This is an archive of past discussions about Nelson Mandela. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
'Mandela Day will be celebrated on the 18th of July each year. It will give the people in South Africa and all over the world the opportunity to do something good to help others.
Madiba was politically active for 67 years, and on Mandela Day people all over the world, in the workplace, at home and in schools, will be called upon to spend at least 67 minutes of their time doing something useful within their communities, especially among the less fortunate.' (talk 13:05 18 July 2009 GMT+2) —Preceding undated comment added 11:06, 18 July 2009 (UTC).
Can someone verify or cite the bit in the Early Life section about it being called the Left-Hand House? --Blckhawk1234 (talk) 23:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC) (Forgot to log in)
Done. The original source is Mandela's Long Walk to Freedom, but it's explained in context here. The concept is interesting because the term "bride of the Left-Hand House" is nearly identical to a term of German origin ("bride in a Left-Hand wedding") for the similar European phenomenon of morganatic marriage, in which children of wives of inferior status are legitimate by law, but ineligible to inherit their father's crown. Several such semi-royal descendants of reigning dynasties "compensated" by achieving international renown as diplomats in the 20th century, viz. Count Folke Bernadotte, Louis, Earl Mountbatten of Burma, and Chief Nelson Mandela (the first two were also assassinated). PlayCuz (talk) 08:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Video about hymn of MK
I stumbled upon this video on youtube and searched for additional information on the hymn/song of MK on wikipedia and with google, I could not find any information about it, but I found some blogs and news articles. and some quotes: Quotes: "Kill the Boer, Kill the Farmer" - Peter Mokaba (ANC). "When Mandela dies we will kill you whites like flies" - Mzukizi Gaba (ANC). the last one is something that is very unbelivable when you read this article in wikipedia, isn't it something to add for balance as a "quote about mandela"? 130.251.167.63 (talk) 09:26, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
The video is discussed here, giving the words and translation as "Hamba kahle mkhonto we Sizwe, Tihna Abantu bomkhonto Sizimisele Ukuwa bulala woma lamabunu – We members of Umkhonto are prepared to kill all the Boers." The video is apparently an excerpt from a short documentary called "The Songs They Sing"; as far as I can tell, this clip started circulating in 2006 and may have come from an advocacy website called African Crisis. The recording seems genuine and the translation seems like a reasonable interpretation. The event was in 1992, possibly after the Bisho massacre or similar event where black ANC members had been killed. The song was widely sung at funerals and political rallies at the time. In the video, Mandela's head is slightly bowed and he raises his fist in a solemn salute (to the fallen comrade?) but does not appear to be singing. Ronnie Kasrils (shown singing with Mandela) says the following about the song: "Although we sang 'Hamba kahle Umkhonto... bulala amabhunu' (go well Umkhonto... kill the boers) we explained that we were referring to a system and the security forces that upheld it, and not a race group. When it is sung today it is in the context of the burial of MK combatants and the refrain goes: 'Thina sisimisele ukuphila nawo wona amabhunu' (we are prepared to live with the boers). And that implies living together in peace and harmony." (A Time for War and a Time for Peace, memorial lecture to Job Tabane, delivered by Ronnie Kasrils at the invitation of the Gauteng Political Education and Training Unit, June 25, 2008).
The other two quotes don't have much to do with Mandela. "Kill the Boer" was a liberation song sung by Umkhonto we Sizwe members, made infamous by Peter Mokaba. The Mzukisi Gaba quote is a threat he made to two policemen arresting him on a charge of drunken driving. He apparently apologised and his remark was condemned by the ANC; see this article and this follow up. Zaian (talk) 20:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Calling the song a hymn might be problematic from an NPOV pov. It seems to have evolved into something like that if the use at funerals is as described, with its revised lyrics, but the original use wasn't as a hymn unless you want to convey a tendentious assertion like "the ANC worshipped violence."
What would it would mean to use this material in an NPOV way as contextual information about Mandela? The query implies that it would be as bad or negative information introduced to provide "balance" to positive views or tone. IMO that's not how to see it, NPOV.
Both items point to the fact that Mandela has operated in complex and difficult political contexts with pressures from many directions from people whose views he didn't always share but with whom he had to cooperate, inside the ANC, but also negotiating partners. Peter Mokaba was famous, or notorious, as leader of the ANCYL (though well past his own youth), for manipulating anger, impatience and despair among youth for personal political advantage within the ANC. At the same time, there was something there to manipulate. Mandela had to deal with both facts. One of the aims of the "third force" figures behind the Bisho massacre and similar events of the period (e.g. Chris Hani's assassination in early 1993) was to derail the complex constitutional negotiations by touching off anger and violent attempts at vengeance.
How do we interpret this song in 1992? On one hand it might have stoked anger; on the other hand it may have been a sort of pressure valve expressing felt anger in a way not immediately violent. I imagine Ronnie Kasrils (at the time MK's military head I believe) seeing it both lights, as preparing the forces for a fight if rightwing violence expanded, and as helping to control undisciplined responses.
After the constitutional settlement, the song does seem to have been converted into a quasi-hymn honoring those who fought or prepared to fight. But the changed lyrics define and memorialize the ultimate end of their acts as creating a normal, peaceful society.
As for Mzukisi Gaba's 1997 quote, even if taken at its most literal, or under an "in vino veritas" view as exposing a true underlying desire, rather than as just a stupid drunken expression of anger, it would be evidence that Mandela's influence in 1997 was restraining people from acting on violent views or impulses. Gaba says in effect that for him & others to act as he spoke would be to betray Mandela and go against his wishes. Chris Lowe (talk) 19:49, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't think it deserves inclusion in this article anyway. Violence in struggle songs is an interesting debate, but it's got very little to do with Mandela. Mandela apearing at a funeral in 1992 where this song was sung is not notable in Mandela's biography. Circulating this video clip pushes an agenda along the lines of "Mandela might look like a saint but this video proves that he actually wants to kill us". Frankly, it doesn't stick. Zaian (talk) 06:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
If you disagree with the points raised in the discussion above, you are welcome to argue the point, but please Assume good faith. When someone raised the question about this song, I actually spent quite a bit of time and effort researching it and describing what I found, and then weighing up whether to add something to the article. I don't appreciate your anonymous accusations that I was censoring information to push an agenda. Zaian (talk) 09:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
It may just be me, but I do feel that we need a better image for Mandela. The present image is of a low quality, and I think we need a new image. --EclipseSSD (talk) 17:46, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Those are great images, but very unlikely to be available under a free licence. However, US federal government images are. See for example [3], [4], and more at [5], although some of those are copyright. Zaian (talk) 19:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
It is, just not all of it. Nelson doesn't seem to be represented here. Just his middle name, and his last name. Middle name in native tongue? --Blckhawk1234 (talk) 15:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Nelson Mandela's religion
I think the article should also mencione what are Nelson Mandela religious beliefs. He was raised as a methodist but now I think he's more probably an agnostic.85.242.239.13 (talk) 19:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Mandela specifically states he is a Christian and is Methodist near the end of his imprisonment, at 70~ years of age (read: not simply during his childhood, while being raised); cited from his autobiography, published in 1994. My suggestion (page is protected) is that this citation is more than enough presently, unless the above conjecture can be supported by a strong source. Jwehrman (talk) 05:36, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
I don't believe he was ever a member of the SACP, but rather his close ties to Joe Slovo and the CP made him an easy target for his detractors. He spoke openly in favour of Fidel Castro, whose role in assiting anti-colonial and anti-apartheid groups in southern Africa cannot be understated. The ANC originally had a openly socialist programme, and many members were also affiliates of the CP. However, he also famously stated that "many say that the Communist Party used us. Who is to say that it was not us who used them?" For these reasons, I am going to hyperlink him to the "South African socialists" category, but I would think it would be inappropriate to include him as a communist. P1nkfl0yd (talk) 06:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
The Presidency of South Africa section mentions criticism of his failure to tackle the epidemic, but does not give any statistical information so that readers of the article can determine what happened to the spread of the infectious disease during the five years he was in charge of SA. By how much did the number of people infected increase whilst he was head of government? Correct & improve (talk) 17:02, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Small mistake
Just something small I noted (Don't know how to change it)
Under Musical Tributes, there is no mention whatsoever of Ladysmith Black Mambazo. When Mandela was released from prison in 1990 and the apartheid abolished in 1991, LBM wrote a celebratory album, Liph' Iqiniso, that was released in 1993. The last track on the album, "Isikifil' Inkululeko"("Freedom Has Arrived", was a celebration of the end of the apartheid. The group also accompanied Mandela in 1993 to the Nobel Peace Prize ceremony in Oslo, Norway, and also performed for his inaugaration in 1994. All this information is directly from Ladysmith Black Mambazo's wiki page. KLServ225 (talk) 18:06, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Grammar mistake
someone please fix this line:
"A letter in support of the decision to release Megrahi was sent to the Scottish Government from the Nelson Mandela Foundation to the Scottish Government on behalf of Mandela"
Mandela's grandfather
In the first paragraph under 'Early life' it says 'One of the king's sons, named Mandela, became Nelson's grandfather and the source of his surname.'
It states that Chris Hani was 'leader of the ANC' - he was leader of the South African Communist Party, and sure enough a leader within the ANC in the general sense, but he was not the 'party leader'. This point should be clarified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.145.109.212 (talk) 16:37, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Transkei
I may sound like a complete idiot when i say this but the article says that nelson mandela was born in Transkei I beleive however that he was born in Umtata near Transkei —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.4.70.46 (talk) 03:07, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
On the TV show Fools and Horses, the charecters reside in Nelson Mandela House, a fictional building in Peckham. Given the popularity of the show, perhaps it should be mentioned in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.121.65.159 (talk) 23:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
With so much discussion of his political views and statements, I'm surprised no mention is made of his open support for the Palestinian cause while such a position was still questioned by much of the world. 76.93.149.88 (talk) 07:12, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Wrong name
Nelson is not his birth name and the article says it is.
He did not even receive that name until he was introduced to Christianity....his actual birth name given to him by his father is Rolihlahla Mandela. Check out his autobiography "long walk to freedom" for the reference. --Jdreyes83 (talk) 08:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Post Of NAM Secretary General
He held the post of Secretary General of thr NAM. Add the post Secretary-General of the NAM along with predecessor successor and period for which post held. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.95.108.137 (talk) 13:37, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Also the use of the word "clan" is problematic as this is not a word used to describe the subgroups of a people in South Africa. The correct term would be "tribe" even though it does not conform to the traditional Western meaning of the word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thedebaser (talk • contribs) 13:42, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Problem with incumbent President
The article lists Andrés Pastrana as the president that preceded Mandela. Pastrana is a former president of Colombia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.8.158.42 (talk) 02:24, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Winnie had some strong things to say about Mandela on the issue of betray, and she is not alone so where is the critic section? All statesmen have it on wikipedia.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 10:09, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not allowing unbiased truths about Nelson Mandela to posted on his page. He participated in bombings, and is therefore a terrorist. But leftist wikipedia keeps removing that from his biography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlambe3 (talk • contribs) 00:06, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Have you actually read the sections of the article on his political activities, and would you like to point out factual information that is suppressed? Have you read WP:Words to avoid? Just because there is opposition to your cavalier addition of the word "terrorist" to one of the opening paragraphs, suddenly it's "leftist wikipedia", "not allowing unbiased truths" - any other conspiracy theories you'd like to throw in? Zaian (talk) 07:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Mandela / Ayob controversy
Concerning this edit, and the ones immediately before and after it...
Hi, I think the BLP point is covered because these claims are referenced, even if the references are no longer available online. You can still get old Business Day articles from a library, for example. (In case you're interested, most of this section was written by User:Zayd who is almost certainly Zayd Ayob, the son of Ismail Ayob.) Zaian (talk) 10:08, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
What! That's even worse. Now there are WP:COI issues also. I'm going to dump this in the talk page, see if anyone else has misgivings over it. Mannafredo (talk) 12:55, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Public statements
Is Mr Nelson Mandela still alive? And if he (Mr Mandela) is why did he not yet state any comments about Julies Malema’s attack towards white South Africans which he (Mr Mandela) has worked so hard to build up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.142.192.43 (talk) 05:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
He is 91 years old. I think the article makes it quite clear that he has retired from public life. At that age, and for someone with his status, it's not surprising that Mandela doesn't take part in public disputes with the ANC Youth League. Zaian (talk) 07:01, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Reformat Quote Style
“
”
I would like to reformat the style of the quotes in the article (remove the cquote template style of large blue quotation marks as shown above) because it violates WP:MOSQUOTE which says:"Format a long quote (more than four lines, or consisting of more than one paragraph, regardless of number of lines) as a block quotation, which Wikimedia's software will indent from both margins. Do not enclose block quotations in quotation marks (and especially avoid decorative quotation marks in normal use, such as those provided by the cquote template". Are there any objections?-- — Kbob • Talk • 15:05, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Error: Says Thembi lived 1946–1969, and died at age 25
There is clearly a mistake:
"Madiba Thembekile (Thembi) (1946–1969)...was killed in a car crash in 1969 at the age of twenty-five" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.229.241.171 (talk) 14:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
First wife
Mandela's first wife accused him in a sworn statement during divorce proceeding that he physically abused her (beaten and choked). He also had affairs. For more sources see:
The Newsweek quote comparing Mandela to "Washington and Lincoln rolled into one" is not a very good phrase. For one thing, South Africa's equivalent of Washington, obviously enough, is Paul Kruger (even though he may be a more controversial figure). And in any case, this is a view from the US; it would be more instructive to get an opinion of how Mandela is seen in his country from his fellow countrymen. Sredni vashtar (talk) 13:17, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
No criticism section? Really? There's plenty of criticism already in the article, you would think it would be important to have for NPOV/FaB.
Ronald Reagan is a good example of how this article would ideally look. Unfortunately, that's not how it looks at all, and I don't know a whole lot about Mandela. The Reagan article has plenty of criticisms noted but it's done from NPOV, and although Reagan is considered by many to be one of the greatest US Presidents, that article likewise refrains from such saccharine praise as this one has. Rather surprising actually that this article needs so much attention given the subject. - OldManNeptune (talk) 10:00, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
The article is sketchy about Mandela's alleged involvement in sabotage, and makes it difficult for the reader to assess the extent to which he may have been involved in terrorism. Expansion by parties better informed than me would, I think, be welcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.10.140 (talk) 19:27, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Valid point. In the past I've tried to find out about individual acts carried out by Mandela or by Umkhonto we Sizwe under his leadership, and also whether there were any deaths. There is very little specific detail in either his autobiography or the biography by Anthony Sampson. Umkhonto we Sizwe's acts were rather amateur and largely symbolic (Mandela says as much) during the short time Mandela was at the helm. The crime of "sabotage" was also defined rather broadly. I'm sure if there had been any really significant acts of sabotage or any deaths, it would have been well publicised by the apartheid government. Zaian (talk) 11:29, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
Portier
the article for goodbye bafana says that madela was not played by sidney portier, but by Dennis Haysbert, although the article says otherwise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.177.96 (talk) 20:11, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
The text of this article is correct. It says Mandela was played by Sidney Poitier in the film Mandela and De Klerk, and by Dennis Haysbert in Goodbye Bafana. Different films, different actors. Zaian (talk) 06:31, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
The text is confusing at the moment, I made the same mistake, as it is not clear which movie Sidney Poitier was in.
The film Mandela and De Klerk told the story of Mandela's release from prison.[188] Mandela was played by Sidney Poitier. Goodbye Bafana, a feature film that focuses on Mandela's life...
I suggest changing it to
Mandela was played by Sidney Poitier in the film Mandela and De Klerk, telling the story of Mandela's release from prison.[188] Goodbye Bafana, a feature film that focuses on Mandela's life... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.102.152 (talk) 04:28, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Edit request from 86.162.40.61, 3 July 2010
{{editsemiprotected}}
Change nelson mandela age to 92
Mr. Mandela is not a communist. During his trial, he admitted to being influenced by Marx, but stated that he himself was not a communist. Josh (talk) 02:30, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
For these reasons, I propose the removal of the paragraph. Mediocre (talk) 05:47, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Mpho Pule
Why is no mention made of Mandela's alleged illegitimate child (Mpho Pule)? (As claimed by the Mandela Foundation). There are plenty of news sources about this:
Mandela was the founder of Umkhonto we Siswe (”Spear of the People”), ANC’s terrorist arm. He never condemned that organization’s acts of indiscriminate terrorism against civilians. The ANC was classified as a terrorist organization by the United States of America and the United Kingdom. Mandela was also responsible for signing off on the Church Street bombing in Pretoria 1983, which killed 19 and wounded more than 200, mostly families in a busy shopping street during rush hour. details: http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~springbk/enemy.htmlQuinacrine (talk) 16:11, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
There are a few right-wing websites stating that Mandela admitted in his autoiography that he "signed off" on the Church Street bombing, but in fact his autobiography does not say that at all. Zaian (talk) 19:44, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
Dismissing the OP with that unreferenced comment does not refute what they were saying. I was dismayed to see the revisionism in this article - calling an attack against the government "sabotage" does not mean it was somehow acceptable - is the attack on the Pentagon on 9/11 to be considered "sabotage" too? Timothy McVeigh destroyed a government building, and is universally recognised as a terrorist. The ANC committed acts of violence against the government and civilians (regardless of whether or not they were the intended targets) using terror and intimidation tactics - by any measure those are acts of terrorism. Nelson Mandela, as their leader, is a terrorist. Though I doubt anyone will be prepared to state it in the article. Dallas (talk) 22:32, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
The term sabotage is what Mandela was convicted of, and is also in line with Wikipedia policy on use of the term terrorist. The real "unreferenced" claim above is the statement that Mandela "signed off" the Church Street bombing. There is a section in Mandela's autobiography describing the Church Street bombing in which he doesn't remotely claim to have signed off the attack, nor does any other reliable source I have seen. In the early years of Umkhonto we Sizwe while Mandela was its leader, its acts were largely symbolic. This later escalated; the Church Street bombing came many years after Mandela was imprisoned. So, what exactly are you claiming about Mandela: that he was responsible for terrorist acts before he was in prison, or that he signed them off while was in prison, or that he must take responsibility for acts committed by the ANC while he was in prison because of his role in the ANC before he was imprisoned? There's also plenty more to refute in the earlier statements: that Church Street was a "shopping" street is misleading since it was outside a military headquarters, and that attacks on civilians were "indiscriminate" - while civilians were killed in many cases, they weren't indiscriminately targeted in the way many other attacks have done around the world, and nowhere near the scale of the McVeigh and 9/11 attacks which you mention. But again, what are you claiming was Mandela's role in the attacks of the 1980s, when he was imprisoned in the 1960s, and where are your references? Zaian (talk) 07:09, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
I would think that to keep NPOV that this belief and nature of the evidence (for/against) describing it should be included in the article. I've no vested interest in the truth or falsehood of this and know very little about Mandela's pre-release life. The article does make mention of terrorism but seems to do so without maintaining NPOV. (i.e. I knew nothing about this debate until I read the discussion page.)
Khoisan ancestry
I would like to suggest that a sentence about Nelson Mandela's Khoisan ancestry be added to the early life section. You can find information about this here: http://beta.mnet.co.za/carteblanche/Article.aspx?Id=2619 as well as a quote from Madiba:
"Actually people like Harry the Strandloper whose real name was Outarmiyo (sp) he was one of the first freedom fighters to go to Robben Island. I addressed a meeting of coloured intellectuals in Pretoria when I was President. A retired teacher said 'we know why you are so close to the coloured people, because you are a coloured yourself'." Totorotroll (talk) 11:20, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
This section in the article itself needs to be edited. The links are all fine, except at the end of the list, someone has put "Check out my BOOBS". For some reason, I don't think that this applies to Mr. Mandela, and it should be removed.
76.181.216.230 (talk) 02:39, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Predecessor??
This article says that Mandela's predecessor was: Andrés Pastrana Arango? Pastrana's article says that he was president of Colombia. This should be changed.--Jorge[tito984] 21:38, 8 December 2010 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tito984 (talk • contribs)
Aragno was his predecessor as Secretary General of Non-Aligned Movement. The table is correct. It mentions his predecessor and successor as President of South Africa separately. Zaian (talk) 06:57, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
In the 2009 movie entitled Invictus, directed by Clint Eastwood, Morgan Freeman portrays Mandela, who asks the South African national rugby team captain (Oscar nominee Matt Damon) and his underdog squad to do the impossible and win the world cup: One team, one country. Freeman's performance as Mandela won him the National Board of Review's Best Actor award and an Oscar nomination.
"Young Mandela" is a book published by David Smith espousing that Nelson Mandela was a wife beater and a womaniser. The book tells how his first wife, Evelyn, claimed he beat and throttled her, and threatened to murder her with an axe. Smith acknowledges that the allegations, which Mandela has always denied, were never tested in court. As for Mandela's reputed affairs, Smith does not hesitate to name names and point to atleast one illegitimate child. He also leaves readers in no doubt of the price paid by Mandela's family for his dedication to the struggle against racial apartheid.
"She identifies her neighbours as potential witnesses," said Smith, "which tends to corroborate her story. She has also repeated it to others over the years. And Mandela himself has admitted that on one occasion he used some force to wrestle a poker away from her."
"The great sadness of his personal life was that his family were all obliged to make sacrifices that were never asked of them but forced upon them. His granddaughter from the first family said to me: 'We feel that people like Madiba, who are going to take up causes in that way, perhaps ought not to have children'. That's how they feel. It's left a trail of suffering in its wake, there's no doubt about it. It's still going on now."
His ex-wife Winnie Madikizela-Mandela described him as more autocrat than democrat in the domestic sphere, Smith said.
Mandela was a wife-beater according to a biography written based on information his own foundation provided to the author
Edit request from 121.222.49.157, 21 February 2011
{{edit semi-protected}}
I believe that Nelson Mandela's 1994 Inaugural address should be included in this section - especially as "Our Greatest Fear" by Marianne Williamson from "A Return to Love: Reflections on the Principles of A Course in Miracles" is often stated as quoted by Nelson Mandela in his 1994 inaugural speech.
As the passage appears nowhere in either of his two 1994 speeches, I believe it would be appropriate and informative to quote the correct speech. Further source: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Marianne_Williamson121.222.49.157 (talk) 16:58, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Could you be more specific in what you think should be added? Are you just saying we need to mention that the speeches happened? If so, in what part? Are the speeches particularly notable to Mandela? That is, we can't mention them here just because they are important to the story of Williamson; they should only be here if those speeches are considered to be important to the story of Mandela. Also, what information should we include? We certainly can't include the entire speeches (that would be done at Wikisource). Qwyrxian (talk) 02:44, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
Emotional Language
Under "Second Marriage," the article states, "Mandela still languished in prison when his daughter..." His emotional state (languish) is hardly relevant here. Suggest: "While Mandela was still in prison, his daughter..." (I would just change it, but page is semi-protected.) Nasulikid (talk) 15:58, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
The following from the article seems like it's hard to prove, and even if proven it wouldn't be very relevant.
"In his 1981 memoir Inside BOSS[55] secret agent Gordon Winter describes his involvement in a plot to rescue Mandela from prison in 1969: this plot was infiltrated by Winter on behalf of South African intelligence, who wanted Mandela to escape so they could shoot him during recapture. The plot was foiled by British Intelligence.[55]"
This paragraph sources one book, which seems to be out of print, very little known and also disputed, according to this [books link]. Moreover, it is mostly irrelevant to Mandela, since the plan never came to fruition.
We'll know more about it as the UK National archives release files on it, well atleast if we live to see that. Can someone from the UK send a letter to the ministry? Thank you so much.
After making my first comment with a bit of humorous intent, I actually went read what the book had to say.
I must say that I do not understand why you linked to the page you linked to, could you please explain.
By means of OCR I'm extracting the 2 pages concerning the case for other wikipedia editors to make use of, I will post them here for now before I move them to a page to which I'll link.
In the book the author criticizes the events and claims the story is untrue.
I highly advise users to read trough this short text. And help me ask and answer the typical historian questions. Who are Whiteman and Sanders, and who is the author of this text. What are their motivations? What more do we know?
The Mandela Escape Plot
Let us move on and read another of the weird Sanders/Winter tales. This one appears under the
heading: “The Mandela Escape Plot” and this one is special because Winter supplied “a file of
documents as supporting evidence” and Dr. Sanders “followed up the story and met the central plotter”
in South Africa. Anyone caring to read the story will find it in pages 44-48 of Dr. Sanders’ book and on
pages 264-283 of Gordon Winter’s book. This was the story:
Once upon a time there was a nice “old-fashioned, socialist Englishman” , “not a communist”, who
lived in South Africa. He was a friend of Mr. Mandela and he wanted to help him to escape from
Robben Island. (Why this story intrigues me so much is because my oldest known European ancestor in
South Afiica, one Pieter van Meerhofil became the chief warder at Robben Island in the year I664. He
and his Hottentot wife, Eva, lived there for a number of years. After he was murdered during an
expedition to Madagascar she lived for a while in Cape Town, but sadly, she went to te dogs, drank too
much, neglected her children and was banished to the island. Poor soul, she died there).
The old-fashioned Englishman was a Mr. Robert Gordon Bruce. In order to organise this escape, Mr.
Bruce placed an advertisement in The Times of London. The wording was as follows: “I SEEK A
PERSON determined to pursue world embracing loyalties beyond national commitments, based
London; adventurous, good contact and liaison; personality; competent organizer; prepared to execute
unusual work in spare time without financial reward. Box 0579Y. The Times”.
This advertisement, which appeared on 18 March 1969, immediately caught the eye of one of the
omnipotent general van den Bergh’s reliable sources in London. This source, who does not appear in
the story again, knew that the advertisement involved South Africa Do not ask how the source knew
this.
General Van den Bergh personally instructed Winter to reply to the advertisement. (Never mind that at
that time KI. was under the day-to-day command of Mike Geldenhuys and under the over-all command
of brigadier Tiny Venter and that the Tall Man was sitting in the Union Buildings and would not have
concerned himself with stupid little source reports like this. Never mind also that at that time in London
we only had one source who had a penchant for reading the smalls in the newspapers and that source
was one Gordon Winter. The source reports went from London to Pretoria under covering letters in a
diplomatic bag once a week. l know this because l had lefi London only a month before this
advertisement allegedly appeared, afler working there for four months. There was never any direct
contact between general van den Bergh and the twenty or more sources we had in London. At that time
international phone calls went through switchboards and no calls of a secret or confidential nature were made).
Winter replied to the advertisement and on 8th April received a reply from a man who called himself
Henry Morgan. The letter, “date-lined” in Johannesburg reached Winter “through a ‘cut-out’ address in
Bath, Somerset” and informed him that a more important letter would follow. The important letter duly
arrived on 29 April and it informed Winter that Morgan “was planning to help Nelson Mandela escape
from Robben Island Jail”. A week later there was another letter asking Winter to pay for the
advertisement in The Times. Winter saw this “as a test“ and promptly “paid the bill". It was for £8 lls.
0d. and the account number was SCCP 81545. Presumably the London Times publishes advertisements
for unknown South Afiicans on accotmt, so to speak, and only bill them later. The advertiser would
then get a co-conspirator in London to pay the bill. The fellow who pays, retains the bill as some sort of
proofi but not the receipt, which just might have the wrong date on it. One must remember to try this in
future!
This letter from Henry Morgan was terribly exciting news for the Boers. “General Van den Bergh had
taken the file to Prime Minister John Vorster and Mr. Vorster sent me his personal congratulations. My
financial status improved also. I was given an increase in salary and told to claim whatever expenses I
needed. My Datsun car was three years old and giving trouble, so Pretoria said l could get myself a new
car and disguise the cost by claiming an extra £18 a month from the State as ‘travelling expenses’ for
the next few years".
And all this largesse just because one Henry Morgan had told him that he wanted to help Mr.
Mandela to escape!
The South Africans proceeded to use hundreds of men to trace Henry Morgan. Every letter posted in
Johannesburg and addressed to Bath was watched, but this failed because Henry Morgan then started
sending the letters via other cities in England and then to Bath and thence to Winter. Presumably the
man must have had numerous associates, so why he was bothering with Winter is not known. Then the
South Africans discovered that Morgan was posting all his letters from one particular street letter-box.
They discovered this because “the South African Post Office bears an individual area code number. This
showed that Henry always used the same street letter-box”. (Next time you get a letter fi'om South
Africa, you just check for that “area code number”. If it shows you the code of the letter-box the letter
was dropped in you’re bound to win a prize!.)
General Van den Bergh then “put a twenty-four hour watch on the box for two weeks, and every
person using it in daylight hours was photographed.” For this purpose a variety of caravans were used,
all fitted out with one-way glass windows and “cunningly concealed periscope cameras”, but all to no
avail, because Morgan posted his letters at night. But eventually the suspect was spotted. An agent,
“Johan”, kept meticulous record of every person who posted letters. Presumably Johan worked night-
shifi. Three visits to the letter-box by this “white man with sleek black hair“ coincided with the receipt
by Winter of three letters, two days alter each posting. “In those days a letter from South Africa to
London took only two days”. So now they had a description of the suspect. Johan was made to stay
permanently in the caravan from where the letter-box was watched. If he fell asleep while somebody
was approaching the box his colleagues woke him up. Meanwhile “l-l.J.Van den Bergh had posted a
civilian car in every street for five blocks round the letter-box. Security men sat in these cars all night on
a shift basis listening to their radio receivers in case the suspect came their way afier posting the letter.
Then they would have followed him using a six-car periodic ‘drop-away’ tailing system”. (In
Johannesburg in I969 , the Security Branch had a staff of less than thirty men).
Honestly! Winter, sitting in London knew all about this bizarre business. Presumably “l-l.J.” phoned
him every night with a progress report.
Then suddenly it all became unnecessary. Henry Morgan adopted a new code-name. He was now
Charles Metterlink and he gave a street address in Germiston to which Winter was to write. "I-l.J. Van
den Bergh gave this house the full treatment, and Security men were stationed near it in a wide variety
of guises. One was a door-to-door salesman selling encyclopaedias. Another spent one hour every
morning and evening cruising along the street selling ice-cream from a toyland ice-cream
van...Another two Security men spent half the day perched up a telephone pole pretending to be post
oflice line repair men." The Security Police discovered that a railway policeman lived in the same
street and Johan was made to stay there watching for the suspect. The upshot of all this was that Henry
Morgan was identified as Roben Gordon Bruce, but having identified him the Police, it appears, for
some strange reason lost interest in him. But not Winter!
What happened next was that Bruce wrote to Winter telling him to make contact with a fi'iend, a pretty
girl called Marianne Borman. Winter did this and James Bond was at it again: “...she was a truly
beautiful person. Our relationship blossomed and l met her three or four times a week - all expenses
met by Pretoria. Our dinners were fabulous, and during the next eighteen months we went to most of the
luxury restaurants in London. To balance this I always made sure that our lunches were simple and
cheap affairs." There was no sex, however.
Bruce appointed Winter as the leader of his group in England and Marianne as his number 2. Bruce also
sent to Winter all the replies he had received to the advertisement and Winter set about checking them
all out and no doubt submitting fanciful reports on all of them to “H.J.".
The escape saga carried on and on. Winter devoted nearly 20 pages to it. All kinds of well known
people were allegedly involved, (without their knowledge), the ex-Beatle John Lennon, Canon Collins,
the aviatrix, Miss Sheila Scott, and a mysterious “Mr. Chips", whose real name, Winter wrote in a
footnote, he could not disclose “for various complicated reasons”. Dr. Sanders, however, tells us that
Mr. Chips was Sir Robert Birley, a fonner headmaster of Eton.
Winter was so carried away by recounting this story that he almost forgot to tell his readers what the
point of it all was. Towards the end he did get to it: “Mandela was to be given a revolver, which would
give the police the excuse to shoot him as he arrived at the airstrip to fly away. But the gun would be
loaded with blanks so that no police officer could be injured. In the heat of the moment, immediately
afier Mandela was shot, a BOSS man would secretly reload Mandela‘s gun with live ammunition.“ So
it was really just an evil BOSS plot.
Eventually, of course, nothing came of it. Winter tells it as follows:
“After talking to Mr. Chips, Henry Morgan wrote to me in August I970 and instructed me toarrange a meeting with Mr. Chips when he returned to London in September. But, before l could do so, H.J. van den Bergh flashed me a wanting ordering me to keep away ii-om Mr. Chips at all costs, as he was suspected of being a high-level operative on the Africa beat for British Intelligence. l-LI. explained that, shortly after l-Ienry Morgan had met Mr. Chips, British Intelligence had contacted him (Van den Bergh) and given him a stem waming. In his message to me, I-l.J. put it this way: ‘The British firm are displeased that you, a British subject, are recruiting British nationals in London to help in the Mandela escape plot, knowing full well that they will be arrested in South Africa. The British firm say that they take a dim view of all this and that I should take you off the case, or they will nobble you”.
Robert Bruce alias Henry Morgan, apparently took a dim view of Winter's unwillingness to carry on
with the plot and demanded that Winter send all his letters and documents to his lawyer in Bath, which
Winter claimed he did. However he kept copies of these documents so that one day he could show them
to a balanced historian!
And there , dear readers, ends the story of the great Mandela Escape Plot. If you believe it you will
believe anything.
When I retumed from London in early 1969 I again handled reports coming from London, but for the
life of me I cannot remember anything about this great escape drama.
Strangely enough, Dr. Sanders says he met Mr. Bruce, but he does not tell his readers what Mr. Bruce’s
recollections of these events were.
--TheHappyMarquis (talk) 08:12, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Edit request from 76.217.39.38, 29 June 2011
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
pp-semi-blp|expiry=7 May 2010|small=yes should be change to pp-protected|small=yes because that was last year and that date passed already.
I wish to make an edit but there's no Edit link. Please someone change the following:
"Until July 2008 Mandela and ANC party members were barred from entering the United States—except to visit the United Nations headquarters in Manhattan—without a special waiver from the US Secretary of State, because of their South African apartheid government era designation as terrorists."
to:
"Until July 2008 Mandela and ANC party members were barred from entering the United States—except to visit the United Nations headquarters in Manhattan—without a special waiver from the US Secretary of State, because of their apartheid era designation as terrorists."
The former makes it sound as if their terrorist activities were recognised as such only by the SA government. The BBC sources supplied do not support that view, it merely states that they were regarded as terrorists by the apartheid government but it doesn't say that the US gov. banned them because of that. The ANC in the 80's was putting bombs in supermarket and openly targetting civilians. --165.143.155.57 (talk) 13:53, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
"The former makes it sound as if their terrorist activities were recognised as such only by the SA government."
"because of their South African apartheid government era designation as terrorists."
In other words, during the time that the apartheid ruled, they were designated as terrorists.
The article DOESN'T state that only the apartheid regime designated it as such. It simply provides a time reference.
(Do you want the article to clearly state that they were designated by the US database as terrorists between 1948 and 1990, which is the apartheid era, and that this had nothing to do with the apartheid regime designating them as such but the way the American intelligence viewed them?)
That would be good, yes. There seems to be a bias where everyone is scared of stating the fact that Mandela supported terrorism. But what I was asking is to make the text clearer. The word "era" in "because of their South African apartheid government era designation as terrorists" is a 3 letter word buried in a long useless mumbo-jumbo to make it hard to read and "sound as if their terrorist activities were recognised as such only by the SA government". That's how I first interpreted it and I'm sure I'm not alone. Now that you excplained it I get it, but it would still be simpler and easier and less biased if it was changed to "because of their apartheid era designation as terrorists". --165.143.155.55 (talk) 14:16, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
"The BBC sources supplied do not support that view, it merely states that they were regarded as terrorists by the apartheid government but it doesn't say that the US gov. banned them because of that."
BBC source:"[...] A bill has been introduced in the US Congress to remove from databases any reference to South Africa's governing party and its leaders as terrorists.
The African National Congress (ANC) was designated as a terrorist organisation by South Africa's old apartheid regime.
At present a waiver is needed for any ANC leaders to enter the country."
The article states that ANC party members need a waiver because during the time that the apartheid regime ruled the ANC were marked as terrorists within the American database.
This is correct and it's what the article on wiki states.
In the section Criticism of U.S. and UK foreign policy, why are periods being used for U.S., yet none are used for UK and UN? In recent years, abbreviation periods have fallen out of use. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ (ᚷᛖᛋᛈᚱᛖᚳ)22:02, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
The section should start with the 1987 HBO film "Mandela," starring Danny Glover and Alfre Woodard. It documents Mandela's early life and ends with him still in prison.129.2.54.172 (talk) 20:48, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Cecil Williams
Would someone please put this information in the article?
"In 1962, at the height of oppression in apartheid South Africa, a gay white theatre Director was arrested with Nelson Mandela. His name was Cecil Williams. This is his story. This film is an unusually revealing portrait of one of the historic figures behind Nelson Mandela’s long struggle for freedom in South Africa. In the early 60s, Mandela traveled incognito across South Africa, orgainizing armed rebellion against the apartheid regime. Driving a gleaming Austin Westminster, Mandela was disguised as the chauffeur for an elegant, impeccably dressed white man. That man was Cecil Williams – a leading Johannesburg theater director, a committed freedom fighter and a gay man. Starring Corin Redgrave, “The Man who Drove with Mandela,” blends dramatized accounts of key incidents in William’s life with archival footage, home movies and contemporary interviews to tell the story of the personal and political bravery of a forgotten hero."
http://www.jezebel.org/films/the-man-who-drove-with-mandela/92.195.11.98 (talk) 03:21, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
CIA involvement in arrest of Mandela
This sentence should be removed unless legitimate sources can be referenced "The arrest was made possible because the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) tipped off the security police as to Mandela's whereabouts and disguise."[1][2][3].
Blum, William. "How the CIA sent Nelson Mandela to prison for 28 years". Third World Traveller. Retrieved 26 May 2008.
Stein, Jeff (14 November 1996). "Our Man in South Africa". Salon.com. Retrieved 26 May 2008.
Without opposition I will be removing the CIA involvement sentence from this article on 9/25/11 because the sources listed are not verifiable and contradictory.
Source 1 says Michael Hoare was the tipster:
"One year later, at a farewell party for him in South Africa, at the home of the notorious CIA mercenary, Colonel "Mad Mike" Hoare, (Donald C.)Rickard himself, his tongue perhaps loosened by spirits, stated in the hearing of some of those present that he had been due to meet Mandela on the fateful night, but tipped off the police instead."
Source 2 says Millard Shirley was the tipster:
"It was Shirley who tipped off the South African police to the whereabouts of Nelson Mandela in 1962, allowing them to throw up a roadblock and capture him, according to Ludi. "Shirley had a high-ranking 'deep throat,' a Durban-based Indian, within South African Communist party ranks," Ludi told The Johannesburg Sunday Times in 1990."
Source 3 is a book that has been widely discredited as inaccurate:
Following is a short list of factual errors in Legacy of Ashes:
OSS was not “barred from seeing the most important intercepted communications” during World War II (page 5); few in any organization could view ULTRA intercepts, but within OSS the X-2 counterintelligence branch had access.
The distinction between the espionage and covert action missions did not emerge in the postwar period (page 11) but years earlier was already part of the organizing principle of OSS; the Secret Intelligence branch handled what would later be called HUMINT, and various other branches were responsible for paramilitary and other covert activity.
The 1949 CIA Act did not provide the Agency with the legal authority to conduct covert action (page 40)—that legislation concerned DCI authorities regarding personnel, secrecy, and unvouchered funds (which certainly helped operations remain covert); the Agency construed its covert action authority from admittedly vague language in the 1947 National Security Act and from Executive Orders.
Weiner obviously read (and quotes from) my Studies in Intelligence article on the ill-fated flight of Jack Downey and Dick Fecteau in 1952, yet he misrepresented a flight to pick up documents as a mission to “rescue” agents who had radioed for help (page 60).
The reference to a “CIA colonel” (page 88) is odd; the KGB had colonels, but CIA never had military ranks—though it has employed military officers.
Weiner also errs when he says that the current director, Michael Hayden (page 510), is the first active-duty military officer to lead the Agency since the early 1950s—that was Admiral Stansfield Turner (1977).
Weiner says that the 1950s-era program to encourage Soviet walk-ins outside the USSR, REDCAP, was not effective and had no significant successes by 1956 (page 124). He forgets the two Peters, Pyotr Deriabin and Pyotr Popov, both of whom were immensely important assets.
The idea that the “Islamic warriors” CIA supported in Afghanistan would later turn on the United States (page xv) fails to make the basic distinction between the Afghan mujahedin, whom the Agency supported, and Arabs who went to Afghanistan in the 1980s—whom CIA did not support.
John McCone was never a deputy secretary of defense (page 180) and did not, as DCI, begin mass firings (page 188). Irassassin (talk) 00:20, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Date of Birth: Born on July 18, 1918.
Place of Birth : Transkei, South Africa.
Father : Gadla Henry Mphakanyiswa.
Mother: Nosekeni Fanny.
1927: Nelson's dad dies. He was placed under the guardianship of Jongintaba Dalindyebo acting chief of the Thembu tribe.
1937: He starts Wesleyan College in Fort Beaufort then studies for BA at Fort Hare University. This is were he met his life long friend Oliver Tambo.
1939: Nelson becomes involved in a boycott against the Universities policies and has to leave university.
1939: He escapes from a arranged marriage and runs to Johannesburg.While he is there he completes his BA through correspondence and studies Law at the University of Witwatersrand.
1944: Nelson Mandela marries Evelyn Mase. They then have 4 children- one of thems dies as a young child.
1956: On 5th december, him and 155 other political activists are charged with treason. The Riviona Trial carrid on until 1956 when all of them were acquitted.
1957: His first marriage ends.
1958: Nelson Mandela marries 'Winnie'. They go on to have another 2 children.
1961: Mandela becomes leader of the Umkhontoat ANC guerilla movement.
1962: 5th august, Mandela is arrested and imprisoned in the Johannesburg Fort.
1962: 25th october, he is sentenced to 5 years in prison but goes on the run.
1964: He is recaptured, tried for treason and sabotage and is sentenced to life imprisonment. He is 46 years old and goes to Robben Island prison where he spends the next 18 years of his imprisonment, before being moved before his eventual release in 1990.
1976: He told the world that he was gay, but liked to have sex on a daily bases with prostitues.
1980: Oliver Tambo launches an international campaign to have Mandela released.
1990: 11th febuary,Nelson Mandela is freed from prison after 27 years.
1991: Nelson Mandela becomes president of the ANC.
1992: Winnie Mandela is convicted of kidnapping and as an accessory to assault. She and Nelson separate.
1993: Nelson Mandela and Frederik Willem de Klerk are awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. He also gets a divorce with 'winnie'.
1994: 26th april, first elections where blacks can vote. The ANC wins the election with 252 seats out of 400.
1998: 18th July, Nelson Mandela marries Graca Machel (widow of former Mozambique President) on his 80th birthday.
2001: He is treated for prostate cancer.
2004: At 85 Mandela announces retirement from official life. Granted the honor of the freedom of the city of Johannesburg.
2005: 6th Jan, Mandela's son Makgatho dies of AIDS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaygirlandboy (talk • contribs) 16:45, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Is there an actual point to any of the above? The article is much better written and is properly sourced too. Roger (talk) 18:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
I have tagged the article in this category. I appreciate that he was later pardoned, but consistent with treatment in other similar cats for other countries I have included on the basis of the original conviction. Appreciate that may excite some comment, hence I am posting rationale here on the talk page. --Legis (talk - contribs) 05:23, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't think I'll be able to find citations to satisfy Wiki's consensus for stating that there is many people who say he tortured people including putting tires around people and then setting them on fire. When there is more than suspicion others should know - so it should be include in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WillardWorsley (talk • contribs) 00:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
You won't because things are a bit different. While he was involved in violence before his arrest. The necklacing was something taking part in the 1980s with his implicit consent I should add. --41.151.77.75 (talk) 07:41, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
Do you have a reliable source for your allegation that Mandela consented to the use of "necklacing"? If not you'd better retract your statement asap. The BLP rules apply to talk pages as well as articles and is unequivocally strict about allegations of a negative nature. Roger (talk) 14:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
File:Young Mandela.jpg Nominated for Deletion
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It says: "Mandela served 27 years in prison, spending many of these years on Robben Island." That's a bit misleading, because he was actually under some kind of house arrest for a couple of years prior to his release. --41.151.77.75 (talk) 07:29, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
It's not misleading - the majority of his sentence was on the island. The "house arrest" phase was only at the very end of his imprisonment. Further it was not "house arrest" as the term is normally understood - he lived in a house on the prison grounds, not his own house. BTW Please don't start a post with a space, it messes up the formatting. Roger (talk) 14:15, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
when mentioning there activities in the 80's like geurilla warfare, shouldn't there be a mention of word terrorist attack like with the church street bombing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.218.11 (talk) 17:18, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
Regarding his armed activities in the 1960's, shouldn't there be more detailed description of the bombings done under his watch. Also how many bombings took place. Also what he and his Mk allies were caught with when they were arrested. What were the charges and evidence brought against him. There are sources for this and it would help if this section were more detailed. I got the following info from the official indictment about what he was convicted for.
The full list of munitions and charges read as follows:
• One count under the South African Suppression of Communism Act No. 44 of 1950, charging that the accused committed acts calculated to further the achievement of the objective of communism;
• One count of contravening the South African Criminal Law Act (1953), which prohibits any person from soliciting or receiving any money or articles for the purpose of achieving organized defiance of laws and country; and
• Two counts of sabotage, committing or aiding or procuring the commission of the following acts:
1) The further recruitment of persons for instruction and training, both within and outside the Republic of South Africa, in: (a) the preparation, manufacture and use of explosives-for the purpose of committing acts of violence and destruction in the aforesaid Republic, (the preparation and manufacture of explo- sives, according to evidence submitted, included 210,000 hand grenades, 48,000 anti-personnel mines, 1,500 time devices, 144 tons of ammonium nitrate, 21.6 tons of aluminum powder and a ton of black powder); (b) the art of warfare, including guerrilla warfare, and military training generally for the purpose in the aforesaid Republic; (ii) Further acts of violence and destruction, (this includes 193 counts of terrorism committed between 1961 and 1963);
(iii) Acts of guerrilla warfare in the aforesaid Republic;
(iv) Acts of assistance to military units of foreign countries when involving the aforesaid Republic;
(v) Acts of participation in a violent revolution in the aforesaid Republic, whereby the accused, injured, damaged, destroyed, rendered useless or unserviceable, put out of action, obstructed, with or endangered:
(a) the health or safety of the public;
(b) the maintenance of law and order;
(c) the supply and distribution of light, power or fuel;
(d) postal, telephone or telegraph installations;
(e) the free movement of traffic on land; and
(f) the property, movable or immovable, of other persons or of the state.
Source: The State v. Nelson Mandela et al, Supreme Court of South Africa, Transvaal Provincial Division, 1963-1964, Indictment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.213.87 (talk) 18:11, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Ismail Ayob controversy
The "Ismail Ayob controversy" section is not properly sourced. This part, for example:
In 2005 and 2006, Ayob, his wife, and son were subjected to a verbal attack by Mandela's advisors. The dispute was widely reported in the media, with Ayob being portrayed in a negative light, culminating in the action by Mandela to the High Court. There were public meetings at which Mandela associates attacked Ayob and there were calls for Ayob and his family to be ostracised by society.
The one source given at the end of the line, [8], makes no mention of any of this. The paragraph is rather contentious and since this is a BLP article, I believe the section needs to be trimmed down to only reliably sourced quotes.126.59.95.211 (talk) 04:08, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Anti-semitic source
These sentences:
While working at Witkin, Sidelsky and Edelman, Mandela completed his B.A. degree at the University of South Africa via correspondence, after which he began law studies at the University of Witwatersrand, where he first befriended fellow students and future anti-apartheid political activists Joe Slovo, Harry Schwarz and Ruth First.
are sourced to this link [9], an anti-semitic website. The article in question states: "This article demonstrates two important points. First, in South Africa as in the United States, the Jewish role in promoting “civil rights” for blacks is essentially the same. It springs from the same motives of anti-white hatred and has the same results: the rule of Jewish oligarchs over whites through black proxies and puppets. Nelson Mandela and Barack Obama went through the same grooming process and play the same role."
The article says: "Although many saw Mandela as a political prisoner, Amnesty International did not consider him as the group "rejects the proposal to recognize as prisoners of conscience people who use or advocate the use of force."
This sentence is confusing. I propose better wording: "Although many saw Mandela as a political prisoner, Amnesty International did not consider him political prisoner because Amnesty International "rejects the proposal to recognize as prisoners of conscience people who use or advocate the use of force." Quinacrine (talk) 10:29, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
It shouldn't read force, but criminal violence. I don't think AI will object to "prisoner of conscience" status, if a person only acts in self-defense. --41.150.18.235 (talk) 10:48, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Links to pages on the ANC website are outdated
Hi
I am involved in the official website of the African National Congress (ANC) www.anc.org.za.
The ANC website has changed a lot over the years. All external links from the Nelson Mandela Wikipedia page to pages on the ANC site are outdated:
First we are told that he was allowed only one letter every six months, and that the letters were generally unreadable because of the censor. In the next paragraph, we are informed that he participated in a correspondence school with a university in London and that he received a degree. Both cannot be true, so which is it? Also, if the prison officials allowed him to engage in correspondence study, they treated him fairly well.John Paul Parks (talk) 06:20, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Prisoners have been (and still are) allowed to do educational correspondence courses. It's not comparable to personal letters at all. Roger (talk) 13:00, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Misspelling
Reference 51 states: "The charge sheet at the trail listed 193 acts of sabotage in total." Trail should be changed to trial.
The text seems to have been inserted into the wrong place or needs to be edited for clarity.
"The wedding followed months of international negotiations to set the unprecedented bride price to be remitted to Machel's clan. Said negotiations were conducted on Mandela's behalf by his traditional sovereign, King Buyelekhaya Zwelibanzi Dalindyebo.[141] The paramount chief's grandfather was the regent Jongintaba Dalindyebo, who had arranged a marriage for Mandela, which he eluded by fleeing to Johannesburg in 1940.[19]"
I wanted to make the semi-bold suggestion here that the list of movies and television shows that mention Nelson Mandela in some way simply be cut. A good comparison would be Abraham Lincoln, a Good Article that features no such list. Some of this section is truly trivial: "In the BBC television sitcom Only Fools and Horses (1981–2003) the two main characters, Del Boy and Rodney Trotter live at flat 368 on the twelfth floor of the fictional Nelson Mandela House on the Dockside Estate, Peckham, London." The other aspect that motivates me to do a bit of cutting is that at 75kb, this article is a bit overlong per WP:PAGESIZE.
"He is held in deep respect within South Africa as the "Father of the Nation"" --this phrase is mentioned twice in the article, but still needs a citation. I don't doubt it, but can a citation be found and added? -- Khazar2 (talk) 05:12, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
I'll put it on my list, but no need for the brusqueness and snark when you're talking to an editor who's obviously actively revising [10]. Kind of ironic that you, too, would post here instead of sofixiting it, even after your Google search, no? But that's Wikipedia for you.
Anyway, I'm going to do a longer pass of the article today and will look for a good spot to add it in then if you haven't gotten to it first. -- Khazar2 (talk) 17:43, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
No worries. I'll find an appropriate source and a good spot to work it in later today. Thanks for being a watcher on this important page. -- Khazar2 (talk) 20:17, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
User:Midnightblueowl and I are making a push to revise this one a bit and try to bring it to Good Article status. MBO is doing some great work to better source details of NM's biography. I think the first step for me will be to boldly cut out some of the more minor details in the second half of the article to avoid an undue emphasis on recent events and trivia--television shows that have mentioned Mandela, streets named after him, etc. Since this is a highly trafficked article that presumably has a lot of editors, I'll try to keep track of any serious changes or deletions on this talk page, gathered under this thread. If you disagree with any of my cuts, of course, feel free to revert and I'll be glad to discuss. Looking forward to working with you all, -- Khazar2 (talk) 19:18, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Cut that he once signed a university green room wall and that a spider species is named after him, as these details seem quite minor to his overall biography.[11] Moved the spider species to List of awards and honours bestowed upon Nelson Mandela.
Removed a claim about dementia that appeared to lack a reliable source (and the source doesn't directly say dementia anyway).[12]
Removed a blockquote establishing that he appeared in a 2006 Olympics commercial; doesn't seem like a significant detail, particularly to describe at this length.[13] -- Khazar2 (talk) 19:26, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Greatly condensed the section on musical tributes to Mandela, listing artists but not song titles, histories, albums on which the songs appeared, track numbers, etc. For a figure of this magnitude, the fact that Nickelback once referenced him in a video seems quite trivial. Also cut out some information redundant with the Biography section about the birthday tribute concert, and removed trivial detail about what musical group played at his inauguration.[16] -- Khazar2 (talk) 21:11, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
I reduced the level of detail about his 2011 and 2012 hospitalizations (which hospitals, how he came and went, the day-to-day reporting, etc.)[19] -- Khazar2 (talk) 21:42, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Removed a full subsection devoted to a New Republic article criticizing Mandela. Searching Highbeam for this "controversy", it barely seems to register. I could be wrong, so this is one where others should certainly doublecheck me, but giving this one a dedicated subsection appears undue weight for a single critical op-ed only mentioned by a handful of other sources.[21]
I'll stop there for the day as I've already been a lot bolder than I at first intended to be! I'm happy to have you revert, or to self-revert, any of the above if you disagree, and then we can discuss. Thanks everybody, -- Khazar2 (talk) 22:01, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Reduced the lengthy discussion of Mandela's mediation in the Lockerbie affair.[22] While significant, it seems like undue weight to give this mediation almost as much article space as his long, world-famous imprisonment. -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Cut the non-notable individual in the car with him for one of his arrests
Cut discussion of why Amnesty International didn't name him a prisoner of conscience, sourced only to Amnesty International
Cut some detail on the many individuals he met and places he stopped in his 1962 overseas tour
Cut paragraph sourced only to Wikipedia mirror; it contained redundant information about his correspondence course, and a note about the 1981 London U Chancellor election.[23] -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:58, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Cut a discussion of Machel's bride price; this doesn't seem to be featured prominently even in sources about the wedding itself (which focused more on the surprise nature of the wedding), much less sources about Mandela generally, so it seems overdetailed to go into it here.[24] -- Khazar2 (talk) 15:09, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! MidnightBlueOwl deserves most of the credit, though; they've been doing a lot of research and sourcing for the recent improvements while I'm just wielding the knife. =) -- Khazar2 (talk) 21:10, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
By the way, the section "Ismail Ayob controversy" seems to have undue weight. That section has a messy edit history and I think it needs a lot of trimming. Zaian (talk) 19:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
I removed some information about omissions from the published biographies section that don't appear borne out in the given sources.[26] -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:35, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
I removed some criticism of George W. Bush's AIDS policy without citation. If anyone can find this, it's probably worth mentioning, but I had trouble turning it up via Google News or Highbeam.[27] -- Khazar2 (talk) 18:54, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
"No one nation should be complainant, prosecutor and judge" -- I'm concerned about the provenance of this quotation. It doesn't show up in a Google News archive search [29] outside of a 2004 op-ed and a 2008 Daily Observer article, 7 and 11 years after it was allegedly said. What do others think? I've flagged it as needing citation for now. It seems to me it could be cut without harm to the section, but thought I'd check in here first. -- Khazar2 (talk) 22:27, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
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Minor typo - In the Presidency of South Africa section it says "system,500 clinics", it should be "system, 500 clinics".
Xenyph (talk) 19:55, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Training as "privy councillor" in section: "Clarkebury, Healdtown and Fort Hare: 1936–1940"
Nelson mandela var utrolig kul — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.234.147.199 (talk) 13:12, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Could someone clear up why Mandela is described as training to be a "privy councillor" in the in section: "Clarkebury, Healdtown and Fort Hare: 1936–1940"? A "privy councillor" usually describes in Westminster parliamentary system, a member of Cabinet such as a Minister of the Crown (this might have happened later in his career as President, but as SA is a Republic, I doubt that the term Privy Councillor would have been used). Is this usage particular to South Africa? Namely does it refers to a different distinctly South African legal meaning like a lawyer? Or has someone mistakenly confused the term "privy councillor" for thing else, which case it should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.219.32 (talk) 04:09, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Just to clarify, at the time that Mandela was training at these institutions, South Africa was not actually a republic, but a dominion of the British Empire, thereby being subject to the British monarch (then George VI). It would only proclaim itself independent of the Empire following World War II, when Afrikaner nationalists took power of the country through the National Party; these white supremacists wanted to deepen apartheid rather than lessen it, as the British authorities desired. However, in this case the term "privy councillor" means something different; Mandela intended to be a privy councillor for Chief Jontintaba, a ruling royal within his native Transkei region. As across much of Sub-Saharan Africa to this day, local monarchies exert a level of control over the areas within their dominion, even if that area sits within a wider republican state; the most prominent example is perhaps the monarchical-governed Kingdom of Buganda, which exists within the constraints of the Republic of Uganda. I shall attempt to clarify this in the article, so thank you for bringing it to my attention. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:25, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
Not done The age will only be changed after he has reached his birthday, ie. on July 18. BejinhanTalk 11:54, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Could you be more specific in what you think should be added? Are you just saying we need to mention that the speeches happened? If so, in what part? Are the speeches particularly notable to Mandela? That is, we can't mention them here just because they are important to the story of Williamson; they should only be here if those speeches are considered to be important to the story of Mandela. Also, what information should we include? We certainly can't include the entire speeches (that would be done at Wikisource). Qwyrxian (talk) 02:44, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
Done Roger (talk) 16:06, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
![[2]](http://www.anc.org.za/images/people/nelsonm.jpg){kind=link}
![[7]](http://www.liberation.org.za/collections/anc/people/mandela/images/nelson.jpg){kind=link}
Not done If "OM" is included then the post nominals of all his other honours of comparable stature will also have to be included. There are too many, so per WP:POSTNOM it should not be done. All his significant honours are mentioned in Nelson Mandela#Orders and decorations and in fact there is a more comprehensive separate page listing them all at List of Nelson Mandela awards and honours. Roger (talk) 14:09, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
