Talk:Mandarin orange (fruit)

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Requested move 30 April 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved. (non-admin closure) Consensus is against the move as outlined in the proposal. — Insert CleverPhrase Here 07:57, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

– Ask yourself: When someone says "Mandarin orange", do you think of the tree or the fruit? Timmyshin (talk) 20:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think that a day-old content fork is not the primary topic. — AjaxSmack 00:47, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support, per nom. Randy Kryn 00:38, 1 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I don't really see the need for two articles here. Neither article is very long and the tree and the fruit can be covered in the same article. If there are two articles, the second should be at the scientific name, Citrus reticulata, which 1) is how plant/fruit articles are split everywhere else that they are split and 2) provides a better framework for laying out the relationship between mandarins, tangerines and satsumas. Plantdrew (talk) 02:23, 1 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- @Plantdrew:. The tree and the fruit can't be covered in the same article cause there are several species whose fruits are called mandarine oranges. Please look at the article now, I've explained this in the lead section. --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:16, 1 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Moscow Connection: There is a "mandarin orange tree", but there are also mandarin orange fruits produced by trees that aren't "mandarin orange trees"? That doesn't make any sense. The problem is that taxonomy of cultivated citruses is a real mess. Some people think that tangerines and satsumas are separate species from "mandarins" (Citrus reticulata). Other people think that tangerines and satsumas are particular cultivars of C. reticulata. Under the latter view, tangerines and satsumas are a type of mandarin, as is already explained in those articles. Under the former view, either tangerines aren't mandarins at all, or if tangerines are mandarins, mandarin covers a (not very well defined) broader concept than Citrus reticulata. Better to have an article on the species with Citrus reticulata as the title that discusses how tangerines and mandarins are related and another article on the fruit (that also discusses how tangerines and mandarines are related) than to have an article on the tree that defines the tree more narrowly than the fruit. Plantdrew (talk) 21:36, 1 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - Better to have an article on the species with Citrus reticulata as the title [...] than to have an article on the tree that defines the tree more narrowly than the fruit. — I agree. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:20, 1 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - @Plantdrew: It's just that the article "Mandarin orange" starts with "The mandarin orange (Citrus reticulata; ...) [...] is a small citrus tree" and I assumed its main topic was the particular tree species and that it was that particular tree species that was commonly called a "mandarin orange tree". Should the article "Mandarin orange" maybe be remade into a "Citrus reticulata" article, with everything related to the fruit moved here? ("Citrus reticulata" is now a redirect to the article about the tree.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:46, 1 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    - I've looked at the Wikidata item for "Mandarin orange" and I've noticed that the description says "Citrus reticulata (species of plant, use Q190024 for the Mandarin orange)". And Q190024 is the item for "Mandarin orange (fruit)".
      Look at the edit history: [1], [2], the description was written back in 2013–2015 by User:Brya (who seems to specialize in botanical nomenclature, on Wikidata at least). --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:04, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Mandarin orange tree might be better than Mandarin orange (tree), as WP:NATURAL disambiguation. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:36, 1 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose but support having the tree at Citrus reticulata per User:Plantdrew ~~or a (re-)merge. The fruit article is only one day old so merge shouldn't be too hard.~~ — AjaxSmack 00:47, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- @AjaxSmack: This article wasn't split from anywhere. It was mainly based on the Russian Wikipedia article about the fruit. Originally the lead section (the definition) was also close to the ones in French, Basque, and Galician, now it is closer to the one in the Spanish Wikipedia.
  Anyway, I don't think it is a good idea to merge it anywhere cause a merge will only prolong the current confusion across many articles here and in other languages (as far as I can see the "Citrus reticulata"/"Mandarin"/"Mandarin tree" articles in many other Wikipedias were based on the English Wikipedia article "Mandarin orange" and because of that the whole Wikipedia is a mess.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:26, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  - OK. Thanks. — AjaxSmack 01:40, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the proposal. Where there is a lot of information, e.g. there are many cultivars, different culinary uses, many cultural references, etc., it can make sense to have two articles: one on the taxon (species, cultivar group or cultivar), and one on the product. However, this needs to be demonstrated: usually by discovering that a single article is becoming too long. It's not been demonstrated here. The two articles should be merged under one title, "Mandarin orange". What happens on other wikis is completely irrelevant. If it is ever the case that two articles are justified, then the species article should, as Plantdrew says, follow the usual practice and be at the scientific name. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:04, 2 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Mandarin is not an orange

What really surprises me is that the term "mandarin orange" is used. When we talk about orange (Citrus sinensis), will we use the term "orange orange"? Why not just use "mandarin" instead of "mandarin orange"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amilcarduarte (talk • contribs) 00:16, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]