Talk:New Mexico State University

Evidence for claim of flagship

@Alamo NM: You've added information to this article several times claiming that this university is a "flagship" but you have not provided any sources. The sources I've looked at don't support this claim. Can you please provide some reliable sources that substantiate this claim? Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 16:48, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

@ElKevbo: Hi Following the multiple methods to designate flagship universities, and lacking any real specific or legal definition, New Mexico has several flagship universities, including UNM as a R1 college, and NMSU as the land grant and oldest institution. Texas adopts a similar system. http://www.diycollegerankings.com/what-is-a-flagship-university/19598/

Also, see the Standard and Poor report http://img.en25.com/Web/StandardandPoors/Flagship%20University%20Jul%2023%2010.pdf

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alamo NM (talk • contribs) 13:34, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! Can you please add the Standard & Poor reference to the article so that this is clear for other editors and readers? ElKevbo (talk) 17:54, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

That source seems to list a bunch of universities as "flagships" and even entire systems. Although this is a good source to utilize it offers a definition of "flagship" that is not universally accepted. This article also seems to focus on on the credit bonds of universities, not so much as a source of precise flagship university comparisons. Looking at the whole picture (and the consensus of the sources) it is generally more clear that New Mexico State University is not seen as the flagship university, and rather the University of Mexico is. AlaskanNativeRU (talk) 19:59, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

agreed there is no universally accepted defintion. As such I do not see consensus of sources (reference or unreferenced), and I do not see that is generally more clear as to which sets of universities are, and are not, considered flagship. Alamo NM (talk • contribs) 18:06, March 20, 2019 (UTC)

@Alamo NM: According to the US Department of Education - ERIC, a list recognized by the United States Government in this study here, and College Board, within their survey of flagships published annually here, both of which are primary sources listed on the Category talk:Flagship universities in the United States page, UNM is the only university recognized as a flagship in the state. Also, within the state itself, there aren't any publications or official language that call NMSU a flagship, meanwhile UNM has been consistently considered the flagship university since its inception, as seen in the Acts of the Legislative Assembly of the Territory of New Mexico, 28th session, chapter 138, section 7: “The university of New Mexico hereby created and established, is intended to be the state university when New Mexico shall [be] admitted as a state into the union”. I believe that that's enough to counteract the prior source as it lists, as others have mentioned, universities that are not considered flagships within their states. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtrws (talk • contribs) 16:23, August 17, 2019 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, the U.S. Department of Education doesn't recognize "flagship" institutions. The department does support ERIC but that's just a repository of education publications that doesn't constitute endorsement of what is in those publications. The quote that you provided doesn't even include the word "flagship" or name this institution so I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion.

As has been stated many times, in most cases the "flagship" designation is informal, unregulated, and provided by many different people with many different definitions, criteria, and motivations. So it's entirely possible that some states have multiple "flagship" institutions or that different lists contradict one another. It appears that reliable sources have been provided for this institution so the more productive argument would be to focus on whether these sources should be included at all.

(Personally, I'd rather us remove all mention of this designation except for the handful of states that have this as a formal designation. It doesn't seem to be helpful for anyone and it just provokes these stupid, time-wasting arguments and edit wars. Moreover, for many institutions this designation is just another way that they trumpet their eliteness and superiority which is obviously not something we should support or document.) ElKevbo (talk) 21:35, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree with ElKevbo and admire their patience. --Melchior2006 (talk) 13:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

The New Mexico State University (NMSU) page continues to be updated with a claim it is one of the state's two flagship universities. While a couple entities have indicated that NMSU seems to meet their definition of a flagship, the NM state legislature, the NM governor--I would call authoritative bodies--have continually defined the state's flagship university being the University of New Mexico (UNM). Describing on this page that NMSU is a flagship is inaccurate, misleading, and contrary to state officials' statements. Citing opinions of entities such as a bond rating agency and a testing agency that NMSU has qualities of a flagship do not make it a flagship in light of the state government's view. (Texas does have two flagships, but only because the state legislature has declared so; New Mexico's government has not.) Ddg11112 (talk) 03:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ddg11112: and @Alamo NM: Stop edit warring and work things out here in Talk. ElKevbo (talk) 22:03, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

My apologies and not my intention to be engaged in "edit warring." OK, here's dialogue for Talk: It seems evident that NMSU is not considered one of two flagship universities in NM, as I've previously described; additionally, there is no record of the institution (NMSU) ever referring to itself as "one of the state's flagships." In contrast, state officials have declared that the University of New Mexico is the state's flagship (and no record of NMSU described as such.) Prior discussion in Talk by other editors indicate lack of support for defining NMSU as a flagship institution of the state. An earlier commenter noted, "there is no universally accepted definition" of a flagship...but I argue there _is_ common acceptance of what it means by the majority, notwithstanding outliers that might try to redefine or expand it. But what's most important is that in the State of New Mexico it's been made clear by elected officials that the University of New Mexico is the one and only "flagship." The state legislature in Texas has designated two flagships in that state, as well as the governor of New York in her state--that should be the standard of measure for New Mexico, as well, as it pertains to this Wikipedia page. Ddg11112 (talk) 23:57, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

@Alamo NM: Here's your opportunity to reply. Dispute resolution requires sufficient discussion on Talk prior to any further action. Ddg11112 (talk) 23:52, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

See above. Alamo NM (talk) 18:34, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

References

Sexual abuse case

@Alamo NM why did you revert the edit about sexual assault at NM during hazing rituals? Deuce Benjamin was awarded $4.125 million and Shak Odunewu got $3.875 million. The source is given; this is relevant information. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 18:32, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Lawsuits

@Melchior, I would frame the pile of lawsuits as a Title IX/civil rights/discrimination issue, as all of these were brought by women over gender issues. The Kinesiology lawsuit would fit in there because letting a known sexually aggressive faculty member carry for years regardless of all complaints is gender discrimination. The sports team related lawsuits might fit ("they are young men, let them carry on") or not, and then there's that one related to the death of a young man at a party house owned by the former soccer coach. 73.228.28.17 (talk) 18:52, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

My question would be about whether the new section's content really has a thematic connection or not. It seems like it might devolve into a sort of "Hall of Shame," which would be inappropriate. Also, I am not sure about the connections between the sports-related cases because they are disparate, off-campus, not really related to sport, unless of course the death at the former soccer coach's house can be placed in some relation to football? I'm not sure about that yet. Let me know what you think. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 06:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Were the lawsuits successful? Did they have any lasting impact on the university? I ask because we typically shouldn't typically include information about unsuccessful lawsuits or those that had no lasting impact. For one, anyone in the U.S. can file lawsuits for any reason, including completely frivolous reasons and cases without merit. Moreover, even successful lawsuits can have little or no lasting impact on an organization raising questions about WP:DUE. ElKevbo (talk) 13:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

The answer would be yes, to both questions: Laura Castile settled for 60 kUSD in her case, a standard amount in a discrimination/unfair dismissal case, but Provost Parker and Professor Osanloo settled for 500 kUSD each. Those two suits must really really have merit because of the way above average payout. Inside Higher Education has a piece quoting the lawyer representing one of the parties: 'Gubernick, an attorney for Castille, told the newspaper, "This is people trying to remove checks and balances. This is like Game of Thrones–type stuff."'

OK, fine - he is a lawyer and trying to make business for himself, but the matter does speak for itself: three successful discrimination lawsuits plus the ongoing Kinesiology sex abuse case in two years bespeaks a dysfunctional work environment with HR asleep at the wheel. NMSU is a large employer, but one does not normally see that sort and that number of cases.

And yes, there have been leadership changes - Provost Shoho was hired to improve the internal climate, but he failed and is now out. Provost Parker was pushed out over highlighting salary discrepancies between men and women, and Castile, then director of the Equity Office was fired over questionable hiring practices by the upper administration. The general feeling, as articulated by the Chronicle of Higher Education and local newsmedia is that there is a management crisis. 73.228.28.17 (talk) 17:07, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Refrain from rumors and gossip

Every campus has rumors and gossip. No need for this type of vandalism on a wikipedia page. Alamo NM (talk) 20:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Flagship status

As NM does not have a state system there is no single flagship designation. See the description of flagship on Wikipedia itself. So in states with not system, and therefore no flagship is designated, yet more neutral and proper approach is either to have none, or to have multiple.

The most standard approach is to use the oldest institution (again see the Wikipedia article itself). In this case, with two universities in NM being so close in age, the most inclusive and non confrontational approach is to settle for both. 2601:8C1:8380:4500:6C:ED9A:A88B:2FF8 (talk) 13:41, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

No, Wikipedia editors do not decide which institution is labeled a "flagship." We rely on published, reliable sources. ElKevbo (talk) 14:08, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Take a look at the multiple sources on the Wikipedia page. Solve it there. And stop this unprofessional editing reverts. 2601:8C1:8380:4500:C862:89A9:F52:4C79 (talk) 23:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

For the purposes of talk, it would be good to list the sources here that claim NMSU has flagship status. I am new to the discussion, but I have not been able to find many. A Forbes article claims that New Mexico has two flagships. Are there other sources making this claim? -- Melchior2006 (talk) 07:26, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any justification for determining a single flagship university here. This status is regularly attached in states where there is a clear university system. But New Mexico does not have a system. NMSU Main Campus is clearly the flagship of the NMSU system. NMSU is also the oldest university, a regular pointer to flagship status. But UNM self-claims flagship status and have more alumni on the state senate. The two universities are very close in any ranking I can find, and very similar in terms of number of students, research dollars, types of programs, athletics, etc.

In states where there is a clear flagship university, the state senate has a bill stating that fat. All I can find in NM is a few small bills referring to a self-proclaimed status. I don't see any bill actually defining it.

Lacking any actual external judge, it seems inappropriate to be the judge of such a nuisance issue, and clearly the sensible inclusive approach is just to go with 'a' instead of 'the' in both cases, or just decide to forego the phrase completely. Alamo NM (talk) 17:56, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Looking at reliable independent sources, it's clear that UNM is almost universally considered the flagship university, including by the state governor[1], with the single Forbes article on NMSU (which echoes the wording used in this Wikipedia article at the time, making it look somewhat circular) mentioned above being the only outlier (and in their article on UNM, Forbes describes it simply as the "flagship state school"[2]). The argument for NMSU also being a flagship appears to be primarily WP:OR, arguing that since there isn't a formal definition we should simply decide that NMSU should count as a flagship based on various factors; following WP:WEIGHT, however, it is clear that UNM should be described as the flagship and NMSU should not, based on reliable sources. Robminchin (talk) 17:29, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I do not see any independent or reliable sources of UNM being the flagship university. Looking at other states, this should be a state legislation declaration, a state system declaration, or a clear an obvious disconnect in terms of year of creation, size, or ranking. None of these exist, either for UNM or NMSU. Therefore the only neutral stance is to use 'a' for both. 2601:8C1:8380:4500:ED33:6DBB:EBD9:FA72 (talk) 01:17, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It really only takes a few seconds with Google to find independent, reliable sources referring to UNM as the flagship university. Try this: [3] to find news outlets. Or this to find results on the NM legislature site: [4], including memorials passed by the legislature and official reports referring to UNM as the flagship university. Or this to find results on the NM executive site: [5]. What we do on Wikipedia is follow what reliable, independent sources say. Not even NMSU says that NMSU is a flagship university; it would be ridiculous to include it in the Wikipedia article. Robminchin (talk) 01:45, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I do not see a single reliable source defining either university as a flagship. The [3] line fr, Robminchin has nothing related to it. The [4] link shows state memorial asserting without any background. The [5] link are self assertions in documents written by UNM. This is getting silly. the only sensible option is to reach a consensus to let it go without comment, allowing both pages to keep the claim as it has been for years already. Alamo NM (talk) 21:34, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

That position doesn't make any sense. If there isn't acceptable evidence that the claim is supported by reliable sources then the claim should not be in the article(s). ElKevbo (talk) 22:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

You need to read WP:RELIABLE and stop this foolishness. It is abundantly clear what the situation is here, and if you're a conspiracy theorist who thinks UNM is writing the governor's press releases and that outlets like CNBC or the Seattle Times are not reliable sources then we don't have any basis for a rational discussion. Inclusion of a claim on this article that is not supported by reliable independent sources or even by NMSU itself, based on original research and POV-pushing by an editor, would be non-NPOV and totally contrary to the aim of building an encyclopedia. As ElKevbo said earlier, 'Wikipedia editors do not decide which institution is labeled a "flagship." We rely on published, reliable sources'. That's how Wikipedia works. Robminchin (talk) 22:02, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

There is no accepted or even well-defined definition of flagship. Even the Wikipedia article on flagship itself accepts that. In some states a flagship gets explicitly defined by the state. In others, one university is clearly the highest. In NM, as in North Dakota, this not true. We should not be a designator or a judge of status. As there is no consensus, we should adjudicate.

Moreover the self definition of flagship is sometimes use by some universities and their alumni to then make that university receive more state dollars. We should not encourage or permit that. It beneath us. Stay above the fray. 67.206.170.116 (talk) 14:05, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

So..... Can anyone provide us with an accepted or even well-defined definition of flagship? --Melchior2006 (talk) 14:47, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

It's the same as everything else on Wikipedia – we follow the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy and reflect what reliable sources say. In this case, reliable sources are pretty much unanimous in not calling NMSU a flagship university, so per WP:WEIGHT we don't mention it. If there was a split in reliable sources on whether NMSU is a flagship university, we would reflect that there was a split. If there were lots of sources saying both NMSU and UNM are flagship universities, we would say they were both flagship universities. What we never do is adjudicate – if there is no consensus we say that there is no consensus. In this case, where there is a clear consensus in reliable sources, we follow that consensus. Robminchin (talk) 18:12, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity: what is a flagship university? If we can't define it, we have another problem entirely. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 18:23, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

If we look at the set of source quoted above, we don't see any reliable source sources of flagship to be uniquely applied to UNM. We don't even see any reliable sources that it should be applied to UNM. As stated above, if we want 'reliable' (as defined by what others states use to define sole and unique use of flagship) then we need an act of the senate, or a major difference in some statistic that makes it obvious. Alamo NM (talk) 21:41, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

No, that's not how we define "reliable" when we're talking about sources. ElKevbo (talk) 21:49, 2 August 2024 (UTC)