Talk:Mount Everest/Archive 7

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Archive 7

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2022

"In the early 1960s, the Nepali government coined the Nepali name Sagarmāthā (IAST transcription) or Sagar-Matha[22] (सगर-माथा, [sʌɡʌrmatʰa], lit. "goddess of the sky"[23]).[24] The Nepali name for Everest is Sagarmāthā (सगरमाथा) which means "the Head in the Great Blue Sky" derived from सगर (sagar) meaning "sky" and माथा (māthā) meaning "head" in the Nepali Language."

Two contradictory translations in consecutive sentences, which is correct? I'm inclined to believe the sourced one but if an editor knows better they can source the second and remove the first. 82.8.187.31 (talk) 09:20, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.

But I agree that this paragraph is unclear and probably needs discussion here to achieve a consensus.Nsevs • Talk 21:45, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2022

The Mount Everest is located in India and not in China ! Please correct that 5.30.21.224 (talk) 11:42, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:49, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD

Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Everest-3D-Map-Type-EN.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for 2022-12-27. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2022-06-21. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 13:50, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Madama Butterfly is a 1904 opera in three acts by Giacomo Puccini, with an Italian-language libretto written by Luigi Illica and Giuseppe Giacosa. The plot is based on the short story "Madame Butterfly" (1898) by John Luther Long in turn based on stories told to Long by his sister Jennie Correll and on the semi-autobiographical 1887 French novel Madame Chrysanthème by Pierre Loti. The opera features Pinkerton, a U.S. naval officer, who rents a house in Nagasaki, Japan, for himself and Cio-Cio-San (nicknamed Butterfly), a 15-year-old Japanese girl whom he is marrying for convenience and intends to leave once he finds an American wife. This watercolor illustration on cardboard, from the archives of the music publisher Casa Ricordi, depicts the scenic design for a 1906 production Act 1 of Madama Butterfly, set in the hills near Nagasaki.

Illustration credit: Alexandre Bailly and Marcel Jambon; restored by Adam Cuerden

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Article length and detail

This article is way too long and overly detailed. I fail to see why we need a subsection for each calendar year. ITBF (talk) 12:08, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Agree. The aviation section is also strangely involved. A bunch of the expeditions and stunts probably need to be their own articles and get compressed in this one. The climate section is weirdly short, too, given how important meteorology/climate change is to the mountain... Penitentes (talk) 13:25, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 August 2022

In the Death Zone section, it incorrectly attributes roughly 100 deaths per year to Mont Blanc, which is disputed and labeled as incorrect due to circular reporting in the media [on the Mont Blanc page](Mont Blanc#Fatalities). The correct number is roughly 10-20 per year, since the 1990s. Awrg (talk) 11:15, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done Icabobin (talk) 14:01, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Mount Everest from my private plane (12,007).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:37, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2022

Mount Everest is located in Nepal . There is no such thing as common land of both countries. So, stop using border China- Nepal. Just include Nepal . Also, though it is Nepal, everywhere Nepal's name is in secondary position. Is it because Nepal is poor country and China is developed country? Information should not be unclear or ambiguous. so, please first most thing is to write Mountain in Nepal (no need to say south asia as there are lots of mountain in south asia and this statement is making it less important) . Secondly, we, Nepali have lots of sentiment attached with it. So, include its in Nepal. Also, put Nepal at first (in document, tibetan name was given first and Nepali name was at last). We know that for official use, wikipedia is not preferred by people all over the world. But you can make it happen if you provide correct and CLEAR information. People will start using it as correct and verified information sources.

Please change " located in the Mahalangur Himal sub-range of the Himalayas." to " located in the Mahalangur Himal sub-range of the Himalayas, Nepal" . Please remove this "The China–Nepal border runs across its summit point." because the china is in another side of Mt Everest. No part of Mt Everest falls in China. So, summit point is also not in china. In name section, include " Nepali name " first as it is in Nepal. Please add " located in Nepal " in title.

Thanks & Regards MiraKC21 (talk) 12:33, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: A bit of a rambling request, but for a start the phrase "China and Nepal" appears 4 times in the article, and "Nepal and China" appears three times. That's hardly "everywhere". The rest of your request comes across somewhat as WP:GREATWRONG in tone. Can you provide sources to support your requested changes? Chaheel Riens (talk) 17:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Selected rescue records

All the records stats are about summitting. How about adding some of the most impressive rescue stats? For example, Highest successful rescue attempt Longest rescue attempt in the death zone. Etc. Ruchirshah (talk) 21:28, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

If you have reliable sources for those, you're welcome to add a section about it! NekoKatsun (nyaa) 22:40, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

More suggestion than me volunteering to do this. I imagine there are many climbers who’ve turned down their opportunity to reach the summit in order to aid a stricken climber. Ruchirshah (talk) 20:13, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

"Snow height" meaning unclear.

Googling around, I cannot seem to find a meaning for the term "snow height," especially in relation to absolute elevation (specifying "snow height Everest" google just circles you back to this wiki, so I don't think the term is exactly in common use :)

Can the term either be removed or some sort definition provided?

And if it is indeed some sort of obscure professional term, I'd suggest it get it's own starter Wikipedia page discussing its meaning, linked to this one where it's used. 97.115.137.219 (talk) 14:21, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

It's covered in the article, actually. "An argument arose between China and Nepal as to whether the official height should be the rock height (8,844 m, China) or the snow height (8,848 m, Nepal)." The snow height is the rock plus the permanent snow cover. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 16:10, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Grammar Mistake

Under the "Name" section, the article discusses how Britain's surveyors experience difficulty due to the exclusionary policies of Nepal and Tibet.

It uses "Nepal and Tibet's" exclusionary policies. This is incorrect--as it literally means (Nepal) and (Tibet's exclusionary policies). So Nepal was difficult, too, but only Tibet has exclusionary policies?

It should be "Nepal's and Tibet's" exclusionary policies, using the possessive for both words. Zthomasack (talk) 01:21, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

As far as I understand, when there are two items separated by "and", it's enough if we give possessive for the second item alone, for example, John and Smith's teacher (rather than "John's and Smith's teacher"). So Nepal and Tibet's is fine; it simply means "Nepal's and Tibet's". Rasnaboy (talk) 03:40, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

The grammatical nuance here, however, is that while (according to the assertion) both countries have "exclusionary policies," these two sets of policies are separate entities (unlike the teacher shared by John and Smith in your example). Even if the policies are virtually identical, they are not literally the same body of legal statutes, as each nation has presumably instituted the policies separately. Therefore, I believe it would be more correct to attach apostrophes to both "Nepal" and "Tibet," as one would do for a statement such as "Megan's and Hugo's bicycles": each person has a bicycle, and they may even be virtually indistinguishable bicycles, but they are not the same bicycle. Jcejhay (talk) Jcejhay (talk) 19:40, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I've just added the apostrophe, for the reasons I've explained above. I do note that the actual wording was "exclusion of foreigners," which feels a little semantically different from "exclusionary policies," insofar as policies are more concrete than "exclusion," which is slightly more of an abstraction (of something concrete). Nonetheless, I think the same principle applies: Nepal's exclusion and Tibet's exclusion are two separate exclusions, even if they have the same effects. Jcejhay (talk) 20:04, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Infobox on first ascent

The infobox says that Hillary and Norgay were the first people on the summit, as it were certain. There must be some note that George Mallory and/or Andrew Irvine may or may not have reached the summit during the 1924 British Mount Everest expedition. Changes by me have been reverted by stating that only what is proven belongs into the infobox. The thing is that the entire statement "First ascent: Hillary and Norgay" isn't proven because Mallory/Irvine possibly had ascended the summit first. Therefore, there must be a note or something stating that Hillary and Norgay were the first people who definitely stood on the summit / whose summit is verified. Glasfaser Wien (talk) 06:48, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Assuming this is a well documented controversy, you could add a cite note after Hillary and Tenzing's names. (See the cite note next to Elevation in the infobox for an example).RegentsPark (comment) 13:22, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Needs updated

For the section Selected climbing records, I understand that Kami Rita Sherpa is up to 28 as of May 8 2023. Billymac00 (talk) 15:03, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

It has been done. Szelma W (talk) 15:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

LLM tag

Hey User:AIVOP, can you please suggest which parts of the article you think are AI generated, on what basis are you making this claim? I see you added the tag, but with no specifics, so I strongly suspect you may be basing it on AI content detectors which are prone to false positives or end-user misinterpretation of results. If not, I'd be happy to review all the parts of the article you think are AI generated. Komonzia (talk) 22:38, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Looking through the article history for the last year or so when ChatGPT-generated content could reasonably have been added, I am not seeing any substantial edits. Possible that I missed something but for now I have removed the tag until AIVOP explains what exactly raised their concern. Abecedare (talk) 23:00, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Literally not literally

The end of the Names section contains this paragraph at the end:

In the early 1960s, the Nepali government coined the Nepali name Sagarmāthā (IAST transcription) or Sagar-Matha (सगर-माथा, [sʌɡʌrmatʰa], lit. "goddess of the sky"), which means "the Head in the Great Blue Sky", being derived from सगर (sagar), meaning "sky", and माथा (māthā), meaning "head".

Does anyone else see a couple of problems? Does māthā "literally" mean 'head' or does it "literally" mean 'goddess'? And where did the "great blue" part come from? There's either too much explanation going on here or too little. WP Ludicer (talk) 16:38, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2023

The peak of the Mt Everest is located in Nepal but this information shows that in China. You can refer to historical documents for proof. If needed, I can provide. Please correct that. 2405:ACC0:1100:4A19:E566:4529:D6BE:ABC7 (talk) 02:55, 26 June 2023 (UTC) Mount Everest is fully located in Nepal but why yours information is showing the location of Mt Everest is in China-Nepal boarder? 2405:ACC0:1100:4A19:E566:4529:D6BE:ABC7 (talk) 02:56, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Mount Everest#cite note-4 Hyphenation Expert (talk) 04:32, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Regarding Euophrys spp. section in Flora and fauna

I was updating the references to Wanless (1975) and, upon reading the paper, found that it does not appear to confirm that the specimens found at 22,000 ft. were indeed Euophrys omnisuperstes. I've highlighted the relevant clauses below.

In the Introduction section:

The first report by Major R. W. G. Kingston (1925) of small, black, immature salticid spiders living amongst rocky debris at 22,000 ft on the slopes of Mount Everest, caused some controversy as to whether these spiders were vagrants or permanent residents.

In the Euophrys omnisuperstes n. sp. section:

The immature specimens collected by Major Kingston from 22,000 ft are mutilated and badly rubbed. They appear to be conspecific with E. omnisuperstes n. sp. but the clypeus is low and the apices of the anterior eyes form a straight line, a condition possibly brought about by a dented carapace. The identity of immature spiders is often uncertain and for this reason these specimens have not been listed as paratypes.

For now, I'm going to edit the section to reflect that the paper appears only to confirm that the specimens found at that particular altitude were of the genus Euophrys. – spida-tarbell ❀ (talk) (contribs) 22:14, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2023

Please remove the location of China. 202.51.88.250 (talk) 01:22, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Since the border with China runs through the summit, we can't just omit China from the article. —C.Fred (talk) 01:27, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Coordinates in the infobox

The reference for this is now an irrecoverable dead link, but it seems to have been a WP:SPS. I propose to replace it with one from the American Congress on Surveying and Mapping. As this is a bit sensitive (China/Nepal border) I thought I'd check here first.

Alternatively, USA Today.

--AntientNestor (talk) 07:59, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I can't read the ACSM reference, but the USA Today source only gives the location to the nearest minute, 27°59′N 86°56′E, which is not very precise. WikiProject Mountains often uses Peakbagger which claims 27°59′18″N 86°55′31″E. It would be good to compare multiple sources and see if there is agreement, or whether we can find the most up-to-date measurement. — hike395 (talk) 15:11, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I saw Peakbagger. It seems very comprehensive, but isn't it WP:USERGENERATED? AntientNestor (talk) 15:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

There was a long discission about this at WP:RSN in 2021 that did not come to consensus. The quantitative data is not WP:USERGENERATED, but is self-published. We could not come to consensus about whether Peakbagger falls under the "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications" exception to WP:SPS.

I would suggest that we can use Peakbagger coordinates to see if there is a consensus lat/long amongst many sources, but maybe choose a different source if they agree. What coordinates do ACSM suggest? — hike395 (talk) 16:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

ACSM has 27°58′22.590325″N 86°55′45.970699″E, which is a far higher precision than is recommended in WP:OPCOORD. I'd be happy with USA today, as it's the most readily available. The odd metre either way won't matter if there's agreement. AntientNestor (talk) 16:23, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

USA Today coordinates are 1.214 km away from ACSM: I think that is unacceptably imprecise. I'll look for more. — hike395 (talk) 01:00, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, clicking on the kink in the China/Nepal boundary at Mount Everest on Google Maps yields 27°59′18″N 86°55′31″E (rounding to the nearest second), which matches Peakbagger. — hike395 (talk) 01:05, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Clicking on the peak icon at acme.com yields 27°59′17″N 86°55′31″E (to the nearest second), only 30m away. — hike395 (talk) 01:13, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

OK, let's avoid USA Today then. I'm glad we're sorting this out here first! AntientNestor (talk) 07:16, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Interestingly, the China State Bureau of Surveying and Mapping locates the peak at 27°59′15.8″N 86°55′39.5″E (to the nearest 0.1 degree). This is somewhat to the east in China. When I look at the topographic map at Acme and click on the highest topo point (instead of the peak icon), I get 27°59′19″N 86°55′31″E (nearest second), also a little bit in China, but much closer to the other coordinates. — hike395 (talk) 15:45, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Hike395:Interesting that the result of a joint China/Nepal effort, that places the summit in China, is published only in a Chinese journal. It's definitely a WP:RS, though, and should go in, replacing the both existing note and its reference. You found this—do you want to do it?--AntientNestor (talk) 16:54, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I find it a bit suspect, since it appears to be 242 meters away from the general consensus of the mapping services. It's also unclear whether it is the result of the joint effort from 2017-9. My current preference is to use Peakbagger (because that is consistent with the mapping services, and clearly superior to the WP:OR that is currently in the infobox), but continue to investigate. Or we can cite to Google Maps if you find the WP:SPS to be an issue? — hike395 (talk) 17:24, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Peakbagger has been discussed before and seems generally to be accepted, so go with it. I think the Chinese are reporting the 22 May 2019 ascent with GPS kit by Nepalese climber Khimlal Gautam. The headline in National Geographic was "Nepal has remeasured Mount Everest. Now China has to weigh in."--AntientNestor (talk) 18:07, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Sagarmatha

"In the early 1960s, the Nepali government coined the Nepali name Sagarmāthā (IAST transcription) or Sagar-Matha (सगर-माथा, [sʌɡʌrmatʰa], lit. "goddess of the sky"), ... "

It certainly was not coined in the 1960s. There are several newspaper articles from the time of the first successful climb that mentions the name. For eg, Guardian, July 13, 1953 (https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-guardian-everest1/143686293/ ) says "Everest is known in Nepal as Sagarmatha".

What I understand from newspapers in the 1960s is that the Chinese claimed that this word was newly coined by Nepal while Nepal argued that it is an ancient name. Can someone who knows the subject comment on this. In any case, "early 1960s" is incorrect. Tintin 17:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Rewritten per the source provided. The cited source said nothing about the Nepali government coining it in 1960 anyway. RegentsPark (comment) 20:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Tintin 20:26, 19 March 2024 (UTC)