Talk:Man Haron Monis/Archive 1

Archive 1

Can we lock this?

before any more vandalism occurs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.211.145.135 (talk) 13:58, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

So apparently he took hostages in australia. The article should reflect this. 74.93.254.92 (talk) 14:06, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

It's been reported by many news outlets that this person is the hostage taker. How is this vandalism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.251.66.199 (talk) 14:08, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Not vandalism: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/martin-place-sydney-siege-gunman-identified-as-man-maron-monis-20141215-127sxt.html 124.149.173.127 (talk) 14:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

2014 hostage situation:

He's been named as the hostage taker:

• [1]
• [2]
• [3]
• [4]
• [5]

--Harizotoh9 (talk) 14:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I think they clearly qualify as sources. Shouldn't be considered vandalism now.

This is referring to 2014 Sydney hostage crisis. --220 of ^Borg 14:15, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014 (named)

On 15th December 2014 Haron was named by Australian Police as the man who has held upto 30 hostages in a local cafe in Australia 82.7.233.228 (talk) 14:15, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I propose this text:

On 16 December 2014, Haron took hostages in a siege at the Lindt Chocolate Cafe in Sydney.

—sroc 💬 14:23, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

 Done Gnangarra 14:28, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014 (remove)

please remove this person from wiki he is NOT deserving of 'any' reference in any way whatsoever. he is the person responsible for the current sydney hostage situation! please remove this information which is actually incorrect regarding his name/status and history. If you are going to to print information about him then do so with facts not rubbish about a very sick person!http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/12/16/00/48/sydney-hostage-taker-named-as-man-monis thank you 103.6.188.234 (talk) 14:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

denied see WP:NOTABILITY and WP:MPOV Gnangarra 14:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014 (Rafidi)

Please change the "Conversion from Rafidi to Islam" section. While Rafidi may be the word Haron uses, this is actually a derogatory term for Shiite Islam. This usage of Rafidi does not belong on Wikipedia, we should change the wording to "Conversion from Shiite Islam to Sunni (or Sunnite) Islam." Then explain: according to Haron's Facebook page and personal website (sheikhharon.com), he converted to Sunni Islam from Shiite Islam, which he refers to as Rafidi – a derogatory term for Shiites often used by the Islamic State group. IS ideology, to which Haron now subscribes, views Sunni Islam as the only Islam. Thank you. Talbot0893 (talk) 14:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

As I have written above, it looks as though he added those words himself, if you look at the article history.

 Done section removed Gnangarra 14:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014 (Droudis)

Replace the following:

Haron is notable for the campaign undertaken by him and his colleague, Amirah Droudis, protesting the presence of Australian troops in [[War in Afghanistan (2001–present)|Afghanistan]], which takes the form of letters sent to the families of fallen soldiers in which he denigrates the soldiers as murderers,<ref>{{cite news|author=AAP|date=6 September 2013|title=Sheik says letters were flowers of advice|url=http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/09/06/sheik-says-letters-were-flowers-advice|work=SBS News|publisher=sbs.com.au|accessdate=8 February 2014}}</ref> and urged the soldiers' families to petition the government to remove its troops from Afghanistan. The letters were sent to the families of deceased Australian Soldiers.

with the shorter, and I hope clearer:

Haron, together with his colleague Amirah Droudis, undertook a campaign protesting the presence of Australian troops in [[War in Afghanistan (2001–present)|Afghanistan]], by writing letters to the families of soldiers killed there, in which he called the soldiers murderers,<ref>{{cite news|author=AAP|date=6 September 2013|title=Sheik says letters were flowers of advice|url=http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/09/06/sheik-says-letters-were-flowers-advice|work=SBS News|publisher=sbs.com.au|accessdate=8 February 2014}}</ref> and urged the soldiers' families to petition the government to remove its troops from Afghanistan.

Please also remove one of the carriage returns at the end of the "Sexual assault case" section.

This is requested as uncontroversial.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 14:38, 15 December 2014 (UTC).
14:38, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

" Done Gnangarra 14:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014 (Sunni)

Change:'Convert from Rafidi to Islam. In December 2014 Haron announced that he used to be a Rafidi but he had converted to Islam, he announced it both on his website[17] and his Facebook Page[18]' To: 'Convert from Shi'ia Islam to Sunni. In December 2014 Haron announced that he used to be a Shi'ia Muslim but he had converted to Sunni Islam, he announced it both on his website[17] and his Facebook Page[18]'

This section has been removed now so the request is withdrawn. Thanks.

previously done Gnangarra 14:46, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014 (headwords)

Propose the lead be amended as follows:

Man Haron Monis is an Australian Muslim cleric born in Iran.

Haron was born Manteghi Bourjerdi in Iran where, as an ayatollah, his liberal interpretation of Islam led to the detention of his wife and children.^[1] Bourjerdi fled Iran to Australia in 1996 as a refugee, and changed his name to Man Haron Monis, assuming the title of Sheikh Haron.

I also propose that the article be moved to Man Monis as the WP:COMMONNAME since he is not actually a Sheikh and is being widely reported as Man Monis right now.

—sroc 💬 14:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Support move per WP:COMMONNAME All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 14:41, 15 December 2014 (UTC).

denied please start a WP:RENAME request for this. Gnangarra 14:42, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I think you mean Wikipedia:Requested moves? —sroc 💬 14:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

oops yep, I used the Commons term sorry Gnangarra 14:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Rename -- New lead

Just so this is clear before the move occurs my understanding is that editors will want the lead to change from;

Sheikh Haron is an Australian Muslim cleric originally from Iran.

Haron was born Manteghi Bourjerdi[citation needed] in Iran where, as an ayatollah[citation needed], his liberal interpretation of Islam led to the detention of his wife and children.[1] Bourjerdi fled Iran to Australia in 1996 as a refugee, and changed his name to Man Haron Monis, assuming the title of Sheikh Haron.

and become something like

Man Haron Monis was born Manteghi Bourjerdi[citation needed] in Iran where, as an ayatollah[citation needed], his liberal interpretation of Islam led to the detention of his wife and children.[1] Bourjerdi fled Iran to Australia in 1996 as a refugee, and changed his name.

please can editors confirm this or make further changes Gnangarra 15:13, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014 (Sheikh)

Why is this page titled Sheikh Haron - this man is neither an certified Islamic cleric or imam. There is no need whatsoever to give this man a Sheikh title.

176.24.226.153 (talk) 14:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I have requested this article be moved to Man Monis. —sroc 💬 15:02, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

see below Gnangarra 15:18, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

"Man Haron Monis"

The hostage-taker has been named by Australian police as Man Haron Monis.

• Australian police have named the suspect in the Sydney siege: Islamic leader Sheik Man Haron Monis.
• Sydney Hostage Taker Identified as Man Haron Monis
• The man behind the shocking siege in a Sydney café was Man Haron Monis, a notorious 49-year-old self-proclaimed sheikh who claimed to practice black magic and was well known for multiple crimes including sending offensive letters to grieving families of dead Australian soldiers and allegedly murdering his ex-wife. Monis, a self-proclaimed “spiritual healer”, had a long history of criminal convictions.
• Australian police have said they believe the man who has seized hostages in a central Sydney cafe is Man Haron Monis, a self-styled radical cleric from Iran. Having initially put a ban on the media from revealing Monis’s identity, this decision has since been reversed.

107.19.189.169 (talk) 15:18, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

This page should be deleted, speedily

It is inappropriate for Wikipedia to list details of a this person when a crime is currently taking place as I am writing this. The encyclopedia should be covering the event, not the person. you are glamorizing this monster in an inappropriate and insensitive way for his own righteous self worth and its not right and overly opportunistic. protect the page? NO!! Speedy G3. Hell Yes.

The event isn't currently covered on this page, this page is currently about the persons prior "Hate mail" campaign, murder case, and sexual assault case. No. 103.251.66.199 (talk) 15:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. - A Canadian Toker (talk) 16:06, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Please remove "ayatollah" title

"Iranian ayatollahs" to "Iranian clerics" Monfie (talk) 15:18, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

while I realise the first claim maybe false please provide a source to verify he's a cleric as that has also been questioned Gnangarra 15:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

everybody who use this cloths is told Shia cleric or akhoond. BTW, remove "Iranian ayatollahs" (not only from categories, but from other parts as well) because ayatollah is a very high ranked degree which needs strong reference.Monfie (talk) 16:06, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15. December 2014

Please remove Peter Hore from the "See also", as it is not obvious, how he is related to this matter. --Liberaler Humanist (talk) 16:02, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Done. Jenks24 (talk) 16:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014 (comma)

Under Sexual assault case, a comma is required after "New South Wales" per MOS:COMMA, i.e.:

... who went to his consultancy in Wentworthville, New South Wales, for "spiritual healing"...

—sroc 💬 14:32, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Specifically:

• In geographical references that include multiple levels of subordinate divisions (e.g., city, state/province, country), a comma separates each element and follows the last element (unless followed by other punctuation). Dates in month–day–year format also require a comma after the day and also after the year (unless followed by other punctuation). In both cases, the last element is treated as parenthetical.

Incorrect:	He set October 1, 2011 as the deadline for Chattanooga, Oklahoma to meet his demands.
Correct:	He set October 1, 2011, as the deadline for Chattanooga, Oklahoma, to meet his demands.

—sroc 💬 15:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Done. Jenks24 (talk) 16:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014

I am requesting that an admin place the required template so that this article can be nominated for speedy deletion. per WP:A10

There is no reason this article should exist it details someone who is notable only for the 2014 Sydney hostage crisis and any pertinent information can and should be contained there

Declined. Article has existed since 2010, clearly there is an argument he is notable for more than just this event. Definitely not a speedy-able case. Jenks24 (talk) 16:23, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request Nomination for Deletion

I am requesting that the relevent tag be placed on this article so it can be nominated as an article for deletion. - A Canadian Toker (talk) 16:16, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Declined. See section directly above. Jenks24 (talk) 16:23, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

(Note: An eventual merge per WP:BLP1E might be envisaged, but it is too early to determine whether this is appropriate. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:29, 15 December 2014 (UTC).)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014

82.7.233.228 (talk) 15:38, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Changed to "answered" as there was no actual request. Jenks24 (talk) 16:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014

Move the page as *several* people have suggested. He is not a Sheikh, and giving him the world's attention under that title is wrong.

Has been moved by Anthony Appleyard. Jenks24 (talk) 16:26, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Edit: Religion

Can some please edit the religion from 'islam' to 'Sunni Islam' or 'Salafi islam'

QUOTE "Monis also references his conversion from Shia Islam (Monis immigrated to Australia in 1996 from Iran, a mostly Shia country) to Sunni Islam" END QUOTE

SOURCE: http://www.vox.com/2014/12/15/7393791/sheikh-haron-website — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jumada (talk • contribs) 16:34, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 15 December 2014

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved by Anthony Appleyard to Man Haron Monis. Closing as everyone seems in agreement that this is the ideal title, but happy reopen if requested to do so. Jenks24 (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

---

Sheikh Haron → Man Monis – Move over redirect per WP:COMMONNAME, Man Monis is the name being widely reported in current events linking him to the 2014 Sydney hostage crisis and he is not a Sheikh (it is a self-proclaimed title which only serves to advance his self-promotion). – —sroc 💬 14:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink).  — Amakuru (talk) 15:13, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I think Man Haron Monis is the common name that has been most usually applied to him, both historically and in the press today. Suggest that would be a better target for the move.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:13, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

  I assumed, as the media today may have, that Haron was a middle name, but I would go with that if you say so. —sroc 💬 15:20, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - support move to Man Haron Monis. Hack (talk) 15:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support move ASAP either as nom or Man Haron Monis In ictu oculi (talk) 16:08, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - support for Man Haron Monis (prefered) or Man Monis, also support for closing before 7 day period. --Sitic (talk) 16:09, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
• Has been moved by Anthony Appleyard. Probably worth keeping the discussion open to see whether the 'middle name' (not sure if that is the correct term in this case) should be added to the title. Jenks24 (talk) 16:28, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Can someone please edit Sheikh Haron to redirect to Man Haron Monis to avoid a double-redirect? —sroc 💬 16:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Done. Jenks24 (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014

In section "Hate mail" campaign please remove:

The letters were sent to the families of deceased Australian Soldiers.

This information is in the previous sentence.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:38, 15 December 2014 (UTC).

Done. Jenks24 (talk) 16:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Remove full protection

Full protection is too much. Semi-protection for at least a week is all that's needed. There are just idiots with IPs coming in to vandalize the page. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 14:13, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm aware he has just been named but its not the first time that the person identified isnt the person involve... WP:BLP has higher standards for individuals... another admin may chose to alter the protection level at a later time but for now in the heat of the event and 30 second media cycle I'll defer to the principles of BLP. Gnangarra 14:23, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• Please remove full protection. Abductive (reasoning) 15:32, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

There are now many, many, many sources citing him as the hostage taker. This easily passes WP:BLP. Example:

• [6]

We now have the absurd situation where the main article for the event goes into detail about him, but the article on the perpetrator hardly discusses the event. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 16:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Full protection of an article about a current event is illogical. There are some false information that should be corrected. This this protection is kind of power abuse by admins. Monfie (talk) 16:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Full protection

Is there any reason why this article should be fully protected other than the mod felt like it?--217.170.105.39 (talk) 16:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

That is a little harsh, perhaps. I would say it could come down to semi-protected, though. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC).

There is no evidence that he was ever a cleric, far less an Ayatollah

Wearing a white cape doesn't make you the pontif. The funny thing is he declares that he is not a Shia, yet in many images is wearing the usual dress of a Iranian Shia cleric.

Also the reference given for his reason for leaving Iran is very weak. Iran does not 'hold hostage' family members of someone accused of a crime. This looks like an excuse to gain asylum, nothing more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.183.233.242 (talk) 16:17, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

He changed his allegiance. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC).

He was, not is, cleric. FYI: Cleric is low rank degree, but Ayatollah is very high rank. This big claim needs big reference (now no reference!!)Monfie (talk) 16:24, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Removed the ayatollah claim. Jenks24 (talk) 16:38, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

@Jenks24: It is still in template and categories.Monfie (talk) 16:47, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Fixed both hopefully, thanks. Jenks24 (talk) 16:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Addition of information about December 2014 'conversion'

− According to the suspect's website and Facebook pages, he 'converted' in December 2014. What he means by his use of the derogatory term 'rafidi' is that he had come to identify as a Sunni Muslim and to believe that followers of other sects of Islam were non-believers. I'm just new to editing here, perhaps someone else could write the text? Cheers. SapereAude88 (talk) 17:16, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

The text from the event article is good: Earlier in December 2014, Haron posted to his website: "I used to be a Rafidi, but not any more. Now I am a Muslim, Alhamdu Lillah".[4] "Rafidi" is a derogatory term used by Salafis to describe the Shia branch of Islam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SapereAude88 (talk • contribs) 17:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Not Shia

The article lists him as Shia, but according to BBC, he converted to Sunni Islam. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-30484419) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.9.150.148 (talk) 17:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

We have to be careful, our article used to say that he converted. There is a risk that journalists are using it as a source. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC).

It really makes no sense to say he is Shia, since ISIS hates them.

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014

Date of birth seems to be 19 january 1964 (given on deutsch version of wikipedia here: de:Man_Haron_Mounis If.mihai (talk) 19:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

@If.mihai: Only "seems to be"? Please see WP:BLP, and therefore Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:55, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Cite needed on BLP

This article is has a good number of sources, if 'Haron was born Manteghi Bourjerdi[citation needed] in Iran' isn't sourced could it be edited back to 'Haron was born in Iran' or as per what is sourced? Alternatively, could source be added and cite needed removed, if reliable? AnonNep In short this is WP:BLP - if in doubt, cut it out. (talk) 17:24, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

As the hours have gone by and unsourced BLP tagged as [cite needed] remained in lede (and Infobox) - added to ANI (as comment) to existing section [7] and BLP Noticeboard[8]. AnonNep (talk) 19:58, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014

This man has been dead, I want to edit it. Ihaleem9 (talk) 19:26, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

@Ihaleem9: Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:52, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

@Redrose64: Replies there have gone unanswered for over two hours. This is a high profile page in the news and needs to be updated ASAP to be relevant. —sroc 💬 20:06, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014

Please add his death date, as he is reported dead. Keiiri (talk) 19:36, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

@Keiiri: Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

@Redrose64: Please see my detailed proposal with multiple reliable sources and quotes outlining the circumstances above. —sroc 💬 20:04, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Not gonna happen. Admins here should be embarrassed. 124.149.173.127 (talk) 20:16, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Gunman in 2014 Sydney hostage crisis dead

Monis confirmed to be shot dead by police on 16 December 2014. Location: Martin Place, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Yenwei (talk) 18:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't see where in the article it says he was shot dead, just that he was dead. I am going to deny this request in its present form. Please try to provide an addition that is wholly supported by multiple sources. Chillum 18:40, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Details may follow, but multiple reliable sources have confirmed Monis as dead for some time. This page will be highly visible. Can we at least add the date of death and shift the tense to the past tense for now, and add detail of the death when it is confirmed? —sroc 💬 18:46, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

This is unfortunately turning into a high-profile failure for Wikipedia at a time it should be providing value for money. It's been hours since reliable sources have identified him as the gunman fatally shot this morning. 124.149.173.127 (talk) 20:10, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, the article needs to be updated. Keiiri (talk) 20:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and in a hurry. Several admins have been alerted and this has been reported at:

• Wikipedia:Requests for page protection#Current requests for reduction in protection level
• Talk:Main Page#Errors in In the news
• User talk:HJ Mitchell#‎Man Haron Monis

Still waiting! —sroc 💬 20:26, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Sort order

The page currently sorts (in categories) as "Haron, Sheikh"...

The {{DEFAULTSORT:...}} parameter should be changed, but I am not sure to what. The listas value in the {{WikiProject Biography}} banner should be given the same value.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:26, 15 December 2014 (UTC).

 Done as Haron Monis, Man. Dwpaul ^Talk 21:17, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014 (death)

Man Haron Monis (1964–2014) was an Australian Muslim cleric originally from Iran.

...

On 15 December 2014, Monis took hostages in a siege at the Lindt Chocolate Cafe in Sydney, lasting until the early hours of the following morning; he was shot dead by police at the conclusion of the siege.

—sroc 💬 18:52, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

As of now, the police have only confirmed his death. There is still no statement about the cause of his death. It is still unclear whether he was shot by police or died at his own hand, for example. We should not jump to conclusions. Presumably the investigation into the cause of death is ongoing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlanSiegrist (talk • contribs) 20:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

The source says: "Two hostages and the gunman at the centre of a 16-hour siege at a cafe in Sydney's CBD have been shot dead, police have confirmed." —sroc 💬 21:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi sroc. Sorry to be so dense, but would you mind pointing out which source says that they were "shot dead? AlanSiegrist (talk) 22:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Look at the footnote 5 above which quotes the text containing the words "shot dead". This quote has been part of the cited footnote in the above section for hours, yet you still haven't read it? Maybe a quick find for "shot dead" would have found it instead of hassling me repeatedly. —sroc 💬 22:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I do not mean to hassle you. But your original statement "he was shot dead by police" is not supported by any of the sources cited. None of the sources claim that he was shot by police. Naturally, we can assume that, but we should not jump to such a conclusion. The modified statement that he was "shot dead" is supported by only the ABC News report. The other news sources merely state that the gunman and the hostages are "dead" or were "killed" but do not specifically state that they were "shot dead." The police themselves only confirm three deaths but not how they died. I believe it is Wikipedia policy to have statements supported by multiple sources, so I think that my objection is valid. I am trying to be consistent with the main Wikipedia article on the hostage situation. AlanSiegrist (talk) 23:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not require multiple sources, only reliable sources. One is generally enough, I was being redundant by providing multiple sources covering all aspects of the event in case admins had any doubt for WP:BLP reasons. I accept that it is not confirmed who fired the fatal shot, but it remains that there is a reliable source (ABC News is highly respected as not jumping to conclusions or racing to break stories first) citing police as confirming he was shot dead. If there are conflicting reports, however, then it would make sense to wait for the dust to settle. I'm just pleased the article at least acknowledges he is dead – that took way too long before that could be updated. —sroc 💬 23:14, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree completely with you on your frustration at the excessively long time that it took for the article to be unprotected so that it could be updated to reflect the fact that he was dead. I also wish that the local police would be more specific and quickly forthcoming about how exactly the gunman and hostages died, so we don't have to play this guessing game. But many news sources are in fact still just using words like "died" and "killed" in the confrontation, so what are we to do? AlanSiegrist (talk) 23:28, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, as important as it is to be current with the big picture stuff (e.g., he's dead), we can pick up the details later. Wikipedia is not a news service so we don't need to rush to reporting the latest developments, especially as things shift so rapidly. The conflict between these competing ideas always brings a bit of edit warring with big news events and the articles are a bit rough around the edges as they develop, but this one's been remarkably uncontroversial (aside from the delay). —sroc 💬 23:36, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I agree completely. By the way, I just read that one of the hostages apparently died of a heart attack en route to the hospital, so any reports that the gunman and the hostages were all "shot dead" might in fact be in error. AlanSiegrist (talk) 23:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

NSW Police Deputy Commissioner Catherine Burn just confirmed at a press briefing shown on ABC News 24 that a 50-year-old man (Haron) died at the scene (not at hospital). —sroc 💬 00:08, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 December 2014

The title 'Sheikh' has been deleted from the English, but is still in the Persian writing at the top-right corner. 'شيخ مأن هارون مؤنس' needs to be changed to 'مأن هارون مؤنس'. Thanks.

 Done I believe it is correct now, but please check my work as UTF characters behave a bit strangely in the editor. Dwpaul ^Talk 00:14, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Alternative names

Can someone more versed in alternative names for bios please add them in an appropriate way. It seems odd we've only just moved it from Sheikh Haron but don't include that less common alternate name. Widefox; talk 00:01, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Apparently his claim to be a sheikh was questionable at best, and I suspect we have felt it best not to substantiate it unless some reliable source does. What I was hoping was that you or someone would confirm that he should be referred to here as Haron rather than Monis, as sources seem to conflict on this point and I am not familiar with the conventions for Iranian names. Dwpaul ^Talk 00:06, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

It's really strange, 'Man Haron Monis' doesn't sound Iranian at all- I am familiar with Iranian names and it just sounds odd to me. That might be why people don't know what to make of it. Is it Iranian? Maybe I am wrong, though- it's just my opinion. Also could someone edit the Persian text on the page as I requested above? 86.184.43.165 (talk) 00:10, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

 Done but please check my work as UTF characters behave somewhat strangely in the editor here. Dwpaul ^Talk 00:17, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, it is right. 86.184.43.165 (talk) 00:19, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

We have sources for both alt names "who has also gone by the names of Sheikh Haron and Mohammad Hassan Manteghi" [9] . Widefox; talk 00:16, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

He was known by the name Sheikh Haron although it wasn't an accurate title, to wit:

• "Man Monis, also known as Sheik Haron, was sentenced on Friday..."
• "A self-acclaimed Muslim cleric accused of sending hate mail, says he has been misinterpreted. Man Monis, who is also known as Sheikh Haron allegedly sent letters..."
• "Man Monis, who is also known as Sheikh Haron, is charged..."

—sroc 💬 00:41, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Pictures of dead children on Haron's official website

I know WP:NOTCENSORED is a thing and all, but should there really be a link to webpage which has pictures of bloodied dead children at the top? Would it at least be appropriate to put a content warning on it or something pointing out the pictures of dead children? Because as it stands, it seems unfair to link pictures of dead children with no warning that pictures of dead children are being linked. Bosstopher (talk) 01:56, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I included a warning (Warning: Graphic images) when I linked to the Web site at archive.org. Dwpaul ^Talk 01:57, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, my fault. I have no clue how I didn't see that. Bosstopher (talk) 01:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you were looking while I was still in the process of adding the link (over several edits). Thanks for your (correct) suggestion. Dwpaul ^Talk 02:00, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Note that I object strongly to re-vitalising a link to the website. It serves no good purpose. satusuro 02:14, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

It is a primary source. As such, it should not be cited directly, but presumably will be helpful in better understanding what secondary sources have reported concerning his statements there. Dwpaul ^Talk 02:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

no overly supportive of archiving and resurrecting that website given its content but can accept that in these initial stages it makes sense as it holds information that may be of interest to some people. Within the context of the article though the site should be referred to as "personal website" not as "official website" as the second implies it being within an umbrella organisation or legal entity something we have no sourcing to support. Gnangarra 02:33, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

 Done Dwpaul ^Talk 02:36, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

This may be a useful source to add

Another source on his conflicts with police: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/16/world/asia/gunman-in-sydney-had-long-history-of-run-ins-with-the-law.html

Epicgenius (talk) 02:59, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

His dubious history

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234955751-sheikh-haron-nonsense/ Mporter (talk) 03:19, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

As a blog post, not a reliable source for citation, but thanks for the insight. Dwpaul ^Talk 03:21, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

It seems that he committed fraud in Iran, and then fled to Australia, under a persona ("Manteghi Boroujerdi") designed in imitation of a dissident ayatollah, a persona which was taken seriously enough to e.g. get him on Radio National[10] (this may be a transcript?[11]), but by the 00s, Shia religious leadership in Australia were asking for him to be investigated[12][13]. Mporter (talk) 03:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Cleric

Muslim cleric is a disambiguation page which simply says:

• Ulama for both Shia and Sunni
• Akhoond, Shia only
• Imam khatib, Sunni only

So, having converted from Shia to Sunni, which kind of cleric was he? Our link in the lead should be pipe linked to the right target article, if possible. —sroc 💬 08:09, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

That was a redirect for years until a few minutes ago. The new creation of a dab seems to be a problem, as a WP:DABCONCEPT appears to be required. I've reverted back to the redirect for now as Ulama seems to be the correct DABCONCEPT location. Widefox; talk 09:34, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Cleric?

The introduction refers to a "self-styled Muslim cleric". But the article makes no reference to Monis claiming to be a cleric.Royalcourtier (talk) 01:03, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I have removed it. Some media outlets have used the phrase "self-styled" but that has been disputed (see here). We generally don't use that sort of designation for religious figures on Wikipedia - everyone who considers themselves a cleric/pastor/preacher/etc. is usually accepted as such, since there is not usually a central register in most religions. StAnselm (talk) 10:36, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Monis is confirmed dead

The Sydney Morning Herald website reports that Monis is confirmed dead: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/martin-place-siege-what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-lindt-cafe-hostage-crisis-20141215-127thz.html -- Robster2001 (talk) 17:52, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

It does seem likely, but most news sites are still declaring this as "unconfirmed".  — Amakuru (talk) 18:28, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

It has been confirmed by several national news outlets:

<ref name=7-tragedy>{{cite news|title=Sydney siege ends in tragedy|url=https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/25772503/siege-situation-in-martin-place/|work=Yahoo!7 News|quote=Seven Network reporter Chris Reason.... said the two dead are the gunman and a hostage. The hostage was killed by the gunman.}}</ref><ref name=smh-blog>{{cite news|last1=Fallon|first1=Daniel|last2=Saulwick|first2=Jacob|title=Lindt Cafe hostage drama in Martin Place, Sydney: day two|url=http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/lindt-cafe-hostage-drama-in-martin-place-sydney-day-two-20141215-127suz.html|accessdate=15 December 2014|work=Sydney Morning Herald|date=16 December 2014|quote=Fairfax Media has been told that two people are dead, one of whom is the gunman, Man Haron Monis.}}</ref>

—sroc 💬 18:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Virginia Trioli on ABC News 24 just said police have not confirmed Monis is dead, the ABC has confirmed it themselves. —sroc 💬 18:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

"The gunman at the centre of a siege in Sydney's CBD has been confirmed dead after armed police stormed the cafe where he had been holding people hostage for more than 16 hours." ABC News. —sroc 💬 18:38, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

GOOD! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.9.151.254 (talk) 11:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

"Islam is the religion of peace and a Muslim should be a peace activist. Islam is against oppression and any unfair violence. Islam is against terrorism. As I have repeatedly said earlier: “this pen is my gun and these words are my bullets, I fight by these weapons against oppression to promote peace."" - Hypocrite, Murderer, and Thief — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.9.151.254 (talk) 12:02, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Edit request

Please add the category "Islamist terrorism in Australia" in line with the article about the siege. Juno (talk) 16:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Is it certain that his motivation was Islamist? All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:30, 15 December 2014 (UTC).

He wouldn't have asked for a ISIS flag otherwise... -- Milad A380 (talk) 16:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

He was flying the flag, and the media reports it as such. Juno (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

The flag that he was flying has been noted on the Sydney talkpage to be the Black Standard. In additon, a source will be needed for the edit request. --Super Goku V (talk) 23:57, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

He was a criminal first, as all news stories since the event have shown, it was not anything to do with islamist terrorism satusuro 00:03, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Past in Iran + Extradition request

https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/25790210/iran-raised-concerns-about-sydney-gunman/ This is a good source that can be used to update the article with. Also worth mentioning that he was running from charges of embezzlement and fraud when he fled to Australia, not because of his liberal interpretation of Quran or something else, safe to assume the part about his wife and children being held by Iran is as true as him being a secret intelligence officer of Iran (He had claimed this numerous times before). http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13930924001577 Add date for archive purposes. WWGB (talk) 03:24, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

"Rafidi" inappropriate term?

Can we check use of the word "Rafidi"? https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Rafida#Current
It's a derogatory term in the way that he uses it and we shouldn't just blindly quote from his website. At very least, it should be in quotation marks: "Rafidi"

It is a very derogatory term and is inappropriate without the use of quotation marks under all circumstances. Add date for archive purposes. WWGB (talk) 03:24, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Rafida

On his website he states "I used to be a Rafidi, but not anymore. Now I am a Muslim, Alhamdu Lillah

(December 2014) "

What he means is he used to be a shite but now is a sunni

In any case you have it too on the page, so what I suggest is that Rafidi be hyperlink as Rafidi BernardZ (talk) Add date for archive purposes. WWGB (talk) 03:24, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Controversial letter-writing campaign

I'm not sure about what the title for this section should be. As of this comment the title is "Hate mail campaign". Formerly there were scare quotes around the phrase "Hate mail". I don't think we should be using scare quotes in a section title, this is just a way to present non-neutral information without taking responsibility for it. However, without the scare quotes it seems like editorializing. Maybe someone can think of an alternative that adequately describes the nature of the letter-writing campaign without risking libel? Augurar (talk) 03:39, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

As I mentioned when I reverted your change to "Letter-writing campaign", which even you admitted sounds awfully benign, the term "Hate mail" was used by reliable sources at the time, e.g. [14]. The court also convicted him of "using a postal or similar service to menace, harass or cause offence", in effect a reasonable definition of the term "hate mail". Dwpaul ^Talk 04:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

In the US the phrase "hate mail" is a generic term with no legal connotations. Are things different in Australia? Juno (talk) 17:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Not as far as I know, it just strikes me as a bit more of an emotive term than is usual for Wikipedia. But perhaps there is no better alternative. Augurar (talk) 08:11, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Haron or Monis?

Please see Talk:2014 Sydney hostage crisis#Haron or Monis? for a discussion on the correct name to use for repeat references. —sroc 💬 12:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Droudis home raided

Please add this to the death section, thank you. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 04:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC) "After his death, police have raided a home linked to Man Haron Monis, where his girlfriend Amirah Droudis lives."

References

 Not done for now. How is this relevant to his death? It should be added to the 2014 Sydney hostage crisis article. Epicgenius (talk) 14:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for this, I've added it in successfully to that article. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 00:39, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Funny 110.20.234.69, I though I did that edit. [15] --220 of ^Borg 02:56, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that, I just wish I could edit the articles directly. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 20:08, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Gun license?

Please add the following to the page. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 06:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Western Australian Police have been contacted to comment on whether Monis had a gun license issued to him while he was living in Western Australia.

This would be suitable for the start of an 'Investigation" section. A few more details perhaps and a direct official link would be better than that particular source, I think. I find it amazing he had a security licence, even if it was about 14 years ago. One of the links in that source leads to a database enquiry that indicates this. --220 of ^Borg 08:28, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Nonetheless, it's a start. Perhaps this could also be added to such a section. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 20:06, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Tony Abbott was wrongly briefed that Monis had a gun license. In mid-2011, in an interview with police, Monis stated that he had had a gun license in the past, but it had expired, and that he no longer had access to firearms.

Further information! --110.20.234.69 (talk) 04:59, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

The Australian Federal Police was the source of the inaccurate information about Monis having a gun license.

References

Whatever the case, the correct spelling in Australian English is licence for the noun (license is a verb: you license someone by giving them a licence). —sroc 💬 05:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Cheers, I always get them mixed up. I'm sure the spelling can be fixed up once it's in the article, rather than languishing on this page. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 06:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

IP '110' Here's the AFP media release re the wrong advice, "... based on a manual entry in the National Police Reference System." Sounds like someone ticked the wrong box on a form. Θ 220 of ^Borg 08:39, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

References

Legal Threat

I received a legal threat from the Attorney Generals office & the NSW Department of Justice this threat has been referred to WMF Legal, in the threat it appears that multiple media outlet reports about the subject maybe be incorrectly using Wikipedia as the source for information I suggest that editors exercise care in relying solely on sources about the subject published since recent events. Gnangarra 04:38, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Why did they contact you, particuarly? StAnselm (talk) 04:59, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

The legal threat has been "withdrawn". @StAnselm:There are more details, at Talk:2014 Sydney hostage crisis#Legal Threat.
To your query, Gnangarra said 'over there': "... because Wikimedia Australia(I'm current Vice President)was contacted" . --220 of ^Borg 12:31, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Official website

This site has been "suspended" for "Violation of Terms of Use." (I'm surprised there's a clause about taking hostages...)

Perhaps we should remove our link to it. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:42, 15 December 2014 (UTC).

There is an archived version of the site, including the last few "rants" or posts prior to his actions yesterday. Would that be appropriate to post or mention? FriarTuck1981

@FriarTuck1981: In case you haven't noticed, its been on the page for some time. --220 of ^Borg 11:43, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

þ;Pics on Monis website 'Bogus' ?

The photo on the website was originally taken in Syria and first posted on the 19th October 2012 on the Moheet news website and is now archived here (http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/photos-of-syrian-massacres-recycled-as-gaza-atrocities/2012/11/18/) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.2.17.89 (talk) 03:37, 19 December 2014 ‎

@Rich Farmbrough:The pics are allegedly actually of people killed in Syria when bombed by Assads forces, not in Gaza as alleged. Per above source:" ...it was found that the photo had been originally published on a news site based in Dubai, United Arab Emirates called Moheet one month earlier on October 19. On the Moheet website, the photo was titled “Syria killed 122 Friday…Assad Used Cluster Bombs.” and " The photo had in fact been taken in the Dar al Shifa Hospital in Aleppo, Syria "--220 of ^Borg 11:43, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not surprised, people do this stuff on the Internet all the time. Thanks for pinging me, but I'm not really in a conversation about the content, that message was from an IP who was already aware of the provenance of the photos. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 13:32, 19 December 2014 (UTC).

Yeh, I knew that! It was more in the context of possibly an additional reason to remove the link, as you suggested. Þ 220 of ^Borg 15:51, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Personal website

Why do links to Monis' personal website include this: "Warning: Graphic images"? As a matter of policy, Wikipedia is not censored, and "some articles may include images, text or links that are relevant to the topic but that some people find objectionable." —sroc 💬 07:35, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, not censored, but I think it is wise to warn people. After all, the 'content' isn't on Wikipedia. Censorship would be to remove the link to the archived web page. ф 220 of ^Borg 08:45, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia already has a content disclaimer. We provide all kinds of images, spoilers, etc., without added warning. Why should we make an exception in this case? —sroc 💬 09:03, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

You can remove it if you want, unless there's a consensus somewhere else about adding it. Perhaps this discussion should have been at the top of the page at Talk:Man Haron Monis#Official website? It now seems very possible that the pictures are not what they are purported to be. ie. the results of bombing in Gaza IIRC, but the actions of Bashar al-Assads forces in Syria. ∞ 220 of ^Borg 12:11, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

There is, in fact, consensus in the guideline No disclaimers in articles. There are possible legal implications, amongst other reasons, not to include specific content disclaimers. —sroc 💬 12:20, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

That is about article disclaimers. The same logic may apply to external links,or it may not. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 14:29, 19 December 2014 (UTC).

Actually, it's a guideline, not an article, and it applies to all content in articles, including links. —sroc 💬 15:26, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

He didn't say it's an article, he said it's about "article disclaimers" (i.e. disclaimers about article content as opposed to disclaimers about external links). In any case, the guideline about Wikipedia not being censored says that guideline does also apply to links. There is no guideline that says disclaimers should be used even for external links, so there isn't any requirement for such a warning.--Jeffro77 (talk) 15:54, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, Rich Farmbrough; I did indeed mis-read your comment. Thanks, Jeffro77; I am indeed due for sleep. —sroc 💬 16:29, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

The previous discussion on adding the warning can be seen here: Talk:Man Haron Monis/Archive 1#Pictures of dead children on Haron's official website. Hope this helps. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 20:18, 19 December 2014 (UTC) Edit to that lk for readability 220 of ^Borg

Yes, 110 that was helpful (or should I call you '69'? ) Just a discussion, no real consensus, but the guidelines certainly say "no disclaimers", and the graphic images warnings have already been removed. Which I agree with, given what the policy/guidelines state. § 220 of ^Borg 04:55, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Change the automatic archiving?

Could we change the automatic archiving to a longer period of time now? That might be helpful, given that it isn't generating as much discussion now that the clamps are off the article. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 20:40, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Magistrates and lawyers receive death threats

From the Sydney siege article: "A magistrate who had granted Monis bail and the lawyers who had represented him in his court appearances received death threats in the days after the attack. This reaction was described by the Bar Association as "understandable but wrong-headed", as magistrates have to deal with cases as they come before them on the basis of the law at the time."

Is this relevant for this page? --110.20.234.69 (talk) 20:47, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

its not an entirely accurate description of what occurred, but its not really directly relevant to the context of this article. Gnangarra 05:22, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

References

Article for Amirah Droudis?

What's the threshold for Amirah Droudis getting her own Wikipedia article? --110.20.234.69 (talk) 22:43, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

See WP:BIO and WP:BLP. I suspect that she doesn't warrant an article though per WP:ONEEVENT. Nick-D (talk) 00:39, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'm not really sure how to apply BIO and BLP to a hypothetical article on Droudis. She is not notable for just one event, though - in addition to the investigations into Monis, Droudis also murdered her partner's ex-wife, and was a co-defendant in the hate mail case. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 02:04, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Its a wait and see if something new develops but as it stands all of her activities are associated with Haron, without Haron we wouldnt be considering an article at all. Gnangarra 02:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

110.20.234.69 (talk · contribs) from 5 April 2013‎ we did have an Amirah Droudis article. It was shortly thereafter turned into a re-direct here. 220 of ^Borg 13:05, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Monis granted bail under new laws

In the Sydney siege article, there is an emphasis on Monis having been granted bail under the new laws, the Bail Act 2013. (Draft:Bail Act 2013) "On 14 April 2014 Monis was charged with three sexual assault offences of a woman and remanded in custody. He was granted bail on 26 May, six days after bail laws in New South Wales were rewritten based on recommendations by the New South Wales Law Reform Commission.[71] On 10 October he was charged with another 40 sexual assault offences of six women, and his bail was continued.[8] After the attack, the revelation that the new law had allowed Monis to be granted bail sparked calls to re-tighten the law,[72] but a review had already been conducted in the wake of earlier controversial bail releases, with the new law set to take effect 28 January 2015.[73]" In this article, there is no such emphasis on the new laws. Why is this the case, and does it need fixing? --110.20.234.69 (talk) 21:23, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

First sentence

Per WP:LEADSENTENCE, the first sentence should aim to indicate the subject's notability. The current first sentence has been changed to "Man Haron Monis ... was an Iranian-born Australian citizen". This incorrectly implies that Monis was notable as an Australian citizen, whereas his actual notability is criminal activity.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:48, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

unproven facts stated in Wikipedia voice

Please see the related discussion on the Sydney hostage situation article

Here the problem is "On 15 December 2014, Monis took hostages in a siege at the Lindt Chocolate Café at Martin Place, Sydney" and any others I haven't ready through the entire article. --Eng. M.Bandara-Talk 17:14, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

This editor has started an identical discussion at Talk:2014 Sydney hostage crisis#unproven facts stated in Wikipedia voice where the consensus has been that the material is fine Nick-D (talk) 20:26, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

How is it a problem to report that this event happened? Legacypac (talk) 07:49, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Structure of the first 4 sections of the article

Currently the first 4 sections of the article are non-chronological and repetitious. It might be better if the article could be structured, possibly along the lines: Lede, 1 Life in Iran, 1.1 Claims relating to Iranian Intelligence, 1.2 Claims as a tourist agent, 1.3 Claims relating to detention, 1.4 Claims relating to Interpol, 1.5 Criminal record in Iran, 2 Migration and life in Australia, ( then, as now is ) 3 Allegations of fabricated cleric status, 4 Hate mail campaign, 5 Court cases, 6 Murder charge, 7 Sexual assault charges, 8 Alleged conversion to Sunni Islam (including the earlier para, "He had been a Shiite Muslim until . . .") BruceSpider (talk) 10:28, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Sounds a great idea BruceSpider-I was about to remove some repetition but your ideas are more thorough-going.DadaNeem (talk) 23:39, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Funeral?

There is nothing about the ultimate disposal of his body. The media reported in December that no-one had claimed the body, and that if no-one did so he would be given a "destitute funeral" at state expense. Does anyone know if this actually happened? Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 08:11, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Buried in New South Wales apparently. Hack (talk) 09:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I will add something to the article. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 05:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Best image to use?

This article, as well as two others (notably the 2014 Sydney hostage crisis), use this photograph of Monis, under Fair Use. Because it's Fair Use, we have the ability to "pick" the most appropriate portrait photograph to represent the subject of this biography. There are many to chose from - here's a google image search for his name. I note that the one we have chosen is the only one where he is shouting and the only one where arabic script is visible (on his hat). It is the image that is most used in the mainstream media - both because it is the most visually arresting image and possibly there is a causative-loop with our using the image too. I think that by our choosing the most "aggressive" image we are perpetuating a particular narrative rather that letting our readers make up their own mind based on the sources. By comparison - look at the lead image in the Osama bin Laden article - a seated portrait (where he's even smiling!) not one of the many available photographs where he's preaching, or with a gun or in military uniform etc...

I would like to suggest that we should replace the current image with an photograph that better fits our encyclopedic policy of Neutrality - this one, for example. Wittylama 12:50, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree, but do not just complain, do it. Pick an image that you like and either just put it in the article or put it here in the talk for further discussion. Tuntable (talk) 03:42, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree too. I will change the picture. Pahlevun (talk) 16:03, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

@Pahlevun: where was the image sourced from? Is he still (as stated here in the image caption) at the protest in Lakemba? I can't work this out from the image description page, because it links directly to the image, not to the news article it seems to have come from. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 09:02, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

terrorist?

In the Sydney siege article, it states that the event was not a terrorist attack, and as such I removed the "see also" that links to terrorism from this article too. If he has engaged in terrorist activity other than the event that claimed his life, it may be okay to refer to him as a terrorist. Mister Sneeze A Lot (talk) 03:51, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Monis's life in Iran

Why was this edit undone? All of the information I added was cited from the source. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 08:15, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me. It was a mistake. Pahlevun (talk) 11:35, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! --110.20.234.69 (talk) 02:08, 17 September 2015 (UTC)