Talk:Neil Young

Proto-grunge

I went ahead and removed the "proto-grunge" genre. While he certainly may have had some influence on some grunge bands (such as Pearl Jam) and even recorded a grunge album with Pearl Jam, this does not make grunge one of his primary genres, especially since the Mirror Ball album appears to be his only work in the genre. Because of this, I removed the "proto-grunge" genre and left a note saying it should only be added back in if he records more grunge in the future, which is highly unlikely. If anyone can find evidence that Young had much more involvement in the grunge genre besides Mirror Ball and influencing grunge bands and has reliable sources to back it up, then by all means, add it back, but as of right now, I fail to see Neil Young as having involvement in the grunge genre outside of the Mirror Ball album and influencing a few grunge bands such as Pearl Jam. Moline1 (talk) 15:23, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm going to have to put my vote in to bring proto-grunge back, as there is literature referring to Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere, Rust Never Sleeps, and Ragged Glory as having proto-grunge elements. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 05:10, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Have the sources for it? I want to see them myself. They should also be credible. And let's not forget that grunge is made up of many genres besides hard rock, and includes genres such as heavy metal, something I don't see Neil Young as having ventured in on those albums. Nonetheless, if you have the sources, please do post them here. Also, do not add in the genre until a consensus can be reached (hopefully). Also, if we can reach a consensus that proto-grunge is appropriate here, then we should include a blurb with those sources on the grunge page, most likely in a section called proto-grunge, which would detail Younf as well as the other artists and bands that have been described as having elements of grunge before the full genre emerged in the mid-to-late-1980's. Moline1 (talk) 23:36, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree that there should be a distinction between grunge and proto-grunge. I don't think authors are saying that Neil Young is a grunge artist as much as they are using the term "proto-grunge" to describe grunge in its pre-natal form on display in his work with Crazy Horse (due to the synthesis of garage rock elements, low-fi production, cathartic lyrics, extended jam sessions, and grungy fashion all coming together to influence the eventual grunge movement). But again I agree that there is no point in calling Young a literal grunge artist, just that maybe "proto-grunge" is appropriate in the spirit the authors intend. So there's no big conflict, I would be good with either could work to either put it in the infobox, or to put it in more informally in the lead paragraph (or neither if that's the way the vote goes, I'm easy). And without further ado, here are some texts with authors that refer to Young in the context of proto-grunge. I don't know how many of them are academic, I just looked for a bunch.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Dixie_Lullaby/mor24CeBsGwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Neil+Young+proto-grunge&pg=PA90&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Neil_Young_Nation/3zzZBAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Neil+Young+proto-grunge&pg=PT144&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Exit_Music/0q9bTJp2Bi4C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Neil+Young+proto-grunge&pg=PT356&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Pearl_Jam_Eddie_Vedder/LB43DwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Neil+Young+proto-grunge&pg=PT189&printsec=frontcover

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Grown_Up_All_Wrong/EdN8VLiEZtcC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Neil+Young+proto-grunge&pg=PA468&printsec=frontcover

SweetTaylorJames (talk) 03:18, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

I looked through albums such as Ragged Glory and Rust Never Sleeps, and they are both described as grunge and proto-grunge with sources respectively. I am going to add back in the proto-grunge genre and "close" this discussion down since it is not needed and found evidence of more involvement in the grunge genre besides the Mirror Ball album and influencing his backing band for that album. I am also gonna update the grunge page to account for this as well. Moline1 (talk) 02:20, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good, thank you. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 08:11, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

For posterity's sake, in case this rather silly debate is ever considered by anyone in the future to be raised again, just Google "Grandfather of Grunge" and see what the effective consensus of the Internet is. 73.69.251.97 (talk) 04:06, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Canadian-American unnecessary

Let’s do the same procedure wiki does with so many other Canadian dual citizens such as Alanis Morissette, Celine Dion, Michael Bublé, Drake, Justin Bieber, Ryan Gosling, Ryan Reynolds, Barry Pepper, and Paul Anka the country that they were born grew up in would be in the lead, This is also the reason why American dual citizens such as Scarlett Johanson and Kirsten Dunst just have American in their respective leads. If this was a case like Anna Paquin who grew up in two countries than you can put the two citizenship in the lead but it isn’t that. Neil Young was born and grew up in Canada so only Canadian belongs in his lead if American was put in this would be a double standard and cause confusion to readers why people like Drake has just Canadian in his lead when Drake was an American from birth through his farther but Neil Young who only recently became a American has American in his lead let’s at least try and bring some sort of consistency to wiki articles. Black roses124 (talk) 16:27, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

@Black roses124: I've started a Request for Comment (https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Neil_Young#Request_for_comment)-- FMSky (talk) 16:44, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for starting the RfC. Young's citizenship has been the subject of quite a bit of misunderstanding at this article, which probably reflects misunderstanding in the real world. I think Canadian-American belongs in the lead as it's mentioned in the article. I don't think this would lead to any any " double standard" or necessarily cause any "confusion" to readers comparing this with other articles. I agree that consistency is a good idea, but there may be a similar case for one or more of the others to change. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:57, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Request for comment

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus was reached for "Canadian-American". FMSky (talk) 20:20, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

---

Should the lead sentence say "Canadian" or "Canadian-American"? FMSky (talk) 16:43, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

• Canadian-American, as that's a simple fact and it's mentioned quite a few times in the article lead and main body. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:59, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
• Not simply Canadian, (Summoned by bot) either Canadian-American - which is simplest, but incomplete or Canadian-born, Canadian-American dual citizen, or some vartiation thereof, which is fairly complete. In Young's case, his Canadian heritage/upbringing is relevant, but his having adopted US citizenship (for practical reasons one presumes) is simply factually accurate. Can someone confirm that he still holds both citizenships as I understood this was not always possible? Pincrete (talk) 06:05, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
• Canadian-American is most appropriate, although I would also accept Canadian-American dual citizen, as that is what the most recent reliable sources seem to identify him as. The other names mentioned in the talk section above seem to be primarily known for being Canadian, and despite having acquired dual citizenship, are still mostly known as being Canadian. Neil Young was pretty outspoken about wanting to have dual citizenship and has multiple reliable sources about it. I do not feel that this is a double standard, but rather applying the rule of what the sources state. Fieari (talk) 00:41, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
• Canadian-American makes sense, or some variation of that. I don't know a lot about the guidelines, but it makes sense given that beyond having citizenship in America, he has devoted himself to living in America and associating himself with America for most of his life, so it makes sense noting the duality more than someone from Canada who got dual-citizenship but who still lives in Canada/abroad. SweetTaylorJames (talk) 00:48, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
• Canadian-American - Some older sources identify him simply as Canadian, but I'm willing to bet that in the light of his dual-citizenship announcement that is going to change and Canadian-American will become the default. PraiseVivec (talk) 13:59, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
• Canadian-American He has American and Canadian citizenship.Tepkunset (talk) 14:26, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Forbes article on Young's use of GMO insulin

I recently added the following content:

Forbes accused Young of hypocrisy because he uses insulin which is made with GMOs.

User:Dumuzid removed the content, and commented, "strikes me as a non-notable opinion, with the typical modern Forbes issues."

What do others here think?

And by the way, I'd also like to point out this article from the Guardian, which is called, "Block on GM rice ‘has cost millions of lives and led to child blindness’"

I think this makes Young's hypocrisy highly notable.

But I also want to see what others here think of whether or not this should be included in the article.

Baxter329 (talk) 17:04, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi Baxter329, and thanks for coming here instead of edit warring. When I say "not notable," I mean in the Wikipedia sense. Forbes, in its current incarnation, is a bit of a hodgepodge; things said in it are not automatically as notable as they might be in the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, etc. I think this sort of opinion IS getting some traction in more notable places, and I will of course bow to consensus whatever it may be! Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:36, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

It's a Forbes Contributor, not Forbes staff. Forbes Contributors are unreliable and generally should not be used per WP:FORBESCON. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:54, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

What Hemiauchenia said - it's a contributor, we treat this more or less like a random blog. Trying to link the Guardian article to this issue would be WP:SYNTH. This is not how we compose BLPs. Girth Summit _(blether) 20:41, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Polio

Here is an explanation (by a doctor with polio herself) of how the song "Helpless" refers to Neil Young's polio http://nonprofits.accesscomm.ca/polio/Neil%20Young.html Also discussed on TWiV, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKruriG1qVQ?t=2842 --Nbauman (talk) 22:02, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Instruments to add: piano, organ, bass

Young plays piano frequently as listed on multiple studio albums with Buffalo Springfield, CSNY, and Graham Nash's "Songs for Beginners" album--among others, and his solo albums, as well as seen in numerous concert videos showing him playing it. The article reference him playing piano and includes a photo of him playing piano. He also plays organ and bass, per multiple studio album credits from said artists.

Genwicky (talk) 03:16, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Genwicky (talk) 03:19, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Secondary instruments are not listed in the infobox, they're meant to be brought up in the article body per Infobox musical artist - FlightTime (open channel) 03:42, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

What constitutes a primary vs. secondary instrument for a given musician? Piano is clearly a primary instrument for Neil Young. I understand organ and bass would not be primary instruments, but not piano. For example, here's what's listed as Instruments on Stephen Stills' wiki page: Vocals, guitar, bass guitar, keyboards, drums, percussion. Drums and percussion are not primary instruments for Stills Genwicky (talk) 19:08, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree that piano is a primary instruments, but organ and bass, maybe not. 80s Sam (talk) 09:38, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

POV, political views...

Taking a look at this article, it looks like his political views are mostly covered in the "Activism, Philanthropy and as a Humanitarian" section, which only covers stuff he's said and done post-2000. Conspicuously absent is any coverage of the statements he made in the 1980s, which ranged from very right wing to blatantly homophobic. As detailed in the Guardian:

"Politically-speaking, its hard to exorcise the ghost of his 1980s pronouncements, when he swung hard-right behind the Reagan presidency and lashed out at gays ("you go to the supermarket and you see a f**got behind the f***ing cash register, you don't want him to handle your potatoes") and welfare spongers. "Stop being supported by the government and get out and work," Neil advised. "You have to make the weak stand up on one leg, or half a leg, whatever they've got."" [1] (Note: The original guardian article didn't censor either of these F-words, but I had to put *** in the middle of them, for them not to be blocked by the filter.)

I'm not sure if there's been an intentional effort to santize his image here, but one could certainly get that impression based on these omissions.

I would recommend having a "Political Views" section, which would be more all-encompassing, and to keep this separate from "Philanthropy and as a Humanitarian" as to be more neutral in tone. -2003:A:502:E400:614B:80F6:BB4D:8DFE (talk) 12:36, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Those comments should definitely be included in the article. Popcornfud (talk) 13:27, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done Now added. A "Political views" section would definitely be a good thing, BTW. Popcornfud (talk) 12:07, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Powder Finger

No mention of one of Young's greatest songs in article! 2603:8000:5C3E:F21A:1830:A625:D120:7AC0 (talk) 21:20, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Disability Rhetorics

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 August 2022 and 12 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Other Friend, Different Hat (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Other Friend, Different Hat (talk) 02:52, 20 September 2022 (UTC)