Talk:Nizam al-Mulk

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Untitled

Eliminated the link to a list of Iranian Scientists. The description of anyone living before the 17th century as a scientist is an anachronism. Carinae986 (talk) 08:14, 25 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What is Borges's source in the anecdote about khayyam, nizam al-mulk and sabbah? This story is also repeated in the khayyam's article so I guess either it has to be based on a historic document or has to be deleted. A 20th century fiction writers mentioning it is hardly any evidence to these three people even meeting each other.

Yeah, I think identifying it as "possibly apocryphal" is being a bit generous, especially given how much younger Nizam al-Mulk was than the other two men. I know some other modern writers who have mentioned the legend, but I'm not sure of its source. Breadhat 23:13, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just reading Zwemer's biography of Al-Ghazali and he quotes the story, but gives the source as Mirkhond's (the medieval Persian historian) History of the Assassins. A rather better source than Borges.

I've reverted a recent, factually incorrect edit by an IP. Tājik (talk) 00:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for watching out. I think this article like many Iran related ones can use improvement. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 21:00, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted User:Nedim Ardoğa because his edit was irrelevant. Nizam al-Mulk was not Turkish, he is not associated with modern Turkish, and probably did not even know Turkish. Tajik (talk) 15:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can't understand why you're so allergic to Turkish, he was a vizier of a Turko-Persian empire, his works inspired many Turkish/Turkic scholars and statesmen, why not write his name in Turkish also? And if we won't write his name in Turkish because he was Persian then we should not write Seljuk sultans' names in Persian because they were Turkic origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.227.84.71 (talk) 01:45, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Totally irrelevant comment. The Seljuqs were Persianized, had Persian, and spoke Persian at court. We do not have any historical documents proving that the Seljuqs used Turkish at court, it is just an assumption. Nizam al-Mulk's origin and language, on the other hand, are well-documented. Tajik (talk) 09:31, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I don't deny he is Persian and Seljuks were Persianate, I just say, Seljuks are an important part of Turkish history also, and Nizam al-Mulk affected Turkish history. So it would be better to write his name in Turkish too, and why do you find hard to accept the fact that Turks and Persians shared a great history together? (Russians elites used French in some part of the history, that didn't make them French, there are lots of examples like that, so language doesn't prove anything as a single fact. The important thing is Turks and Persians governed Iran and most of the Midlle East, and their legacy affected Turks and Persians mainly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.110.253.246 (talk) 13:49, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jorge Luis Borges

The Jorge Luis Borges citation is wrong. The story of his friendship with Omar Khayyam and Hassan-i-Sabbah does not originate with Borges.

Edward Fitzgerald mentions the story in his Introduction to his translation of the Rubaiyat, citing Calcutta Review, No. 59, from Mirkhond's History of the Assassins. You can find Fitzgerald's Introduction through Project Gutenberg or in any of the printed editions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.45.177.251 (talk) 21:38, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The story originates in Rashid al-Din Hamadani' Sargudhasht-i Sayyidnâ, supposedly drawn from the now lost biography of Hassan i-Sabbah in the Ismaili library of Alamut. The dates make it implausible, though the story has its defenders. It would explain (though it would not be by any means the only explanation) of Hassan's initial success at the Seljuk court. It is quite right to say that (1) Borges is a hopeless source for this - we might as well be citing things we saw in films; (2) "apocryphal" is also wrong. Doubtful maybe, but that is different. I do not, alas, have the ability to read the original nor a source for it in translation so I can't edit the article with a good source. There are good sources for this story such as: Harold Bowen, “The sar-gudhasht-i sayyidnā: the Tale of the Three Schoolfellows and the waṣāya of the Niẓām al-Mulk,” JRAS, 1931, but alas I do not have sufficient rights to access a copy and, without having read it, I am not prepared to make an edit. I will see if I can obtain sight of a copy. Francis Davey (talk) 10:01, 8 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Imprecise Language

By calling Jorge Luis Borges "apocryphal," this article seems to suggest that Borges' fictional rendition of Nizam al-Mulk's biography is some sort of original source, albeit an unreliable one. Perhaps a simple categorization of the information provided will help in clarifying this article. For instance, Jorge Luis Borges' version could be included in "modern receptions" or "Nizam al-Mulk in Modern Literature." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.74.243.149 (talk) 21:28, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

the honorary title

Nizam al-Mulk is a honorary title which means in arabic the "Order of the Realm" --Nizam-al-Mulk2020 (talk) 21:40, 18 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Great, that sounds like either the Persian language imported it or, more likely, v.v. What's your point? Removing POV tag pending something that makes sense. Bromley86 (talk) 11:59, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is not loanword and it could not be imported to persian because this title (Nizam al-Mulk) has a unique grammar structure) which Indicates it's arabic origin Nizam-al-Mulk2020 (talk) 21:55, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Many people have Arabic or Hebrew names, but you can't add Arabic/Hebrew language to their articles per WP rules and guidelines. Ottoman sultans had Arabic names/titles, but you can't add Arabic to their articles, because it's an irrelevant language. Nizam al-Mulk was a Persian, nothing is Arab or Arabic about him except his name just like many Muslims. So do not disrupt the article anymore. --Wario-Man (talk) 05:15, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is not name, it's honorary title which is arabic --Nizam-al-Mulk2020 (talk) 21:05, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am not contesting that Nizam al-Mulk is Persian and wrote in Farsi, although the person lived in Baghdad and wrote in Arabic too, etc. The name Nizam al-Mulk itself is Arabic, so the language for the transliteration should be Arabic. Cheers. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 22:04, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Although his title, "Nizam al-Mulk" is in Arabic, but I think there are good reasons for the language to be Persian instead of Arabic:
In terms of identity, he was a Persian
He himself wrote works in Persian
He was the vizier of Saljuq Empire and their official language was Persian
Persian borrowed many words and grammatical structures from Arabic, so the title "Nizam al-Mulk" can't be considered merely an Arabic name.

-- Kouhi (talk) 03:34, 11 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Arabic and Persian spelling is the same you can put it side by side. His Persian work is just two works if I'm not mistaken, while building institutions like the Nezamiyeh around the Empire, brought religious studies (uses Arabic) to various people, which I'm sure he is accustomed to know it and knowledgeable of such studies. Persian titles are so few, I haven't seen any Persian title of Seljuq usage, while Arabic titles have Islamic connation, it's no surprise that the childless Tughril beg is named Muhammad, and took the Kunya of Abu Talib and the laqab of Sultan mashriq and maghrib, a clear reference to Muhammad's uncle and Quranic wording. His brother did the same thing and his nephew. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 03:50, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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