Talk:Multiculturalism/Archive 2

POV Check Nomination

It seems there needs to be a NPOV check on this article. A lot of back & forth mini edit wars, esp on India. Shirulashem (talk) 16:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Paul Cliteur & request to archive discussion

There's an article on Paul Cliteur in the Dutch wiki, mentioned in this article. Any volunteer to translate the lead (a stub is always a good start)?

I'd like to archive the old posts of this talk (and rearrange the archived discussions so that each archive gets, say, 250 Kb). Any objections?

Oh yes: I did a little cleanup (the page was a mess). I agree with those editors who have proposed to split this long-winged page in shorter articles.

—Cesar Tort 16:28, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Done. For further archiving of this talk, Talk:Multiculturalism/Archive2 is now empty. —Cesar Tort 18:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Australia's Riot

There seems to be an extremely non-NPOV statement for Australia with a footnote that indicates nothing of what was said. The news article cited as footnote merely states that two lifeguards were suspected of being attacked by Lebanese groups and the anti-Arab reprisal attacks were allegedly led by white supremacist groups. The sentences appear to indicate that Arabs are all evil and white people are all awesome. I think that qualifies as non-NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.227.137.1 (talk) 16:30, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree that bit needs work. As long as the citation is left, I think a more balanced portrayal based on the source would be a big improvement. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:30, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Multiculturalism in contemporary Eastern societies

I believe there is some confusuon as to the exact nature of the term "multiculturalism". Many of the entries under this heading are not relaed to specific multicultural policies: multiculturalism and multiethnicity are two different subjects. I would not say, as a whole, that multiculturalism is particularly prevalent in the region, if fact, tthe opposite is most likely true.

Indeed, the entries for Japan and South Korea should be deleted, or moved to "Opposition to multiculturalism" at the very least. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.208.97 (talk) 08:23, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Lead Section completely useless

The lead section is useless. It says that "multiculturalism generally refers to a theory...that applies to...at the scale of...". But there's no actual definition of the theory!! I'd rather the section starts with "multiculturalism refers to the theory that ______ that applies to....". I will try to fix it for now, but I'd rather an editor review/check/update the definition I committed. I removed the sections on race/ethnicity because it seems self-evident that the term refers to cultural ideas, not racial or ethnic ones. I used the Cambridge dictionary definition of "multiculturalism" as "the existence of several cultures within a society". I understand the use of "divisions" might be taken as POV but.. I can't think of another term that says "preserving separate views between groups", which is what the Cambridge definition spells out. --76.20.62.213 (talk) 21:41, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Netherlands section POV

I tagged the section on the Netherlands for POV. Currently, it only discusses commentators who think that the multicultural model has failed (Fortuyn, Hirsi Ali, etc). This group is strong, but not uncontroversial. Some other positions should be mentioned as well. Princess Máxima for instance once stated that there is no such thing as Dutch identity (or Argentinian identity for that matter). She regards the whole discourse about the supremacy of Dutch identity as meaningless. Leaders of the Green Party and D66, and to a lesser extent PvdA (and maybe SP) have similar positions. These positions should be represented in the article as well. Wikipedia should try to represent moderate positions as well, even if they are more difficult to communicate. Jasy jatere (talk) 16:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Citations

Added citations box. In relation to the previous discussion topic, it's really very important, obviously, that this page has a lot of reputable citations, especially bearing in mind 9/10 statistics printed in newspapers on the issue of asylum or immigration are either negative or patent lies. Should probably request semi-protection lock as well. --Tomsega (talk) 01:40, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

"especially bearing in mind 9/10 statistics printed in newspapers on the issue of asylum or immigration are either negative or patent lies"

Seconded. 91.110.221.105 (talk) 20:48, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

"Canadian style multiculturalism"

Who says Australia has "Canadian style multiculturalism"? How can we prove that Canada doesn't have Australian style multiculturalism? Any citations? Can I delete it? Tommrtn^Talk 12:02, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Immigration to Norway

I've removed paragraphs relating to immigration to Norway several times (here and here). While the material is interesting, from what I can tell the sources cited don't explicitly connect the events and statistics mentioned with "multiculturalism". Therefore it would constitute original research to include that material in this article. Gabbe (talk) 09:45, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Multicultural is Different than Multiculturalism

Multicultural describes a person who has more than one culture in them (like me). So I don't understand why there isn't an article for that.

Multiculturalism is an idea-- I am not saying that it's a bad idea, but it's not the same as being multicultural.

So my point is, the term "multicultural" should not redirect here-- it should go to it's own article.

98.245.148.9 (talk) 02:55, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

this whole article is a diatribe

The whole article has a decidedly anti-mc tone. Supporters of the idea of multiculturalism should also be mentioned. The discussion of individual countries is by and large a summary of right wing parties' positions of those countries. While these positions exist and should be discussed, they should be counterbalanced by some voices from other parts of the political spectrum.

I am not too sure whether the section on Islam needs to be that long. One can mention the problem that Islam poses for multicultural societies, but this should not get undue weight. There is really more to Multiculturalism than the position of Islam in Europe. Jasy jatere (talk) 17:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

...agreed this has a decidedly negative tone and focus bias.07:45, 23 August 2009 (UTC)Keepwithfacts —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keepwithfacts (talk • contribs)

• I added the unbalanced tag to highlight these concerns. Now, whom do we get to help us out? Aristophanes68 (talk) 18:37, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Did you not read the title of the article? CRITICISM of multiculturalism. Do I need to explain more? There is already an entire page for multiculturalism. Gaius Octavius Princeps (talk) 22:41, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

???? Which talk page are you trying to post on? This *IS* the multiculturalism page.... Aristophanes68 (talk) 01:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. The support section is absolutely woeful. It could do with support from Kymlicka, Kukathas, Parekh or Waldron to name a few. Spectre at the Feast (talk) 02:17, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree as well. Especially in the bit about the US, there is a fairly negative tone. Drummerdg (talk) 07:35, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

• I've added a few pro-MC sources that I found via Google Books. If you find others, post them! Aristophanes68 (talk) 07:50, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

• I didn't notice the negative tone in the US section, but I did notice that there wasn't much discussion of the origins of modern (post WW2) multiculturalism; so I added some material in the US and Support for MC sections that fill in some of those gaps. Aristophanes68 (talk) 14:18, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Multiculturalism and Culture demise.

Article should better reflect that, Multiculturalism is the single most dangerous issue to any society. Historically, no country survived multiculturalism – today USA and many European countries struggle because of multiculturalism. Eventually, restrictions in the form of law are imposed on all cultures in order to coexist within single country. No one is really happy, it stifles creativity, creates animosity and eventually violent or non-violent (but deceptive) struggle for power begins. One has to remember that culture includes many aspects of live, not just the way some people cook. Culture includes religion, value of elderly, value of females, boundaries of behavior etc. and provides for stability in the region or country. Culture never changes (just appearances) unless the person is unaware of his/her roots (impossible if you are of different race, and major differences in culture are along racial lines: African, Asian, Middle-Eastern, European, South-American) No region should include more than 1% of any major culture or the world will stop being multicultural - USA is perfect example of multicultural blunder. Multiculturalism is like forced mutation - when you don't notice it (1%) is not an issue, when you notice it is bound to evoke emotion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.56.55.76 (talk) 09:06, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

That's an interesting argument. Bear in mind, however, that this is not a general discussion forum on the subject of multiculturalism (see WP:TALK and WP:NOTAFORUM). Is there any sourced content (per WP:V and WP:NOR) that you suggest should be added to the article? Gabbe (talk) 11:21, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree: what sources are being used here? Moreover, which definition of multiculturalism is being discussed here? It sounds to me like politically conservative B.S. Christianity, for instance, has thrived by becoming multicultural: in its medieval heyday, it combined five different strands of culture: Judaic, Greek, Roman, Celtic and Germanic. And now we see it thriving in Africa and Asia. Argument can also be made that the USA thrived under multiculturalism (see Crevecoeur). But I wonder which definition is being addressed here because, for better or for worse, the USA has in fact always been multicultural, from the time the first Africans were brought over as well as from the time the first treaties between colonies from different European countries were made. And as long as racism exists in the USA, then we have to acknowledge that people CREATE cultural division amongst themselves--blacks, Asians, Latinas/os aren't allowed to assimilate, therefore racism perpetuates a multicultural society. So I'd really like to see what "sources" are being mentioned by the above poster. Aristophanes68 (talk) 16:47, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

P.S.: "No region should include more than 1% of any major culture or the world will stop being multicultural - USA is perfect example of multicultural blunder." This sentence doesn't even make sense--it argues both FOR and AGAINST multiculturalism. And how does any region include no more of than 1% of any major culture?? That's not even possible, unless you have 101 different cultures in your region. Aristophanes68 (talk) 16:51, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

That first guy is spot on, and his views are being echoed in alot of western nations recently. If you want a source search the EDL. Also, this article is very pro-multiculturalism, it's like an advert for it and even the criticisms of it are poorly worded.124.181.71.136 (talk) 11:16, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Opposition section—mostly white folks?

Are there any non-white people claiming that multiculturalism is a bad thing? I know the main article mentions Dinesh D'Souza, but I have to wonder how much the opposition to multiculturalism—at least in Western countries—is a "white" thing. We need either to find minority voices expressing concern over multiculturalism, or we need to include critics from countries outside Western culture—say, from the "Eastern" (what a horrible name) countries mentioned in the article. Aristophanes68 (talk) 02:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

If you're talking about ethnic minorities in Western countries, then you would start by looking for them among the few nonwhite conservatives, such as Michelle Malkin. I think the inclusion of the so-called Eastern countries in this article is improper synthesis, because "multiculturalism" as a slogan and ideology (which is a Western thing) is different from simply having and respecting a diversity of cultures in a country. Quigley (talk) 04:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Opposition may be found in non white governments like with nations in China, India, the Middle East and Africa. In such cases they clearly do not embrace multicultural policy. Inside western nations multicultural policy may be said to be opposed by such communities as the Australian Aboriginal Community and Torres Straight Islanders. But in many cases those same peoples abroad and within may be sen to also embrace Multiculturalism by accepting aid packages or programs designed to help ethnically diverse peoples. In some cases it looks like multicultural support is dependent on money. Yet there are also places where ethnically diverse peoples meet in the spirit of multiculturalism and that has nothing to do with money. I don't think it is a white only thing, but I can see that that perception could be formed. DDB (talk) 01:36, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Also within Western Nations are the Muslim groups opposed to multiculturalism who [believe that Western democracies should be replaced by Islamic states]. -- Q Chris (talk) 16:57, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Obviously, I'm pro-multiculturalism, but for this article to be fair, we need to include as much variety in the anti-crowd as possible. Of course, quoting a Chinese government official against MC issues in China is like quoting a white American against MC issues in the USA; the idea of minorities speaking out against MC is more useful--e.g., Malkin or American Muslims. So it's not so much about the color of the speaker as it is about the minority status of the speaker. We need more anti-MC minority voices in this article.... Aristophanes68 (talk) 17:43, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Meaning and Origin

It is a widely expressed view in Australia that Al Grassby is the father of multiculturalism. That description means that Multiculturalism is a political tool in origin It would be good to know the etymology of the word and its application from within the article. It is used in Australia circa 1973. The article suggests a 1993 usage date which would be a world wide (and US Bill Clinton) thingy. There is talk of Canadian origins which would suggest it was a political tool of a left wing government there from the early '90s.

The word multiculture seems to be a misnomer in application to a person or people. A person is of one culture, although taking any of many ranges within that culture of expression. But cultural diversity is a wonderful thing worth celebrating if that is what is meant. But it comes back to the word and its origins, is it a political tool of the left to bludgeon anyone who disagrees with the prevalent view of the left? Or, is it an inexact description of a widely held desire for many peoples to peacefully coexist? I feel that the article would benefit from covering the issue without taking a political stance .. DDB (talk) 01:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

The term multiculturalism

The article, as it now stands, begins with an inaccurate statement, namely: "Multiculturalism has a number of different meanings". A more correct beginning would be "The word "multiculturalism" has a number of different meanings". But even that isn't a good way to start an article. Per WP:UMD, the purpose of this article should be to explain what multiculturalism is, not what the word "multiculturalism" means. I've tried to highlight this problem with the current lead in this edit.

I believe the lead would be much improved if we didn't attempt to cover all the possible different meanings of the word "multiculturalism". We should just focus on one meaning (such as, "the existence of several cultures within a society", which is what the rest of the article is primarily about) and say what that entails. Gabbe (talk) 07:31, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Given lack of discussion here, I've taken the liberty of rewriting the lead. Gabbe (talk) 09:01, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

David Cameron supports assimilation?

The linked article does not support the assertion that David Cameron supports assimilation to a mono-cultural society. It says that he thought that we should question whether certain organisations (and cultures?) supported universal human rights, even for those of other beliefs, and not support organisations that didn't. This seems to imply to me that organisations and cultures who do support human rights should be supported, or at least that he was not opposed to them. I see no evidence that he wants some sort of assimilation especially of, Jews, Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Hindus, and Buddhists and all groups who are prepared to accept the rights of others. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Given lack of discussion here, I've removed the statement in question. Gabbe (talk) 09:01, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

misplaced paragraph in United Kingdom section

The second paragraph in the United Kingdom section (which is nonetheless fairly well written and contains useful information) is out of place and likely should be merged with the general information on Europe and/or a new section: "In the Western English-speaking countries..."DRead (talk) 09:53, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

 Done -- Q Chris (talk) 09:55, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Quebec City immigrants

Why is a picture of people immigrating to a Canadian city listed under Australia? Quebec City is currently a Canadian city and it also a Canadian city at the time of the picture.(confederation in Canada was in 1867 picture is circa 1911) either the caption is wrong or the image needs to be moved. Tydoni (talk) 01:34, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

It wasn't placed under Australia. It was in fact placed in the Canada section, but the other photos were so big it was pushed down the page. I'll see if I can re-arrange those better, but I don't have much experience working with images in Wikipedia. Aristophanes68 (talk) 04:52, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I re-aligned the pics to make them fit better with the sections they most closely relate to. But I think we have too many pics in this section and we need either to remove some all together or to move some of them to other parts of the article. Thoughts? Aristophanes68 (talk) 05:17, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I was bold take a look...Moxy (talk) 05:35, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Multiculture

Multicultures isn`t a subject of the EUropean UNion ? I have trouble giving a straight refference but EP says subtitle of the movies is a multiculture friendly aspect.188.25.107.166 (talk) 06:32, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

4.7 Continental Europe : Ok this is very interesting to read;Do the people that wrote the following know any European history/geography or did they just make stuff up????

"Historically, Europe has always been polycultural—a mixture of Latin, Slavic, Germanic, Uralic and Celtic cultures influenced by the importation of Hebraic, Hellenic and Muslim belief systems; although the continent was supposedly unified by the super-position of Roman Catholic Christianity, it is accepted that geographic and cultural differences continued from antiquity into the modern age."
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Last time I checked my country Hellas (that's Greece...) was in Europe;also if I recall correctly Europe was a princess(of perhaps Phoenician origin) in Greek mythology;I think that it was us that more or less named the continent;you know at about the time we were the so called cradle of western-european civilisation....Need I continue???
So "the importation of Hellenic belief systems" and the lack of mentioning Hellenic (among other groups like Illyrians) culture in the mix is ,to say the least, funny/interesting.
Also for the millionth time -people it's getting really tiresome!!!!- people writing about Christianity SHOULD FIRST READ-STUDY CHRISTIAN HISTORY!!!!!!!!
A hint:It didn't start with Luther and before him it wasn't only the Catholics that were around...
To spell it out once more for many of you out there,the Roman Catholic Christianity was only dominant in Western Europe.Eastern Europe was-is predominantly Orthodox.This schism came to official existence only after 1054.And it is-was not the only one;there was-is a plethora of other ancient Christian denominations or sects or branches or whatever(some have survived to this day,some haven't) around...
Thanatos|talk 02:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Nobody has commented,replied or changed anything.So I went ahead with the edit:
/* Continental Europe */ added "Hellenic","Illyrian","Thracian" and "and other" to the culture mixture.Also deleted "Hellenic" from imported belief systems and replaced it with "Christian";also added "and other" to the latter.
The passage now reads:
"Historically, Europe has always been polycultural—a mixture of Latin, Slavic, Germanic, Uralic, Celtic, Hellenic, Illyrian, Thracian and other cultures influenced by the importation of Hebraic, Christian, Muslim and other belief systems; although the continent was supposedly unified by the super-position of Imperial Roman Christianity, it is accepted that geographic and cultural differences continued from antiquity into the modern age."
Didn't mention in the edit summary the change to Imperial Roman Christianity (from Catholic) cause there was no more space left(the system wouldn't accept more characters-word).
Thanatos|talk 23:12, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Why divided?

Why has this article been divided into eastern and western societies? Which is the source for this classification and what is an Eastern society anyway? I'm going to be bold and change this. Aaker (talk) 20:08, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

"Christian" societies is even worse, which is what it is now. Am going to be bold and change that.BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:07, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

birthrates, cultural decline

Maybe we should add some aspects of the European crisis? [No children, debts, they lost their culture..] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.121.5.145 (talk) 05:13, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

If you have any reliable sources describing this, feel free to add them to the article. Gabbe (talk) 06:23, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Israel

A section on multiculturalism in Israel would be interesting to read. Is anyone willing to write one? 83.7.155.201 (talk) 20:07, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

What about Pakistan?

Based on information collected from the Library of Congress, Pew Research Center, CIA World Factbook, Oxford University, University of Pennsylvania, U.S. State Department and others, the following is a list of estimations about the percentage of people professing different faiths in the country. These estimations vary considerably from source to source, depending on methods of research and databases that were used.

• Islam
  • Sunni: 80-95%
  • Shia: 5-20%

• Other religions
  • Christians: approx. 1.6% (2,800,000)
  • Hindus: approx. 1.6% (2,800,000)
  • Bahá'ís: 40,000 to 79,000
  • Sikhs: 20,000
  • Zoroastrian/Parsis: 1,600 to 20,000
  • Kalash: 3,000
• Ahmadi: approx. 1.42% (2,000,000) to 2.3% (4 million)

The most prevalent native languages appear in bold below, with the percentage of the population speaking them as their first language rounded to the nearest percentage point:

• Aer
• Badeshi
• Bagri
• Balochi (4%)
• Balti
• Bateri
• Bhadrawahi
• Brahui
• Brokskat
• Burig
• Burushaski
• Chambeali
• Changthang
• Chilliso
• Chitrali
• Dari

• Dameli
• Dehawri
• Dhakti
• Dogri
• Domaaki
• Gawar-Bati
• Ghera
• Goaria
• Gojri (Gujari)
• Gowro
• Gujarati
• Gurgula
• Hazaragi
• Hindko
• Jadgali
• Jandavra

As of 2005, 2.1% of the population of Pakistan had foreign origins, however the number of immigrants population in Pakistan recently grew sharply. Immigrants from South Asia make up a growing proportion of immigrants in Pakistan. The five largest immigrant groups in Pakistan are in turn Afghans, Bangladeshi, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Turkmens, Iranians, Indians, Sri Lankan, Burmese and Britons including a sizeable number of those of Pakistani origin. Other significant expatriate communities in the country are Armenians, Australians, Turks, Chinese, Americans, Filipinos, Bosnians and many others. Migrants from different countries of Arab world specially Egypt, Iraq, Palestine, Syria, Kuwait, Libya, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen are in thousands. Nearly all illegal migrants in Pakistan are Muslim refugees and they are accepted by the local population. There is no political support or legislation to deport these refugees from Pakistan.

There is no credible information available on illegal immigration in Pakistan; according to estimates there are over 5 million illegal immigrants in Pakistan, however according to the National Alien Registration Authority, there were an estimated 1.8 million illegal immigrants in Pakistan's commercial capital Karachi alone in 2004 out of 3.35 million illegal immigrants in Pakistan. The National Alien Registration Authority started registering illegal immigrants in the country in January 2002. Following the September 11 attacks, the Government of Pakistan ordered all the provincial governments to take serious action against illegal immigrants who entered the country after 2001, but decided to offer registration only to those immigrants who entered the country before December 2001. As of January 2010, the number of illegal immigrants in Karachi is estimated to be between 1.6 and 2 million people. Thousands of illegal immigrants from Afghanistan, Bangladesh, India, Burma, Sri Lanka, Iran, Iraq, Nigeria, Somalia, Jordan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzistan, Azerbaijan and from several other countries of Africa and the Middle East entered the country and are illegally living in Karachi, including thousands of Muslim students from Thailand, Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia illegally studying in the Pakistani madrasah while thousands of women from Bangladesh and Burma are working as maids and prostitutes there; most of them are illegal immigrants.

There are several ethnic groups in Karachi including Muhajirs (refugees from India), Punjabis, Pashtuns, Sindhis, Kashmiris, Seraikis, Balochis, Memons, Bohras, Ismailis, and others. Due to the conflicts in Afghanistan since 1979, a steady stream of Afghan refugees have also taken up residence in and around Karachi. They number about 50,000 as of 2009 and consist mainly of ethnic Pashtuns, followed by Tajiks and others. There are also hundreds of thousands of Arabs, Iranians, Turkish, Filipinos, Muslim Arakani refugees (from Rakhine State in Myanmar), Bosnians, Albanians, Polish, Lebaneses, Armenians, Goan, Bengalis and Africans immigrants who are also settled in Karachi. Most refugee minorities of the city live in poor neighbourhoods.The Pashtuns (Pakhtuns or Pathans), originally from Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, FATA and northern Balochistan, are now the city's second largest ethnic group in Karachi after Muhajirs. With as high as 7 million by some estimates, the city of Karachi in Pakistan has the largest concentration of urban Pakhtun population in the world, including 50,000 registered Afghan refugees in the city.. As per current demographic ratio Pashtuns are about 25% of Karachi's population.

According to the last official census of country which was held 1998, linguistic distribution of the city was: Urdu: 48.52%; Sindhi: 7.22%; Punjabi: 13.94%; Pashto: 11.42%; Balochi: 4.34%; Saraiki: 2.11%; others: 12.44%. The others include Dari, Gujarati, Dawoodi Bohra, Memon, Marwari, Brahui, Makrani, Khowar, Burushaski, Arabic, Persian and Bengali.

Rank	Language	1998 census	1981 census
1	Urdu	48.52%	54.34%
2	Punjabi	13.94%	13.64%
3	Pashto	11.42%	08.71%
4	Sindhi	07.22%	06.29%
5	Balochi	04.34%	04.39%
6	Saraiki	00.35%	02.11%
7	Others	12.44%	12.27%

According to a 1998 census of Pakistan, the religious breakdown of the city is as follows: Shia and Sunni Muslim (96.45%), Christian (2.42%), Hindu (0.86%), Ahmadi (0.17%) and other (0.10%). Other religious groups include Parsis, Sikhs, Bahai, Jews and Buddhists. Of the Muslims, approximately 65% are Sunnis and 30% are Shi'ites.

Stunned by Karachi's diverse demographics, the American political scientist and South Asia expert Stephen P. Cohen once stated that if Karachi's ethnic groups "got along well, it would be an amazingly complex city, a lot like New York."

216.58.16.251 (talk) 09:37, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

References

Ethnic diversity

Ethnic diversity redirects here, so I suppose this article is intended to also cover that subject. There is some research, see "E Pluribus Unum: Diversity and Community in the Twenty-first Century The 2006 Johan Skytte Prize Lecture" © 2007 Nordic Political Science Association. User:Fred Bauder Talk 11:37, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Wiley abstract. E Pluribus Unum: Diversity and Community in the Twenty-first Century The 2006 Johan Skytte Prize Lecture by Robert D. Putnam DOI: 10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x Scandinavian Political Studies, Volume 30, Issue 2, pages 137–174, June 2007. User:Fred Bauder Talk 11:49, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

This material is covered at Robert D. Putnam#Diversity and trust within communities User:Fred Bauder Talk 12:02, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

social capital User:Fred Bauder Talk 13:38, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

"Harvard Sociologist Says His Research Was ‘Twisted" User:Fred Bauder Talk 20:36, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I think there would be an explicit definition (if not a separate article) needed for ethnic diversity. I see multiculturalism as a policy or a philosophy (see eg. [3][4]) and ethnic diversity as a quality that is quantifiable and measurable in time and space.--Qtea (talk) 21:57, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

What about Saudi Arabia?

25% of saudi Arabia is foreign born. 216.58.16.251 (talk) 09:35, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Saudi Arabia is in fact one of the least tolerant countries for diversity of any kind - no place of worship except mosques, persecution of Shia, textbook controversy. Multiculturalism is not about WHO is in the country, but HOW they are treated Indiasummer95 (talk) 14:20, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Inappropriate to Merge with Multiculturalism

It is utterly inappropriate to merge the article for Interculturalism with that for Multiculturalism. The whole point of interculturalism is that it is distinct from multiculturalism. While multiculturalism prioritizes the preservation of cultures as separate but equal sub-groupings within society (for example - with parents raising children to continue their cultural beliefs and practices), interculturalism welcomes exchange and hybridization of cultures and values. It is not the intent of interculturalism to have "newcomers" assimilate into a dominant, matrix culture, or to have different cultures "melt" into one uniform culture. Rather, interculturalism aims to maintain a space in which individuals born into one culture are free and supported in picking in choosing elements from other cultures. While assimilationists might envision the children of Muslim immigrants to Quebec adopting christianity, and multiculturalists envision muslim parents raising muslim children, interculturalists envision a society where the children of Muslim parents grow up to be Bhuddists, and where the children of Jewish and Catholic parents adopt Islam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.49.6 (talk) 01:40, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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Religious diversity should not be a redirect here

Religious diversity seems like a specialized topic that should not simply redirect here. Sample ref: [5]. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:40, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Does multiculturalism mean equality of cultures?

Can we call "multicultural" a state/society with many cultures but with some of them dominant and others subdominant? We read in the article Ottoman Greece that "Ottoman Greece was a multiethnic and multicultural society". Multiethnic certainly it was, but multicultural? It is perfectly documented that the muslims/Turks were the dominant class and Christians and Jews had limited rights as "infidels". This social and legal status was based on the Quran, the only source of Law in the Ott. Emp. till about the mid 19th century. So, is "multiculturalism" justified here? The same question may apply to other cases, e.g. the apartheid South Africa, 18h c. North America etc. Thanks.--Skylax30 (talk) 15:29, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

No, mc does not mean the cultures are equal, so yes, you can use the term that way. Multiculturalism is more of an approach to multiethnic cultures--it attempts to embrace the diversity within cultures so as not to reinforce the dominant culture as being the "true" culture. I hope that helps. Aristophanes68 (talk) 15:40, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

What matters is what sources say. If they say 'multicultural' then we do. Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:42, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers. I haven't look much in the literature of MC but it seems that Aristophanes68's view is not in agreement with the lead of the article. It says "Multiculturalism is the cultural diversity ... and the policies that promote this diversity ". There are many ways to demonstrate that such policies do not exist in certain multiethnic societies. E.g., diversity includes the freedom of moving from one culture to the other. So, if we have an islamic regime like the Ott. Emp. where the person is free (if not forced) to convert from christian to muslim, but is punished with death if converts the other way around (see Neomartyrs), this is not a condition that "promotes diversity". Also, looking at a brief intro about MC in the "Stanford Encyclopedia" [6] I find that "Mere toleration of group differences is said to fall short of treating members of minority groups as equal citizens; recognition and positive accommodation of group differences are required ..." . In Ott. Emp. not only the status of "citizen" was irrelevant (at least before late 19th c.) but there was no equality between the subjects of sultan. Therefore, I find reasonable that claims of "multiculturalism" in states like this, must be based on reliable sources, as Dbrodbeck said. But for the sake of NPOV, opposite views must be reflected, too.--Skylax30 (talk) 08:50, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

As actually practiced, multiculturalism means "All cultures are equal except those that include educated white males." Ornithikos (talk) 15:30, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

¿Is this article about multi-culturalism, the plurality of languages and cultures within a nation native to it, or multi-ethnicity?

Let me give a few examples of different sections, India, the Philippines and Indonesia all speak about diversity about different lingual-cultural groups within the nations, while the part about the Netherlands speaks about different religions within the Netherlands and makes no mention about the large Javanese, other Indonesia, or American-African (Dutch Caribbean) populations and neither about Dutch minorities within the Netherlands with different languages and cultures (think about the Frisians, Lower-Saxons, and Limburgians), the part about Germany begins with immigration and different races and then goes about religion (note that indigenous Germans can also convert to Islam), and the general Continental European part is about multi-ethnic civilizations again and contains information about the acceptance of homosexuality and Islamic clothing styles. I understand that all of these can be considered multiculturalism by some definitions, but some examples fit more in the polyethnicity article while others are solely about religion. I don't oppose any of the content being in it, but this page could be organized in a wiser manner having separate sections about religion, ethnicity and other culture-related topics, or expand more on the different aspects discussed in each section for example having a part about the Netherlands about religions, one about ethnicities and one about native and non-native languages. Sincerely, --Namlong618 (talk) 12:41, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Bulgaria

I removed Bulgaria at all from the article, since this country does not represent the idea of multiculturalism, at least in the since most people would understand it. It does indeed have some minorities, most noteworthy Gypsies and Turks, but they are neither well accepted, nor in any way constitute a multicultural society there. Indeed, they represent much more separated and isolated as well as greatly marginalised groups. In any case the country is not in any way more multicultural or tolerant towards coexisting different cultures than any other country with some minorities. The fact, that some Bulgarians tend to consider that to be otherwise and to be "proud" of it, does not matter. Therefore I warn any Bulgarian editors, who would try to revert the changes, that their efforts will be in vain. --Kreuzkümmel (talk) 22:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

contradictory?

I o not believe in this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:6:4C80:4E6:8D12:512:93BC:29E1 (talk) 17:07, 22 March 2015 (UTC) According to the article, multiculturalism "...encourages [immigrant] communities to participate fully in society by enhancing their level of economic, social, and cultural integration into the host culture(s)." That sounds like assimilation to me, not multiculturalism! 76.64.133.131 (talk) 00:19, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I think the idea, I'm no expert, is that multiculturalism encourages people with an ethnic background to maintain their culture AND also integrate into national life. For example, Hispanics who continue to maintain and celebrate their culture and language in the United States should not suffer a diminution in status because of that, nor should any other ethnic group. User:Fred Bauder Talk 12:13, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

"Ethnic" background ? Everyone has a ethnic background. You should clarify what you are trying to say. 107.222.205.242 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:23, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Clarify? A jew liberal cannot do that my friend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.170.51.191 (talk) 09:56, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Transaction Costs of Multiculturalism

From Economics, to Von Clausewitz's "friction", to "I'm OK You're OK", there are transaction costs for interacting with others. Where there is great homogeneity there are lower transaction costs due to the universal acceptance of established norms. In Japan, where everybody looks, acts, and speaks alike they can devote their efforts toward quickly developing consensus and achieving results within a shared context. They can rely upon a common understanding without having to "build the ladder as they climb" with each and every generation. Social data on education, crime rates, longevity, etc. show a more stable social structure. Elsewhere, diverse populations are restive and suppressed. Aspirations and high expectations are well and good, but if everybody were Mother Teresa, there would be no need for "Mother Teresa". To motivate individuals toward the extraordinary effort required to maintain an amicable mixed society, commensurate inducements and incentives must be offered. Prosperity eases friction. A wealthy multicultural country such as Switzerland can be quite successful. Alfred Cook alcook54@yahoo.com

96.226.21.250 (talk) 21:13, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

ethnicities

This wikipedia page is an okay source for information on multiculturalism, but it doesn't grasp the concept and explain it enough. It broadens the term to include religion, gay/lesbian, and disabled people. While there is nothing wrong with being a religious, disabled lesbian, that is not what multiculturalism is about; multiculturalism is about the converging of different ethnicities. Additionally, it has no section on these three types of people. If there is going to be an attempt to include these groups of people, why not write a section on it and explain how they can be included under the title of “multicultural”. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.174.139.213 (talk) 08:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

"immigration from different jurisdictions around the world (e.g. Australia,..."

To what extent is there much or any from Australia? Much for many decades from much smaller New Zealand, but,....? Masalai (talk) 07:23, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Interwar Poland

Germans in Poland, 1931

Linguistic map of Poland, 1937

⇐ The map employed in the 'Europe' section seems POV, showing very few Germans in the so-called Polish Corridor and an exaggerated proportion of Poles in German Upper Silesia. See another map, also of Polish origin, at right. ⇒ Sca (talk) 15:33, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

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We should consider integrating this into the article?

http://www.pewforum.org/2014/04/04/religious-diversity-index-scores-by-country/ 184.148.6.185 (talk) 23:20, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Germany

Angela Merkel's old citation is correct, but out-dated. This position is no longer prevailing. A few years ago, Merkel has adopted the now prevalent Green Party's ideal of a multicultural society. Various speeches of hers give witness to this change. Her opening of the German borders in September 2015 is a reflection of this fact. It would otherwise not be explainable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:120B:7F5:4340:844F:8D2E:FB8E:DD5A (talk) 08:58, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Sources 7 and 8

Hey.

Sources 7 and 8 don't seem to back the proposition to which they are attached. I suspect vandalism. Or maybe it's just me. Just wanted to mention it : I'm not a regular contributor and I have no idea how this works. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.59.77.113 (talk) 20:18, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

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Last sentence in lead paragraph makes no sense

"It can also mean a kind of Esperantic Disney World, a tutti frutti cocktail of cultures, languages and art forms in which ‘everything becomes everything else'."

Um... what? Surely this sentence can be rephrased without all of the metaphors, so that it is more understandable.FinalForm (talk) 07:34, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree, I've removed it for time being This is the sentence for reference: It has been referred to as "a kind of Esperantic Disney World," a tutti frutti cocktail of cultures, languages and art forms in which ‘everything becomes everything else'. AllenY99 (talk) 09:16, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

References

It's WP:UNDUE, full stop (i.e., WP:CHERRY and WP:SYNTH at best). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:22, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

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Cleanup Cross-cultural

The page at Cross-cultural badly needs cleanup. It's a combination of an article, a dab, and a list page, and I reckon someone with more familiarity with related articles can do a better job sorting it out than I can. Daask (talk) 16:00, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Major trim coming

So I see this article has been taken over by non-related junk. Will be removing lots.....as in countries that don't have official policies related to this article will be removed. Have lots here just about ethnic groups an unrelated to multiculturalism as a policy or stance.--Moxy (talk) 20:46, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Polyculturalism should NOT redirect here

Polyculturalism is a fundamentally different concept to multiculturism. It should have its own article, or at least its own section. The two concepts are not compatible. 1.126.109.115 (talk) 10:29, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Multiculturalism, not history of immigration

The article seems to confuse multiculturalism with immigration or demographics and engages in listing unrelated data. Editing is necessary.

--EsperantoItaliano (talk) 05:16, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Nonsense about Denmark

The recently added section about Denmark seems very cherrypicked and WP:WEASEL to me. Simonm223 (talk) 18:37, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

I have removed the explicitly racist division of immigrants into "western" and "Non-western" as undue. And unclear. Simonm223 (talk) 18:42, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

No given WP:RS source say this is "racist". Western & non-Western has a clear definition by Statistics Denmark. Vestlige lande Vestlige lande omfatter EU, Andorra, Australien, Canada, Island, Liechtenstein, Monaco, New Zealand, Norge, San Marino, Schweiz, USA og Vatikanstaten. Ikke-vestlige lande omfatter alle øvrige lande.. Will restore per WP:PRESERVE because info comes from WP:RS. See this link under "Dokumentation". AadaamS (talk) 20:27, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Which source say this is "racist"? AadaamS (talk) 20:30, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I don't believe this information is WP:DUE - it is not appropriate for Wikipedia to include in an article the racist musings of a random Danish politician. Leave it out. Simonm223 (talk) 20:31, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

It is appropriate for enWP to include material sourced do WP:RS. No given WP:RS has claimed any of that report is racist. The Minister of Finance Kristian Jensen is not a "random politician". In fact public broadcaster Danmarks Radio has cited the report and DR.dk are WP:RS. AadaamS (talk) 20:44, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Being reported in a reliable source doesn't make an opinion WP:DUE and I'm arguing that this person's opinion about the impact of immigration by destination is not due inclusion in an article about multiculturalism; it's mainly there as a WP:COATRACK for racist talking points and as such is doubly WP:UNDUE. Simonm223 (talk) 20:57, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

The figures are reported as fact by DR.dk and they are WP:RS. Your accusation of "racism", if not backed up by WP:RS, are a null and void argument. It's not "this person", it's the Danish minister of finance. Why would you call a minister "a person"? Which source says this is "racist"? If experts have criticised the finance ministry report on this, then fine, but otherwise it serves no useful purpose to to keep repeating arguments that aren't backed up. It doesn't make them more right. It is better and more constructive to keep bringing new sources to the discussion. AadaamS (talk) 21:11, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Also see WP:IDONTLIKEIT - disliking Danish politicians is not a valid reason to delete WP:RS material. Also see WP:PRESERVE - accurate material belongs in the article while it is in progress. AadaamS (talk) 21:25, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Addressing points in turn:

• racism - no WP:RS claim these figures are racist. Unless backed up by sources, it's an irrelevant argument. Don't repeat it if it can't be backed up by sources.
• Objections on the grounds of unclear definition of Western/non-Western has been addressed by WP:RS sources.
• Edit comments such as "dog-whistle" serve no constructive purpose and aren't a valid criticism.
• A paragraph devoted to figures reported by the Danish Finance Ministry are due weight - because that's the highest levels of a democratially elected government. According to Transparency International, Denmark is one of the least corrupt countries on earth.
• A paragraph in a page containing over 9000 words is not undue.
• no WP:RS of equal authority which presents alternative figures or diffferent information has been presented by objecting editors.

Therefore the objections comes down to the personal opinions of an objecting editor, because those opnions not backed up by even one single expert source. The information I added to the article is backed by WP:RS sources and that's why it should be WP:PRESERVED. AadaamS (talk) 08:34, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

You have made absolutely no case that this information is WP:DUE in an article about multiculturalism rather than immigration. Furthermore you editwarred your supposed WP:PRESERVE complaint back in, over the 3RR brightline. Your argument is all just an excuse for this WP:COATRACK. Simonm223 (talk) 12:58, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

There are more sources out there and there will be more sources added to those in the future. The editor who brings WP:RS sources to a dispute usually prevails in the long run because consensus can't overrule expert sources. Any progress on finding sources for the claims of "racism" that you have levelled against the government of Denmark, the oldest operating newspaper in Denmark plus the Danish public broadcaster? AadaamS (talk) 20:59, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

You're missing the point. The issue is not the reliability of the sources but rather that the information is irrelevant to the topic of the page. All it really demonstrates is that the current government of Denmark has some awful views on immigration and says absolutely nothing about multiculturalism. Simonm223 (talk) 21:03, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Of course I will keep looking for more sources, thanks for the encouragement. Still waiting for a source saying the govt of Denmark is either "racist" or "awful". See above, Denmark is one of the least corrupt countries on the planet, there's even a source for that. AadaamS (talk) 22:05, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Windschuttle and Hanson's critiques

I'm not sure how their criticisms warrant attention. For one thing, the wording in that part is a little unclear. But, I also think that the logic in their arguments is fundamentally flawed; from what I gathered in that section, it seems to imply that they assumed the Spaniards and Aztecs coexisted for a long time, while ignoring the whole invasion and colonization portion. Additionally, this is not indicative of the failure of multiculturalism because it was never really implemented anyways.

While they do constitute as criticisms, they're not really thought provoking ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ourdearbenefactor (talk • contribs) 03:04, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Stuart Hall ('godfather of multiculturalism') should be mentioned in this article

According to https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Stuart_Hall_(cultural_theorist) : 'By the time of his death, he was widely known as the "godfather of multiculturalism': Don't you then think it would be suitable to add him to this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.52.218.129 (talk) 03:41, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Removal of peer-reviewed research

An editor removed a 2020 study that found that ethnic diversity had a positive impact on wages, productivity and growth at the city-level. The editor claims that the study is inaccurately summarized, because the study cites the findings of other studies in the abstract as a juxtaposition to the findings of the study. The study in question finds that ethnic diversity had a positive impact on wages, productivity and growth at the city-level, but that there is no impact on large geographical areas. The study should be restored. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:42, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Citing the city-level (the minor) impact and omitting the country-level impact from the same source constitutes CHERRY-picking. Also claiming the "no impact on large ..." also misrepresents the abstract which says the impact was slightly negative or insignificant on country level. Therefore the souce, while reliable, is not accurately represented in the article. The material should only be re-added with the country-level impact accurately described. A Thousand Words (talk) 13:24, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

You have not even read the study. The abstract is CITING OTHER RESEARCH for the claim you say is part of the study's findings. It cites that literature as a contrast with the study's original findings. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:39, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

This study is therefore a secondary source on that other research, whereas this source is primary on the research they conducted themselves. It is therefore a stronger source on the research it summarizes than the research they did themselves, yet there are repeated attempts to push the weaker material into this WP article, while leaving out the stronger material. This could easily be resolved if both the country-wide and the city-level info was added to this WP article. A Thousand Words (talk) 16:53, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Feel free to add the country-wide research to the article then. It's not my responsibility to dig up every single study on the topic just because you feel a need to rebut all the content that isn't anti-immigration. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:11, 13 March 2020 (UTC)