Talk:March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom

"On" not "In"

I reverted the title of the march to "March On Washington" from someone who changed it to "March In Washington." The official title of the march used "On" as you can see from the Lincoln Memorial Program. There is a valid argument that the political tone of the march was watered down from "on" to "in" at the insistence of the Kennedy administration and the more conservative organizations such as the NAACP, and that argument should be reflected in the article, but the title of the march remained "On," not "In." For a discussion of internal political issues among march organizers and the White House, see March on Washington for Jobs & Freedom (Civil Rights Movement Veterans).

Brucehartford (talk) 16:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

-

"About 250,000 people were in attendance, of which 60,000 were white people."

"eighty two out of five marchers were African American. "

This doesn't add up.

this is bullshit, if only because Martin Luther King, Jr., cited as one of primary organizers of the March on Washington, actually contributed very little to the real organization of the March on Washington. As a matter of fact, the idea, which is often attributed to him, was initially conceived by female SNCC activists. Also, while this is arguably one of the most important moments in the American Civil Right's Movement and indeed America history, the article on this monumental event is criminally brief.

2005 Protesters from around the country joined a march in Washington D.C. organized by ANSWER Coalition and United for Peace and Justice to promote peace and an end to the occupation of Iraq. Organizers claim that around 250,000 people attended the demonstration. Police said that 150,000 was "as good a guess as any". C-SPAN, which broadcast the pre-march speeches, is said to have estimated 500,000.

Why?

Why was the march condemned by the Nation of Islam and Malcolm X? Jimp 22:10, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

From my understanding, SNCC and SCLC were both nonviolent organizations at the time of the march. The Nation of Islam and Malcom X were both more radical groups. A 1964 quote from Malcom X taken from the Wikipedia article on the topic:

"The time for you and me to allow ourselves to be brutalized nonviolently has passed. Be nonviolent only with those who are nonviolent to you. And when you can bring me a nonviolent racist, bring me a nonviolent segregationist, then I'll get nonviolent. But don't teach me to be nonviolent until you teach some of those crackers to be nonviolent."

As I recall, the Nation of Islam did not have an interest in desegregation, they seemed more prone to establishing non-overlapping black and white societies within the walls of America. Again, I'm not 100% sure on this but hopefully my thoughts can be a starting point for your journey into learning about this.

Need to Clean up

This page is unorganized and wacked. I will do all I can to fix it up. - BlackBrotherX7

Goals

The article talks about the logistics but doesn't talk about the goals or results. Needs more work 68.117.64.25 03:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Rustin Not featured prominently enough

The main organizer of the march should be more prominent not an after thought. Its tough to fix given the layout of the article though. MATThematical (talk) 19:52, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I just noticed the same thing. The article Bayard Rustin acknowledges Rustin as the main organizer of the March, but you wouldn't know it from the March on Washington article. The book "Leaders from the 1960s: a biographical sourcebook of American activism" by David De Leon describes Rustin as the "central organizer of the March" and says the event was "primarily Rustin's idea." That book says that Adam Clayton Powell opposed Rustin being regarded as the principal organizer due to Rustin's homosexuality. A compromise was brokered, and A. Philip Randolph agreed to be known as principal organizer, with Rustin as his deputy. I hope a scholar of this era can expand the article to clarify this. Benccc (talk) 04:37, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

To say that the march was "primarily Rustin's idea" is an over-statement. Randolph and Rustin were close allies and long-time political partners in a number of endeavors, and both had been thinking about a massive march for years. It's impossible from the outside to say that one was primary over the other. For more on the origins of the march see March on Washington for Jobs & Freedom. The term "organizer" can have two different connotations. Randolph was the central organizer from the political perspective — building and holding together the coalition of disparate and feuding organizations and personalities. Rustin was the primary organizer from the nuts and bolts perspective — recruiting marchers, chartering buses, organizing the logistics on the ground, providing signs and marshals, coordinating with government agencies such as the National Park Service, etc. So either one could legitimately be considered the "main" or "central" organizer. Lastly, while Rustin's sexual orientation (and his previous arrest on a "morals" charge) was an issue for some, a bigger issue was his association with leftist political causes and organizations. The red scare of the 1950s still held powerful sway in 1963 and many of the more conservative civil rights leaders (not including Dr. King) feared to be associated with Rustin because of his political background. Brucehartford (talk) 15:52, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Rustin was not featured at all before I arrived and placed he and Randolph at the top of the article, where they belong. --Potguru (talk) 03:43, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

The problem is that you gave the 1940s March on Washington Movement too much emphasis by making it the subject of the second paragraph of this article. Please see WP:LEAD. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:30, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

For which the solution would be to improve the sentence, not revert the edit. 1941 reference now gone while A. Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin are restored to their rightful place in the lead. --13:19, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Imbalance with lengthy quoted speech

Why is there such a great big section called "Controversy over John Lewis' speech"? The march involved many speeches, and none were more effective than King's "I Have a Dream". Certainly, the John Lewis controversy must be aired, but its treatment here gives it WP:UNDUE emphasis. If one speech is to be extensively quoted, would it not be better to have several of them quoted? Binksternet (talk) 14:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I wrote much of that section on the John Lewis controversy, and I agree that it can appear unbalanced vis-a-vis Dr. King's speech. On the other hand, there is an entire separate Wikipedia article devoted to the I Have a Dream speech. To create length-balance between the two speeches in the "March on Washington" article would mean duplicating much of the material in the separate "I Have a Dream" article, which I think undercuts the value of a hyper-linked encyclopedia. As to the other speeches, most historians I have read pay them little attention, concentrating instead on King and Lewis. And as someone who participated in the March and listened to all the speeches as they were given, I concur in that assessment.

Brucehartford (talk) 17:32, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

The article here is about the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom; what happened at the March, what was said, should be the focus of the article. Lewis and King should certainly be quoted, even though there is a separate article for King's speech and none (yet) for Lewis's. As for the other speeches, I feel that readers would want a brief phrase or a few sentences from people such as Josephine Baker and Walter Reuther in the manner of Farmer's quoted bit delivered by McKissick. I think that what was not said and what was not done at the March should be discussed in this article only if the non-events were notable at the time, or became notable later. Though the article as it stands now states that people were angry at the movement's own censorship of Lewis, no reference is given to support those statements, and no notability or sense of importance is established through expert observers. The section, without references, appears as a personal observation and an attempt to right the old wrong (as in WP:NOTESSAY and WP:NOTADVOCATE). I'm sure the article can be improved by references to establish that a notable controversy existed regarding his voluntary elisions, but I would also argue for the addition of quotes from others so that Lewis is not given 30% of the focus. Binksternet (talk) 18:21, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I have cut the extended quotation. I also moved the footnote and added {{fact}} tags. Note that none of the refs given thus far support the main assertions made - that there was a significant controversy among activists, that the sentences were removed for PR/political reasons, and that the objections came from "more conservative and pro-Kennedy leaders". If there's so much content on a subject that it requires its own section, at the bare minimum there should be at least one credible source that supports the main assertions being made in that section.

The complete text of the speech would likely be excessive in any case IMO. It's worth noting that, if there are credible sources that support the assertion being made here of a major controversy, a separate article on the Lewis speech, or maybe a "Lewis speech controversy", would likely pass the threshold of notability and be kept, allowing most of the text to migrate to that article.

To sum up, if the controversy is notable, most of the text should be in a dedicated article. If it's not notable, then the coverage in this article is disproportionate. In any case, remaining assertions need to be backed up with some refs or they are subject to removal. Cheers, BanyanTree 12:03, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

"Largest ... in United States history?"

The article currently states: "... largest political rally for human rights in United States history." No one questions that the March on Washington was the largest up to that point in U.S. history (1963). The "largest" claim is sourced to a National Archives Article, Official Program for the March on Washington (1963). But there were subsequent marches around similar issues that were larger. For example, the Million Man March of 1995. So it seems to me that the language in this article should be either "... a large political rally" or "... largest political rally for human rights up to that point in United States history."

Brucehartford (talk) 19:41, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you. The perennial question of whose march is biggest isn't likely to be resolved soon, if ever. Either of your proposed solutions seems fine to me. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:50, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Someone changed it to "the second largest" which is also unsupported by citations (the cite says "one of the largest"). I changed it to "one of the largest". .froth. (talk) 01:36, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

YouTube

The two Bob Dylan links to YouTube do not work anymore. --Finn Bjørklid (talk) 13:11, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I removed the links. They were probably copyright violations anyway. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:37, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Source for demographic statistic

Is there a source for

Observers estimated that 75–80% of the marchers were black and the rest were white and non-black minorities.

as stated in the main paragraph? FieryEquinox (talk) 03:23, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Photos from 50th Anniversary of the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom

I've started uploading photos at Category:50th Anniversary of the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. (More photos to come). Djembayz (talk) 12:14, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Title of the article

I always thought that the common name for this event was the "March on Washington," not "March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom." I never heard of the last part of the title, although I do believe that it is the official event. Should the title of the article be changed in order to reflect what people usually call the event per WP:COMMONNAME? PointsofNoReturn (talk) 02:49, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 28 January 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. No agreement on whether this is the primary topic. Number 57 13:44, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

---

March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom → March on Washington – March on Washington is the common name and should therefore be the title of the article. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 00:16, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

• But there have been a lot of other marches on Washington too. March on Washington used to redirect to List of protest marches on Washington, D.C., which seems reasonable. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

But of all those marches the one people call the March on Washington is the March on Washington by black civil rights leaders. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 23:18, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose move, I believe the full name should be kept; a redirect can be used for March on Washington. Kierzek (talk) 23:59, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support move, per WP:COMMONNAME. — Cirt (talk) 00:22, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I think what needs to be discussed here is primarily not whether it's the WP:COMMONNAME, but whether it's the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Personally, if I were to bring it up in conversation, I would probably include some topic clarification, such as calling it Martin Luther King's March on Washington. —BarrelProof (talk) 02:24, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

For me personally, I just say the March on Washington when referring to the Civil Rights Movement. For any other protest movement in DC I specify the year and possibly use a different name for it. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 03:02, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

• Comment The King Center [1] uses "March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom" Gandydancer (talk) 15:07, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
• Comment CORE uses the March on Washington. [2] PointsofNoReturn (talk) 02:58, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support, although with no research or data to back it up. The 'March on Washington', or '1963 March on Washington' seem to be the common names I've heard, and 'March on Washington' already redirects here. The full name can be used in the first sentence as an alternate, as many official names are used as alternates on Wikipedia. I'd like to hear from Malik Shabazz and Brucehartford on this, as well as other regulars on CRM articles, to see if I'm totally in error. Thanks for bringing the topic up though, it's a good one to discuss. Note: Although it's in the lead because of one source, this event didn't motivate or cause either the Selma to Montgomery marches or the 1965 Voting Rights Act. What is Wikipedia policy when something in a lead is totally wrong but is sourced? Just add other sources saying 'no, it did not' in some form or another? Randy Kryn 19:36 30 January, 2015 (UTC)

If it's wrong it should be removed and either contradicted with another source or just not mentioned at all. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 02:27, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

• Weak support I think this is the best-known march on Washington. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:48, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. There are lots of marches on Washington. WP:PRECISE applies.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:55, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

But none are as notable as the March on Washington for Civil Rights. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 16:44, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Oppose dropping "for Jobs and Freedom" from the title, but support having a redirect (or disambiguation) from "March on Washington." The official, formal name of the event was "March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom" and that is reflected in the documents produced at the time (see Documents From from the March on Washington). Where space was a problem, for example on a banner or a small flyer, simply "March on Washington" was sometimes used, but those instances were exceptions to a pretty consistent general rule. According to both contemporary sources and later historians, addition of the words "for Jobs and Freedom" was a subject of some discussion and debate among the march organizers, so they were not added lightly. When creators deliberately choose a specific proper name for their creation, I think we should respect that in the official title of the article about whatever it is. To me, it's similar to acronyms, most people most of the time say and write NAACP, not National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, but the title of the Wikipedia article is National Association for the Advancement of Colored People with a redirect from NAACP. Brucehartford (talk) 06:33, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

But the article for the March on Washington is not an acronym. It's still simply called the March on Washington. On a separate note, in a Google search, "March on Washington" receives 220 million results.[3] "March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom" receives 76.5 million results.[4]. By those results, WP:COMMONNAME applies. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 03:00, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Oppose Changing the Name. I used "acronym" above as just one example of common parlance differing from formal name, to make the point that encyclopedia articles use the formal name with a redirect from the slang term. There are non-acronym examples such as a tabloid headline or common conversational reference to "J.Lo" or "JayLo," but the Wikipedia article is Jennifer Lopez. People of a certain era may commonly refer to New Orleans as the "Big Easy" but that's not the title of the Wiki article. Common terms change and evolve with some rapidity, formal official names don't. Suppose, for example, that this year or next there occurs a huge climate-change, global-warming protest in Washington that people start referring to as simply, "The March on Washington." That could happen, that's the problem with rapidly changing common parlance. Brucehartford (talk) 18:39, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Various iconic images such as the above of Bayard Rustin and Cleveland Robinson use the full name. ~g

Demonstrators during the march on washington

• Oppose – "March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom" was the name of the event as recorded in countless official and secondary sources. The full name is key to distinguish this event from other marches, including the theoretical marches threatened over the years by the March on Washington Movement. (Example.) shalom, groupuscule (talk) 12:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

  The March on Washington Movement was a specific event/group in the 1940s, just wanted to mention that after your post. It seems like this issue is almost at the point of asking for a no consensus closure, as there are good arguments on both 'sides' (if something like this has sides). Both names are adequate, and 'March on Washington' redirects here as it should, so nobody coming to the words 'March on Washington' looking for the 1963 march will get lost. By the way, SCLC's participation for and in the march was called for by James Bevel after there was no further need to actually march the children and students of Birmingham up the highway from Birmingham, Alabama to D.C. to talk with John Kennedy, which was a plan underway and being arranged with the students when the Kennedy administration asked the top folks at SCLC what they wanted in a full civil rights bill. Those youngsters certainly accomplished a lot. Randy Kryn 13:08 5 February, 2015 (UTC)

• Support I have decided to support a change. Looking through the photos, it is my impression that the marchers were interested in a wide range of issues. See photo. Gandydancer (talk) 14:23, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Just remembered something from the article and checked it [5] I've changed my mind to oppose. Gandydancer (talk) 19:08, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

I think this discussion needs to be kept open longer. I had the same thought... the article should be moved to "March on Washington". SUPPORT! --Potguru (talk) 03:45, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Its already closed. Kierzek (talk) 03:47, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Not only that, but it's been closed for more than a year! Potguru, if you think there are good reasons why the article should be moved—based on WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, for example—you should familiarize yourself with some of the reasons people argued against moving it last year and be prepared to refute them. If you still think you have a winning argument, try starting a new move discussion. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 04:24, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

conversation continues here: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User_talk:Malik_Shabazz#Randolph_and_Rustin --Potguru (talk) 13:14, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

No, it isn't. Start a new requested move if you're interested in moving the article. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:29, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://www.guampdn.com/article/20130815/OPINION02/308150017/Rustin-finally-getting-due-recognition
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090511150144/http://www.wdashistory.org/3.html to http://www.wdashistory.org/3.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:18, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Emancipation proclamation

The article should mention that it is the 100y anniversary. — Charles Stewart (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

It does, twice. In the infobox in the top left corner of the page and in the "Background" section. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:33, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Lena Horne excluded?

The caption about Lena Horne being “excluded from speaking” and why she and some others were escorted off the stage opens a question that is not answered here or on her page. What was going on? Marty Mangold (talk) 01:42, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Relevance of Donald Trump party nomination to 2020 Virtual March

I am unsure how the nomination of Donald Trump as the 2020 Republican presidential nominee is relevant to the section "2020 Virtual March on Washington".

"An online tie-in event was also planned, called the 2020 Virtual March on Washington. It was held August 27 and 28, the latter being the anniversary of the iconic "I Have a Dream" speech, and the day after President Trump was scheduled to accept his party's nomination for President at the Republican National Convention."

It's inclusion is seemingly random and distracts from the purpose of the section.

- Leafy Beavre (talk) 12:13, 3 June 2021 (UTC)