Talk:Mychal Judge/Archive 1

Archive 1

Judge Act

I added a note that the Judge Act extends benefits to chaplains of police and fire departments. This is explained in the cited NYT article. As the article stands--mentioning an act named after him and describing it as extending benefits to same-sex couples--is quite confusing since there is no other indication in the article why such a law would be named after the subject. This talk pages mentions that the subject is thought in some circles to be homosexual, but the stated reason (NYT cite) for naming the Act after him is that it extends benefits to clergy named as beneficiaries.

There should also be reference to support that this is the first Act to extend benefits to same-sex couples. This is an act of general application, in that any named beneficiary (including same-sex domestic partners) can receive federal death benefits. Is it actually the case that there was never previously any act that allowed the testator to name anyone (not just spouse) as beneficiary.

2005 comments

A lot of this article was removed citing POVness [1]. Some of it is clearly not POV. anthony (see warning) 12:16, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I replaced "Father Mychal" because it appears to be general policy not to use certain (though not all) titles in articles. (We do not write "Mr Smith," "Sir John," etc.) The section about the "lifeless face of their beloved chaplain" is without doubt POV. The insertion of the former President's remarks seemed like an attempt to end-run the NPOV requirement. "Honorable death" is definitely POV. -- Emsworth 02:02, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Actually, from the Manual of Style [2]: "Similarly, if someone has been knighted they may be referred to as Sir Steve or Dame Judy". What I'd really like to know though is how a Roman Catholic priest can possibly be "openly gay"! -- Necrothesp 14:40, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You can be gay and celibate in Catholicism. Although openness is discouraged it happens. There are priests who openly keep mistresses as well.--T. Anthony 08:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Some of it was POV, I didn't touch those parts. I'm neutral on the "Father Mychal" references. I don't think they should be taken out, but I don't see much point in adding them back, either. But these sentences were removed even though they were clearly not POV.

It was while giving the holy sacrament to firefighter Daniel Suhr that Father Mychal removed his helmet and was struck by falling debris. He continued administering last rites even while injured. Father Mychal then entered the lobby of the World Trade Center north tower where an emergency services command post was organized. The south tower collapsed and debris filled the north tower lobby killing many inside.

Also an attributed quote by Clinton was removed. There were other parts which were likewise not POV. Some of the removed text was POV, but much of it wasn't. Here are the restorations I made. anthony (see warning) 16:54, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

His title was Father, and to address a priest by his first name is disrespectful. In the same way that you wouldn't refer to the Queen of England as Elizabeth. 88.110.7.28 11:51, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Must be a policy thing. Padre Pio is called "Pio of Pietrelcina", I assume, to avoid using words like "Father" or "Padre."... Although I assumed wrongly I see. The change is because that's what he's called on the canonization papers. Kooky.--T. Anthony 08:09, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Anon cleanup comments

I have removed the following (by 66.30.225.99 (talk)) as it does not belong in the article, but in deference to its spirit I have added {{cleanup-date}}.

This article needs attention. The NYT article linked here says Judge did not die from a jumper, and did not die while administering last rites. A myth. Still, he had been giving last rites just before. The text:

Early news accounts, repeated even recently, said that debris killed Father Judge as he was administering last rites to a firefighter who had been killed by a falling body.

The story was close. Father Judge did indeed anoint the firefighter, Daniel Suhr, said the firefighter's widow, Nancy. But then he went back into the lobby of the north tower, she said witnesses told her, and was killed by falling material inside when the south tower collapsed. Witnesses and videotape recorded inside the lobby confirmed that he died there and not while giving last rites. Some firefighters speculated that he died of a heart attack, but Brian Mulheren, a retired New York City police detective who attended the autopsy, said Father Judge died of blunt trauma to the back of the head.

Mrs. Suhr said that friends suggested she correct the anointing story. I said, 'Listen, Father Judge is a priest and people need to hold onto that myth.' How wonderful does it sound that he died giving the last rites to a firefighter?

Father Duffy repeated the story at the funeral. He was talking to God, and he was helping someone, he said. Can you honestly think of a better way to die?

Hairy Dude 12:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

About his death

It says in the article that he was possibly killed by a falling victim. Do we know where he was when he was killed? In the French flimaker(s) documentary, it showed all the firemen scrambling up an escalator as the 2nd tower collapsed. Then after all was quiet they noticed Judge. So if he was inside (which he should've been) I doubt it was a falling/jumping victim.

So is he the 17th officially recorded victim or the first? It says both things in the article.

If you do a Google search on Judge, the story that he was hit by a jumper is pretty widespread. I think it needs to be acknowledged in the article -- if only to debunk it (but we need a source cited in any event). 23skidoo 03:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect information about Mychal's grave removed

Removed the text "A model of the World Trade Center cross was installed over his grave.". While there is a model of the World Trade Center cross at Graymoor -- which is in New York, up the Hudson from the city -- Mychal is buried (as the article says) at Totowa, N.J. There is no cross over his grave. I have a photo of his grave, if anyone would like to see it. Jim 21:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

hi what are you up to now

Father Mychal's membership of Dignity

I am removing the activist category because Diginity did not have a position on gay marriage until 2003, Judge died in 2001. Just because he was a member of the organization does not mean he would have agreed with everything the organization put out, even after he died. 75.3.23.157 00:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I have now reached my "three revert" limit on this article in the past 24 hours, and cannot revert it again until this evening or tomorrow. The argument that the anonymous editor is apparently making, that same-sex marriage = LGBT activism, is false. DignityUSA "works for respect and justice` for all lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) persons in the Catholic Church and the world through education, advocacy and support": it is an LGBT activist organisation, and active membership of it, without evidence the other way, strongly implies that the member is an LGBT activist. This is especially true for a priest who joins DignityUSA, unlike a lay Catholic, as the organisation is not a recognized entity within the Catholic Church because of its stance in opposition to Catholic teachings on homosexuality. Yonmei 07:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, Yonmei, active membership in the Roman Catholic priesthood would mean opposition to gay rights. Your logic is flawed.

He could have just been in the organization to minister to those people or as a support group. You have no source with a statement from the father that says what reasons he was in the organization for. 75.3.23.157 16:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

---

I think it's quite clear that Father Mychal F. Judge was an LGBT rights activist, and because this has been disputed, I am laying out the evidence for it here. He was a longtime member of DignityUSA. As 75.3.23.157 has reminded us, for a priest - gay or straight - to support Dignity's Statement of Position & Purpose, especially the second paragraph, is intrinsically an activist position.

The history archives at Dignity's website make clear that this Position & Purpose has been part of the Statement since May 1970 (and also recount Dignity's history as an activist organisation aimed at changing the Catholic church's position on gay people). ("We believe that homosexuality is a natural variation on the use of sex. It implies no sickness or immorality. Those with such sexual orientation have a natural right to use their power of sex in a way that is both responsible and fulfilling.... and should use it with a sense of pride."

(Also, an example of Dignity activism in early 2001)

The section on the 2000s includes a mention of Mychal F. Judge as a "longtime member of Dignity".

For a gay priest to be a member of Dignity means he was an activist: his field of activism was changing the Catholic church's current attitude towards LGBT people.

I have therefore reverted the category LGBT rights activist, as it was before 75.3.23.157 removed it.Yonmei 00:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

That argument doesn't work, you aren't arguing about Mychal Judge, you are just giving facts about the organization, but not Mychal Judge.

All the facts you are giving apply to the organization.

Membership in an organization does not make a person an activist. Ted Kennedy is in the Knights of Columbus, should he be classified as a Pro-life activist? According to your logic. Yes!

Mychal Judge has no history of public activism, he never made any statements regarding changing the Catholic's church current attidue towards LGBT people.

Yonmei, you have not provided any sources to qualify Mychal Judge as an activist, only the organization. He could have been a member of the organization for the support group aspect. 75.3.23.157 05:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, without any sources, you just attempting to connect two things together is original research, and that is not allowed on wikipedia. 75.3.23.157 05:32, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

75.3.23.157, you have not shown any evidence that Father Mychal F. Judge opposed the position and purpose of DignityUSA. Just as you could argue, if Ted Kennedy were a member of Human Life International, that showed that he was a pro-life politician unless his actions/speech were to prove otherwise.

Further, there are direct accounts from The Life of Father Mychal that describe him working for gay rights issues without publicity. I am aware that this is a matter of strong feeling for you, which has resulted in your vandalising other wiki pages to "make a point" and in personal attacks on me in my Talk page and in summaries of your edits, and indeed seems to have led to your describing Wikipedia itself as an "anti-Catholic website". I suggest that it is a matter of such strong feeling to you that you are not capable of weighing the evidence fairly, and you need to step away from the issue. Yonmei 07:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Yonmei, you have not been able to provide any evidence he supported all the positions of Dignity, the burden is not on me to provide facts that he didn't feel someway, the burden is on you provide the facts since you are the making the asseration.

Also, as I said before, you just trying to assume Mychal Judge is basically original research, that is not allowed on wikipedia.

Also, you tell me to step away, but why don't you step away? You are trying to promote a pro-gay agenda and are clearly not concerned about whether you have facts or not. 75.3.23.157 14:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The burden is on you to find facts, 75.3.23.157: so far you have failed to support your edits of this page with any facts at all. Please find a source asserting that Father Judge did not support Dignity's Position and Purpose to justify your latest edit. Yonmei 16:01, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Yonmei, you can not be serious. I am not the one trying to add content to the article without sources, you are the one doing that, and you need to leave it out until you get a source, and it can not be original research.

You have no idea how Wikipedia works, you don't add something to Wikipedia without a source and then when someone removes it tell them to prove it's not true, you have to provide a source for it to be included, which you have not done, you have only used original research. 75.3.23.157 23:43, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

For those curious, the statements in question are sourced within the article already. The anon user wishes to question the validity of the sources, but has clearly failed to present any viable reason to do so. CaveatLector^Talk 05:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

CaveatLector, there are no statements, there are no sources. Yonmei has is using original research. 75.3.23.157 01:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

It is very apparent that the statement is quoted and sourced on articles main page. (Note 2). CaveatLector^Talk 04:13, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The category debate

The main debate here is whether or not to include Mychal Judge in Category:LGBT rights activists or not, right? Well, it seems to me that this passage from the New York magazine article is evidence enough:

Back in the early eighties, Judge was one of the first members of the clergy to minister to young gay men with aids, doing their funeral Masses and consoling their partners and family members. He opened the doors of St. Francis of Assisi Church when Dignity, a gay Catholic organization, needed a home for its aids ministry, and he later ran an aids program at St. Francis. Last year, he marched in the first gay-inclusive St. Patrick's Day parade, which his friend Brendan Fay, a gay activist, organized in Queens.

Cardinal O'Connor wasn't exactly a fan. "I heard that if Mike got any money from the right wing," says McCourt, "he'd give it to the gay organizations. I don't know if that's true, but that's his humor, for sure." [3]

The problem that I see is that the article as it stands only says that Fr. Mychal was gay and celibate, and doesn't say anything one way or the other about his political actions in favor of LGBT rights. The answer, as I see it, is to incorporate the information from this quote, properly cited, into the article. Then the debate ceases to be about the interpretation of "what constitutes an activist", and returns to the subject of the article. If properly sourced information from a reliable source is in the article, questions of original research should evaporate.

I may attempt such an inclusion myself if I have time later; however, I'm concerned that having too much emphasis on Fr. Mychal's sexuality may constitute undue weight. The New York article would seem to indicate that his sexual orientation was part of Fr. Mychal's identity, but not the sum of it, and probably not as important as his identification as a recovering alcoholic. Whoever incorporates this information (whether it's me or someone else) should take care to present it as part of a balanced portrait of Judge's life and work. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:38, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

When the inclusion of Fr. Judge in the LGBT Rights Activists category was challenged, I did some link-clicking, discovered he was a long-time member of Dignity (and that at least one Catholic gay man says that Fr. Judge helped him to come out) and established that Dignity's primary "position and purpose" has been about the same since 1970 - to change the Catholic church's attitude to homosexuality. To me, when a Catholic priest makes that kind of statement - by joining Dignity, by publicly standing up for Dignity - that makes him a LGBT rights activist, whether or not he was himself gay. I think that mentioning his long-term membership of DignityUSA (with a ref link to the New York Metro article mentioned above) would be sufficient.

I agree that we don't want to overbalance the article with too much about Fr Judge as an LGBT Rights activist, but we probably need at least one sentence tucked in somewhere. Yonmei 08:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay that is something, sorry for the earlier thing above. I'm still tempted to think he was simply supportive the way he was to recovering alcoholics like himself, but I guess that isn't the reality. In any event it does make him poor as a priest, there's absolutely no getting around that even if one desperately needs there to be, and that likely made it hard to take. If you don't like that it does well I don't know what to tell you. The Church and the majority of American Catholics would agree that it's bad for priests to be LGBT activists.(Pew[4] indicates 64% of American Catholics consider homosexuality a sin, this is much higher than they do for euthenasia, and other polls indicate they oppose openly gay clergymen.) That this makes one a bad priest, by most standards including the faith's, was understood in his lifetime. So for Catholics like me it is/was, I had heard it for years, a difficult adjustment. We had/have to stop thinking of him as a good priest and start thinking of him as a noble gay man who happened to have been ordained.(And I know this is going to invite a bunch of angry responses, but if any such responses land at my talk page I will delete them unread)--T. Anthony 09:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for joining the discussion, T.Anthony. (Apologies for rearranging the Talk page a bit - I wanted to make it more clear where the discussion was going.)

I was quite aware, even before this page was being vandalized by an anonymous editor, that Father Judge's status as a good priest, a good man, and a gay man would be contentious for many Catholics who do not believe that a gay man can be a good priest.

I think that if this fact can be incorporated properly into the article it could be a useful contribution, and might make it possible to make clear why Father Mychal Judge was so covert about his LGBT activism - not only because many of the firefighters he worked with would have been unable to accept his orientation, but also because as a Catholic priest, he had to be covert about supporting Dignity's Position and Purpose - because the reaction of many Catholics to discovering that he was gay, was to assert either that he couldn't have been gay because he was a good priest, or that because he was gay he couldn't have been a good priest.

It might be better to have a separate section in the main bio called "Controversy" - to outline Father Judge's membership of DignityUSA, quote the piece about his giving money to gay organizations that right-wing organizations had given him, and outline the mainstream Catholic confusion over a good gay priest. What do you think?Yonmei 14:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I know the way I said it might sound pretty prejudiced so I have to thank you for handling it in a calm manner. Personally I'm not with the current Pope entirely as I think a gay celibate priest can be a good priest. For me it's mostly the "activist" part that was hard to accept. Because, for me, LGBT activist implies that the priest isn't passively of a certain inclination or even compassionate to people of that inclination. It is saying the priest was actively against the faith on a matter of sexual morality it's held consistently for what most would say was its start.--T. Anthony 16:21, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, suffice to say that over the past thousand years at least, many Catholics - and many Catholic priests - have profoundly disagreed with Popes and with mainstream Catholic opinion, on matters much more important than whether a loving and faithful couple ought to be condemned to hell forever because they are of the same gender. (That there are much more important moral issues than whether or not to condemn loving and faithful couples is something I hope we would both agree on.)

Catholics who disagreed with the Pope and with mainstream Catholicism may have been bad Catholics for their time, but then some of them were later canonized by the Catholic church, so obviously the Catholic church as an institution can and does change its views, however unlikely that may seem to most Catholics at the time. A priest who challenges mainstream Catholic thinking on homosexuality may, in the 21st century, be regarded as a bad priest: but who knows what the Church will think in the 22nd century? Or the 30th?

I think that something under the heading "Controversy" would be useful: if I write a first draft, referencing his membership in Dignity and his support of gay groups, and what I understand to be the position of the Church, then you can edit it, and we'll see how that goes. I'll put the draft version on the Talk page for now. Yonmei 18:59, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I see I pushed you too far on the matter and now you're not being as friendly. The Catholic Church can clarify in a way Eastern Orthodoxy does not, but there are many things set very much set in stone. For centuries there have been priests with mistresses who avoided saying anything against concubinage. At times communication was too poor to do much about that, but the Church then or now does not accept that. For centuries there have been priests who were Pantheistic, but that will never be acceptable either. That a pantheistic man who lives with a woman can be heroic or kind is not anything I'm disputing. There are just things that the Church has consistently stated and those things do not change, at least not in the way I think you believe. The Church still does not allow remarriage after a divorce or pre-marital sex. The only real difference on sexuality I can think of is less condemnation and more emphasis on forgiveness for sexual misdeeds, but even those aspects were always there.--T. Anthony 22:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not a question of friendly or unfriendly. I understand what the Catholic church's official position is, but many good Catholics disagree with it - that's why Dignity exists. You support the Catholic church's official position, and so do many good Catholics - but all the verifiable evidence that has been found so far indicates that Father Mychal F. Judge did not support the Catholic church's official position on homosexuality. What we need as Wikipedians is to express: the Church's official position: the evidence that Judge opposed that position: the controversy that this engenders with Catholics - without expressing any opinion which side is right and which side is wrong. I've tried to do this in the section below, but I'd very much appreciate your input. Hopefully we can work through this to express the issue. I don't think we should argue any more about which is right and which is wrong: just try to get the positions down in a neutral way. Yonmei 08:40, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh I imagine you here will do fine. I was just, I don't know. I certainly don't want terms like good or bad in the article. Some kind of acknowledgment that being an LGBT activist and a priest simultaneously is usually considered contradictory would be enough. (Granting that a priest could be active against violence or mistreatment of LGBTs, while maintaining they should be celibate, and I don't think that'd be contradictory) I kind of doubt I'd do good at editing this much beyond that.--T. Anthony 16:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Draft: Controversy

Added this draft to the main article.

--- Okay, that's a draft. Edit away! Yonmei 19:17, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Opposing Views

Since the editors want to give a greater prominence to speculation that Judge was either homosexual or an advocate of opposition to the moral teaching of the Catholic Church, perhaps we need to balance that with commentary from others who deny he was homosexual or was not an advocate of opposition to the moral teaching of the Catholic Church. patsw 20:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that the fact that he was gay is now accepted beyond dispute: there is already a link in the list of external links to a protest made by one of Father Judge's friends who was not aware that Judge was gay before he died, and evidently does not wish to believe it now. There is no need to balance fact with uninformed speculation, though.

If you can find evidence that Judge did not in fact support the Position and Purpose of Dignity, despite being a long-term member and supporter - some public statement that Judge made against Dignity's position and in support of ecclesiastical authority against lesbian and gay relationships.

I agree that there should be some information (I have written a first draft above) about why Judge's membership of Dignity and his sexual orientation are controversial issues for some Catholics. Yonmei 20:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how you could characterize this as "now accepted beyond dispute". Many people close to Fr. Judge have insisted that he was not gay. This is what defines a dispute. Any characterization that he was or wasn't gay, celibate or non-celibate, is itself speculation, absent a declaration from Fr. Judge himself or other evidence beyond speculation.

If you can find evidence that Fr. Judge was an advocate of opposition to the moral teaching of the Catholic Church despite his being a Franciscan priest and having made solemn vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience to God, to the Church, and to his religious order, please add it to the article. patsw 18:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. Yonmei 18:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I would maintain from my reading about his that he was faithful to the Catholic Church and involved himself in Dignity because he felt he could be as Christ was among sinners and not among the righteous Pharisees. patsw 18:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

If in your reading you have found statements by Judge indicating that he opposed Dignity's Position and Purpose, that will be a valid addition to the article. Yonmei 18:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I also believe he maintained his own sexual orientation as a matter private to himself and God. patsw 18:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, since many people knew of his sexual orientation - referenced in the article - Judge did not keep his sexual orientation "private between himself and God". Yonmei 18:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, by hosting Dignity meetings and marching with the gay-friendly version of the St. Patrick's Day Parade, Judge clearly showed his opposition to the Church's official stance on homosexuality. I'd hazard that after prayer and contemplation, Judge concluded that opposing the Church's official teaching on this matter was consistent with his vows and conscience. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I think much of this discussion comes down to the meaning of the word "activist", and what level of activitism qualifies someone to be an activist. I think hosting Dignity and marching with in alternative St. Pat's Day parade demonstrates a willingness to stand with and advocate for the oppressed. In doing this, Mychal was doing no more than any Franciscan should do. The founder of the Franciscans, St. Francis of Assisi, cared for the lepers, in a time when leprosy had a definite moral taint. At the same time, Mychcal was "out" to only a few because he seems to have felt that it would compromise his ability to be an effective minister. We are, therefore, discussing a complex man. He was on the activist side on some things, but not willing to come out himself -- which I would think would be a very basic requirement to be labeled a "GBLT activist". Jim 19:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's not even a requirement to be LGBT to be an LGBT rights activist. As the LGBT rights activists category itself says, "inclusion in this category does not necessarily mean that a person is themselves lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgendered". Father Judge could have been a heterosexual member of Dignity - but we know from separate sources that he wasn't. What I believe is that without evidence that he opposed Dignity's position and purpose, his long-term membership of Dignity (and the evidence that he was willing to publicly oppose the church hierarchy's attitude to LGBT people) made him an LGBT activist whose field of activity was the Catholic Church. It is the definition of an activist, as well as a Franciscan, to stand with and advocate for an oppressed group. Yonmei 19:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

More POV

' It is hoped that the statue will be fully approved by the American Bishops and enthroned in the National Basilica to the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C." is clearly POV. I have removed it.Cross Reference 01:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Minor Editing

I've moved the two paragraphs regarding his being gay from “Mourning and Honors” to the “Controversy” section without changing any of the wording. The subject of these two paragraphs clearly fits in latter section better. This is a “minor edit” because it is a “rearranging of text without modifying content.” Also, I'm changing the link on footnote [3]. The old link, http://SaintMychal.com ceased to have anything to do with Fr. Mychal Judge in January, 2007. The new link, http://SaintMychalJudge.blogspot.com was begun by Franciscan friends of Fr. Mychal in March, 2007, to promote the cause of his sainthood. BroJohnFCR (talk) 17:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

REFERENCE changes are for cleanup and improvements. I eliminated one defunct link, “Our Lady of America” (formerly #6), and added three new links (new #4, 7, 13) to provide further documentation for information stated in the article. BroJohnFCR (talk) 00:14, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

External links

Most of these links appear to violate one or more of WP:EL' links to avoid. I have moved them here so the community can build consensus about which, if any, meet the guidelines. -- The Red Pen of Doom 02:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

external links

• Saint Mychal Judge
• A September 11th Hijacking
• DignityUSA Statement - September 14, 2001
• A Love Supreme, The Village Voice, October 10, 2001
• Fire Chaplain Becomes Larger Than Life, The New York Times, September 27, 2002
• Saint of 9/11 at IMDb
• OCCA church named in honor of Mychal Judge
• St Mychal Judge Old Catholic Church, Dallas Texas USA
• International Chaplains Association

discussion about appropriateness of links within external link guidelines

Six of these nine External links already appear in, or are repetitive of the References above. Another link is defunct (“A Love Supreme”), and another makes no reference to Fr. Mychal Judge (International Chaplains Assoc.). Therefore, I support eliminating all but one of these External links. The link to “Fire Chaplain Becomes Larger than Life,” (NY Times) should be kept because it is an excellent overview of the subject’s life which contains “information that could not be added to the article… due to amount of detail” (EL guidelines). For the same reasons, I’m also adding “The Happiest Man on Earth”. BroJohnFCR (talk) 23:45, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

An RTE Radio 1 documentary 'Victim No. 0001', September 3 2011, describes Mychal's life and work http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/radio-documentary-fr-mychal-judge-9-11.html an excellent overview of the subject’s life, for as long as it is maintained on the website cckkab (talk) 12:53, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

9-11 first victim versus first recorded victim

to the intro, i added 'on the ground' --judge gets popular credit as 'first' and was in bodybag #1. however air crew members were chronologically first 9-11 victims. it is a minor though major tweak. Cramyourspam (talk) 21:57, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Others died before Judge, but Judge was the first officially recorded victim of 9-11 because his was the first body to be recovered from the scene, and his was the first body taken to the Medical Examiner at Bellevue Hospital. For these reasons, his death certificate is numbered "Disater Manhattan-0001" (Daly: pp. 347-8). Thus it is most accurate to say that Judge was the "first RECORDED victim" of the attacks -- on the ground or in air. BroJohnFCR (talk) 00:39, 7 September, 2011 (UTC)

there was air-passenger cel phone talk with family and with authorities mentioning that one or another flight attendant had been stabbed. such mentions on 911 tapes are recorded. keeping the new phrase 'on the ground' does not change the meaning of your point. undoing the your revert.Cramyourspam (talk) 01:09, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Cel phone calls and 911 tapes are not OFFICIAL recordings (certifications) of death by a coroner. Judge was "the first officially recorded" victim of the 9-11 attacks on land or in air. BTW, this question was debated about five years ago and "first recorded victim" was the concensus then (though can't find the old archieve). BroJohnFCR (talk) , 02:34, 7 September, 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.203.31.225 (talk)

so the only authority at all ever for 'first' is a coroner? no way.

recorded documented phone call between flight purser Betty Ong and amer airlines command:

A.A. Oper. Center: Can you describe the person that you said, somebody is what in business class?

Betty Ong: I'm, I'm sitting in the back somebody's coming back from business, can you hold on for one second they're coming back.

A.A. Oper. Center: Sure.

(Ong is heard talking to another flight attendant aboard American 11)

Betty Ong: They want to know who stabbed who, do you know?

Flight Attendant: I don't know, but Karen and Barbara got stabbed. (Karen and Barbara are the two first/business class flight attendants who got stabbed)

Betty Ong: Okay.

that's from in-flight --before fr judge was struck and killed by debris of the building falling as a result of damage from the then-still-airborne jet. phrase 'on the ground' goes back in. it continues to not-undermine the point you make. there's also the obvious: air passengers dead upon impact. your continued removals are seeming troll-ish. Cramyourspam (talk) 05:50, 7 September 2011 (UTC)Cramyourspam (talk) 06:01, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

user brojohn' your sept 7 tweaks (certified, coroner) resolve it well. good job.Cramyourspam (talk) 17:26, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

and thank you for your contributions to help clarify this matter BroJohnFCR (talk) 23:50, 7 September, 2011 (UTC)

Name

Mychal F. Judge was born as "Robert Emmet Judge". According to [5] he took the religious name "Fallon Michael" and later changed "Michael" to "Mychal". At this point I'm confused. Why is his name now "Mychal F. Judge" instead of "Fallon Mychal Judge"? My second question is: Are there any other sources about his name? --Dandelo (talk) 09:25, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Question on RD. [6] --Usquam (talk) 13:15, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Judge took the religious name of ‘Fallon Michael’ when he took his first novice vows in 1955. According to Daly (p.30)*, he wanted just ‘Michael’ in honor of his late father, but there were already three Michaels in the province, and rules prohibited a fourth. However, later that same year, he requested and received permission to switch to ‘Michael Fallon’. He was known as Father ‘Michael F. Judge’ until 1986 when he changed the spelling to “Mychal” (p.81)*. *(Michael Daly: The Book of Mychal). I think this is all too much detail for the Wiki page, beyond the simple notation/addition I’ve made. BroJohnFCR (talk) 19:32, 10 September, 2011 (UTC)

According to Father Mychal Judge: an authentic American hero, p. 55 he switched ‘Fallon Michael’ to ‘Michael Fallon’ after the Second Vatican Council. --21:42, 10 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.1.195.217 (talk)

Daly's Book of Mychal is more reliable than Ford's Authentic American Hero on some details, because Daly had more access to records than Ford. In this case, Daly published Judge's actual 1955 letter to his superior requesting the name switch from 'Fallon Michael' to 'Michael Fallon' (Daly: p.31). BroJohnFCR (talk) 00:02, 11 September, 2011 (UTC)

According to Daly: he took "Fallon Michael" at his first vows in 1955 (p.30). He switched it to "Michael Fallon" later in 1955 (p.31). Then "He decided to drop the Fallon but keep the Michael" in 1967 (p.46). Then he changed the spelling to Mychal in 1986 (p.81). There is no evidence that he ever used Fallon after 1967, notwithstanding the Holy Name Province biography. Other Franciscan publications, notably his bio on the St. Francis of Assisi site (his home church and monastery) do not use the F initial, much less 'Fallon". His gravestone says "Rev. Mychal Judge, OFM". The full spelling of Fallon in his name is most inappropriate because he never used it after 1967. The use of the initial 'F' may be debatable because some others use it. BroJohnFCR (talk) 09:55, 13 September, 2013 (UTC)

The fact that he officially used Fallon as a middle name for over 10 years, and that it does show up in such official sites as his Province's renders its appearance of historical value. This is separate from what he routinely used in his life. The Wiki MOS indicates use of a person's full name should be given in the lead. If not specified, it will leave other people confused, as was I, as to what the name was. Daniel the Monk (talk) 19:24, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

The fact is that 'Fallon' WAS NOT HIS NAME, legally or religiously, for the last 34 years of his life. It ceased being his name when he dropped it in 1967. You cite only one source (HN Province) and it does NOT cite 'Fallon'; it only uses 'F' as a middle initial. A google search for "Mychal Fallon Judge" yields only one match -- your posting of it in this Wiki article. You cite no source, Franciscan or otherwise, which refers to "Mychal Fallon Judge". However, I'm suggesting a compromise by adding "(aka Michael Fallon Judge)", even though most Franciscan sources and his gravestone only refer to "Mychal Judge". BroJohnFCR (talk) 10:55, 13 September, 2013 (UTC)

I have to say that I'm not convinced with that reasoning about names. Just because people don't use one of their names regularly does not negate them. You also seem to underestimate the value of his own Province including a middle name for him. Clearly I had no idea what that initial stood for, so I had no way know what it was. I have no problem with the compromise offered, however. In that case, the lead should read "MJ (aka MFJ)", and the initial should also be removed from the infobox, where it was already listed before my editing.

By the way, if the description of his formation was taken directly from Daly, including his names, I am reluctant to accept its accuracy, as the description I found really muddled the formation process.

P.S. Wouldn't it have been better to wait for my response before implementing a "compromise"? Daniel the Monk (talk) 22:22, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

The only thing I'll repeat here is that neither the HN Province bio nor any other source refers to him as "Mychal Fallon Judge". However, the current article version, "Mychal Judge OFM (aka Michael Fallon Judge)", meets my concerns about his proper name, while acknowledging your concerns about his name historically from 1955- 1967.

Biographer Michael Daly was not only a close friend of Mychal Judge, but he was given access to all of Judge's papers by his sister and the friars. Daly most certainly covered all the details of Judge's formation and assignments in his book, even if the Wiki article presented only a simplified summary until you added more details. Pax et Bonum. BroJohnFCR (talk) 01:00, 14 September, 2013 (UTC)

Homosexuality

I really think that there are enough evidence that he was gay, like this link shows [7]. He was chaste but he also disagreed with the Catholic Church official doctrine on homosexuality. Someone could provide RS for this to be add to the article. While he was pro-life, I think Father Mychal Judge non-orthodox stance on homosexuality probably would be the major obstacle for any serious attempt for his beatification process to take place.128.65.232.111 (talk) 14:52, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

The question of Fr. Mychal Judge's gay orientation and self-identity was thoroughly debated and settled 6-8 years ago on these ages. A Wiki editor intervened then and affirmed this assertion based on all the evidence. The 11 Sept 2014 version which I've restored has been the consensus version for many years.

EDITOR ALERT: the changes made on 17 Sept 2014 are VANDALISM. One person with a POV, without refuting any of the facts presented in the footnotes, has unilaterally and arbitrarily wiped out the well documented consensus version of this section which has stood for many years. BroJohnFCR (talk) 01:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2015

Please change "Judge administered the Last Rites to some bodies lying on the streets" to "Judge prayed over some bodies lying on the streets." The sacraments are for the living and "Last Rites" implies a sacrament.

72.219.2.157 (talk) 07:18, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Done Stickee (talk) 02:47, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

More POV

' It is hoped that the statue will be fully approved by the American Bishops and enthroned in the National Basilica to the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C." is clearly POV. I have removed it.Cross Reference 01:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Minor Editing

I've moved the two paragraphs regarding his being gay from “Mourning and Honors” to the “Controversy” section without changing any of the wording. The subject of these two paragraphs clearly fits in latter section better. This is a “minor edit” because it is a “rearranging of text without modifying content.” Also, I'm changing the link on footnote [3]. The old link, http://SaintMychal.com ceased to have anything to do with Fr. Mychal Judge in January, 2007. The new link, http://SaintMychalJudge.blogspot.com was begun by Franciscan friends of Fr. Mychal in March, 2007, to promote the cause of his sainthood. BroJohnFCR (talk) 17:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

REFERENCE changes are for cleanup and improvements. I eliminated one defunct link, “Our Lady of America” (formerly #6), and added three new links (new #4, 7, 13) to provide further documentation for information stated in the article. BroJohnFCR (talk) 00:14, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

External links

Most of these links appear to violate one or more of WP:EL' links to avoid. I have moved them here so the community can build consensus about which, if any, meet the guidelines. -- The Red Pen of Doom 02:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

external links

• Saint Mychal Judge
• A September 11th Hijacking
• DignityUSA Statement - September 14, 2001
• A Love Supreme, The Village Voice, October 10, 2001
• Fire Chaplain Becomes Larger Than Life, The New York Times, September 27, 2002
• Saint of 9/11 at IMDb
• OCCA church named in honor of Mychal Judge
• St Mychal Judge Old Catholic Church, Dallas Texas USA
• International Chaplains Association

discussion about appropriateness of links within external link guidelines

Six of these nine External links already appear in, or are repetitive of the References above. Another link is defunct (“A Love Supreme”), and another makes no reference to Fr. Mychal Judge (International Chaplains Assoc.). Therefore, I support eliminating all but one of these External links. The link to “Fire Chaplain Becomes Larger than Life,” (NY Times) should be kept because it is an excellent overview of the subject’s life which contains “information that could not be added to the article… due to amount of detail” (EL guidelines). For the same reasons, I’m also adding “The Happiest Man on Earth”. BroJohnFCR (talk) 23:45, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

An RTE Radio 1 documentary 'Victim No. 0001', September 3 2011, describes Mychal's life and work http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/radio-documentary-fr-mychal-judge-9-11.html an excellent overview of the subject’s life, for as long as it is maintained on the website cckkab (talk) 12:53, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

9-11 first victim versus first recorded victim

to the intro, i added 'on the ground' --judge gets popular credit as 'first' and was in bodybag #1. however air crew members were chronologically first 9-11 victims. it is a minor though major tweak. Cramyourspam (talk) 21:57, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Others died before Judge, but Judge was the first officially recorded victim of 9-11 because his was the first body to be recovered from the scene, and his was the first body taken to the Medical Examiner at Bellevue Hospital. For these reasons, his death certificate is numbered "Disater Manhattan-0001" (Daly: pp. 347-8). Thus it is most accurate to say that Judge was the "first RECORDED victim" of the attacks -- on the ground or in air. BroJohnFCR (talk) 00:39, 7 September, 2011 (UTC)

there was air-passenger cel phone talk with family and with authorities mentioning that one or another flight attendant had been stabbed. such mentions on 911 tapes are recorded. keeping the new phrase 'on the ground' does not change the meaning of your point. undoing the your revert.Cramyourspam (talk) 01:09, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Cel phone calls and 911 tapes are not OFFICIAL recordings (certifications) of death by a coroner. Judge was "the first officially recorded" victim of the 9-11 attacks on land or in air. BTW, this question was debated about five years ago and "first recorded victim" was the concensus then (though can't find the old archieve). BroJohnFCR (talk) , 02:34, 7 September, 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.203.31.225 (talk)

so the only authority at all ever for 'first' is a coroner? no way.

recorded documented phone call between flight purser Betty Ong and amer airlines command:

A.A. Oper. Center: Can you describe the person that you said, somebody is what in business class?

Betty Ong: I'm, I'm sitting in the back somebody's coming back from business, can you hold on for one second they're coming back.

A.A. Oper. Center: Sure.

(Ong is heard talking to another flight attendant aboard American 11)

Betty Ong: They want to know who stabbed who, do you know?

Flight Attendant: I don't know, but Karen and Barbara got stabbed. (Karen and Barbara are the two first/business class flight attendants who got stabbed)

Betty Ong: Okay.

that's from in-flight --before fr judge was struck and killed by debris of the building falling as a result of damage from the then-still-airborne jet. phrase 'on the ground' goes back in. it continues to not-undermine the point you make. there's also the obvious: air passengers dead upon impact. your continued removals are seeming troll-ish. Cramyourspam (talk) 05:50, 7 September 2011 (UTC)Cramyourspam (talk) 06:01, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

user brojohn' your sept 7 tweaks (certified, coroner) resolve it well. good job.Cramyourspam (talk) 17:26, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

and thank you for your contributions to help clarify this matter BroJohnFCR (talk) 23:50, 7 September, 2011 (UTC)

Name

Mychal F. Judge was born as "Robert Emmet Judge". According to [8] he took the religious name "Fallon Michael" and later changed "Michael" to "Mychal". At this point I'm confused. Why is his name now "Mychal F. Judge" instead of "Fallon Mychal Judge"? My second question is: Are there any other sources about his name? --Dandelo (talk) 09:25, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Question on RD. [9] --Usquam (talk) 13:15, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Judge took the religious name of ‘Fallon Michael’ when he took his first novice vows in 1955. According to Daly (p.30)*, he wanted just ‘Michael’ in honor of his late father, but there were already three Michaels in the province, and rules prohibited a fourth. However, later that same year, he requested and received permission to switch to ‘Michael Fallon’. He was known as Father ‘Michael F. Judge’ until 1986 when he changed the spelling to “Mychal” (p.81)*. *(Michael Daly: The Book of Mychal). I think this is all too much detail for the Wiki page, beyond the simple notation/addition I’ve made. BroJohnFCR (talk) 19:32, 10 September, 2011 (UTC)

According to Father Mychal Judge: an authentic American hero, p. 55 he switched ‘Fallon Michael’ to ‘Michael Fallon’ after the Second Vatican Council. --21:42, 10 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.1.195.217 (talk)

Daly's Book of Mychal is more reliable than Ford's Authentic American Hero on some details, because Daly had more access to records than Ford. In this case, Daly published Judge's actual 1955 letter to his superior requesting the name switch from 'Fallon Michael' to 'Michael Fallon' (Daly: p.31). BroJohnFCR (talk) 00:02, 11 September, 2011 (UTC)

According to Daly: he took "Fallon Michael" at his first vows in 1955 (p.30). He switched it to "Michael Fallon" later in 1955 (p.31). Then "He decided to drop the Fallon but keep the Michael" in 1967 (p.46). Then he changed the spelling to Mychal in 1986 (p.81). There is no evidence that he ever used Fallon after 1967, notwithstanding the Holy Name Province biography. Other Franciscan publications, notably his bio on the St. Francis of Assisi site (his home church and monastery) do not use the F initial, much less 'Fallon". His gravestone says "Rev. Mychal Judge, OFM". The full spelling of Fallon in his name is most inappropriate because he never used it after 1967. The use of the initial 'F' may be debatable because some others use it. BroJohnFCR (talk) 09:55, 13 September, 2013 (UTC)

The fact that he officially used Fallon as a middle name for over 10 years, and that it does show up in such official sites as his Province's renders its appearance of historical value. This is separate from what he routinely used in his life. The Wiki MOS indicates use of a person's full name should be given in the lead. If not specified, it will leave other people confused, as was I, as to what the name was. Daniel the Monk (talk) 19:24, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

The fact is that 'Fallon' WAS NOT HIS NAME, legally or religiously, for the last 34 years of his life. It ceased being his name when he dropped it in 1967. You cite only one source (HN Province) and it does NOT cite 'Fallon'; it only uses 'F' as a middle initial. A google search for "Mychal Fallon Judge" yields only one match -- your posting of it in this Wiki article. You cite no source, Franciscan or otherwise, which refers to "Mychal Fallon Judge". However, I'm suggesting a compromise by adding "(aka Michael Fallon Judge)", even though most Franciscan sources and his gravestone only refer to "Mychal Judge". BroJohnFCR (talk) 10:55, 13 September, 2013 (UTC)

I have to say that I'm not convinced with that reasoning about names. Just because people don't use one of their names regularly does not negate them. You also seem to underestimate the value of his own Province including a middle name for him. Clearly I had no idea what that initial stood for, so I had no way know what it was. I have no problem with the compromise offered, however. In that case, the lead should read "MJ (aka MFJ)", and the initial should also be removed from the infobox, where it was already listed before my editing.

By the way, if the description of his formation was taken directly from Daly, including his names, I am reluctant to accept its accuracy, as the description I found really muddled the formation process.

P.S. Wouldn't it have been better to wait for my response before implementing a "compromise"? Daniel the Monk (talk) 22:22, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

The only thing I'll repeat here is that neither the HN Province bio nor any other source refers to him as "Mychal Fallon Judge". However, the current article version, "Mychal Judge OFM (aka Michael Fallon Judge)", meets my concerns about his proper name, while acknowledging your concerns about his name historically from 1955- 1967.

Biographer Michael Daly was not only a close friend of Mychal Judge, but he was given access to all of Judge's papers by his sister and the friars. Daly most certainly covered all the details of Judge's formation and assignments in his book, even if the Wiki article presented only a simplified summary until you added more details. Pax et Bonum. BroJohnFCR (talk) 01:00, 14 September, 2013 (UTC)

Homosexuality

I really think that there are enough evidence that he was gay, like this link shows [10]. He was chaste but he also disagreed with the Catholic Church official doctrine on homosexuality. Someone could provide RS for this to be add to the article. While he was pro-life, I think Father Mychal Judge non-orthodox stance on homosexuality probably would be the major obstacle for any serious attempt for his beatification process to take place.128.65.232.111 (talk) 14:52, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

The question of Fr. Mychal Judge's gay orientation and self-identity was thoroughly debated and settled 6-8 years ago on these ages. A Wiki editor intervened then and affirmed this assertion based on all the evidence. The 11 Sept 2014 version which I've restored has been the consensus version for many years.

EDITOR ALERT: the changes made on 17 Sept 2014 are VANDALISM. One person with a POV, without refuting any of the facts presented in the footnotes, has unilaterally and arbitrarily wiped out the well documented consensus version of this section which has stood for many years. BroJohnFCR (talk) 01:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2015

Please change "Judge administered the Last Rites to some bodies lying on the streets" to "Judge prayed over some bodies lying on the streets." The sacraments are for the living and "Last Rites" implies a sacrament.

72.219.2.157 (talk) 07:18, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Done Stickee (talk) 02:47, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Image

Why is there not image of Mychal Judge in this article? Since he is dead and there are not free images a fair use image could be used. S_peakF_ree ^(talk)_(contribs) 02:01, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I found some potential images from NPR, Huffington Post, etc., but the wording on WP:NFCI confuses me with regards to commercial opportunity. Since the images are from press agencies, in order to avoid the "automatic fail", does the image have to relate to the press agency, or to the subject of the image? I'm confused. RegistryKey^(RegEdit) 19:01, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Gay versus Homosexual

The vernacular term "gay and lesbian" is more commonly used by this group of people. "Homosexual orientation" is a narrower, semi-clinical description. Those "who felt" alienated (from church and society) implies that such people weren't objectively alienated, that they only "felt" alienated subjectively. The primary two sources cited in this Wiki article, Ford and Daley, use the term "gay," and treat their alienation from the church as an objective fact. BroJohnFCR (talk) 14:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC)BroJohnFCRBroJohnFCR (talk) 14:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC) 10:35 AM EST 24/03/2016

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Sexuality section contradicts itself

I have tagged the sexuality section for being self-contradictory. First, it describes Father Judge as a celibate priest who was gay by orientation rather than practice. It then goes on to cite a piece from The New York Times that stated that Father Judge had a romantic relationship with another man. (The NYT article adds that the two went away to a bed and breakfast together, and also quotes Father Judge as having stated in his diary that he lived two separate lives.) The section then ends by reiterating that Father Judge, by all indications, had been celibate. There are three sources listed for the proposition that Father Judge was celibate. One does not say that he was celibate, one is an article from The Advocate that I can only access a few sentences of, and one is a book that I don't have access to.

I am not sure what this all means. Is there a valid source stating that Father Judge was celibate? If so, how do we reconcile that source with the information about his partner? Is there a source that states that Father Judge's relationship with his partner was platonic? Or should the question of his celibacy not be addressed in the article at all? SunCrow (talk) 07:18, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

The Michael Daly biography of Judge, "The Book of Mychal", is the main source for both the story of the relationship with Alvarado and the statement that Judge remained celibate while in the relationship. I don't have a copy of the book handy, but there are a number of media reviews of the book that refer to this, including Kirkus Reviews which calls it an "illicit ongoing nonsexual love affair". His celibacy doesn't seem to be in question from any source I've read, and frankly, given the amount of press on this guy, if he'd had sexual relations with anyone, I would have expected it to come out by now, as it would have been considered a serious violation of his priesthood vows. TheBlinkster (talk) 11:28, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Template use

@Orangemike: your use of the template {{who}} on this article was inappropriate and I've reverted it. Per its documentation: This tag is for placement after attributions to vague "authorities" such as "serious scholars", "historians say", "some researchers", "many scientists", and the like. Just because the people mentioned in this article are non-notable and unknown to you, this does not mean you can question why they're mentioned in the article. Articles mention non-notable individuals all the time. No facts or assertions have been attributed to them; no weasel words are at play here. I've removed the WP:PEACOCK adjective "prominent" as also inappropriate. Elizium23 (talk) 23:44, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I tagged that particular name because an account claiming to be him has been doing vanity edits all over Wikipedia, trying to raise his own profile by association with Mychal Judge. --Orange Mike | Talk 12:05, 29 July 2022 (UTC)