Talk:Magnus Hirschfeld

Weber?

I seriously doubt Carl Maria von Weber ever signed that petition, as he was quite dead at the time.

Please sign contributions to talk pages by adding -~~~~ at the end.

So it would seem. Anyone know of some sources where we can dig up info on who died when, signed what, was or perhaps was not alive at what time? -Seth Mahoney 02:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Just goes to show you can't trust everything you read on the internet! I have to offer my apologies, it was me who added that list of names. I take it there's only one Carl Maria von Weber? I got the names from this site by Jim Kepner, the Founder of ONE Institute's International Gay and Lesbian Archives. I should have been more cautious, especially when sevel of the names in Kepner's list have spelling errors! Here are two other lists of names on the petition by different authors; I will remove any names that are not on all three lists.

[1] Albert Einstein, Leo Tolstoy, Emile Zola, Kathe Kollwitz, Hermann Hesse, Thomas Mann, Rainer Maria Rilke, August Bebel, Karl Kautsky, Rudolf Hilferding, Gerhardt Hauptman and Eduard Bernstein.

[2] Albert Einstein, Léon Tolstoï, Hermann Hesse, Rainer Maria Rilke, Stefan Zweig, Thomas Mann, Emile Zola, Richard von Krafft-Ebing, Sigmund Freud, et Max Brod.

This leaves: Albert Einstein, Hermann Hesse, Thomas Mann, Rainer Maria Rilke. I think we can also add Leo Tolstoy, as Kepner mentions him as a signatory elsewhere in his article and it is corroborated by the other two. -ntennis 08:20, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Of course, it wasn't the composer Carl Maria VON Weber who signed the petition, but the activist and expressionist author Carl Maria Weber (1890-1953). Soczyczi 14:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I haven't signed since I don't have an account on the English-language Wikipedia, and only contribute very occasionally. I'm a regular contributor on the Hebrew Wikipedia, where my username is Aviad2001. I noticed the error since I'm currently translating this article (and the one in the German Wikipedia) into Hebrew. 88.111.162.200 21:46, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

BTW, Richard Plant, in The Pink Triangle mentions Buber and Bebel as signatories as well. 88.111.162.200 21:53, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

The petition and the problems in assessing who signed it have been treated in an article in the German gay history magazine Capri. Zeitschrift für schwule Geschichte (Nr. 37, May 2005). In 30 years, about 6000 people appear to have signed the petition. Not all of the names have been published, only a selection. Signatures have been published in some 8 lists a.o. in gay magazines, like the Jahrbuch für sexuelle Zwischenstufen and Die Freundschaft. These lists, comprising 2486 names, have been reprinted in this issue of Capri.

Of the abovementioned names, Tolstoy, Zola and Freud are not in the lists. However, the petition has been signed by Carl Maria Weber (not the composer (1783-1826), but the expressionist poet (1890-1953) - himself a homosexual, see Carl Maria Weber in the German Wikipedia), Albert Einstein, Käthe Kollwitz, Thomas (and Heinrich) Mann, Rainer Maria Rilke, August Bebel, Max Brod, Karl Kautsky, Rudolf Hilferding (??? why he?) Stefan Zweig, Gerhart Hauptmann, Martin Buber, Richard von Krafft-Ebing and Eduard Bernstein. Soczyczi 00:00, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I changed the text according to this, but left out Hilferding and Weber, because they are not very well known like the others. I also left out the remark about the signatories not coming out for their homosexuality, because as far as we know none of these was homosexual. They did sign the petition because they were against the injustice, not because of their own identity. Soczyczi 22:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Hirschfeld a transvestite?

I wonder where to find proof of Hirschfeld being himself a transvestite. Any pictures? Soczyczi 14:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

"Tante ('aunt') was a German slang expression for a gay man " it is not Tante (aunt) but Tunte. A Tunte does not need to dress as a woman, also there is a German movie called Charlie's Tante, that deals with a Tunte wearing female clothes. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Charley%27s_Aunt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:EC0:57E8:984E:46AA:2DAA:EDB1 (talk) 14:32, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

About a week ago, I asked the first author of this Hirschfeld article, Danny, on his talk page about the source of Hirschfeld's transvestism and also about the source for Hirschfeld being openly gay and participating in the gay subculture. I didn't find any material about this in the various English and German biographies of Hirschfeld. There are several known instances of Hirschfeld showing gay bars and transvestite festivities to distinguished guests (for instance Arnold Aletrino in 1903), but that's not ‘’participating’’. That Hirschfeld was called 'Auntie Magnesia' or 'Magnolia' has been documented, but certainly not that it was his name as a transvestite!

The very moment his colleagues or his many readers would know Hirschfeld was openly gay or even a transvestite, no one would take him seriously anymore.

I asked one of Hirschfeld's biographers, Manfred Herzer, to comment on his participation in the German gay subculture, and on his supposed transvestism. Herzer thought both assumptions nonsense. There's some comment by Herzer on Hirschfeld's sexuality in the newest issue of the German gay history magazine Capri. Zeitschrift für schwule Geschichte (Nr. 39, December 2006). According to this, Hirschfeld was homosexual, but certainly never openly gay. I am going to delete these lines in the article in one or two days, unless any of you come up with some substantiation. Soczyczi 17:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

There needs to be a statement in this Wikipedia entry as to whether or not Dr. Hirschfeld was Gay. It is very odd to find nothing at all about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.173.136.176 (talk) 17:51, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Lili Elbe

Hirschfield performed the first Sex Reassignment Surgery in the world on Lili Elbe, but it is not mentioned here ??? Fluffball70 07:56, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Hirschfeld did not perform the first sex reassignment surgery. Hirschfeld was a medical doctor, but not a surgeon. He tested Elbe by psychologically questioning her thoroughly before the operation, but the operation was carried out by others. Soczyczi 02:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Grantham Oral History of Anal Sex?

Does such a book actually exist? I was unable to find any information on it anywhere.

Hello Anonymous, quite right, the book doesn't exist as far as I could fathom. The title was added last November by 24.60.163.16, who calls himself Tonganoxie Jim and has a bit of a reputation of vandalism. I'm going to remove the reference. Soczyczi 10:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You have to admit "An Oral History of Anal Sex" has a clever ring to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.115.185.4 (talk) 20:56, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

German-Jewish in lead

I changed this per wp:mosbio. How is his being Jewish relevant to the subject's notability? Please put that material under family backround, ect.Thanks, --Tom 20:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Please do not delete material from articles; if you don't like it where it is, move it. Thanks.--Runcorn 14:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Runcorn, sorry for my tirst edit summary, I miss read you. Where should I move that material to? I see to many bios where ethnicity in my opinion is "forced" into the bio and looks out of place. Anyways, --Tom 14:48, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

That's up to you - start a new section if necessary.--Runcorn 19:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, is that better? --Tom 20:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Tom, I am most grateful to you for your courtesy.--Runcorn 21:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey Runcorn, no problem. Again, if you see ANY edit I make that you question, just let me now on the article's talk page on my talk and will work it out. Cheers! --Tom 15:18, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I incorporated that tiny paragraph 'Ethnicity' into an expanded introduction. I think it's better now. Soczyczi 18:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Beginnings of the Scientific Humanitarian Committee

It really is a mistake to think that Adolf Brand and Friedlaender were among the founders of the WhK (SHC). Brand had his own magazine, Der Eigene (1896-1932), and later his own movement, Die Gemeinschaft der Eigenen. Brand not always opposed Hirschfeld, but he certainly never was much attached to the SHC. Friedlaender (1866-1908) donated a lot of money to the WHC before he started his own short-lived movement in 1906, but he was not one of the founders. The birth of the SHC has been told by Hirschfeld in a graphic way (in his autobiographical series Von einst bis jetzt): each of the four founders, Hirschfeld, Oberg, Spohr and Bülow put some gold coins on a table, Bülow twice as much as the others (he was a nobleman and presumably rich). That was the founding of the SHC, on May 15, 1897. Soczyczi 21:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Image:§Hirschfeld, Magnus (1868-1935) -1900.jpg

Why is this picture deleted ? It is in 1900 taken and older than 100 years..so there shoul no problems with personality-rights ? GLGerman 07:15, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Sources?

I've been googling around and looking through Wikipedia trying to find sources on the material about Hirschfeld's early opposition to Paragraph 175. It's mentioned in a few places here on WP, but it isn't sourced in any of them! Can anyone help out? Dybryd (talk)

Hello Dybryd, if you don't find it on the net, try books. Some easy accessable books are Who's Who in Gay & Lesbian History (Vol. I) by Robert Aldrich & Garry Wotherspoon (Routledge, 2001), with a succinct and informative article about Hirschfeld, and The Homosexual Emancipation Movement in Germany, a little book by James D. Steakley (1975), which though old may tell you everything you want to know. Also, the bibliography by Steakley mentioned in the literature section has a first publication of Hirschfeld against Paragraph 175 in 1897 - it's the Parliament petition, the first and foremost goal of the SHC. Glatisant (talk) 15:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

There is mention of this here: [3], but in terms of his extending the work of Ulrichs, etc. - MishMich - Talk - 22:47, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Identifying Dustin Goltz in lede

User:James Cantor removed a statement in the intro stating Hirschfeld is a noted advocate for gay and trans rights, asking in the edit summary "Is there an RS to support a different way to express this?" After I added an RS to support that exact way to express this, James Cantor added the author's name in the body of the text. We typically identify an author by occupation, so I added the word "scholar." James Cantor claimed scholar is a "peakcock" term and removed it. Here's Goltz' web page at DePaul University. I am open to other ways of identifying him, but scholar seemed the simplest and certainly not a peacock term. This all feels very WP:POINTy, but I am seeking additional opinions on if we should name Goltz, if we should identify him by occupation, and if so, how we should describe him. Comments welcome. Jokestress (talk) 03:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

First to use "Racism" in a book title.

To my knowledge Mr Hirschfeld was the first writer to use the term racism in a book title. --41.151.36.53 (talk) 19:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Personal life?

Is there any more information on his personal life? Buried in the movie section is a mention of one man who became his lover. But did Hirschfeld ever marry or have children? Any long-term relationships? I'm just curious about his domestic situation and it seems like this bio is mostly focused on his professional achievements and has very little about the man himself. 63.143.236.244 (talk) 21:39, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Mentioned in an episode of Real Sex on HBO

The sex museum/theater built in his honor was featured in an episode of real sex on hbo

"Season 1, Episode 19: Real Sex 19 7 February 1998 Down 'n' Dirty; Miss Black Nude: Going Tropical; Mail-Order Fantasies; Doktor Hirschfeld's Museum of Sexology."

the episode specifically has a really good portraying the museum where they serve aphrodisiac food and have sexually diverse performances

Episode citation:

Good place to draw info on what the museum is like :http://www.sfgate.com/performance/article/Sex-Museum-Beats-A-Path-to-the-Erotic-2831440.php — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.33.149.134 (talk) 07:02, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

References

Socialism

This article is filed under "German Socialists", and Hirschfeld is referenced in places such as Socialism_and_LGBT_rights#Germany as being a socialist himself, in addition to being a big influence on how Socialists perceived homosexuality. Within the article body there is currently no reference to his connection with the SPD. I would add over the information from this article, but it appears that no direct source in given in the other article either. Could anyone help find one so the relevant information can be moved over?

The Hirschfeld section in the other article:

"The leading figure of the LGBT movement in Germany from the turn of the 20th century until the Nazi government came to power in 1933 was undoubtedly Magnus Hirschfeld. Hirschfeld, who was also a socialist and supporter of the Women's Movement, formed the Scientific-Humanitarian Committee to campaign against German Penal Code Section 175 which outlawed male-male sex. Hirschfeld's organisation did a deal with the SPD (of which Lassalle and Schweitzer had been members) to get them to put forward a bill in the Reichstag in 1898, but it was opposed in the Reichstag and failed to pass. Most of Hirschfeld's circle of homosexual activists had socialist politics, including Kurt Hiller, Richard Linsert, Johanna Elberskirchen and Bruno Vogel. After the toppling of the German monarchy, the struggle against § 175 was continued by some social democrats. The German Minister of Justice Gustav Radbruch, member of the Social Democratic Party, tried to erase the paragraphe from the German penal law. However, his efforts were to no avail." Chilltherevolutionist (talk) 10:27, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of Hirschfeld's views

The section on the Scientific Humanitarian Committee reads: "Within the group, some of the members rejected Hirschfeld's (and Ulrichs's) view that male homosexuals are by nature effeminate." Hirschfeld did not hold this view: to quote directly from The Transvestites, he asserts that "not all homosexuals are effeminate" and "not all effeminate men are homosexual." (This appears on pg. 29 of Stryker's Transgender Studies Reader.) Vdzk

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NOT ABOUT EXTERNAL LINK; BUT ABOUT THE NOTES: → Just noticed that there is no information about the reference to Bauer 2007. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.183.130.252 (talk) 12:14, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

How is his Jewishness relevant while his sexuality is irrelevant?

He was a LGBT activist and was a sexologist. Still mentioning he was gay, which in this context clearly is relevant, was removed. Meanwhile people think it is important that he is German or a Jew? What!?--84.150.226.131 (talk) 12:11, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

incomplete reference/footnotes "Bauer 2007"

There are 50 mentions no this page of the source "Bauer 2007" however no further detail is provided. Searching online I find [Magnus Hirschfeld: Sexualidentität und Geschichtsbewußtsein. Eine dritte Klarstellung](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324030671_Magnus_Hirschfeld_Sexualidentitat_und_Geschichtsbewusstsein_Eine_dritte_Klarstellung), by J. Edgar Bauer, June 2007. Full text available but it's in German, which I don't understand so I am not able to determine if this is the correct reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bāḏinjān (talk • contribs) 02:59, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:25, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Lying by omission, or merely the lack of a criticsm section?

This page is interesting (as is a page it links to on Hirschfeld's clinic). Interesting because of what the pages haven't mentioned. Their page on the clinic omits the fact that one surgeon was Erwin Gohrbandt, a psychopath who went on to experimenting on captives of the Nazi concentration camps.

Magnus Hirschfeld championed eugenics.

In 1931 he visited Paul Popenoe and Ezra Gosney in America, fellow champions of sterilisation for the “feeble-minded”. He was apparently greeted “like an old friend… we have studied for 25 years”. Both men were racists and white supremacists.

Hirschfield praised them as being in “the vanguard of improving humanity by sterilising unfit men and women”. Their research was to provide the model for the introduction of the Nazis’ compulsory sterilisation program just two years later in 1933. He encouraged voluntary sterilisation and castration, particularly for gay men. He was also open to forced sterilisations for the ‘feeble-minded’ and oversexed, as well as the disabled.

Why are these matters missing from the page on Hirschfeld and the page on his clinic? Surely they are essential in creating a full picture of things? Charliepenandink (talk) 01:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

This sounds a lot like the nonsense that has been circulating on social media in recent hours in a desperate attempt to distract from a certain author posting holocaust denying claims. If you have picked this up from that discourse then I'd advise you to treat it all with extreme caution. Of course, if you have any genuinely Reliable Sources to support any of this, and they actually support it directly, not by means of original synthesis, then we can consider those but we are certainly not going to engage in revisionism that would serve to legitimise the Gay Nazis myth. DanielRigal (talk) 03:39, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Well thank you to both of you.

My response is largely directed to DanielRigal.

Yes, one was reminded of the debate by the recent online discussion around JK Rowling and trans history related to the nazis. Unfortunately and respectfully, pointing this out doesn't exactly make you Sherlock Holmes...

Now, one could reply by saying that Rowling wasn't posting holocaust denying claims, and that she'd be horrified at the thought, and that - on the contrary - she is more concerned by trans activists trying to twist history. If I understand correctly, she is less concerned with trans people, and more with trans activists.

But (even though it was you that brought her up, however cryptically) I'll not lean into that.

Frankly the thing that's more concerning is you saying that it sounds like "nonsense" (suggesting you've already made you mind up), and then patronisingly implying that I'd "picked it up". That kind of thing is worrying, as you clearly need reminding not to use Wikipedia as a place for your ideology, or for any misguided attempts to talk down to people. Respectfully again, you're not great at it, and this website simply isn't your soapbox.

To the matter at hand - one was first interested in this due to the 2022 Laurie Marhoefer book "Racism and the Making of Gay Rights: A Sexologist, His Student, and the Empire of Queer Love"

https://utorontopress.com/9781487523978/racism-and-the-making-of-gay-rights/

(A quick reminder that the book precedes the recent debate by, er, 2 years).

In the book the (Jewish) writer Marhoefer discusses how Hirschfeld was loathed by the Nazis, but was just as guilty within Germany for feeding the obsession with "improving" the species. Marhoefer reveals Hirschfeld argued homosexuality was Nature's way to prevent bad genes being passed on. For example, gays must not procreate...

Unwittingly, Hirschfeld gave credence to the Nazi conviction that gays were a threat to racial purity.

Interestingly, some might suggest that this is similar to how some trans activists wants to sterilise gay and lesbian youth.

Anyway, I'm a Brit and I loathe nazis.

Respectfully to Americans, I don't see everything in a binary political way. I see nuance in most things. Luckily over in the UK we generally don't have far-right people in Nazi-like uniforms walking around with firearms - I do of course understand that having this sort of thing on your doorstep can make people rather fervent, and can cloud their judgement. Now I'd assumed you were an American due to your evident difficulty hiding your politics, so very briefly checked and was surprised to see you're also a Brit. Your page clearly shows that you have some kind of ideology that fits current (rapidly shifting) trends when it comes to gender politics, so it might be prudent for you to avoid pages like this, as cold encyclopaedic objectivity won't, of course, be your strong point, will it?

Again, unlike you, respectfully, I don't have a political "side". However, if I see a mob picking on somebody, I'm possibly more inclined to investigate their view. If that mob are also following some online political "trend" I'm more inclined to examine the opposite view. After all, trends change. I certainly old enough not to get my morality or beliefs from undergraduate trends.

I'd never heard of the "Gay Nazis myth" you mentioned, but it's truly depressing that people believe such gibberish. I don't see how having a little more criticism of Hirschfeld's beliefs in the article would lead to legitimising this "Gay Nazis myth" though. Frankly making a connection between those two things is quite bizarre and respectfully a tad conspiracy-like.

So yes, the glowing, uncritical discussion on Hirschfeld led me to the article here.

This must happen rather often at Wikipedia, where a recent discussion brings people to a page, so again, mentioning this is superfluous.

I'm really not active here and have no desire to change the article - hence me, er, not changing it, and merely pointing out in the talk section that the article could at least be less glowing.

Still, I'm more like Groucho when it comes to the Wikipedia club.

Chaste Krassley at least is more open to change (thank you again for your response). I couldn't really care either way, and you seem to want to leave the article as it as: a hagiography.

I'll not return to this page as (and this should be clear by now...) I find the amateur politics to be bit naff, frankly. Charliepenandink (talk) 22:11, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Should we also take out the stuff about George Washington and Thomas Jefferson being slaveholders from their wiki articles? After all, we can't have the reputations of our beloved heroes being dragged through the mud with factually accurate information. And many of the people pointing out out those facts are pursuing a political agenda.HangingChad13 (talk) 19:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@Charliepenandink I don't see an issue necessarily with including reference to his eugenicist beliefs, but it's extremely important to observe WP:WEIGHT given it has the potential to stray into holocaust revisionism. Eugenics was not a significant part of either his research or the medical practice of his institute, and to the extent reliable secondary sources on Hirschfeld do raise it, it is most commonly regarding his work against scientific racism. Describing him as having 'championed eugenics' is nonsense, as is attempting to associate him with Gohrbandt (who did not work at the institute) for having performed surgeries for one of Hirschfeld's colleagues, or with Popenoe and Gosney for his having once visited them. Chaste Krassley (talk) 08:39, 14 March 2024 (UTC)