Talk:Marron glacé

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Translation

Can someone translate the italian version of this article? It seems to be the most complete version. My english is not good enough to translate a so big article!

Thank you for the translation! This is maybe the reference you need: http://www.taccuinistorici.it/newsbrowser.php?news_id=736&news_dove=3

Candied chestnuts

But how exactly do you do Marron glacé? Are the chestnuts boiled, roasted, sliced, mashed? How does the final product look like? Warrington (talk) 18:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't spoil a good article by insisting it actually describes the subject matter! :-) 18:13, 3 October 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.159.106 (talk)

Disputed origin of the Marrons Glaces / Candied Chestnuts

A marron glacé (plural marrons glacés) is a confection, originating in south of France and/or Piedmont (north region of Italy) consisting of a chestnut candied in sugar syrup and glazed. Marrons glacés are an ingredient in many desserts and are also eaten on their own. Gourmet Masters (talk) 11:59, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Origin

The origin is disputed with Piedmont. I think it should be left there as double possible origin 95.248.34.201 (talk) 10:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree - if it is disputed between France and Savoy then the article can say it is disputed with sources that say such. There is lots of precedent for that. Putting sugar on a nut is not likely something that would have been limited to the confines of Lyon even in the 17th century. But despite that, sourcing is crucial. Komonzia (talk) 22:43, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are some in the text that show a possible Piedmontese origin. I'll try and find others 95.248.34.201 (talk) 23:09, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The origin seems clear to me, the first recipe was published in France in 1667.

~~Way later, in the 18th, recipes also appear in Piedmont under the same French name (marron glacé). So France is the place of origin. Podistovy (talk) 07:43, 15 August 2024 (UTC)~~(

Blocked sockpuppet of Xiaomichel, see investigation)[reply]

But there are sources that claim it was a known recipe in Piedmont too. So, double origin, as that's the rule for cases like that. Same as farinata, whose first recipe was italian 87.9.223.167 (talk) 14:57, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~It is not what I see in the source. Even the name used in Piedmont is French, that gives us a clue about the origin. Podistovy (talk) 15:30, 15 August 2024 (UTC)~~(

Blocked sockpuppet of Xiaomichel, see investigation)[reply]

It doesn't matter what you don't see, it is in the source. And no, Piedmont comes from Latin. How far do you want to go with your lies? 95.244.205.15 (talk) 08:39, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And, I repeat, that's the criteria for farinata and bagna cauda 95.244.205.15 (talk) 08:39, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit war

@Belbury Podistovy must be blocked but the other IP who was edit warring with them is also blocked. The version previous edit war is the one I am restoring. Yonasse (talk) 16:58, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When the article was protected due to edit warring over Italy's inclusion last year, Enamait stepped in to remove Italy from the article claiming that this was the "pre-edit war version". They were blocked as a sockpuppet of Xiaomichel only this week.

Podistovy was removing Italy from the article last month claiming that this was "before the edit war". They were also blocked as a sockpuppet of Xiaomichel.

You are now removing Italy from the article claiming that the Italy-free text is "version previous edit war".

Prior to both of these edit wars, the article listed both Italy and France. Belbury (talk) 17:12, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The edit war started before that, I see the IP adding Italy and insistig with that even when there are no sources for that. Look older versions. Yonasse (talk) 17:15, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It mentioned Italy around 2008:

https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Marron_glac%C3%A9&oldid=231901851

And when the article was first created:

https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Marron_glac%C3%A9&oldid=49988098

The source (maybe not reliable) in the 2008 version states, in Italian: "The dessert that best represents this heritage is the marron glacé, a specialty born around 1500 and the subject of centuries-old disputes between Piedmont and France. In Italy, the credit is attributed to a chef of Duke Charles Emmanuel I (between the 16th and 17th centuries), and the first recipe book that mentions this sweet is the “Confetturiere Piemontese” printed in 1766."

The fact it has a French name isn't really relevant. Charles Emmanuel I, Duke of Savoy spoke French and I am guessing chefs in Italy often also spoke French. On the face of it, the fact that the origin is disputed between those two places appears true - if it is true and there are sources, it should be cited in the article. Komonzia (talk) 02:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Komonzia Doesn't the existence of the first marron glacé recipe in La Varenne's book published in 1667 invalidate the claim that the first recipe was published in Savoy a century later (1766)? Yonasse (talk) 09:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Yonasse maybe, but it doesn't invalidate the claims that fly outside of Wikipedia that there is a disputed origin. The article can say "it first appeared in X recipe book" and also say "sources Y and Z, disputing, claim Savoy is the origin citing a later recipe book". Sometimes simply portraying that sources disagree is one way to get around disputes like this. Komonzia (talk) 14:27, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Komonzia I agree to include the mention of the recipe published in Savoy in 1766 but it would be inaccurate to claim this as a possible origin of marron glacés because there exists a recipe that predates the Savoy publication by approximately 100 years.

In the Oxford Companion to Food, widely regarded as one of the most authoritative sources on food history, marron glacés are described as a French confection, with no mention of Savoy:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Oxford_Companion_to_Food/bIIeBQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22a+French+confection+made+from+whole+chestnuts,%22&pg=PA497&printsec=frontcover Yonasse (talk) 10:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

origins dispute

Attempting a little moderation here.

Origin disputes are a common problem at the intersection of food dishes and nationalism. When we have them, a good way to handle it is to develop an Origins section detailing the dispute, mention the dispute in the lead, and leave out mention of either nation in the infobox. Valereee (talk) 16:42, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]