Talk:Nelson Mandela/Archive 5

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Rumor of death by President Bush

Why does this keep getting edited out of the talk pages? I understand removing it from the article, but it seems that Zarian doen't even want discussion on the subject. Doesn't that go against the core purpose of the talk pages? Anyway here are a couple of sources of his comment: [1], [2], [3]--Art8641 15:39, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

False rumours of deaths are tasteless, if not defamatory. I deleted was someone saying "I'm sorry, but I trust the President of the United States more than Wikipedia's editors. Get on it" which seemed like blatant trolling to me. It's hardly worth discussing. One of your sources says it all: "It was about as close as Bush comes these days to making big news." Zaian 15:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

It is not a false rumor, Bush really DID say it. I am watching that video right this second, it really is Bush saying it (measure his earlobes if you don't believe me...) "Someone said to me, 'Where's Mandela?' Well, Mandela is dead! Because, Saddam Hussein killed all the Mandelas." There are other mentions of CNN incorrectly reporting his death, as well as a plot to kill mourners at a fake funeral. Because of this precedence, I think Bush telling people Mandela was killed by Saddam Hussein should be in here, especially if it is believed by people. If people believe what president Bush says, I think it is important for Wikipedia to try to help people know that Bush was wrong, or at least find out which Mandela he was talking about, maybe he wasn't referring to Nelson and his family. Or, if Nelson and his family really WERE killed by Saddam Hussein, help us who thought Bush was wrong by supplying dates and places this happened, there is no death date in his info box, that needs to be changed, Saddam Hussein was killed a while ago so Nelson had to have been killed a while before that. Billy Nair 16:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Ahem. It's just today's weird quote from Bush, and it didn't even make the South African news this evening. If anyone thinks Bush was declaring the actual death of Nelson Mandela, they didn't listen to or didn't understand the second half of the soundbite. It's a metaphor dudes... Zaian 18:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

You mean it made American news? The only place I ever heard it mentioned was The Daily Show (which is how I, like some other people probably, ended up here - I went, "Huh?") which intentionally omitted whatever may have come after the word "dead". Nualran 23:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

It would be a metaphor... if President Bush understood the subtler points of language which include (but are not limited to) metaphor. You can clearly see that President Bush must have thought Mandela was dead; he then pauses (perhaps looking at the faces of the reporters before him who must have given him a look of confusion or disgust) and realizes that Mandela is either not dead, or maybe dead but he is just uncertain. After figuring that out, he gives a very awkward "elboration" on his previous "quote" which makes no sense. If you were telling a friend a joke, you would NOT begin with "your mother is dead" (especially in such an emphatic tone) and then expect the friend to follow along with your joke. 71.40.160.154 22:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

This discussion is funny. I didn't think it would be some huge thing. That's great stuff. Mac OS X 00:09, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

president bush did not, in any way, shape or form, suggest that nelson mandela was dead... if you think that, then you are either stupid or misinformed... -Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.150.110 (talk) 06:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

...or deliberately misinterpreting the incident. Watch the video - he pauses for maybe half a second for effect, doesn't move his eyes, doesn't suddenly look uncertain, doesn't change tone, there's no uproar in the audience, and then he finishes the sentence. It's not an awkward recovery, it's what he intended to say, and it makes sense, although of course the first part was socially inept. The comment above that the Daily Show intentionally omitted whatever may have come after the word "dead" is the key one. Whatever you might think of Bush, this was just a poor choice of words - it was not Bush believing Mandela was dead. Zaian 06:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I actually saw it reported on the news first. I knew that the late night show circuit would have fun with it. I was surprised that CNN messed up at first. He said it in open press conference. The reporters were confused at first but then realized what he meant. Unfortunately, there were enough people that believed it that the Mandela foundation had to comment on the issue.[4]--Art8641 15:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Like others here, I, too, had to check this page to make sure Mr. Mandela was still alive after watching the bit on the Daily Show (09-20-2007). I find it amusing that there is already a section within this article that talks about CNN's mistake stating Nelson's death and yet, somehow, Bush's remarks are interpreted as something separate? I think they both should be mentioned hand in hand. 9ign 03:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. CNN's mistake was to report the death of Nelson Mandela as if it were fact. Bush's statement, as is clear to everybody who saw the full segment or read the transcript, was obviously referring to a metaphorical 'Mandela-like' figure within Iraq. Zaian is correct; the overwrought reaction of those who saw only the out-of-context Daily Show segment is irrelevant and non-notable, and therefore doesn't belong within this article. — Impi 14:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Have I got the wrong end of the stick, or is it the rumor that President Bush is the one who has kicked the bucket?Phase4 20:26, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

So, it's a no-go for project codename "Night of the Long Knives"/"Uhuru", then? Okay, I'll have to call back Themba's crew and explain this to them...

Actually, how widespread is the belief in this obvious urban myth? Is it an isolated internet phenomenon (and, by knowing it, proof that I need to get a life) or is it more widespread among the general Afrikaner public? Is it even worthy of mention in the article?

It's quite obvious from inappropriate and stereotypical names like Night of the long knives and Project Uhuru (a word from a language not spoken in South Africa) that someone seems to have invented this as a sick alarmist joke using crazy sounding names (Google for "Nag van die lang messe"), but, as with most urban myths (like the incredibly insulting claim that a large portion of South Africans believe that sex with virgins cures AIDS -- see snope.com), it relies on people not thinking clearly and rationally about it and speaking about it almost as if it's fashionable to do so (cf Oprah's plea -- the first time she was here to give presents to children -- to translate into "all the tribal languages" that sex with a virgin does not cure AIDS; I wonder which crazy right-wing fuckhead got to her first).

What do y'all think? Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 07:37, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The comment by President Bush that "Saddam Hussein killed all the Mandelas" is definetley noteworthy. Not including it is tantamount to pro-Bush censorship, and Wikipedia is not supposed to be censored. --RucasHost 15:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Nah, you'd have to look hard in SA to find a pro-Bush editor. It's trivia and doesn't belong on this page, period. Put it on the Bush page if anyone there cares about yesterday's news. Zaian 19:05, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a metaphor, and one that wasn't ambiguous in context. It _might_ belong on Wikiquote- it's completely irrelevant to Nelson Mandela- if there was a 'Nelson Mandela in popular culture' section, which would be innappropriate in this biography, it might be notable there. John Nevard 02:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

This version of the article shows a main pic that is way too big. BUt i can't see how we can shrink it a little. Further, it may actually be helpful to crop and shrink the pic. thoughts? --Merbabu 03:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello, is it correct to say "A young Nelson Mandela"? -- Jarash 16:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

pronunciation

I fixed the pronunciation to how my Xhosa teacher pronounced it (and yes, those are high tones, not stress), but I don't speak the language and it's been a long time, so it really should be verified by a native speaker. kwami 22:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a native speaker (I'm the next best thing) but I can confirm that your IPA was perfect -- including the high tones. Actually, now that I see your edit, I'm wondering why I didn't fix it earlier...

So, do English people really misinterpret the high tone on the li as a stress accent, or was that written by someone who didn't know enough about IPA? Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 06:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Some English respelling conventions use an acute accent to represent stress, so I thought someone might think I'd just written it wrong, and change it back. Also, most English speakers can't hear the difference. kwami 19:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protected

I've semi-protected this article, as there is daily anon vandalism and this article has had a track record of being a victim. Expires in six months. -- Fuzheado | Talk 00:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

It was vandalized again just now. Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sowikified (talk • contribs) 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The vandal seems to be Callie-hoon - is this person (not an adult I suspect) wrecking other pages too or just this one? Is there a way to see? TillyTeaDrinker (talk) 18:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism continues, yesterday this talk page was wiped out. Urgent call for semi-protected status! Michel Doortmont (talk) 08:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Terrorism?

Please accept this as a good faith question. I am by no means a critic of Nelson Mandela, but I'm concerned about the Category:Terrorists. According to the definitions, I would think Umkhonto we Sizwe (if nto the ANC) would qualify as a terrorist organization. In fact, the Umkhonto we Sizwe is already listed under the category of terrorism. If Mandela was a co-founder of that organization, what excludes this Mandela article from being included in the Category:Terrorists? Again, this is not a troll, or a criticism of Mandela. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 00:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

MK primarily carried out acts of sabotage in its early years when Mandela was involved; it was only later that attacks designed to kill were more widely used. Founding an organization that later (while not really a member) became a terrorist one, wouldn't really make the founder a terrorist. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 03:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Mandela was on the U.S. Terrorist List for a number of years, this can be fairly easily referenced. Saddam was on the list, then taken off during the Iraq/Iran War, then place back on the list by President Bush because of now unverifiable links to Al-Qaeda. I can offer those references if anyone is interested. Teetotaler 12 December, 2007

Nelson Mandela admits sanctioning various acts of terrorism (Including a bombing on church street in Pretoria) in his book "Long walk to freedom" If he admits to being a terrorist, how can anyone else deny it? Also, he was offered freedom in 1985 by P.W. Botha on the condition that he renounce violence. He refused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.203.54 (talk) 14:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Please give chapter and verse on where Mandela "admits to being a terrorist". In his autobiography, chapter 88, 3rd and 4th paragraphs, he describes the Church Street bombing, but he does not claim to have sanctioned the attack, which happened 19 years after he was imprisoned. Zaian (talk) 17:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The facts adduced by Teetotaler above indicate a fundamental problem here, which is that "terrorist" is a political designation in many circumstances that conflicts with NPOV.

Mandela positively embraced "the armed struggle," which he understood in defensive terms against the violence of the South African government in suppressing non-violent resistance in the 1950s and early 1960s, as well as the many continuing forms of violence that both supported apartheid and characterized its central social relationships. His 1985 refusal to accede to Botha's condition has to be seen in the context of the continuing violence of the South African state.

In some respects the interesting question about MK as the '80s wore on is less "was it terrorist" yes or no, but was the ANC leadership losing control of elements of MK who wanted to attack purely civilian targets, and how did it respond to violations of discipline and policy, and what are the responsibilities of a revolutionary organization in such circumstances. But I'd argue that presentation of arguments about those questions would belong in an article about MK or armed conflict in South Africa, not a biographical article on Mandela. Chris Lowe (talk) 01:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

"Ken Livingstone" spelt incorrectly near end of article.

Should have an 'e' on the end of his surname —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.52.162.226 (talk) 12:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks for pointing that out. Graham87 12:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Flagrant vandalism warranting removal?

Just above the further reading is the line: "He was also a racist bastard and would do anything to get back at the white man"

This should be removed, I suspect?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.43.17.100 (talk) 12:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was actually in a template, not the page itself. I reverted it. FlyingPenguin1 (talk) 16:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Mandela singing song about killing White People?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKiePbTcAfY&feature=related

Is it true or just but translation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cesarz (talk • contribs) 03:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Was Mandela Weak to have forgiven the Whites?

Is forgiveness a sign of weakness? My personal belief is that People like Mandela and Martin Luther King Jr. were weak people. Their people were too weak to combat the Whites and thats why there was this non-violent struggle against the Whites.99.229.163.64 (talk) 03:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

See the top of this page: "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Nelson Mandela article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." Zaian (talk) 06:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

11 July?

While Mandela was imprisoned, police arrested prominent ANC leaders on 11 July 1963, at Liliesleaf Farm, Rivonia, north of Johannesburg.

Shouln't it be "July 11" ? --68.209.96.214 (talk) 02:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)Mee.

"July 11" would be the a US preference; some other countries use "11 July". If you create a login, you can set your own date preferences, and all dates will display in that format. See Wikipedia:DATE#Dates. Zaian (talk) 06:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)