Talk:Mark Drakeford

Removed obvious political score points

Saw things on the page and removed.

Personal life section

Why is there material about Drakeford's son in there? The article is about Drakeford, not his son. I propose it is removed. Arcturus (talk) 12:55, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm on the fence about this one. It was reported very widely in the press because of the family connection and clearly many felt it was a notable fact about Drakeford's family. Lots of politicians' articles feature information about their parents, children, and spouses, especially controversies. However I do appreciate there seems to have been little said by MD about his son with regards to his life and conviction. Will be interested to see what others think. Llemiles (talk) 11:20, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

@Llemiles: given the lack of interest here, I'll remove the material. However, if you feel strongly about it, please feel free to restore it. Thanks, Arcturus (talk) 19:49, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

I have just reverted an attempt to re-assert this information. I agree with Arcturus that this BLP is about Drakeford and not his son. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:22, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Is this consistent? The article includes information about Drakeford's wife, albeit fairly minimally. I would've thought it odd not to mention when there has been significant coverage. OGBC1992 (talk) 12:18, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

The information about his son is much more charged than that of other members of his family. Other than being his son, there doesn't seem to be much connection between his son's offense and him and including that could suggest one in violation of BLP for this article. If his son merits an article, a link to that could be included here. 331dot (talk) 12:25, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

It’s more charged in that it’s a bit more shocking. I’m not sure if that’s a reason to not include it on Wikipedia or not though. OGBC1992 (talk) 09:53, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

The information about his wife states that she died, which is also information about Drakeford as this was the natural end of his marriage. There is also something about sheltering from Covid but this is about Drakeford because it has him moving into the back garden. There is no independent information about his wife either as she, like his children, is not independently notable. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:13, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

First Minister section

I think we need to add more to the First Minister section of this article, it only has two paragraphs. Ciaran.london (talk) 23:12, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 September 2021

Add Minister for Finance for Wales category. ScottishNardualElf (talk) 17:24, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. (Note: Category:Minister for Finance for Wales does not exist) (pinging ScottishNardualElf) — LauritzT (talk) 19:25, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Apologies, I mistyped the category name. Please can the category Category:Ministers for Finance of Wales be added please? ScottishNardualElf (talk) 13:46, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

 Done Now added. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:57, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Martinevans123 ScottishNardualElf (talk) 14:07, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

If he ethnically welsh?

If he ethnically welsh? Kaiyr (talk) 08:17, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

He is Welsh born and raised, so yes. Cymrogogoch (talk) 18:10, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

he hates welsh people that's why he is in office too punish the welsh. 86.6.166.233 (talk) 19:02, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 January 2023

His wife died, not him! 90.254.178.177 (talk) 18:24, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

It does not say he died, so I assume this has been corrected now. RudolfRed (talk) 19:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Personal Life - his wife?

In the personal life section his wife is aged 71 at death, where is the source for this? On The Sun's article covering her death, it states she was 66, I can't find a mention of her being 71. I'd also suggest revising the entire section. 31.205.214.108 (talk) 00:23, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

His son

Mark Drakeford has a son currently imprisoned for sexual abuse Why is this not documented  ? 81.77.165.63 (talk) 14:40, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

This article is about Mark Drakeford, not his son. See "Personal life section" above for a prior discussion on this topic. 331dot (talk) 16:39, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

he is protected by local press any negative comments are edited or vetted 86.6.166.233 (talk) 19:05, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia has no control over how the local press writes about Minister Drakeford. That's an issue that you need to take up with them. 331dot (talk) 19:07, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

This story as it has developed has received widespread coverage (e.g. here, here, and dozens of others), repeatedly noting that "Jay Humphries" is Mark Drakeford's son. A petition has been started on change.org demanding Drakeford's resignation because of it. No, the story isn't directly about Mark Drakeford, but it's undoubtedly having an effect on his public image, and deserves a brief mention. Omitting it is simply censorship. GrindtXX (talk) 12:14, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

If there is news coverage about a petition calling for the minister to resign(kinda puzzling that he is being held responsible for the behavior of his son, but I digress), that could certainly be mentioned, prior requests were simply to mention it just because it was his son, nothing more. 331dot (talk) 14:36, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

It isn't censorship any more than not documenting everything Rishi Sunak does is censorship. Curation and editorial oversight is not censorship. 331dot (talk) 14:37, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

It may not be censorship but I don't think it's trivial either to bring it up, of course i'm saying he's personally responsible for it as the guy clearly isn't but a son is a person who is an immediate to somebody and as such i think it's completely to at least what his son did on his page. StrongALPHA (talk) 07:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

As I said, certainly if people in Wales tried to get him to resign(by starting a petition) because of the actions of his son, that would be valid to include, as I said before. And, if his son merits an article, that could certainly be linked to from here. 331dot (talk) 07:29, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean by "a son is a person who is an immediate to somebody" exactly? A son is a son. A daughter is a daughter. Simply that? Are you suggesting that every son and daughter should have their activities reported in the article for their parent? The good things, as well as the bad things, and the mundane things? Where do you draw the line? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:29, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, it should have said that "a son is person is an immediate relative to somebody", for instance a son, a brother, a father(children, parents, and siblings) but no one more distantly related if I had a wikipedia page it would not mention that I am supposedly distantly related to Otto von Bismarck. Secondly, no, a son is not simply just only and purely a son unless you´re totally estranged from the parents, a child will be influenced by them in some regards even if they don´t get along. Forget about jonathan being mark drakeford´s son just imagine that one of barack obama´s children or george w. bush´s children had murdered or raped somebody I think it would get a mention. StrongALPHA (talk) 15:40, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

If we forget about Jonathan being Mark Drakeford's son then fine, he's not notable, he's never mentioned. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:43, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

You completely miss my point, I should have said if we forget the specific instance of Mark Drakeford´s family and look at that of another family of another politician, the kid is mentioned albeit not by name under the section that states that mark has three children all the same i´m obviously not going given anything here. StrongALPHA (talk) 15:48, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Hunter Biden and his legal troubles are largely discussed in his article and other articles like Family of Joe Biden, not in the Joe Biden article. 331dot (talk) 15:53, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I wholly agree with 331dot, e.g. "if people in Wales tried to get him to resign (by starting a petition) because of the actions of his son, that would be valid to include". Even if Drakeford had made a pubic comment about his son in this context. Otherwise, no. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:54, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Non-cited text

The non-cited text here needs citation and verification, particularly because this article is of a living person and Mark Drakeford has a relatively high profile in Wales. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 23:34, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Details about resignation

I moved and enlarged the paragraph about Drakeford's resignation announcement to the main section, also editing it to distinguish the roles of Welsh Labour Party leader and Welsh First Minister.

I have not had time to check the Welsh-language translation for the same issue. Perhaps another editor more fluent in Welsh than I am could fix it, as this is breaking news. Cwilsyn (talk) 14:36, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Anything written issued by the Senedd in Welsh should also be issued in English. But his resignation as Leader of Welsh Labour "with immediate effect" means he is still leader until a new one has been selected? i.e. the infobox should still show him as "Incumbent"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:49, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Seems politico states immediate effect, which contradicts with the Guardian source quoting him saying "my intention to stand down as leader of Welsh Labour in March 2024".[1] Just saying I find a direct quote more reliable than Politico's interpretation of a quickly developing situation, but probably more clearer soon. Not sure why the Welsh translation matters? Did Drakeford announce it in Welsh? DankJae 15:37, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

His statement here and here: "I have today formally notified the chair of the Welsh Executive Committee of my intention to stand down as Leader of Welsh Labour in March 2024..... Nominations for my successor as Welsh Labour Leader will open shortly. The process will be concluded by the end of the Spring term, to enable the name of the winner to be put to the Senedd before the Easter recess.... In the meantime, I remain your First Minister....". Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:58, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Ha! That looks like an announcement in English to me. Whatever was he thinking! Martinevans123 (talk) 16:34, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

He announced it in both languages - but this is English Wikipedia. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:55, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

diolch am egluro [2] Martinevans123 (talk) 21:18, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I meant to convey the idea that someone needed to check the Wikipedia site in Welsh, not to post the actual Welsh quotes on this page. Cwilsyn (talk) 08:36, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

The BBC's X newsflash at 11:19 said "Mark Drakeford resigns as Welsh Labour leader with immediate effect, triggering contest to replace him as first minister".[3] -- DeFacto (talk). 22:35, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

What does "with immediate effect" actually mean? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:39, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

It's clear from the words he used (as reported verbatim elsewhere) that he has not resigned "with immediate effect" - the processes through which he will eventually be replaced will now start with immediate effect, but that is not the same thing. He remains leader of the party, and First Minister, until he is replaced. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:05, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Ghmyrtle, I really don't want to start a revert war. I do think that the initial reports from BBC, Guardian, and Politico seem inconsistent. Please consider redoing with your added sources, rather than undoing, the paragraph. Matters will probably become more definite shortly. Thank you. Cwilsyn (talk) 09:07, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Please, let's work out our editing here, instead of getting into an undo loop on the text itself. As we see from this talk page, other editors are also puzzled by the discrepancy in sources. Thank you. BTW, my current time zone is not UTC. Cwilsyn (talk) 09:31, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I have politely asked that we discuss issues here instead of undoing (in less than 10 minutes!) without fixing the underlying problems. For now, I'm going to sleep, since it's 1:40 Los Angeles time. Hope to talk later today. Cwilsyn (talk) 09:41, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

It was the BBC that alerted me to the apparent confusion in effective dates between Drakeford's roles as Welsh Labour leader and First Minister. However, I did not cite the BBC report itself in my revision. I only meant to clarify. Cwilsyn (talk) 08:44, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

So, as quoted in our current source, The Guardian, he said (in English!): "I have today formally notified the chair of the Welsh executive committee of my intention to stand down as leader of Welsh Labour in March 2024.... In the meantime, I remain your first minister." Is he no longer leader of Welsh Labour, but still First Minister? Or did the BBC just invent all this "immediate effect" business? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:16, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

It may be that Cwilsyn is for some reason barred from seeing the actual video of the press conference, where what Drakeford says is perfectly clear. Where supposedly reliable sources are blatantly wrong, it's best to simply ignore them. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:04, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

That seems unlikely, given the number of instances now appearing on YouTube. It's trending almost as much as the 20 mph blanket! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:12, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I saw from your earlier comments that the definition of with immediate effect was elusive to some other editors. Thank you for trying to understand my concern in good faith. The initial announcement I received was as breaking news on my BBC app, which did not carry the live speech. When I switched to the Guardian, the discrepancy in headlines caught my attention immediately (!) , and I wanted to clarify the WP page. I should have started with the body and then revised the lead. My comments about using the Talk page for discussion are aimed at another editor who is simply doing reverts without much explanation. Upon checking that person's records, I learned that they have frequently been called out by WP administrators. Again, thank you and diolch yn fawr. P.S. I have now located a very brief statement from Drakeford's press conference in Welsh, and plan to study it for my own elucidation. Cwilsyn (talk) 21:49, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

No worries, dude. Mark would be proud. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:22, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Given your lengthy experience, this is a sincere question. What should an editor do when attempting to reconcile varying reliable) sources (Guardian vs. BBC)? I accept your point about Politico. Also, an editor working in a distant time zone may inadvertently get caught by those with more immediate access to changes in material. I do feel generally that it would be good form to explain the problem, instead of what some others are doing with hasty undos and reverts. (This sentence is not directed at you or MartinEvans 123.) My comments about using the Talk page for discussion are aimed at another editor who is simply doing reverts without much explanation. Upon checking that person's records, I learned that they have frequently been called out by WP administrators. Amdani! Cwilsyn (talk) 22:07, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

@Cwilsyn, best avoid unrelated discussions here on an editor's conduct elsewhere, focus on this article's content. If you are referring to reversions concerning the lead, I find them justifiable, unfortunately you added material to the lead that wasn't elsewhere in the article. such as in this edit, where you added to the lead

Drakeford held a press conference to announce his intention to resign as Welsh Labour leader with immediate effect.

but the rest of the article only states:

On 13 December 2023, he announced his intention to resign as Leader of the Welsh Labour Party, although he would remain as First Minister until his successor was chosen, which is expected to be before Easter 2024.

and

On 13 December 2023, Drakeford announced his intention to resign, and step down after his replacement has been selected in a leadership contest anticipated to be in March 2024.

so nothing on "press conference" or "immediate effect". Sorry.

So if you wish to add it, please add it to the body first, and tbh more detail is for the body rather than the lead, which is a summary.

If there are conflicting sources then that is what this talk page is for. But finding the better source that explains the situation in the most detail is likely to be more accurate and explain the contradiction clearer, so secondary sources closer to the subject and more in-depth. I've mentioned before that I find direct quotes from Drakeford to be more reliable than the words of a journalist of a rapidly developing situation.

Thanks for your interest in Welsh too. Diolch yn fawr iawn.​ DankJae 22:44, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I judged (apparently wrongly) that if I didn't identify another editor even by pronoun, I could explain why the reverts were getting to me, instead of sounding short-tempered. Next time, I'll refrain from doing so.

The phrase "with immediate effect" was taken directly from the first BBC summary. As you suggest, I should have started with the body and worked backwards to the lead.

Cymru am byth! Cwilsyn (talk) 04:42, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

As often appears to be the case, BBC News edited their report several times during the morning, and they didn't just update the summary, but they retrospectively edited the 'Live Reporting' timeline too.

Looking back at the Wayback Machine captures we can see this (with my emphasis):

11:51:37

From 'Summary'

Mark Drakeford is standing down as Welsh Labour leader with immediate effect

From 'Live Reporting' timeline at '11:21'

Wales' First Minister Mark Drakeford resigns
Mark Drakeford has announced he will stand down as Welsh Labour leader immediately and a leadership contest for a new first minister will be held.

12:08:11

From 'Summary'

Mark Drakeford is standing down as Welsh Labour leader

From 'Live Reporting' timeline at '11:21'

Wales' First Minister Mark Drakeford resigns
Mark Drakeford has announced he will stand down as Welsh Labour leader immediately and a leadership contest for a new first minister will be held.

12:27:03

From 'Summary'

Mark Drakeford is standing down as Welsh Labour leader

From 'Live Reporting' timeline at '11:21'

Wales' First Minister Mark Drakeford resigns
Mark Drakeford has announced he will stand down as Welsh Labour leader and a leadership contest for a new first minister will be held.

So perhaps they did "just invent" it to start with, or, as I would suspect, they might have speedily relayed it from another source without verifying it first, to keep up with their competitors. -- DeFacto (talk). 11:59, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Breaking news!! This has just happened!! It's immediate!! etc., etc.? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:07, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Your review of the timeline is quite helpful. I think I looked at the first report; then The Guardian headline was differently worded, so I was trying to reconcile them. Now I realize that I should have started in the body of the page, before going direct to the lead. Thank you for taking the time to reconstruct the situation. Is the BBC always considered the better source? Cwilsyn (talk) 04:24, 16 December 2023 (UTC)