracy, welfare, labour structure, health care etc. etc. that their governments have already for decades (long before the EU!) granted their citizens freedom of movement across the national borders in terms of labour, residence, capital etc. etc. Clarifer 15:09, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Then you must be referring to what remains of the Kalmar Union? 68.110.9.62 16:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

No, read the first line of the section History of Scandinavia#European integration. --Palnatoke 08:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

That explains nothing. 68.110.9.62 14:46, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

It is not clear what you are referring to by "remains of the Kalmar union". (Maybe you could specify that?) It was dissolved when Sweden left, and Norway and Denmark made a new union. One could of course speculate on how Scandinavia or Norden would have been like if the Kalmar union never happened, but none of the Scandinavian/Nordic relations today are based on the Kalmar union.Inge 15:26, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[I disagree]. All constituent parties of the Nordic Council were once part of the Kalmar Union and this region has taken on the description of "Nordic countries" today. I do not believe the focus should be limited, but should centre on the North Sea and outwards. The UK has a cross flag, like the other Nordic countries do and these are the only ones besides Greece. Nordic is much more than post-Kalmar. 68.110.9.62 18:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I see. Engaging in a discussion with you was obviusly a mistake. I apologize for wasting your time.Inge 20:27, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

How is it alright for you to engage in this condescending attitude of "who fits in and who doesn't"? How is it that you believe your own self and those just like you are part of this world? That smacks of the very arrogance related to not knowing what you're talking about. It's offencive to be treated the way you and those like you have done to me and those like me. Wisen up please. 68.110.9.62 03:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

All this aside, is there not a more compelling case for mentioning, at least, Shetland (Norn, Með lögum skal land byggja, the Shetland bus et al.) and perhaps also Orkney? In a similar context to the passage on Estonia, at least ... TheVenerableBede 11:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

No objections, so done. TheVenerableBede 08:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

While principally not opposing any self-designation (and bearing in mind that these groupings are rather arbitrary) there are a few questions one could ask before designating a geographic area "Nordic" (as an equivalent to Pohjola/Pohjoismaat or de nordiska länderna/Norden. 1. Is the (or one of the) official languages in that geographic area a Nordic language (i.e. a North Germanic or a Baltic-Finnic language)? 2. Is the geographic area represented in the Nordic Council or the Nordic Council of Ministers? 3. Has it been part of the Nordic Passport Union? 4. Is the (or one of the) state church(es) (or has it been) the Evangelic-Lutheran Church for 500 years? 5. Does the area have a long tradition of a generous welfare system mixing a freemarket economy and a heavy taxation with the principle of trying to equalise incomes? 6. Is its politics traditionally heavily influenced by a social democrat party? 7. Are there minorities in that area that a) speak the language of another Nordic country or b) have traditionally lived a mobile life form across open borders between some Nordic countries? 8. Is the surrounding nature a dominant theme in the life style of that area (shown e.g. in the sparce population in comparison with the land area)? Etc. etc. (I hope this isn't overly simplified and wrong. Who can come up with more common traits?). No-one in Swe, Nor, Fin, Ice and Den would designate Orkney or Shetland to be part of Pohjola/Norden but they might say that sure, they have been influenced by a Norse heritage. However, this is not the basis of "Nordic". Clarifer 15:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the simple problem here is that there is no simple English-language translation - and thus no page - for Pohjola/Pohjoismaat or de nordiska länderna/Norden? I'd be happy to accept that my Northern Isles additions would belong better on another page - but which page? If the different concepts cannot be distinguished adequately in English, then we might have a problem ... TheVenerableBede 16:47, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

We should either remove both Shetland\Orkney and Estonia or keep them both, preferrably in a spescial section on close associates or something similar. From my viewpoint in Western Norway it is quite strange to hear Estonia referred to as part of Norden and not so strange to include Shetland at least. The reason being of course that people in my part of the Nordic countries have lots of cultural and economic interaction with the people of Shetland and particularily their maritime industries and none with Estonia. I of course understand from this debate that some people feel Estonia belongs in Norden. Many of the same arguments can be used for both. History, culture, language, current social and economic interraction...So if we keep Estonia we should in my veiw certainly keep Shetland. Inge 20:44, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

If you understand Finnish and Swedish (perhaps Finnish only is enough), you will most likely be able to read Estonian newspapers and understand pretty much everything they say. Estonians are also ethnically related to Finns/other nordic people, and have a similar culture. That's why I think they should be mentioned in the article. I won't comment on whether the Scots should be mentioned, as I don't really know anything about Scottish language, culture, ethnicity, and their similarities/relations with nordic peoples (However I doubt that the languages are very similar, after looking at Wikipedia's language articles - Swedish languages are North Germanic whereas Scots is West Germanic). --HJV 22:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmm...I'm not sure what the problem here is. Just type in "Nordic countries" in google and see what you get. Sure, Estonia and Orkney/Shetland may have close contacts with some Nordic countries but the life style, the structure of their societies, the bureucracy, internal politics etc. etc. just aren't very similar with the Nordic countries... I'd say we title a paragraph on this in the lines of "areas with traditional connections with the Nordic countries" or so...? Clarifer 15:34, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Clarifers suggestion.Inge 15:46, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Agree, and well implemented. TheVenerableBede 08:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

As for the title "Finno-Ugric and other North Germanic peoples" I find it to be slightly confusing and I´d like to point out that FU languages certainly are not other North Germanic languages as they are not North Germanic or Germanic at all. And it´s not like I have anything against FU languages but I am convinced the concept of Norden-Nordic derives not from "Finno-Ugricness". Finland, for instance although almost by consensus labeled as Nordic is Nordic not because of FU language but because of very close connections to (North Germanic) Sweden. However, "Nordic" is not a "meta-ethnicity" of Finns but it is rather their country´s status. Thus FI is an exeption from rule. The same goes for the Saami people. Krakeni9 —Preceding undated comment added 15:40, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Nordic countries = Nordic region ?

To my understanding the term 'Nordic countries' is the most coined in English language equivalent of the local terms 'Pohjola' and 'Norden'. I'm not sure if emphasizing yet another term, such as the term 'Nordic region', makes things less complicated... To my understanding the 'Nordic countries' are the STATES of Denmark, Norway, Finland, Sweden and Iceland, while geographically one can speak of a "Nordic region" and include the dependent areas of Greenland, Aland, Faroe etc. etc. Clarifer 15:29, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This is an observation more than opinion... but in the map depiction of said "Nordic countries" is shown Greenland, which is not listed as one of the Nordic countries. As far as I know, Greenland is its own country now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eltremendoche! (talk • contribs) 06:11, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Nordic countries as "Scandinavia"

"The Nordic countries, sometimes also the Nordic region or Scandinavia..."

I have added the word "(incorrectly)" in front of Scandinavia in the above sentence because, while it is true that the Nordic countries are sometimes referred to as "Scandinavia", that usage is incorrect. Scandinavia is generally accepted to be a part of Continental Europe only. I don't support deleting the reference to Scandinavia in this sentence because it helps readers to see a term that they might well use, and also to see that it is inaccurate as a term for the whole Nordic region. Tamino 10:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

somebody has removed your addition. I did put it back, as you are 100% right, NCs to S is like GB is to England.

In North American English, that usage isn't incorrect though, and say "incorrect" may be unnecessarily exclusive? -- JHunterJ 11:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

"Compact Oxford English Dictionary" (retrieved 2006-12-13) use the adjective Nordic for "Scandinavia, Finland, and Iceland" and the noun Nordic for "native of Scandinavia, Finland, or Iceland". The North American mixed use of the terms might be similar to many other languages' colloquial use of England for GB or America for the U.S. So at least in British English there is a difference. Norrefeldt 12:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

We are not required to be 'bug for bug compatible' with Microsoft. Beginning the article with "In English, Scandinavia is sometimes used as a rough synonym for the Nordic countries." in the lead implies that we at Wikipedia believe that Scandinavia is sometimes the same. We don't want to do that. Perhaps we should say, somewhere, that sometimes people who don't know better use the phrase as a vague catchall for that bit up the top of Europe where vikings used to come from. On the other hand, some people think that dolphins are fish, but we don't discuss that in fish and we certainly don't start the article on fish with "sometimes used to include dolphins". Regards, Ben Aveling 00:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

It implies nothing of that sort. The article states up front that the word in its title is sometimes (often, actually) used in with a different meaning from the one the article describes. This is a relevant piece of information for an encyclopedia to give early. It would be a grave disservice to our readers to pretend that the meaning that we describe is the only possible one, when in fact the reader may have come here in an attempt to understand a text that uses it with the other meaning. We're here to produce a reference work, not to make life hard for readers who Stray From The Truth. And frankly, the notion that a word has a single True and Unchanging meaning, fails utterly to work for any natural language. If there is a widely-used usage of "fish" with a meaning that includes dolphins, and that usage can be properly sourced to Wikipedia's standard, then that information certainly belong early in the fish article (which in facts starts out with a lengthy discussion of what the word encompasses). –Henning Makholm 23:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

It implies exactly that, once you take out the padding. "In English, Scandinavia is sometimes used as a rough synonym for ..." means exactly the same thing as "Scandinavia can be used as a synonym for ...". We have two choices. Either we say "Nordic means X" or we say "Nordic sometimes means X and sometimes means Y". We can't say that "Nordic means X. And sometimes it means Y." The current version said that Nordic does sometimes mean Scandinavia, so I've made it explicit that it doesn't always mean what I would consider Nordic to mean. Regards, Ben Aveling 12:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I reverted your edit, which changed the meaning into a complete falsehood. "Nordic countries" always unambiguously means all of Iceland+Denmark+Norway+Sweden+Finland. It is "Scandinavia" whose meaning varies; sometimes "Scandinavia" us used to refer to all of the Nordic countries, but at other times "Scandinavia" means only a subset, usually Denmark+Norway+Sweden or Norway+Sweden. –Henning Makholm 23:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, good call. My edit was not an improvement. I still don't like it though. Remind me again why we are talking about what Scandinavia is in the article on Nordic? What we have there doesn't help the reader understand what the Nordic region is. Regards, Ben Aveling 09:27, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The sentence presents an alternative words for the article's subject, with discreet caveats that it is not unambiguous. It is a heads-up to the reader who has been sent here (by a piped link, say) to learn about "Scandinavia", lest he will be confused if the article he gets does not at all mention the word he clicked on. –Henning Makholm 10:11, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Henning, I'm sorry to ask this, but are you a native English speaker? Because the sentence does not say what I think you think it says. Regards, Ben Aveling 21:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

(Outdent) My native language is Danish. However, the sentence is not difficult to understand, and I have trouble grasping why you should think it means something other than what it does. Can we agree that all of the following sentences have the same meaning?

1. In English, Scandinavia is sometimes used as a rough synonym for the Nordic countries.
2. In English, the word "Scandinavia" is sometimes used as a rough synonym for "the Nordic countries".
3. In English, people sometimes use the word "Scandinavia" as a rough synonym for "the Nordic countries".
4. In English, people sometimes use the word "Scandinavia" as a synonym for, roughly, "the Nordic countries".
5. In English, people sometimes use "Scandinavia" as a word that means the same as, roughly, "the Nordic countries".
6. In English, people sometimes say "Scandinavia" when they mean "the Nordic countries".
7. In English, people sometimes say "Scandinavia" when they want to refer to the Nordic countries.

I hold that all of these sentences denote (roughly!) the same idea, that neither of them suggests any variability in the meaning of "the Nordic countries", and that all of them explicitly claim that "Scandinavia" may mean different thing to different people. –Henning Makholm 02:13, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that all of those sentences, to differing degrees, say "Scandinavian is synonymous with Nordic". The problem word is 'sometimes'. If I read you right, by 'sometimes' you mean "some people use Scandinavia to mean 'the Nordic Countries', and some people don't". (They use it to mean something else, something quite distinct which cannot be considered to be the same thing.) If so, then at least we are trying to say the same thing. But a more intuitive way to read these sentences is "all people use the word Scandinavia to mean 'the Nordic Countries', some of the time". (And sometimes they use other words, such as Nordic Countries.) We should perhaps acknowledge such minority viewpoints, but the way we are currently doing that, we have written the majority viewpoint out of existence. As someone else said earlier, England and Britain are sometimes used as synonyms for each other, but that don't make it so for the rest of us. Regards, Ben Aveling 03:08, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Please don't describe specific language usage as "incorrect", it is nonsense as usage defines language. In any case, it is not our task here to pass judgment on what is correct and not. (And yes, as a true Scandinavian I also get annoyed when Americans describe Finland as Scandinavian, or exclude Denmark because it is not on the Scandinavian peninsula, but Wikipedia is not the right vehicle to make others use the terminology I grew up with, especially when they speak another language). --Per Abrahamsen (talk) 10:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, as a Scandinavian I also get annoyed when people rule out Finland from being a Scandinavian country. This is also a Scandinavian country. Unfortunately the education systems in Norway, Denmark and most surprisingly in Sweden are woeful in their teaching of history and this fact, combined with national stereotypes on the Finnish-speaking Finns, seems to create an image that not only Finland is not a Scandinavian country - but that it would be undesirable for it to be one because that would mean that this land of drunk, knife-fighters would be associated with "us". The nationalistic and stereotypical treatment that Finland so often gets in the media in the other Scandinavian countries is, frankly, somewhat shocking. As is the ignorance of Scandinavian history, which clearly includes Finland. 144.82.201.211 (talk) 09:43, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

It is true that many include non-Scandinavian countries like Finland and Island in the term Scandinavia, but the fact that someone does this, does not mean that it is correct. If it is wrong in one language, it is wrong in all. The comparision with the use of the word England is a good example. The fact that many Non-British people say "England" when they mean the United Kingdom doesn`t make it any more correct. However, Scandinavia has cultural connections to the two other cuntries, that is why they are put together as Nordic countries. The usage of "Scandinavia" to include these two countries are therefore clearly wrong. --Oddeivind (talk) 14:48, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Wikipedia MUST differentiate between logical (OK) different interpretations of a word, and plainly WRONG different interpretations that uninformed people use. The concept that "Scandinavia" names is a different concept than what the term "Nordic Countries" names. That's a plain fact and has nothing to do with "language usage".

References

Nordic North?

Is this really used in English? Clarifer 15:36, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

If the question was: "Are 'Nordic' or 'North' used in English?", then (in my experience) the answer is:

• • Nordic as adjective: quite commonly (e.g. Nordic light)
  • Nordic(s)/Nordic region as a noun: rarely; I have occaisionally seen "the Nordics", but it is rarer than "the Baltic States", for example.
  • The North in the sense of the Nordic region: I have never heard or seen it used in that way; in British English "the North" means the North of England or everything north of the Fosse Way (i.e northern England and all of Scotland).

I am by no means an authority on English usage but I think that I am reasonably close. Tamino 17:39, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

No. I meant 'Nordic North'. See the current opening of the article. I've NEVER heard of a 'Nordic North' so what is it? What is a non-Nordic North then? Clarifer 15:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I haven't heard of "the Nordic North" either. What a strange term. Perhaps someone was thinking that with the world being divided into North and South (rather than the Cold War East-West divide) the Nordic countries/region needed to be renamed to avoid confusion with the global North. But it sounds really odd. I'll remove it. Tamino 16:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Nordic Countries

Template:Nordic Countries has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Night Gyr 23:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Angry Norwegian

I removed the following inline commentary from the article. It provides a rather unconventional viewpoint on the difference between "Nordic countries" and "Scandinavia". - Henning Makholm 13:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The text over is wrong!

The difference between Scandinavia and nordic contries comes from the viking age. The vikings where barbarians from denmark, Sweden and Norway. Iceland is included in the nordic contries because the viking was the first people to settle there. Howewer the vikings where not the one to discover or settle Greenland or Finland, thats why thoose areas is not included in the nordic contries.

Scandinavia concist of Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Greenland, Finland and all the island that belongs to them. The nordic countries (or Norden in Norwegian) concist only of Iceland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway! Not Greenland and Finland or any island exept Svalbard!

(An Angry Norwegian wrote this)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.167.172.250 (talk) 2006-07-09 08:15:21

Two questions

What do the "¹" in the peoples row signify? And shouldn't Greenland also be included in the table of political history? —Nightstallion (?) 14:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

the "1" used to refer to a footnote explaining that the Icelanders and Faroese originally came from Norwegian and Celtic background, at some point this seems to have been removed. I don't really understand why it was needed in the first place. I can also see no reason for excluding Greenland from this table, it is included in the Icelandic version at is:Saga Norðurlanda (History of the Nordic countries). --Bjarki 23:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

The 1 foot note in the table originates from the table in Scandinavia and could be removed perhaps. Greenlanders are not included in the table because this article is (or at least used to be) primarily about the Nordic countries (=the states of Den, Fin, Ice, Nor, Swe) and not the Nordic region (the states + their dependencies such as Greenland, Aland etc. a more geographical term and a less geopolitical one) Adding the Greenlanders would mean that the table should feature Alanders too? Also, please note that this article is not about a "Saga realm" but a real life construction of modern times. Clarifer 08:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

oh and how about the Sami? Clarifer 08:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Aland should be added as well. Then we would have a table that depicts the historical background of the 8 political entities in the Nordic region that were more or less independent at the turn of th 21st century. The Sami don't have such an entity for themselves so I'm not sure how that should work. In the Icelandic version I linked to before, they are listed in the bottom row as one of the nations that make up Norway, Sweden and Finland. --Bjarki 12:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Strictly speaking this article would then not deal with the 'Nordic countries' anymore but the 'Nordic reagion' so the article's title should be changed? Either that, or we stick to the topic 'Nordic countries' here... (There's a difference between the coined in term 'Nordic countries' and a less defined term Nordic region I think.)Clarifer 13:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The Sami do enjoy some local autonomy in the three Nordic states in terms of culture, language and mild governing bodies (the Sami parliaments). Clarifer 14:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Still nowhere close the autonomy enjoyed by the Faroes, Greenland or Åland. I'm also unused to the concept of a 'Nordic region' as something distinct from the Nordic countries, in fact I have never encountered such a distinction outside Wikipedia. --Bjarki 14:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

In any case, "Nordic region" redirects here so what's the issue exactly? --Bjarki 14:21, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Here on the www-pages of the Nordic council [1] you can somewhat perceive the difference between the terms 'Nordic countries' enlisted in the left (=the states) and the map featuring the whole Nordic region (=states+dependencies). 'Nordic countries' is indeed a coined in term in the English language that can usually be found separately in a dictionary. The term Nordic region is not as defined. There's no issue. Just trying to set the scope of this article. I think we should decide whether we PRIMARILY want to write about the Nordic countries (Den, Fin, Ice, Nor, Swe) or the Nordic region and all the peoples associated (Den, Fin, Ice, Nor, Swe, Gre, Far, Aland, Svalbart? Sami peoples). I don't think Greenland is particularly a part of the Nordic countries as these are both Geographically and culturally a subset of Europe whereas Greenland is part of North America in both ways - through Denmark, of course, Greenland becomes part of the Nordic region though. Clarifer 06:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, I'm not opposed to extending the scope of the article and adding Greenlanders and Alanders in the table. I do think that in this case we should add the Sami as well, if not for autonomy but then for being an indigenous people? Clarifer 06:36, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm strongly in favour of adding Åland and Greenland, and pretty much disinterested regarding the Sami. They don't have a formal region allotted to them, but they are certainly their own people... —Nightstallion (?) 11:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

*bump* Noone interested any longer? —Nightstallion (?) 11:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Coat of Arms

In the section Flags and Symbols there is made a claim to the Commom coat of arms of the nordic countries, The source referenced is 'European Voice' (a subsidiary of The Economist), 16th March 2006, however it is a login newssite. Does anybody have another source for this bumblebee coat of arms and can some opload af picture of it, perhaps even create an artilce for it? --Angelbo 19:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

This story sounds very odd in my ears. The Nordic Council compared the Nordic welfare system with a bumblebee in a recent publication [2] (page 19: Den nordiske velfærdsmodel som en humlebi), and although I agree that the "European Voice" did indeed print a story this day ("Hear the buzz as the Nordics bumble ahead", index page: [3]), I still think this comparison was supposed to have been understood figuratively, not literally. It would also make little sense to chose a second symbol, considering how many years it has taken to get the symbol of the Swan (somewhat) known. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 20:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm just going to be brave and delete the paragraph. It's obviously just an overextended and/or misinterpreted metaphor. At the very least, it's certain the Nordic countries aren't about to change their national coats of arms anytime soon. If any such thing had been seriously proposed there'd have been a lot more 'buzz' about it. :) --BluePlatypus 19:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Population statistics. Should either be sourced or removed completely.

This paragraph seems like a very bad idea to me, and it is next to useless in its current form. Either we have to find an entire list from ONE very good source (and add a very good reference to this source) or the entire paragraph should be removed. Seing numbers being added without sources and arguments on the pages about Stockholm and Copenhagen about which city is larger is merely a waste of time. If this paragraph simply jumbles together numbers counted in different ways, then what's it good for? It'll simply be comparing apples with pears.Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 20:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think those two lists are particularly enligthening. However, a simple list of major cities with approximate sizes would potentially be useful. Even with the understanding that the edges of metropolitan areas are always fuzzy and that the administrative areas for which statistics exist usually have a somewhat incidental relation to those fuzzy edges, this would help readers get a rough idea of how large those cities are. Say, people from the other end of the world might reasonably expect an encyclopedia to give them an idea about whether a "major" city in a Nordic context is more like Sydney or Canberra. If only such lists did not have a tendency to turn into my-city-is-bigger-than-your-city battlegrounds... Henning Makholm 01:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll buy that suggestion. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 08:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, then which cities should be on the new list? Since metropolitan area is a bit "fuzzy" - and I agree about that - how about using urban area as a refrence point? Urban area is probably the best way to mesure a city's size since the municipality can be a small part of an urban area and metropolitan areas are mesured in diffrent ways in all countries. If we go by urban area we have 5 cities with a urban area of approximately 500.000 inhabitants or more. The stats for Göteborg is - 199 km² urban area with 495,849 inhabitants and a density of 2,491/km². --Krm500 13:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you work with a strict distinction between "urban area" and "metropolitan area"? I confess to using them interchangably in the sense of "more-or-less contiguous built-up area" with the larger such ones more likely to be called "metropolitan", but am willing to be educated. Henning Makholm 15:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Metropolitan area sounds like something with denser population, more like London or Paris, than the areas we are discussing here. Otherwise I agree with the suggestion by Henning Makholm. Right now it doesn't look good. Norrefeldt 11:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

A city with a population of 50 000 inhabitants has a metropolitan area. A metropolitan area doesn't have to be a large city like London, New York or Paris. A metropolitan area is the area of which a urban area (city) have an affect on. For example if X number of people travel on a daily basis to a city to work they live in that city's metropolitan area. An urban area is the are with a high density settlement, for example, Gothenburg's administrative (City of Göteborg/Göteborgs stad ie: the municipality) size is 487,000 inhabitants on an area of 400km². But the urban area is 500,000 ingabitants on an area of 200km² which stretched through 3 diffrent municipalities, Göteborg, Mölndal and Partille. --Krm500 13:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Should I gather from your example that the "metropolitan" area neither includes the entire "urban" area, nor the other way around? (As one is the larger and the other the more populous). In that case I must confess continued confusion. Anyhow, my main point is not to elevate municipal boundaries to a level of importance they cannot sustain. Just as we would not list London anywhere as having the area or population of the City of London, we should not pretend that, e.g., Copenhagen or Stockholm consist only of the so-named municipalities. Henning Makholm 09:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of that the metropolitan area had such wide distinction, Krm500. In that case the metropolitan areas are Western Skåne or the whole region around the lake Mälaren (around 100km radius from Stockholm/Malmö). I don't think we should bother listing the metropolitan areas at all in an article about the Nordic countries. It's rather far away from the topic. Norrefeldt 15:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merger from Largest cities of the Nordic countries

I proposed that one for deletion, but JIP did not agree. I, for one, think both that article and the section over here should be deleted. What do you say? Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 01:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Both should go. Nobody seems to be editing this page except people arguing over whose town is bigger. As long as we don't have any universal set of defintions, this list will be unsalvageable. I suggest we remove the entire "population" paragraph one week from today, unless somebody finds a new list from somewhere reputable. A list from an encyclopedia would be nice. Valentinian ^{T / C} 10:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Now that's talk page consensus. I'll go ahead. Jobjörn (Talk ° contribs) 12:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd say it's pretty easy to define the population of a metropolitan area as the population of the municipality ("kommune"). It includes suburbs to a certain degree, but it's a convenient way to compare city sizes.

That being said, I don't see much purpose in such a list either. --dllu 16:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it ought to be easy. The problem is that almost the entire greater Copenhagen area skipped the Danish administrative reforms of 1970 and 2007, so there is a massive confusion about which suburbs to include or not. We still have a similar bad list on Scandinavia. I've proposed that we remove it one week from today unless we can find a list from a reputable source before then. Valentinian ^{T / C} 11:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. --dllu 13:55, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Chronology

First of all, I don't see the point of that chronology table. Secondly, what's up with the "Denmark/Sweden/Finland (EU)" boxes?! The EU is not a federation with member states as autonomous provinces (yet). --dllu 16:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The chronology table provides an excellent historical overview.

If I am not mistaken, a personal union like the Denmark-Norway and the Sweden-Norway ones is also not a federation with member states as autonomous provinces. At least not legally.

For example, Canada and UK are still in a personal union in the sense that the same person is monarch of both, but neither is a province of the other.

In other words, if we are showing personal unions as distinct, we should show EU membership as distinct as well.

Lpetrazickis (talk) 20:52, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't the Sami people also be included in the chronology table under "Nordic peoples". In a historical viewpoint the Samis have been seen as separete from the Norwegian, the Swedes and the Finns. 85.166.15.209 (talk) 18:56, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

"Nordic cross" link

I reverted this edit, but my browser somehow submitted the edit while I was still typing the edit summary. Here is what I had intended to write:

I don't see the point of "X (see X1)" instead of just linking X when X redirects to X1 already. Linking directly from X is The Hypertext Way; it makes the reading smoother and has no disadvantages that I can see. This is the kind of thing that redirects and/or piped links are for.

–Henning Makholm 23:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly one way or another. My thinking was that it was nice to be explicit that the Nordic Cross Flag page was being linked to, since (at least to me) it's not obvious from the "Nordic cross" redirect. But if you prefer the way it reads as-is, I'm happy just keeping it--this is a trival point and not worth arguing over. -- Krinsky 06:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Problematic edits concerning U.S. definition and "usage"

It is incorrect to imply that the U.S. definition of "Nordic Countries" differ from the definition used elsewhere ("is rarely used in the USA to mean the countries listed above" [4]), or that American-English speakers are unaware of and/or not using the names "Nordic Council" and "Nordic Countries", the official translation used by the Nordic Council for the entity to which the member countries belong. Please note that modern publications in the U.S. do in fact use the term "Nordic Countries" for the member states represented by the Nordic Council, and the term is always used in same way as the rest of the world use it — U.S. publications do not appear more inclined than other English-language publications to use "Nordic countries" as a synonym of "countries of the Germanic peoples of northern Europe", or to exclude people from Finland as implied in this edit [5]. The official government usage in the U.S. of the term "Nordic Countries", and what appears to be the most common definition in modern publications, is not the racially centered definition in Merriam-Webster (where the definition includes "of Germanic peoples" and "of a physical type of the Caucasian race characterized by tall stature, long head, light skin and hair, and blue eyes" [6]), but a definition identical with that used by the UN, OECD and the Nordic Council — see for example publications like "Nordic Countries Report on Misconduct Activity in the 90's" by The Office of Research Integrity, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Volume 7, No. 4, September 1999: "The Nordic countries that have established such committees are Denmark, Finland, Norway, and Sweden. Iceland, the fifth Nordic country, does not have a committee." Most U.S.-based (or U.S.- associated) modern publications also use the term "Nordic Countries" when the official entity is discussed, and with the same meaning, as demonstrated in the following random examples: Nordic Countries Come Out Near the Top in Two Business Surveys in The New York Times, 14 October 2004; Washington Post in various articles (see also how the adjective "Nordic" is used); Comparing Depository Institution Difficulties in Canada, the United States, and the Nordic Countries" in Journal of Housing Research, 5:2 1994; "The five Nordic countries remain defiantly different from the rest of Europe-and from each other" in The Economist (US), 23 January 1999; "Nordic countries top competitiveness ranking" in the International Herald Tribune, 29 September 2005; Nordic Countries Top The World Economic Forum's Gender Gap Index in the World Economic Forum, 8 November 2007. Using a dictionary's etymological definition of the adjective "Nordic" (a definition stemming from a system of race classifications by Joseph Deniker) as proof of the lack of modern usage in the U.S. of the name "Nordic Countries" is insufficient evidence and constitutes original research unless sources directly discussing the issue are consulted and cited. To say that the term "Nordic Countries" is "rarely used in the USA to mean the countries listed above" is obviously incorrect. And to say that "Scandinavia" or "Northern Europe" are the terms normally used is also problematic: there is no indication that the Nordic Council is called the "Scandinavian Council" or the "Northern Europe Council" in the U.S. The edit that states categorically that Finland is not considered Nordic in the U.S. as per the M-W definition is even more problematic. Please note that the Merriam-Webster definition of the noun Nordic includes people of Finland; the first choice for a definition of the noun in M-W is simply "a native of northern Europe", which obviously includes natives of Finland. The racially-inspired definition of the adjective "Nordic" and the changes in definitions through time are better explored and developed in the article Nordic as it would require a rather lengthy diversion from the topic at hand, which is the term "Nordic Countries", not the adjective "Nordic". 71.106.234.83 (talk) 23:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

WP editing is supposed to be based on other published sources. I provided evidence that "Nordic" is so rarely used in the USA to mean the countries called "Nordic countries" in this article that some US dictionaries do not record this meaning at all.[7]. You seem to not understand how a modern dictionary like Merriam-Webster is compiled. It does not define the meaning of a word; it records how a word is in fact used, not how it should be used. The usages recorded are nevertheless quite conservative because although the general usage is usually recorded first, even this is not "real" general usage (in the "real" i.e. spoken language) but based mostly on printed, reputable sources and is therefore usage mostly by educated speakers. If there is also a common specialised, technical usage or a common colloquial or slang usage that differ from the general, "normal" educated usage, these are also recorded. When a respected, modern dictionary like Merriam-Webster does not even mention a usage, there is good reason to believe this is not a mistake or an omission but a carefully made decision. It is not correct that you removed this edit of mine and the information provided and the reputable source and the quote from it.

Your first claim is original research, especially since it contradicts the results of the scientific work that went into compiling the Merriam-Webster entry. That entry is based on actual usage in (mostly) published texts, and you're essentially claiming that you're more competent to observe and describe use of the word "Nordic" in US English than Merriam-Webster. Your second claim is a misunderstanding of the dictionary entry and of my edit quoting it. No one said that US publications use "Nordic countries" to exclude people from Finland. The word "Nordic" is used so seldom to mean the Scandinavian countries that this meaning is not recorded in Merriam-Webster; it is completely illogical to claim that anyone would use the expression "Nordic countries" to exclude Finland if it's not commonly used.

Usage in official US government texts is not a good indication of general US usage. Government sources normally follow awkward and even misleading English usage by foreign governments in naming things related to their countries, but they will usually also explain to normal US readers what is meant by the unknown expression or non-US usage.

Your quotes from US publications show that "Nordic countries" is is fact used in US English too and that Merriam Webster may soon include that meaning. Your quotes however prove nothing about how common this usage is in US English or that it is anywhere as common as "Scandinavian" or "northern European". Your claims about frequency are simply OR and are not able to override and annul the information provided by a major US dictionary. Your talk about a dictionary's etymological definition of the adjective "Nordic" shows that you do not know how a modern dictionary is compiled. The meaning of or relating to the Germanic peoples of northern Europe and especially of Scandinavia is listed first because it is the most common current meaning based on Merriam-Webster's extensive collection of quotes from a large selection of printed sources, it is not "only" the "etymological" (original or historical) meaning.

You're collecting data to support your claim; that's OR. I'm providing information from sources that have already compiled data; that's not OR. It is never OK to remove well-sourced information from reputable sources; replacing them with OR is even worse.--Espoo (talk) 15:35, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[Reformated first comment back to the original as per Wikipedia:Etiquette#How to avoid abuse of talk pages: "Interweaving rebuttals into the middle of another person's comments, however, is generally a bad idea. It disrupts the flow of the discussion and breaks the attribution of comments [...] it's virtually impossible for the rest of the community to follow."]

The argument about the usage in the US fails on several, very basic levels, the first being that the lack of an entry in Merriam-Webster certainly does not provide "evidence that 'Nordic' is so rarely used in the USA to mean the countries called 'Nordic countries' in this article that some US dictionaries do not record this meaning at all" as claimed. A lack of an entry in a dictionary only provides evidence that that particular dictionary does not list the name. Merriam-Webster does not have an entry for Union of African States, African Union or Nordic Council either. Obviously that does not mean that for instance the name African Union is not in use in the US or that "Nordic Council" means something else when used by American-English speakers. Merriam-Webster, a subsidiary of Encyclopædia Britannica, is but one of many authoritative sources, which also includes other dictionaries and encyclopedias, and it is not the sole authority on "how a word is used in the United States" as implied. Merriam-Webster lists an adjective "Nordic" from the late 1800s which is a synonym for "Germanic people, Caucasian race characterized by tall stature, long head, light skin and hair, and blue eyes". Please note that the modern use of "Nordic" when combined with "countries" does not refer to race in modern US sources (please let me know if you are able to locate one) and the term Nordic countries is not used differently in the US than it is elsewhere in the world; it means countries of the Nordic Council, here as elsewhere. The Nordic Council] was formed 1953 (Finland joined in 1956) and the name Nordic countries was thus not officially adopted for the entire region when the noun Nordic was first taken into use in 1901. To me, it is not very interesting to discuss which dictionary uses the best research methods to find the ultimate descriptive use, or if M-W's are better, similar or different from for instance Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary's and Encarta Webster's Dictionary's methods. I would only like to draw your attention to the fact that countless examples exist, some listed above, that demonstrate the term Nordic countries used by the press, in peer-reviewed journals, in scholarly books, in books for the general public, by the US government and by host of encyclopedias and dictionaries. The term gets 2,127 hits on Google books, and as you can see, many of these books are published in the US. It's not necessary to speculate about M-W's research methods when there are so many other authoritative sources using the name in the same way other English-speaking nations use the term. It is the claim that the term is seldom in use in the US for the countries of the Nordic Council that is surprising and needs to be sourced. Please also note that the examples listed above on this page serve only to rebut your claim that "Nordic countries" is seldom used and used differently in the US, and is not a comment on M-W's research. It is only meant to highlight why that without an authoritative source stating that the term is seldom used or used differently, your use of a dictionary to prove this theory fails to meet WP:V. Also, please note that providing examples of usage as a rebuttal on a discussion page does not constitute WP:OR - original research applies to interpretations inserted into articles. The examples given here are offered as a courtesy to you in order to demonstrate why the conclusion you have drawn is problematic and to explain to you why your addition to the article is slated to be either flagged or removed. Unless a reliable source is introduced that actually argues that "Nordic countries" is seldom used in the US and that the term is instead used in a different way in the US, your edit will have to be flagged Template:Synthesis (= This section may contain an unpublished synthesis of published material that conveys ideas not attributable to the original sources.) Please see the policy page for WP:SYNT. 71.107.27.204 (talk) 12:24, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I have heard many poorly educated Americans refer to South America when they were talking about a Central American country. I have heard many poorly educated Italians refer to Sweden, Denmark, and Germany as "Germania." I wouldn't want to claim that Central America is part of South America or that Sweden is part of Germany. You've got to use the definition used by people who typically use the term. Bostoner (talk) 03:50, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Democracy ranking

It might be of interest to mention the democracy ranking of countries (where the five nordic countries all are among the top six) as I see is done in the article on Sweden. —Bromskloss (talk) 10:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Portal icon placement

FYI, you can add a link to Portal:Norway in this article, by placing {{Portal|Norway}} at the top of the see also section (or the external links section if the article has no see also section). This will display

Cirt (talk) 09:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Carelia

I think Carelia must be added to the part "Areas with close relations to the Nordic countries", because of its historic ties to Finland and Sweden. Aaker (talk) 20:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Part of Karelia is Nordic (thus not related), and well, rest of Karelia has historic ties, but Stalin's ethnic cleansing destroyed those ties, so its up to what "close relations" means.

Wikinist (talk) 13:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Stalin did not destroy all of Carelian culture. There are ties also today. But I think none of the cooperation or identity ties has to do with the Nordic countries as a unit, only directly with Finland (and historically with Sweden). --LPfi (talk) 11:58, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Remove 2nd map

According to me, The second map on top of the article does not add any value to the first one. Correct me if I am wrong. Otherwise I will simply remove it. Tomeasy (talk) 18:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Here I go. I am removing the second map now. Tomeasy (talk) 07:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to remove the reference to Ireland

The article states that large parts of Ireland belonged to Norway. I believe this statement to be incorrect and propose it be deleted. Vikings did indeed establish many settlements throughout Ireland mainly along the coastline and on rivers, however their powerbase was relatively small. In addition the Vikings in Ireland fiercely resisted subjugation from Viking kings.

Additional info: http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/pre_norman_history/vikings.html http://www.ucc.ie/chronicon/ocorr2.htm http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Viking http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Early_Medieval_Ireland_800%E2%80%931166

OLoonasi (talk) 15:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

A small remark on Estonia

"Even though Estonia is widely considered to be a Baltic state or part of Eastern Europe, many Estonians themselves consider Estonia to be Nordic rather than Eastern European."

I'd say Estonia is widely considered to be in Northern Europe and often in Eastern Europe too, but propably more in Northern Europe. I think we can say Estonia is in Northern Europe, this doesn't change its status in this article, since Northern Europe and Nordic countries aren't the same. I propose:

"Estonia is widely considered to be a Baltic state and part of Northern Europe. Although Estonia is often grouped in Eastern Europe aswell, many Estonians themselves consider Estonia to be Nordic rather than Eastern European."

If you agree, change it, or provide some counterarguments. If not, I'll do it myself eventually.--H2ppyme (talk) 13:27, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that being situated in "Northern Europe" is not the same as being a "Nordic country". I guess the sometimes used term "Nordic and Baltic countries" could be explained somewhere in the article. Tomas e (talk) 19:30, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Elk

The photos labeled as "Elk" under the national animal heading for both Sweden and Norway are not elk at all, but Moose. Someone who knows what they're doing should change this. Tylerweston (talk) 08:26, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

What is known as the 'moose' in North America is called the 'elk' or 'European elk' in Europe. They are both the same species (Alces alces). Please see moose. Best regards, Hayden120 (talk) 11:57, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Nordic languages and identity

I changed the "linguistically heterogeneous" in the lead to linguistic heritage part of the Nordic identity. Both are true, and the issue is surrounded by some hot feelings here in Finland, so I think I'd better explain it here.

The common language is indeed important in Nordic cooperation, and those involved in associations for Nordic cooperation usually learn to understand many dialects of the Scandinavian languages and to adopt their own language so that it is more easily understood (thus talking "Scandinaviska") and although English is accepted and interpretation sometimes arranged, mostly people use some of those mutually understandable languages.

In formal contexts English, translation and interpretation is used more, partly because the people involved are not necessarily those interested in the common culture, partly to not discriminate against the Finnish (and the Icelandic).

As Finland joined EU the instrumental importance of the Nordic cooperation has diminished. That does not mean that the importance of the cooperation has diminished amongst those really feeling that the Nordic identity is important.

Those Finnish not very interested in Nordic cooperation do not necessarily understand the importance of the language (see e.g. Mandatory Swedish). When they meet people from other Nordic countries they can very well communicate, like with e.g. Germans – which also means there is not so much special with being in Nordic company. They do not stumble into gatherings where they would feel the special Nordic atmosphere. And (warning, this might be prejudice) thus they often think that the Nordic cooperation is an unnecessary step towards "Europe". Extrapolating that line of thinking there would not be much interest in maintaining the structures that keep the Nordic countries together, mentally and formally, and thus it cannot be the viewpoint in describing the Nordic countries as an existing unit.

--LPfi (talk) 09:02, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I try to explain the removed sentence

the continental North Germanic languages – Danish, Norwegian and Swedish – share a degree of mutual intelligibility with each other and one of those languages is (with some exceptions) learnt in school by those not speaking any of them natively

This is not referring only to Swedish in Finland, but also to Danish in Iceland, Greenland and the Faroe Islands. Because of this second language more or less all Nordic people are able to communicate with each other using some continental North Germanic language. There is otherwise very limited intelligibility across the insular/continental division.

Do you still think the sentence is unclear or vague? I think the fact is important as it is the basis of using Nordic languages in Nordic cooperation.

The exceptions parenthesis is about e.g. Sami people and immigrants in Finland, for whom Swedish is non-compulsory if they study their mother tongue and Finnish. I suppose there are similar exceptions in the other countries.

--LPfi (talk) 20:34, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I still think it is rather vague. For an editor like me or you with an understanding of this topic, it is okay, but for the average reader, it makes absolutely no sense: "one of those languages"... which one? Which country? What type of school? Primary, secondary, tertiary, or other? It is completely open to interpretation. I think mentioning language education in the lead is excessive. Simply stating that the three languages are mutually intelligible is adequate. After all, the lead of this article is supposed to summarise the Nordic countries, not language education. Hayden120 (talk) 02:39, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I presume I am blind to my own writing. Perhaps somebody else can make it clearer or else I should return after sleeping some nights.

Last I checked (a few years ago) the "intelligible" Nordic languages were compulsory in the compulsory school (i.e. primary or secondary), studied as second language (before English) in Iceland and probably in Greenland and usually as third language in Finland.

I also think the section in the lead should be shorter, but found no good way to shorten it down. I think the "common" language(s) is one of the central features of the Nordic countries. And as the three mutually intelligible languages are just three out of eight or more, mentioning mutual intelligibility among those three is not enough.

To my astonishment there is no section about languages in the article, which makes a short reference in the lead nearly impossible. I do not however feel confident in writing such a section myself (with the time at my hands right now).

--LPfi (talk) 09:17, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. While common languages and mutual intelligibility are relevant to the Nordic countries, I'm not sure that this needs to be covered in great detail, at least in the lead. For Scandinavia, definitely, and that article has a section on language and education. Perhaps, if you want, you could draw information from there and adapt it for this article. However, I'm not sure if it belongs in the lead. Discussing the languages in the lead is essential, but I don't think we need to go into a large amount of detail and include education. Hayden120 (talk) 09:40, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Update: How about this? Hayden120 (talk) 07:27, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Scandinavian or Swedish is not lingua franca in Finland. English is. (Considering also communication between Finnish and Swedish speaking people). In some extent Swedish can be considered as a such but primarily really not. Maybe there should be corrective notion as like "with some extent in Finland".--188.238.101.193 (talk) 07:04, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

What about England

Don't forget us we have awesome Nordic influences like a ability to have ultimate maritime supremacy through history, and also in DNA and language.86.144.64.251 (talk) 02:15, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can see, there are no reliable sources that includes England as a Nordic country. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:09, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

No, but there was a lot of influence, which is partly described in the section England. The takeover by William the Conqueror is said to have changed focus away from the Nordic coutries, without mentioning William and his men being Norman. I think the influences could be better described. --LPfi (talk) 14:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

The section is completely unsourced, and as the article states, the term "Nordic" only appeared in 1898, almost a millenum after the Danelaw. So I would think it somewhat of a stretch to include anything about it at all in this article, especially since it only very briefly summarises a random collection of Englands encounters with various Nordic countries, nothing about the term "Nordic country" itself.

I guess it highlights a recurrent problem in Wikipedia, that many articles on abstract terms spends a lot of space describing superflous and quite frankly irrelevant side issues (often resorting to synthesis in the process), while neglecting the actual article subject itself. In this case the history and usage of the term "Nordic countries" only gets a couple of small paragrahs, while most of the article is used to describe the national symbols and history of each individual country, something which we already have considerable information on in the articles about the respective countries as well as in the articles covering the different historical periods. --Saddhiyama (talk) 14:45, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree about the general problem of Wikipedia. And the section is not well written.

On the other hand, I think Nordic influences on other countries is a relevant thing to describe in this article (at least shortly, with links to appropriate sections elsewhere). The influences where not so much of individual countries, but of people from the Nordic region, the subject of this article. The term "Nordic country" may be new, but it is closely connected to common roots from the Viking times. I think restricting the article to modern times would be totally wrong.

--LPfi (talk) 15:05, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

After having gone over the article again, I guess you are right. It just seems the article is in dire need of more sources that specifically mentions "Nordic" or "Nordic countries" as influences instead of referring to individual Nordic countries, something which could be taken for synthesis. --Saddhiyama (talk) 15:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

It's only really the North of England which has a more nordic spin to the culture (including things like how words are pronounced). This is reflected in the proposed flag of the North of England if the cultural divide grew significant enough for a devolved north. http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/File:Flag_of_Northern_England.svg Malluma (talk) 20:30, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

National Symbols

The national animal picture for Norway is of a moose, and the caption states that elk--not moose-- is the national animal. Which is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jll294 (talk • contribs) 05:28, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Please scroll up this page. Cheers, Hayden120 (talk) 08:59, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Chronology table

Shouldn't the Sami people also be included in the chronology table under "Nordic peoples". In a historical viewpoint the Samis have been seen as separete from the Norwegian, the Swedes and the Finns, and has not always been under direct or geographical scandinavian/nordic rule. 85.113.162.38 (talk) 15:08, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure: they were never a political entity, and that is the heading of the table. They are also difficult to include as they live in three modern countries and were gradually integrated in them. Maybe they should be mentioned in a note to the table. --LPfi (talk) 15:53, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not refering to including them as a seperate political entity, but just including them in the column of "Nordic peoples". It's also important to note that they live in four modern countries, the last being Russia. 85.113.162.38 (talk) 15:00, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Russia should be also counted in the nordic suggestions

if you already include england, scotland, germany and estonia. Russian language is slavic but Finnish people actually speak an uralic language like huangary and estonia and scottish is a celtic one, also the name russia means land of the rus. The rus were viking warriors who founded russia and in russian history the years of the early 1000s russia wasnt baptized like the scandinavians and attacked cities too like in Constantinople. And its obviously that geographically the whole east northern part of europe is part of Scandinavia.--Alibaba445 (talk) 16:07, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think anyone has suggested this. Some parts of the Russian Empire were intermittently ruled by the Swedish, but as a whole, Russia is a whole different Eastern culture. --vuo (talk) 11:48, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree though. Russia has since the 16th century had a huge impact on the Nordic countries. Finland is perhaps the best (but not only) example of this. Swedish king Charles XII got himself into a real mess in Russia during the early 18th century.

While he was away (for adecade or so) the Swedish empire around the Baltic Sea began to fell apart 83.249.173.211 (talk) 04:57, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Redir vs. disambig

Why does the redir point here? "Norden" is not a term used in English, and there are many, many listings on the disambig page. Unless anyone objects, I'd like to move the redir. Maury Markowitz (talk) 18:43, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Swedish Pomeronia

I've attempted to add Poland to the list of Nations that has perticular connections with the Nordic countries. Here is also a historical connection. Concerning both the Johan II - Katarina Jagellonica marriage and their son Sigismund, that ruled both Poland and Sweden, but fell (in Sweden) due to religiuos matters. And that a part of today's Poland has been Swedish before, Swedish Pomerania. In this connection, the mention of the capital city of Swedish Pomerania must be Stettin, since that was it's Swedish name of that time. It's OK to add the Polish spelling and blue link, but please do not take offence towards the Swedish name from 1648 and the Peace of Westphalia. 83.249.173.211 (talk) 04:29, 16 March 2013 (UTC)Sorry not logged on Boeing720 (talk) 04:29, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

King Sigismund in Swedish history

In Swedish history the king Sigismund never is refered to as "Sigismund I", the same applies also to some other Kings in Swedish history that was the first of a certain name. Example "Gustav Wasa" (never "Gustav I Wasa" or "Gustav Wasa I" despite there has been six Kings with the name Gustav) it also applies to King "Adolf Fredrik" and the soverign Queens "Kristina" and "Ulrika Eleonora". However this is no general rule, Kings "Oscar I" (of 2) and Fredrik I (alone) are formal. Do I need to prove this further ? Boeing720 (talk) 04:53, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Population growth

It is impossible that Scandinavia's population would have grown only over 100 000 people from 2000 to 2012. If you look Finland or any other country alone, the population growth has been larger. So someone should check the number. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.251.117.103 (talk) 09:37, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Right. Norway has also grown substantially in this period. It may depend a bit on whether you count the number at the beginning or the end of the year, but for 2012 I get the following very rough estimates:

• Norway 5 000 000
• Denmark 5 600 000
• Sweden 9 500 000
• Finland 5 500 000
• Iceland 300 000
• Together this gives 25 900 000. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 10:48, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Common features of the populations

Can we have a section about the features that distinguish the people of the region? Such as say their vast consumption of antidepressants? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/27/scandinavian-miracle-brutal-truth-denmark-norway-sweden

• http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/9789264183896-en/03/11/g3-11-03.html?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/9789264183896-38-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/23056088&accessItemIds=/content/book/9789264183896-en&mimeType=text/html%29?

Hcobb (talk) 14:42, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Map with country names

See the discussion section above: "Remove the 2nd map". The author removed one of two similar maps (the first map, The second map). The problem is that the other one was also removed in a later edit. Now, there are no maps with the country names on it. It is solely missed. I don't know how/where to add a map. This map seems ideal because it shows both the area concerned (coloured) and the country names. AugustinMa (talk) 11:20, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Sweden "non combatting" during Finland/Russia Winter War

I added a sentence on the fact that Sweden was not formally neutral during the Winter War in 1939-40. Sweden actually gave Finland moral support and even weapons. I'm not sure what the correct term for this is in English. "Icke krigförande" is what Swedish sources use, if I recall it correctly. Fomalhaut76 (talk) 16:29, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Geography

Should the geography mention something about lakes? There are quite many of them in Finland, Sweden and Norway, at least. Are they a notable natural feature? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.192.19.110 (talk) 16:49, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Country comparison

Thanks for the nice table comparing the countries point by point! Very informative. I would however omit some info that is not "comparative", notably things like "first leader" and "current leader". Population, GDP, military force, area etc are numbers that easily compare across countries, whereas name of the prime minister does not have such a quality. In addition, the name of the prime minister may change quickly, unlike more stable properties such as area and population. "First leader" is also a vague concept. For instance modern Norway was established in 1814 (not 1905) but accepted the Swedish king as head of state until 1905. --Erik den yngre (talk) 14:50, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Related deletion discussion

Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Countries with close relations to the Nordic countries Staszek Lem (talk) 16:26, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Scientists of the Nordic

From a science historical perspective the nordic region as a whole has delivered a significant part of our scientific knowledge. It would be fitting to have a cultural section on nordic scientists and scientific breakthroughs.

Scope of the Nordic countries

Currently the article fails to mention a single time the fact that there are relatively widespread proposals to include several other countries or territories to the Nordic countries, or that they already culturally are part of that. It seems even rather biased if all mentions of Estonia or Shetland are excluded from the article. H2ppyme (talk) 15:35, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Estonians really seem to want to be included among the Nordics, but we don't dictate that. As long as they are not in the Nordic council etc they aren't Nordic. Including them in this article isn't going to chamge that. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 01:27, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Timeline

Is the timeline supposed to be of the people and lands currently comprising the Nordic countries, or of the people's and lands that at some point were under control of what are currently the Nordic countries? If the latter, the entire table needs to be overhauled, as it will not work as it is currently constructed.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:31, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I would say the former but there have been disputes about that. Stefán Örvar Sigmundsson (talk) 22:57, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Which is why I posted this question. I didn't want to get into an edit war with an editor who keeps adding Estonia and the Estonian people as a Nordic entity. Right now the table works very well as a timeline of the history of the four Nordic countries - Denmark, Finland, Norway, and Sweden. I don't think this timeline would work if all countries that have had Nordic settlement or colonization were included. Imagine if the current table included the timelines of Belarus, Bulgaria, Canada, Estonia, France, Germany, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, and the United Kingdom. If that were done, a list format would work much better.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 23:45, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

About the Estonia as a Nordic identity issue - you could at least change back some mentions about often-heard arguments of Estonia being a Nordic country as well. Also the same for Shetland, Scotland etc. Right now it seems like there has never been any argument over the scope of the Nordic countries, which seems mildly biased IMO. H2ppyme (talk) 12:17, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't think I know enough to properly research and add the arguments over what constitutes the Nordic countries. If you or someone else can do that, be my guest (as long as it's accurate, balanced, and comprehensive). And that's something outside the timeline issue anyways.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:33, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Nordic countries is a relatively modern term and doesn't include Estonia. It is much more difficult to talk about historically, because it is not a historic term. And Estonia would probably have been included if it wasn't Russian at the time when the Nordic countries were defined, just like Scandinavia would have included Finland it if also wasn't Russian when the Scandinavian countries were defined. Carewolf (talk) 07:48, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Misleading lead

"The Nordic countries have much in common in their way of life, history, their use of Scandinavian languages and social structure."

But this is wrong though. "Way of life" okay, sure. "History" linking to "History of Scandinavia" is just plain misleading though. "their use of Scandinavian languages", also misleading. "social structure" okay.

All in all it's vague. Seems to promote unity which is fine by me, but it makes no sense to promote Scandinavian unity on a page about Nordic Countries. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 01:37, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

It's not the purpose of Wikipedia to promote anything.

And this article doesn't. It describes a real phenomena.

/Johan M. Olofsson (talk) 21:02, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Knock-Knock, Estonia again

In addition to the previous discussion about Estonia. The topic of Estonia being Nordic is only gathering importance in Estonia. Most young Estonians who have been born after the soviet union, define themselves as Nordic ("põhjamaalane"). They should not be denied their identity, just because they were occupied by the Soviets for 50 years. It seems very strange to force the Baltic identity on Estonia, if many or most young people do not feel a connection to that definition. Probably because estonians are Finnic and not Balts, while latvians and lithuanians are Balts.

I will not go into a long historical discussion about why Estonia is Nordic, but in general, Estonia shares almost all the historical points with other nordic countries. Starting from the Vikings, Thor, Rune alphabet, the climate, Sauna, Jul, etc.

The only remaining question has been the flag. Mind you, Estonia almost got the cross flag in 1919, but the current flag was a student organization flag and students fought in the freedom war under it, so the tricolour attained a meaning from the war. This gave an emotional meaning to the tricolour and so it came to be.

That being said, the cross flag is in use in Estonia.

On the island of Vormsi: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Estonia-nordic-cross-flag-02.jpg

The former prime minister wearing it in parliament: http://f2.pmo.ee/f/2008/12/18/107565t81h8b52.jpg

An athlete winning a competition, flying a cross flag: http://p.ocdn.ee/17/i/2015/12/13/jchsaod3.tid.jpg

Santa claus in parliament with the cross flag: http://f.pmo.ee/f/2008/12/18/107373t81hda9d.jpg

I guess the only issue is that because it's not official, people are using different versions of it.

A very high-profile conference on the same subject: http://www.norden.ee/en/about-us/news/item/8543-estonia-and-the-nordic-countries-estonia-as-a-nordic-country-conference-summary-and-videos

---

I understand that Estonia is not currently a full member of the Nordic Council (it is a member though). But still, the case of Estonia should be included on the main site as a subtheme. It is a topic that is very much active and in a developing status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JaanMatti (talk • contribs) 05:15, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

---

I will add one more comment: the GDP PPP per capita of Estonia is now at 30,000, while that of Finland is 42,000. This is 72% of the living standard of Finland. And more in the capital Tallinn. So the argument of low living standards is not correct anymore. Estonia is very close to a traditional scandinavian living standard.

Also the LGBT rights have come a long way in Estonia in the last 25 years.

Article is very overloaded with stuff about estonia wants being nordic.The article is about Nordic countries,ee is not nordic country! Estonia is Baltic country without any doubts, you can not change the geography and established facts. Estonia is not Norden. The considerations given in JonSonberg article are, sorry, in my opinion, back seated and What is the Nordic battle group? This is a thing of backseat and small importance and anyway, LT and LV are members of it too. All the three- Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia are observers in Nordic Council.

Estonia has almost identical history with Latvia. How they can be very drastically different I wonder?

Being danish, you should know that estonia has for nearly 1000 years been divided between estonia (northern part) and livonia (southern part together with northern latvia). Northern estonia has been danish for 200+ years, and way longer as a part of sweden. The history is almost identical with finland, not latvia. See the timeline graph in Nordic Estonia. JonSonberg (talk) 22:16, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

1. An essay competition on the topic "Is Estonia Nordic?" was held in 2016, with 36 submitted essays by public activists and school students.[93] The essays of school students were predominantly acknowledging of Estonia's definition as a Nordic country.#

Estonia is Nordic since 36 people wrote it was nordic? If you arrange special essay competition on the topic of Estonia being Nordic when it is anticipated that most write so. On a more serious note, there are more than 36 people in Scandinavia who think it isn´t.

The LGBT rights have come a long way in all ex-communist EU countries in the last 25 years, not only in Estonia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skilsmissebørn (talk • contribs) 20:22, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

On the LGBT topic - Estonia is the only country where cohabitation has been legalized. So no, you are not correct here.

In general: Your comments completely miss the point. You are deleting a section that is not even claiming estonia to be nordic. It is not relevant if you or me or thinks if estonia is nordic. The Estonian government itself defines Estonia as a nordic country. And also the estonian people. This is enough grounds to have this mentioned on the "nordic countries" article in wikipedia. You are currently deleting a section that covers the real-life facts of what is happening. JonSonberg (talk) 22:06, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

::Your government declares your country is now Nordic? Have you left the Council of Baltic countries? Interestingly, there was no any news about it. it's getting ridiculous.Estonia is not Nordic country!::Skilsmissebørn

It is not "my government". I'm sorry if you are only now finding this out. It's been a topic in estonia for the last five years. Also, please read other sources before your start deleting sections because of your own ignorance. Source one Source two Source four Source five

Estonian integration

The section is not in line with wikipedia´s policy with having Neutral point of view

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view

-It states opinions as facts. -states seriously contested assertions as facts.

I have presented my arguments already in other section just in short once more. It is clearly visible how some Estonian editors want to draw in with their "Ee-s are Nordics" agenda. There many cases there even their own statements turned out to be wrong: -ee government has not declared Ee for being Nordic country, quite the contrary Ee goes on in framework of Baltic -the cross Ee flag is not widely used in Estonia -Ee is not same as Finland, Estonians are not same as Finns. Languages are not mutually intelligible, this is almost consensusly pointed out in different sources. -historical and cultural ties with Scandinavia are weaker than Ee editors show -"Finland was a Baltic state in past too". No, it was not. Finland was unseparable part of Swedish kingdom. Finland has special ties with Scandinavia, Estonia has not. As well I´d like to have my pov and it is that it looks some articles in wiki on Ee issues are in my opinion recently "nordified up" , that is I mean they show there their contacts with Scandinavia deeper, longer, more intense than in reality they have been. It will help if you compare an academic Ee history with history presented by Ee editors in wikipedia. The same goes for aspects of culture. Ee culture developed under Baltic German influences, the same goes for Latvia. Facts are cherry picked, specially looked up. Some of them are trivial, for instance the loan word in Ee language for christmas what comes from North Germanic languages.There are many loaned words in Estonian language, many of them came from "unwilling" Baltic languages.

It is wrong and confusing that there is map Nordic countries including Estonia in the article including Estonia. Ee is not even Nordic country, why should be map with it? Especially when you use wikipedia by smartphone the wrong map appears firstly, before even the map with real Nordic countries, has anybody noticed it at all? It should to be fixed and replaced with a map with real nordic countries on it. I strongly recommend editors to examine following Wikipedia guidelines: Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view

Krakeni9 16:11, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

The section includes referenced facts, not opinions. Which reference or sentence do you have a problem with? You have written 6000+ words on the talk page and not mentioned a single reference that you think is incorrect. Maybe start with that? The previous president, the current president, the previous prime minister, the current government and coalition, the foreign ministry from 1999 - all define estonia as a nordic country. And this has all been referenced every step of the way. Them saying that is a referenced fact not an editor's opinion. You have an opinion that estonia is not nordic? Great! But opinions dont matter on wikipedia. Wikipedia covers referenced facts. You have been trying to add text about latvian history on the article to show historic connections with sweden for making the case that latvia is nordic. And then got angry at estonia when i deleted your off-topic text. Because the latvian government has not been saying that latvia is nordic. Or if they do, then you have added 0 content about that. Or maybe you don't like the fact that the estonian government has been doing those actions but the latvian government has not? I'm very sorry for that. Wikipedia:No original research is one of the reasons your text about latvia got removed SørenKierkegaard (talk) 19:39, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

It is wrong and confusing that there is map Nordic countries including Estonia in the article including Estonia. Ee is not even Nordic country, why should be map with it? Especially when you use wikipedia by smartphone the wrong map appears firstly, before even the map with real Nordic countries, has anybody noticed it at all? It should to be fixed and replaced with a map with real nordic countries on it. Ee government has never announced that "ee is Nordic now and not any more Baltic".Jonsonberg-Kierkergaard has not been able to provide article with such statement although he works 24/7 with the issue. Zero references ´ about Ee officially saying it. Sonberg lives in fantasies of his own.

If you want to include ee-s contacts with Nordics in the article, you have to include all other contries what have contacts with Nordics as well in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Krakeni9 (talk • contribs) 16:20, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

That isn't a map of the Nordic countries, it's a map of what the Nordic countries would be if Estonia joins. There is a lot of talk at official government levels of Estonia becoming recognized as a Nordic country. There isn't that for Latvia, so it doesn't make sense to create a hypothetical map including it.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:22, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Ideas of Estonia being Nordic can be mentioned in this article, but not how it's currently done. Right now the section "Estonian integration" is basically original research. Quote from Wikipedia rules: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Sources don't talk about "Estonian integration" (what "integration" should even mean in this case?). Foreign investment stats or anything like that can be connected with "integration" only if some reliable source claims it is connected, not when Wiki editor guesses it is. Minnekon (talk) 22:29, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

So this section should be titled "Estonia as Nordic state" or something like that and contain secondary academic sources discussing Estonia as Nordic. If specific examples are added they should be notable (eg by top statesman), not reference to some essay competition. Currently I see only one academic source (Mart Kuldkepp) and even this talks about situation 100 years ago. So this section has some potential, but current form of it should be delated. Minnekon (talk) 22:29, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

It's also worth mentioning that similar discussions have already taken place in Talk:Nordic Estonia, Talk:Estonia and Talk:Baltic states because of same user's (User:JonSonberg alias User:SørenKierkegaard) disruptive edits. Minnekon (talk) 22:29, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

For re-working the section, these sources should be useful:

• [8]

Looks amateurish to me. Who is even the author of that story? Key claim is "...officials and inhabitants prefer their country to be described as “Nordic”", but only one official is referenced (and source is forum post) and judgment of inhabitants preference seems to be based on Facebook post. Minnekon (talk) 12:15, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

• [9]

Not about Estonia as Nordic state but cooperation between Estonia and Nordic states. Minnekon (talk) 12:15, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

• [10]

Here is link with videos and materials from that conference. There are some good sources (only some of them in English though), including poll about feeling Nordic (or Northern) identity among Estonians. Minnekon (talk) 12:15, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

• [11]
• [12]

I doubt that opinion of one British MP is relevant enough. Minnekon (talk) 12:15, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

• [13]
• [14]
• [15]
• [16]

Who is the author of this paper and what are its sources? Minnekon (talk) 12:15, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

There probably are others, but those should do for a start.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 02:51, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

One more academic source about development of Nordic theme in Estonian politics: [17] Minnekon (talk) 12:21, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Here's one more academic source, on page 220 SørenKierkegaard (talk) 09:18, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Ee, government of it has not announced officcialy that it is Nordic. So not even any official claims have made. Sonberg´s refers here to the sources that are equal to personal opinions, blogs, posts in forums and or in facebook. His sources are so weak taking into account how obsessed he himself seems to be. There are samples in history then such "reclassifications" have been officially made, eg countries have changed their names. African the Republic of Upper Volta declared in 1984 and informed the world that it´s official name would be Burkina Faso and not Upper Volta any more. But EE officials go on as representatives a Baltic country. In 5+3 Nordic-Baltic meetings Ee officials still label themselves as Baltic country + in billion more cases. I personally do not have nothing against Ee being nordic but Wikipedia should not contain facts that are simply not true.

The map is extra confusing. Why not to add a map of the article about EU with Turkey as member, "would be if Turkey joins".

You mean like the map in Accession of Turkey to the European Union? SørenKierkegaard (talk) 09:10, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Krakeni9 —Preceding undated comment added 07:18, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

You keep claiming that my sources are weak and that the government is not saying it's nordic but we're directly referencing the president(s!), the prime ministers and the foreign ministry since 1999. These are not weak sources, these are referencing the government directly. Any person living in estonia will know the government's position on this. And your claim about estonia labeling itself as a baltic country is not correct, estonia will never label itself as a baltic country when it has a chance to choose the label and has not been forced into one. SørenKierkegaard (talk) 09:19, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Minister's personal opinion in some topic is not automatically government's opinion. As I already explained it to you in another article: to write that Estonian government claims being Nordic we need source which says so, not Wikipedians interpreting and twisting someone's words. Minnekon (talk) 19:28, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I keep claiming as long as you manage to stop telling non-truth. I have talked with Estonians and Ilves´ opinion was viewed as his personal opinion nobody really thinks that is "government´s position". If Ee government really had wanted to do it, it would have done it. As for Kaljulaid inteview- the message is just the opposite way- all countries concerned according to her belong into "Nordic benelux", including Latvia. So your attempts to delete my edits are extra confusing, contradictory and annoying in the light that Kaljulaid said!

As for map- no. I mean this https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/European_Union -you can not see any Turkey there. The reason is banal- Turkey is not EU country. The same goes for map you made and added to this article -it does not fit here. Estonia was Baltic already before Lithuania. The so called "Baltic" languages were not yet called "Baltic" when Estonia was labelled as one of Baltic provinces/lands! Ee can be mentioned in article but only if all other countries/territories with Nordic links are included as well.Krakeni9 —Preceding undated comment added 11:08, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

To User:SørenKierkegaard: I repeat the problems with your additions to article again, because you have ignored them so far. If you (or anybody else) have counter-arguments that are in compliance with Wikipedia policies, then present them. If not, I will remove inappropriate material from article.

Ideas of Estonia being Nordic can be mentioned in this article, but not how it's currently done. Right now the section "Estonian integration" is basically original research. Quote from Wikipedia rules: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Sources don't talk about "Estonian integration" (what "integration" should even mean in this case?). Foreign investment stats or anything like that can be connected with "integration" only if some reliable source claims it is connected, not when Wiki editor guesses it is. Minnekon (talk) 19:44, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

I removed all lines that could be considered as Original Research. Hope this fits. When it comes to proposing a better title, I'm all ears. SørenKierkegaard (talk) 21:26, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for cooperation. About title, maybe "Case of Estonia" or "Estonia as Nordic state(?)". Or maybe someone comes up with better version. Anyway, important is to avoid ambiguous and original terms like "integration". Minnekon (talk) 23:49, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't think all original research is removed. First segment says: Estonia and Estonians often define themselves as Nordic instead of or in addition to Baltic. Yet non of the references say that Estonia considers itself Nordic. They only point to opinions of just 3 Estonians (hardly translates into often), out of which 1 (Kaljulaid) don't use term Nordic, but Nordic Benelux. In addition to that, in next segments same 3 personal (Kaljulaid, Rõivas, Ilves) opinions are repeated, which makes this first segment unneeded anyway.

Second segment: The current President of Estonia defines the Nordic and Baltic region as the "Nordic Benelux". Guessing that by "Nordic Benelux" she actually meant "Nordic" is original research. The prime minister of Estonia has defined the country as nordic. Can stay in, but needs re-wording. He didn't define Estonia as Nordic but set becoming Nordic as a goal. Minnekon (talk) 23:49, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Third segment: Estonia has defined itself as a Nordic country in the World Expo. No. Anonymous author of that text called it so. Minnekon (talk) 23:49, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Fourth segment: A push towards being defined as a Nordic country has existed in independent Estonia since the Estonian War of Independence in 1918. First source is Tiia Kõnnussaar, who (as far as i can find) is not historian or some other sort of authority on that topic. She also don't say such things, but only "some top-politicians have discussed belongig to Nordic". Second source is relevant, but says it bit differently, that "idea of Estonia’s Nordic identity has persisted", and not since Independence war but WW 1. Minnekon (talk) 23:49, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Other segments: basically ok, I recall some of those examples have been mentioned in academic papers too, which gives them extra weight. Minnekon (talk) 23:49, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

The article covers not the fact that estonia is nordic, but the fact that the estonian gov. officials say it is nordic. Latvian gov. is not saying this, so this topic is not comparable. Whether you or me thinks estonia is nordic is irrelevant. You can voice your disagreement towards the estonian government & people, not wiki editors. Also, why do mainly LV & LT editors have an issue with this? SørenKierkegaard (talk) 11:36, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

By the way, what was your issue when deleted 6 times my edits?? Nobody else deleted but just you.

I have an issue because of Ee government has not told Ee is nordic. Ee current president interview is a random blabla, she does not say really there anything. It has been said when it has been said not when Wiki editor guesses it has been said. ee government has never said: "we are not Baltic country any more, we are nordic". Do not lie. Krakeni9

Prime Minister Taavi Rõivas, 2015: "We are a Nordic country in terms of culture, in terms of mentality." Foreign Affairs Minister Toomas Hendrik Ilves, 1999: "There is no Baltic identity with a common culture, language group, religious tradition... ...Estonia was and as I will try to point out is, if anything, a member of Yuleland." Yes, the Estonian government has said that it considers Estonia a Nordic country rather than a Baltic one.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:34, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Taavi Rõivas or Toomas Henrik Ilves is not dictator of Estonia - their personal opinion isn't automatically government's opinion. Government's positions are expressed through official government's statements. Also I'm not sure Rõivas has that opinion, I can't access that site. Minnekon (talk) 00:00, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Good clarification - neither of these statements was made on behalf of the Estonian government as a whole.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 03:52, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, Ee government has no made any announcement of EE being nordic and not any more baltic! Sonberg may claim 100 times that the issue is different but he has no proof. Since then wiki articles are relaying on someones personal opinions?

"This year, Estonia is holding the presidency of the Baltic Council" says website of Ee government. https://valitsus.ee/en/search/site/baltic%2520council?page=1 So, Ee what is (according to Sonnberg) a Nordic country is holding the presidency of the Baltic Council???? For some reason??! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Krakeni9 (talk • contribs) 10:36, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

IF you want to include Ee, you HAVE to include other territories what have Nordic connections as well. Ee is certainly not that contrastive. Talking about history Vikings in their rides did not really even go to Ee. Latvia, Schleswig-Holstein, Shetland, Orkney- you have to mention at least them tells my common sense. Krakeni9

Estonian vs Latvian integration

In the wake of the Estonian government, businesses and people openly integrating itself with the nordic system and defining the country as a nordic country - some random references here: Reference 1, Reference 2, Reference 3, some baltic wikipedia editors are trying to add a paragraph about "latvian integration" as well. In reality this does not fit because the latvian government is quite happy with latvia being defined as a baltic country. Latvian people also do not define themselves as nordic people. Estonians do. Even the latvian airline is called airbaltic. Estonians are finnic people, latvians are baltic people. So this is the reason I don't think estonia and latvia are comparable and why "latvian integration" has no place on this page. It's better suited to the latvia-sweden relations page. JonSonberg (talk) 14:44, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

1. Latvian integration#

Estonian government has not officially declared that Estonia is nordic. Thus Estonian statements that Estonia has done it are not correct. Estonia is Baltic country and so Estonian government sees it. It would be nice if they stop operating with non-true facts. The rest what is written in Estonian section is a collection of facts what show how Estonia is integrating to Nordic countries.

You are choosing to ignore all the references being given to you every step of the time. The previous president, the current president, the previous prime minister, the current government and coalition, the foreign ministry from 1999 - all define estonia as a nordic country. And if that's not enough, is the official website of estonia good enough for you? JonSonberg (talk) 18:27, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

I really do not get why it is not allowed to show how is Latvia integrating to Nordic countries.

As for Finland- pay attention that Finland is not Estonia, Estonia is not Finland. In many aspects Estonia is clearly closer to Latvia than it is to Finland. Estonia is less northern and less Scandinavian than Finland, this is very obvious.

As for Latvia- Latvia is not same as Lithuania. These are different countries. Lithuania is less northern, less Nordic than that of Latvia. It is very wrong to label Latvia and Lithuania as sort of identical twin states.

As for Baltic languages. The Latvian and Lithuanian languages were started to label as "Baltic" in the middle of 19 century and that name became widespread as late as post WW I period. Estonia inturn was one of the Baltic provinces, Lithuania for insance was not. Thus in fact Estonia is more Baltic than Lithuania.

As for Finnic languages. Finland is labeled as Nordic because it shares circa 1000 years common history with Sweden. Finnic Finnish language does not make sense here. The same goes for Greenland for instance. Are there many who think Greenland is Nordic due to Innuit languge? Why are other Innuit speakers in Canada not Nordic then? No, this is not the reason. The reason is that it has been Danish and Norwegian dependency. Krakeni9 (talk —Preceding undated comment added 11:12, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

You're just deciding not to open reference URLs ? The prime minister of estonia and the president of estonia, the people of estonia and the businesses of estonia have defined the country as a nordic country for years and those have been referenced everywhere. When it comes to historic dependencies, estonia shares most of it's history (before the CCCP occupation) with finland not latvia. And anyway this does not even matter for this page. What matters is that the estonian government, people and businesses define the country and themselves as nordic and so it deserves a mention on this page. This is about encyclopaedic accuracy, not wishful thinking or point-of-view propaganda. Latvia does not define itself as nordic (even the latvian airline is called AirBaltic? The estonian airline is Nordica - funny example, i know) , so why are you adding it here? Yes you have historical and business connections with sweden. Write about this on latvia-sweden relations page. For other purposes, you can always start a blog. Again, this does not actually matter but to exemplify my point, the alternative flag of Estonia is the cross flag. In latvia this is not the case. Also the state budget revenues paint a picture, with the estonian per capita state budget being 4/5 of finland's. And a third point, your profile has no other contributions to wikipedia, so you have clearly just registered an account to add this section on this page. This is not what wikipedia is about. If you want to spread a specific point of view, you can start a blog JonSonberg (talk) 13:18, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

JSonberg, Quite the contrary- I did decide to open your references. And none of Estonian officials tells that.

And anywhay- if you are saying "Estonia is officially calls itself nordic"- where is a government announcement on that? Provided by date. There is no such statement and you are trying to concoct and to give false impression to wider public that Estonia´s government has told that.

You are refering to party agenda- this is not any official statement, this is party´s pre-electoral agenda.

Overall, your story consist mostly of Estonian -Swedish contacts. You are not officially Nordic. So, may I ask, why are you adding it here? You can always start a blog. Krakeni9

Why are you copy-pasting my feedback to you and re-pasting it back to me? It's like debating with a 5-year old. No, the estonian integration subtopic is not about estonian-swedish contacts. And again, this is not relevant because you are supposed to argue why latvia should be included and this has nothing to do with latvia. JonSonberg (talk) 18:22, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

::: Edit2: Again, this does not actually matter but to exemplify my point, the alternative flag of Estonia is the cross flag. How many people in latvia use a cross flag in their daily activities?

And how many in Estonia use ?  ;;) You personally perhaps use it somewhere but the others... I know well how Estonian flag is and looks like. Estonia does not has any cross flag. I have not seen this "estonian crossflag" never in real life. The only place where I have seen is the internet where Estonians trying to make an impression that this is their flag. Estonian flag is a tricolor.

I suppose these are estonians and looks like the flag is not cross flag: http://estonianworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Estonian-fans-at-the-contest.jpg

I suppose these who use that as you say "alternative flag" are small circle of nordic activists. The only alternate flag what i have seen Estonians use looks like British flag: http://www.jalgpall.ee/images/news/2fb17b95a4af80a18a15275c36f3c2ef

I added the Latvian airline because it operates pretty many flights and connects people in reality withing Nordic sphere. Estonian airline however, does operate less flihts.

Now you're debating about airline fleet sizes..... how is that relevant? JonSonberg (talk) 18:35, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Thus, Estonia has never had any "nordic flag". I am talking about real, existing flags not any alternative opinions or wishful thinkings. Krakeni9

pretty much everyone on Ormsö uses the cross flag for example. I would say the prime minister, the ruling coalition of parties, the president and the foreign ministry would quite well be defined as "the government" in estonia. It is not a "pre-election slogan", it's been in use for years. I dont think you know estonia very well so it is not efficient for you to debate about estonia, it does not make you look intelligent. Besides, this thread is about latvia not estonia. Decide what you are arguing about before writing here. Are you arguing to include latvia or what? If you are arguing about including latvia then your text makes no sense here, because you are offering no reasons to have latvia included here, you're just arguing against estonia. The estonian case has been argued about for over three years on wikipedia and the current status quo has been decided by everyone else. Different from you, most administrators would consider the prime minister, the president and the ruling coalition as a valid example of "the estonian govenrment". You are claiming that because the parliament has not done an "official" declaration of leaving the baltic countries, it doesnt count? That's beyond stupid. Estonia has never declared to be a baltic country either. And why should estonia even do such a declaration, there is no need for it. Anyway, I'm not going to argue about estonia anymore, it's been argued about for 3+ years and the current state is the result. JonSonberg (talk) 16:22, 13 March 2017 (UTC)This actually doesnt even matter for this debate but I just wanted to show you an example from an interview with the new estonian president (the previous president started the nordic movement and the new president has continued with it). She is interviewed by your own latvian television where they ask about the baltic vs. nordic question. She says ee is nordic and refuses the word baltic: "I don't want to use these loaded words like nordic or baltic. Instead I'm using Nordic Benelux". That's pretty much like that with most of the government and people right now. It would be very hard for you to find an estonian who says they are baltic. I hope this answers your question. JonSonberg (talk) 17:43, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

JonSonberg This is not even a debate about whether estonia is nordic or not, this is not mine or yours to decide.

What is this, sarcasm, right? Ee made an application to join to Nordic Council in 1991 but it was rejected. By the way Latvia and Lithuania made the applications as well.

You are not officially Nordic. You are not either.

JonSonberg It would be very hard for you to find an estonian who says they are baltic Estonians are not linguistical Balts as they are Finnic. But finnic does not automatically mean they are Finns, let alone Nordic. Geographically Estonia is Baltic country, to claim contrary is like to claim the Earth is flat.

JonSonberg Decide what you are arguing about before writing here. Are you arguing to include latvia or what? If you are arguing about including latvia then your text makes no sense here, because you are offering no reasons to have latvia included here, you're just arguing against estonia.

Let´s look to the editing history. I was not the one who wanted to delete Estonian section. That was you who deleted the Latvian section. Why did you do what, why you are just arguing against Latvia? If Estonia which is not Nordic is included you have to certainly include Latvia as well.

JonSonberg I'm an estonian swede and my family has lived in estonia since 1200s. If you ask the Estonian Swedes whether or not estonia is nordic, they will say it's nordic.

Estonian Swedes are a tiny fraction of all Estonians. This by the way explains I suppose your enormous activeness in editing this article. It is crying out lodly in editing history list how are you personally interested to sway the content of the article. ;)))

-Estonia says officially it is nordic? No, that is not the case. I suppose you have done a lot of work trying to find out everything possible that supports your personal view but yet he Estonia not declared Estonia as Nordic country, that is a fact. You have posted in substages articles but it is not never officially told. The opinions of journalists or headlines in newsportals make no sense. At first you have to bash Estonian government having not saying things you would like to be said. Thus your statements are unfortunately not correct if not to say are false.

JonSonberg She says ee is nordic and refuses the word baltic: Estonian president refuses to call Estonia nordic in the interview.There is no need to a false.

Quite the contrary- looking Ee president´s interview she never mentions ther that Ee is nordic but Latvia not as you seem to claim. Quite the contrary- Estonian president there emphasises that all countries share according to her eyes the same position and thus they all can be labeled as "Nordic Benelux".

-Issue with Ee flag- the island of Vormisi or Ormso as you refer to it is a tiny fraction of Ee with it´s 240 people. There are 1.3 million inhabitats in Ee, what are we talking about. Secondly, Vormsi is a specific are of former Ee Swedes, thus attitudes what might exists there, as you claime, are hardly transfusable to all Estonians. The picture with cross-styled Ee flag- that might be easily your own personal flag in your personal yard, am I correct? ;))) You have to bash Estonian people being not nordic enough and using not the flag you personally want them to use.

I have posted some arguments, I can post some more if it is needed for Latvia to be included and I am convinced that Latvia has to be included.

There is one editor Estonian Swedish JonSonberg, who argues against Latvia most actively. The current article is just what Estonians wrote in Wikipedia and article without mentioning Latvia is biased. I don´t think Estonians are entitled to dictate the content of the article.There are serious changes needed.

Please refer back to the original comments about your additions. Your claims are not referenced. You are a new editor on wikipedia, which indicates you have a POV on this topic. Nationalities and personal opinions are not important in wikipedia, only referenced and on-topic content. You can read more on Verifiability. Thank you. JonSonberg (talk) 13:52, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Krakeni9

To User:Krakeni9: If your attempt to add chapter about "Latvian integration" was serious, then it violated Wikipedia:No original research principle, because non of given sources mentioned Latvian integration into/with Nordic countries or even Nordic identity in Latvia. If it was added to point out problems with chapter "Estonian integration", then it violated Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point principle and you should look for less disruptive and more constructive approach to make Wikipedia better. Minnekon (talk) 00:17, 22 March 2017 (UTC)