Talk:Movement for Democratic Change – Tsvangirai

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On 20 February 2018, it was proposed that this article be moved from Movement for Democratic Change – Tsvangirai to Movement for Democratic Change – Zimbabwe. The result of the discussion was not moved.

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Movement for Democratic Change - Zimbabwe

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. It was not sufficiently shown that Movement for Democratic Change – Zimbabwe has replaced Movement for Democratic Change – Tsvangirai as the most common name in reliable sources. It will most likely become much clearer what name reliable sources are using in the lead-up to Zimbabwean general election, 2018. The question can be revisited once the issue is clearer. Aervanath (talk) 10:46, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Movement for Democratic Change – Tsvangirai → Movement for Democratic Change – Zimbabwe – The party is officially called the Movement for Democratic Change – Zimbabwe therefore should the page not be moved to that title? It will inevitably need to be moved eventually as now with Tsvangirai's passing, people are unlikely to continue referring to it as the MDC-T. Chieftain Tartarus (talk) 15:42, 20 February 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. — Amakuru (talk) 09:42, 15 March 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. TheSandDoctor ^Talk 17:08, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Summoned by bot) Strong support per our policies and guidelines about official names. — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs) 09:47, 7 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No evidence of the change, or of trends in usage since the change, has been presented. Dekimasuよ! 19:41, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The website: [1] market themselves as just 'Movement for Democratic Change' Chieftain Tartarus (talk) 08:03, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Would page move to Movement for Democratic Change – Chamisa be more appropriate? or would the fact that Nelson Chamisa is "Acting President" be a factor? " – Zimbabwe" should not be considered because it does not adequately disambiguate the party from the "other" Zimbabwean MDC, Movement for Democratic Change – Ncube, which is led by Welshman Ncube. Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 03:44, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Party is officially called the Movement for Democratic Change - Zimbabwe, the leaders name plays no part in it. It is even referred to as such in the article itself. Chieftain Tartarus (talk) 08:01, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since there is another movement called Movement for Democratic Change – Ncube in Zimbabwe, that goes counter to what you say. What if someone wanted to rename that page to Movement for Democratic Change – Zimbabwe? Wouldn't that be just as correct, since they are both political movements in and of Zimbabwe? Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 16:47, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

PS. Also, according to your post above, the website (primary source) just uses the base name, "Movement for Democratic Change", so it is very important for you to show other sources (secondary sources) that support that name. If that can be done, then this article should be moved to that base-name title. Otherwise, if you want this page moved to your proposed title, then you must show secondary sources that support the "– Zimbabwe" title for this particular movement. PS added by Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 17:01, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm indifferent about which way this goes either way. I only nominated it because Tsvangirai is deceased and most news sources seemingly refer to them as the MDC. It would probably look better as Movement for Democratic Change

That's understandable, and how do you think the closer will interpret the fact that you have provided no reliable secondary sources to support either name you've suggested? Where are all those news sources that refer to this particular movement only as "the MDC"? Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 09:56, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Search Google instead of being lazy and patronising, I have no further interest in communicating with you until you sort out your attitude. Chieftain Tartarus (talk) 11:03, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies if I drove you to have such a negative reaction. Please accept that when editors make a claim on Wikipedia, they are expected to show how their claim is supported in reliable sources. They are definitely not expected to ask other editors to do their groundwork for them. I expect that you already know this, so no further communication on this issue is necessary. At great risk of sounding patronizing, thank you for your valued contributions to this encyclopedia! Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 20:31, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here you go: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7] Chieftain Tartarus (talk) 11:35, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What I read about in those news articles is turmoil, strife and violence within the country. It's really hard to tell how much of their usage of "MDC" with no qualifier is due to a purposeful ignoring of Ncube's MDC and to the fact that the vice president, who thinks that she should be president, may actually make another break-off MDC of her own. So with nothing but uncertainty looming until the summer election, it still seems better for Wikipedia to wait until things smooth themselves a bit before we make any change to this article title. Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 20:51, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since Movement for Democratic Change is (correctly) a disambiguation page, that is not an option for a new title here. The article on this page deals with the history of the faction that was known as Movement for Democratic Change – Tsvangirai until very recently, and it is not clear what disambiguator would be best for renaming this article (Movement for Democratic Change (2018– ) doesn't work since this also deals with the earlier incarnations of the faction). I have to oppose any move based on what we've seen here. Perhaps it would be best to start another article on the current party after the death of Tsvangirai. Dekimasuよ! 18:44, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like a good idea and yet, there are two good reasons to hold off on a new article... 1) tradition does seem to mean that the title should be Movement for Democratic Change – (leader's name), and with the present turmoil and violence, it would be better to see what if any stability the summer elections bring, and 2) time is needed for the new title to gain notability in reliable sources. Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 14:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, this can remain where it is for the time being. Dekimasuよ! 01:14, 31 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and the proposed title really should target the dab page, since "Zimbabwe" is an ambiguous qualifier. Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 03:12, 31 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The official website is of course a primary source. The supposition that the leader's name will be dropped more generally is very shaky; It may equally be that, like many artists, his influence increases after his death. Andrewa (talk) 04:23, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

China.

@ChieftanTartarus: What does the source say, in your opinion? --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 08:15, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sidoroff-B: The article literally talks about expelling Chinese Investors, the source does not even mention President Xi at all nor does it reference the Chinese government or authorities. Chinese investors could literally be anyone in China who decides to invest in Zimbabwe. There is no direct reference to the Chinese leadership at all. Chieftain Tartarus (talk) 08:20, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@ChieftanTartarus: OK, let's put "anti- Chinese investors". --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 08:28, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sidoroff-B: No, it is not a political ideology, it does not go in and will not be put in the infobox. It is also unnecessary to have it in the main text of the article because it is not a major policy which defines the party. It would only need to be added into the text if they win an election and act on the policy, but until that happens, it does not need to be mentioned. Chieftain Tartarus (talk) 08:34, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@ChieftanTartarus: What is chief policy? In Zimbabe, ALL parties are Left-wing nationalism. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 08:37, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sidoroff-B: No political party article on Wikipedia dictates each and every policy of the party. Only major historical developments are documented about the parties in their Wikipedia articles, see ZANU-PF or The Labour Party for example. We don't document individual party policies for the sole reason that they change overtime, the only exception to this is if they represent a major shift in the political spectrum. This does not. Whether a party is left wing or not does not change the fact that all articles follow a specific format and consistency. Chieftain Tartarus (talk) 08:41, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]