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Talk:National Women's Day (Pakistan)

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Did you know nomination

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 03:12, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Created by Bookku (talk) assisted by SusunW. Self-nominated at 15:17, 15 April 2022 (UTC).[reply]

  • the article has one sentence on the subject of the National Women's Day in Pakistan, before another article starts about an event in 1983... which maybe deserves an article (and it is related) but this article is titled National Women's Day (Pakistan) and it should be about that. There is another article titled Aurat March which is also about (another) National Women's Day in Pakistan but that is not mentioned here. That article has a template about long essays. We do need a focussed article about either of the National Women's Days in Pakistan (or both) so it would be good to develop this to be about that subject. Victuallers (talk) 16:04, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Victuallers: Thanks for your comment and inputs.
Brief response: Encyclopedic coverage is ever ongoing and continuous process. I hope as and when as much as is covered in a new articles with ref let have scope of acceptability for DYKs.
Detail response:
All the below response is not to undermine value of your inputs which in any case I will take into account in my further updates of the articles still it is preferable to provide my own perception in detail enough to avoid misunderstanding from my side.
If you had noticed my own tag on the article Aurat March and my own response to users at talk page I am in process of updating it with academic sources may be even writing again from scratch if needed and that would be almost a yearlong process. Again it is part of over all women's Rights movement and Feminism so I can not progress without updating related articles either. Again (at leadership level) even liberal feminism in Pakistan is not as monolith as it seems from out side there are multiple layers though they do not speak of the differences as openly.
Though 1983 leadership and 2018 (Aurat March) leadership are in contact and support each other. Still there is a generational gap 1983 ones celebrating National women's day on 12 Feb Where as Aurat March is celebrated on International women's day with help of social media environment is called fourth wave feminism. Though Aurat March got more media attention due to catchy more assertive sloganeering and social media and TV media impact . 1983 leadership is active in their own way may be with lesser media attention but they are also reasonably covered in academia. And I will need to cover them while covering over all Feminism in Pakistan.
While collating sources for Feminism in Pakistan I realized 12th Feb observances are having so many reliable references and day is being frequently referred in academic sources that I can not proceed ahead without developing a special article for the same.
Again as you rightly pointed out National women's Day of 12 Feb yearly event needs further coverage in the article (enough sources are available for that) and while writing I had no other way but to cover 1983 event also in detail because that too is referred several times in various academic sources since being part of Pakistan's civic society and it's protest history.
Thanks and warm regards
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 18:21, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's what we/wiki have been doing for twenty years i.e. "expanding information"... in a random But structured way. We have the same goal. However the article in question has one sentence on the subject of the "National Women's Day in Pakistan". That is a significant problem. Maybe the title of the article needs to be changed?... or the article needs to address the title? Readers see there is a wiki article about National women's Day in Pakistan. (They don't know about the two different days you mention), they expect to be told a bit about Pakistan National women's Day(s). Maybe a few words about the history of how it started ... not the whole of the article about the day of its formation by Women's Action Forum. (Seems significant, but the Women's Action Forum article doesnt mention any of this.) I realise that its a huge subject but one title and a(n incomplete) article at a time will cover it eventually. Victuallers (talk) 21:46, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Still 95% not about National Women's Day (Pakistan). Victuallers (talk) 14:00, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've looked again and the split has happened and we now have two articles so I have suggested a combined new hook below. Maybe a third party might care to overcheck the new alt? Thanks to @SusunW: who has assisted here. @Bookku: - can you resolve the question about the Sindt government (and maybe cross link with Aurat Day where necessary). Victuallers (talk) 10:14, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Victuallers: ALT2 suggested by you seems better one. I was getting distracted in real life and have not been able pay kind of attention these two articles deserve, hoping to take out some good time to work on academic sources this week. Mean while I have changed that Sindh Government related statement may be that helps. For Khaibar Pakhtunwa related more info probably I will need to take help of WP Library exchange to find original source of the academic source I have referred. Thanks and warm regards
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 16:35, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Assuming the picker is happy with alt2 which is a combination of earlier hooks then we are good to go. Earwig shows some similarity but its due to noun phrases. Its neutral they are both long enough and they and the hook are reffed. They were new when nominated but the fork of the articles happened during the process above. Thanks Victuallers (talk) 14:10, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Victuallers, Bookku, SusunW, and SL93: further to the discussion here it seems there are more complex issues to discuss with regard to this hook, so I've sent it back here for further discussion. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 10:04, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am quite flexible on the writing style of DYK I do not have any issues from my side.
I wish to suggest and nominate this DYK for Special occasion holding area for 9th July or 31st July, if possible, those days being associated with mother of Pakistan Fatima Jinnah.
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 10:39, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
English is not my native language, any suitable changes in the article title writing style are okay to me, so I sought help @ WT:MOSCAPS, so the users in this discussion can focus on rest of the DYK formation. Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 04:14, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Amakuru and Victuallers: I have received a DYKHousekeepingBot message on my talk page saying " .. Your submission of Template:Did you know nominations/National Women's Day (Pakistan) at the Did You Know nominations page is not complete; if you would like to continue, please link the nomination to the nominations page as described in step 3 of the nomination procedure. .. ". Idk what does that mean and what I am supposed to do since I can not see 'step 3' on the help page Idk if I missed the same. Requesting your help in needful.
Meanwhile I have further updated the article 1983 women's march, Lahore with academic refs and will be doing so for 1 or 2 days more. May be couple of more DYK options too can become available. I will come back to this discussion once c/e is done for the updates. Thanks Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 00:46, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Bookku, when Amakuru reopened this nomination page, they forgot to retransclude the template on the DYK Nominations page, which is what caused the "incomplete DYK nomination" message; I have just done the retransclusion, so that should take care of the problem and make this page visible again on the Nominations page. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:53, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@BlueMoonset and Amakuru: As far as doubts raised by BlueMoonset here; now I have reasonably updated the article 1983 women's march, Lahore with academic sources (copy edit still to be done, and I will be updating more). While updating I cross checked again and we can reliably say that the controversial law of evidence (Qanoon-e-Shahadat) implemented by General Zia is still on the statute. Women had started their agitation at draft level of the law itself. Saying court can consider single woman's testimony equal at it's discretion means actually it is not equal. In financial matters that discretion too does not exist and again that comes from sacred scripture so can not be challenged without facing blasphemy allegations. You can refer to page Ayesha Khan 107, a literate woman's testimony/ signature gets lesser value than a illiterate man similar even in cases woman is expert in financial matters she has to go around searching for male signature even when they do not have expertise. To defuse domestic and international pressure what the then government seem to have used obfuscate language to deflect attention. But that does not change position for our purpose IMHO. Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 03:40, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Longer sentence versions
  • Shorter sentence versions

Please feel free to suggest / make appropriate changes. Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 02:41, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • New reviewer needed to review the hooks in light of this discussion and also do a quick check of the two articles; 1983 women's march, Lahore, at least, has been updated since the original review. I have unlinked "February 12" in various hooks—it isn't useful—and made sure the 1983 march is bolded since that article is also nominated here; I also corrected various links, and assigned ALT numbers to each hook. I don't think we should have single-article hooks (ALTs 8 and 9) since the ones given are so similar to each other. (I did strike the last two proposed single-article hooks; "gravely affected" is too vague.) Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:14, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Victuallers, Bookku, BlueMoonset, and Amakuru: The list of possible hooks above is long and many are similar. I've picked two that I think are the most 'hooky' and tightened the language a little. If no one objects, I would like to propose that the DYK move forward focusing on ALT5a and ALT6a. I would be willing to be the new reviewer: I hope that would be acceptable since I have made only minor rephrasings of the hooks. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 14:44, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mary Mark Ockerbloom: - impressed you are going to help Mary. The COI on the hooks is not an issue IMO - they have changed very little in weeks. Well done. Victuallers (talk) 15:05, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Victuallers, Bookku, BlueMoonset, and Amakuru:

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: None required.
Overall: I have reviewed both articles. I can confirm hooks ALT5a and ALT6a (Disclosure: I copied citations to existing sources when they needed to be added to a specific sentence.) I struck the other hooks as per the proposal above. A minor point: In the first sentence of National Women's Day (Pakistan), I would suggest changing the "the first women's march in Pakistan" to "the first women's march in Pakistan against the Zia regime" since that may more accurately reflect the source content, but I do not think this should hold up the nomination. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 00:50, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

National Working Women's Day refs

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Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 14:59, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

National Women's Day (Pakistan) Refs

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Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 15:24, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

About Aurat March

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Greetings @Victuallers:

  • ' .. The Day is four days after International Women's Day when the Aurat Marchs take place in Pakistan. .. '
    • The above sentence does not seem to match counting of days mathematically from Feb 12 to March 8
    • Though the National Women's Day precedes by 24 to 25 to Aurat March on 8th March still, for some unclear reasons (may be political? Idk if that is the reason) most sources do not seem to discuss these together. Until we get such a source, IMO, even a See also mentions would suffice.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 09:19, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks = happy for you to just change stuff. However who cares about the political motives of sources? Ignore them or you and I could be accused of bias. Victuallers (talk) 09:37, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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