Talk:List of national drinks

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	This article was accepted from this draft on 10 June 2019 by reviewer AngusWOOF (talk · contribs).

Moved from Talk:List of national liquors

– This is the correct venue. Rybkovich (talk) 21:10, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SEE other comments made by AngusWoof on the draft page Rybkovich (talk) 21:10, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is a Draft:National drinks in progress, but National drink has been redirected to List of national liquors since 2015. There's also verbiage added saying national liquor is different from national drink and points to National dish / drink section. So how should this be sorted out? AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:07, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@AngusWOOF:Thanks for your concern. I would start to address your concern by saying that national drinks can be non-alcoholic. Examples include Coca-Cola for the US, boba/bubble tead for Taiwan, mango lassi for India, Thai iced tea for Thailand, etc. Second, alcoholic national drinks are often mixed, like caipirinhas in Brazil. Caipirinhas do include the national liquor of rum (cachaca), but also include lime and sugar. The "List of national liquors" page only includes base liquors, and so I feel there's ample justification for creating a Draft:National drinks page. In some cases, though, the base liquor will be the same as the national drink, such as vodka in Russia. I think it's OK to have a little/some overlap between national liquors and national drinks. BrieDeChevre (talk) 20:12, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@AngusWOOF: You make a good point. I think we can put up national drinks and then redirect national drink to national drinks or we can take out national drink. I agree with @BrieDeChevre: that in the context of national drinks, the term "drink" often stands for non alcoholic beverages. Rybkovich (talk) 20:46, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

BrieDeChevre, are there websites or news articles of official national non-alcoholic/non-liquor drinks? Only official ones should be noted, not just what is popular. If it's going to be mostly liquors then it's going to be a content fork WP:CFORK of the liquored drinks, and then you might as well only list the non-liquored drinks in your table and rename it List of national non-liquor drinks. But as far as I see, they only list liquors, like these lists: [1] [2] [3] Business Insider has some non-alcoholic drinks [4] Food and Wine calls them officialish drinks [5] Daily Meal calls them "signature drinks" [6] So another option is to rename liquors to national drinks, and indicate which ones are non-alcoholic but classified as national. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 21:23, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@AngusWOOF: The references need not be specific lists. An article like the one at hand can cite sources that concern a specific drink, not a listing of several drinks. Is there a forum, that this issue can be addressed in? Specifically, one dealing with new article submissions. I don't see how the issue relates to this talk page. Thank you. Rybkovich (talk) 22:18, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rybkovich, I'll move this thread to the List of national liquors section. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 22:48, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The issue then becomes whether this is going to be a superset of national liquors, in that case, it is better to rename this to List of national drinks and cover both, or have two columns one for alcoholic and one for non-alcoholic or have non-alcoholic ones asterisked. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 23:58, 16 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@AngusWOOF: Thanks for your input and those were some good resources you found. The idea behind our page is to make a complement page to the National dish page. As you can see from that page it’s comprehensive and nearly every country has national dishes listed. For a lot of countries there isn’t a “declaration” that the dish is “officially” national. For instance, as far as I’m aware, the US doesn’t have a national declaration that the hamburger is a national dish. However, by many it’s understood to be that. The same might be said for pasta in Italy, sausages in Germany, pupusas in El Salvador, and jerk chicken in Jamaica.

Because there are often not official declarations for dishes or drinks there can be murky ground as to what’s considered national and different people can have different ideas sometimes. Editors of the pages will have to work it out in some/a decent amount of cases and hopefully over time there comes to be a consensus on dishes and drinks.

As you discovered, it is hard if not near impossible to find lists from online sources listing national drinks for nearly all countries out there, but that is why I think a Wikipedia page on the subject could be so valuable. Crucially, people in the Wikipedia community that have lived in different countries would make excellent resources as to what might be considered a national drink in their country. I feel confident that Coca-Cola is a national drink of the US because I have grown up here, traveled abroad, and read about the subject, but even with research I wouldn’t feel confident about many other countries because I haven’t grown up those places.

The List of national liquors page is just a list of hard liquors and nothing else. For instance, for Brazil, only “cachaca (sugarcane)” is listed. But Caipirinha are widely understood to be the national drink, not cachaca. Caipirinhas are composed of cachaca, but lime and sugar as well. That is why I think there can be a clear distinction between a national drink and a national liquor. Also, the List of national liquors doesn’t list beers, even though different types could be considered national drinks, like Heineken in the Netherlands and Guiness in Ireland.

I found another good resource for national drinks, many of which are non-alcoholic: [7]

In sum, I think a National drinks page would be a good complement to the National dish and List of national liquors pages. I think one National drinks page with 3 columns: non-alcoholic drinks, alcoholic drinks, and national liquors might have too much information to quickly scan through, and I'm not sure if a page really works with 3 columns. It seems to me that a National drinks and List of national liquors page are two distinct concepts deserving of their own pages. BrieDeChevre (talk) 00:33, 17 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It should still have some decent referencing to what makes it national as we are trying to minimize any hint of original research and interpretation by the Wikipedia editors. Chances are if two or more independent food and drink publishers are calling it a national drink, that's more likely to be a valid entry than the one where it's only mentioned by a random blog. Whether you want to make columns or not, depends on whether it's going to replace the liquors list as those who just want the liquors can then focus on the column. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 02:22, 17 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am unclear on the status of this discussion, have we agreed on having a separate national drink page which will have sufficient references for each drink on that list? Or are we thinking of having one national drinks page with a column for national liquors? I think the two pages should be separate. If not then we would eventually need a column for national beers and national wines. We currently have a national dishes page, would we want to add a column of national breads? If we do have a "national drinks" page we can reroute the "national drink" and have it now connect to "national drinks" instead of national liquor. Rybkovich (talk) 20:57, 17 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rybkovich, I would like to get more editors besides the drafting editor to chime on the necessity of such a list. But it should be simple as with National food or the List of national liquors, no detailed explanations on why it's national, unless it's really disputed. The references should be sufficient to justify listing. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 20:55, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@AngusWOOF: and @BrieDeChevre: because of the ongoing disagreement I have submitted it for a Third Opinion at Wikipedia:Third opinion#Active disagreements

Third opinion is only for when 2 editors are involved, and so I subitted our issue to dispute resolution (see below). BrieDeChevre (talk) 21:50, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dispute resolution

@AngusWOOF:@Rybkovich:Since we were sort of at a standstill in terms of how to move forward, I took the liberty of getting more opinions on the matter by going through the dispute resolution process Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Draft_talk:National_drinks. BrieDeChevre (talk) 21:49, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Categorizing the countries by geographic areas

@AngusWOOF: @Rybkovich: I think it’s important to categorize the countries by geographic areas (guided by United Nations groupings) because the page becomes much more interesting that way insofar as one can analyze the drinks in the context of geographic, political, and cultural patterns. If the countries are organized just by alphabet, one could find the country one had in mind, but would lose the larger context, context which I think is important to have. For instance, if the countries are arranged alphabetically one might not realize the fact that Muslim countries don’t drink much alcohol, that there’s a “vodka belt” in Slavic countries, that Chile and Peru both consider pisco sour to be their national drink, and so on.

I think that also brings up the fact that descriptions of the listings are often necessary, as in alcoholic/non alcoholic, or for Poland the vodka is often made out of potato unlike Russia where its almost always grains. Similarly re grapes in mediterranean/south european countries I'm curious if they are used for non alcoholic drinks, or other alcoholic drinks but not wine. None of this would be apparent, if the drinks were listed without descriptions. Rybkovich (talk) 07:04, 21 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Region or continent would be okay, then the alphabetical list would not be needed. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 17:32, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Irn-Bru

If Irn-Bru doesn't get a mention, I can see the Proposed second Scottish independence referendum coming swiftly.Bogger (talk) 12:19, 7 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Bogger: I added Irn-Bru as a national drink of Scotland, categorized under Great Britain. Thanks for the suggestion! BrieDeChevre (talk) 19:55, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Inclusion Criteria

Most of these entries are uncited or reference a single dubious source. What the is the inclusion criteria here? I hope this isn't a list of national drink according to Wikipedians. If a country has an official drink, (like how many states in the U.S. have an official state bird, flower, or gemstone) then we should probably list that (with an appropriate citation). For those without an official drink, it seems like we should be looking for a consensus among tour guide books, statements of national leaders, and other national press. Yilloslime (talk) 19:37, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]