Talk:Magic in Middle-earth/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Should definitely talk about the fact there isn't very much 'magic' in the modern day conception of magic that is actually performed in M-e but most of the 'magic' is actually the wise beings using language to move people to action. I might pop back in and drop off a few reference articles for you. 67.186.57.207 (talk) 10:27, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

It eould be good to mention the example of gandalf using magic to kill the goblins in the hobbit, when they kidnapped the dwarevs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Myron Mumbles (talk • contribs) 04:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

First of all, thank you very much for writing this page. Second of all, it does indeed need heavy editing. Fewer examples of magic and more discussion of the distinctions between magic in Middle-earth and magic elsewhere would be good. --Adanadhel 14:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think that we should create subheadings with sections on different aspects of magic in Middle-Earth (eg, Magic of the Wizards as opposed to the magic of Sauron). Hoyohoyogold 06:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, the Wizards/Istari are generally considered to be Maiar (Olorin is for sure, at any rate) and hence of comparable class as Sauron. But then there is the magic of the Elves, and the Ents, and even the Dunedain, not to mention characters like Tom Bombadil. Anyway, I think some different headings in there would be a good idea. I'll get around to them if I can. Adanadhel 06:55, 09 January 2007

The article definitely needs to be more structured, with suitable headings. Also, there seems to be some confusion within the article between magic and supernatural phenomena. For example, the penultimate paragraph describes the powers of the Valar and Eru as being supernatural but not magical, but earlier the article states that "the moon-runes and its response to a password are supernatural and thereby magical", implying that supernatural powers are a subset of magic. This is inconsistent. A decision needs to be made about what exactly constitutes "magic" for the purposes of this article. —Slowspace 00:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

It would also be good to cover the leader of the Ringwraiths. He is described as being a sorcerer when King in Angmar *before* he becomes a wraith. At the Bruinen ford, he's able to break Frodo's barrow-sword with a gesture, and issue mental commands. Another example of magic from LOTR is in Moria, where Gandalf speaks a "word of command" to hold the door of Balin's tomb shut, and receives a kind of counter-spell from the Balrog. Also, the customers in the Prancing Pony think that Frodo might be a traveling conjurer, which maybe indicates presence of real conjurers in the LOTR world (or maybe not). Magic items are of course common in LOTR, such as Boromir's horn (apparently made by Vorondil, a human), and the toys for Bilbo's party, which are described as "obviously magical", as I recall. The reviving drink and medicinal paste of the Orcs also seem magical. Certain Elvish phrases often have a magical effect, e.g. "Elbereth" hurting the Ringwraiths, even when spoken by a Hobbit. Mujokan 05:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that magic can be considered there to be performed by the will. The One Ring had its own evil will. The other Rings of Power could also influence their owners. I think that magical properties of elven swords was given to them in similar way by their creators and forging of Rings of Power was an extention of this form of "magic". 195.150.224.33 15:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Elven magic?

Do the elves of Middle-earth possess any magic at all? If so, perhaps it should be added to the article. Aidoflight 00:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

an inherent mess

Is such a long list of random examples really useful? I suppose we can't do much else, as Tolkien apparently never explicitly defined principles of magic. If I were writing my own essay on the subject I might summarize magic as consisting mostly of what happens when Ainur (and sometimes High Elves) cajole nature. —Tamfang (talk) 07:08, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Appeared quite random. But I don't think the article should be deleted, but should be expanded, organized, and made as complete as possible. It's made difficult since Tolkien's view of magic evolved over time. I know I certainly don't have the expertise to take it on.Onel5969 (talk) 13:12, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Revisiting the article now, having added some scholarly materials, the 2014 remarks remain entirely valid. The article is basically "inside-out", being a fan-type list of what Tolkien produced, without thought to what those products might indicate about his purpose, nor their origins, nor what use they actually have in the novel. What is needed, I think, is to collapse the fan-description which currently takes up most of the article into a couple of tables, namely who uses magic, and the magical devices, and then to expand the almost-missing analysis into a proper section that uses the available scholarly sources to describe what it's for and what it does for the reader. And then the article will, certainly, look and feel quite different. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:55, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, it turned out to be quite simple to do, and most of the scholarly materials were readily to hand too. I hope everyone agrees it works a bit better now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:30, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Greek words

My dictionary (Liddell & Scott) defines γοητεία goēteía as 'juggling, cheatery', and μαγεία mageía as 'the theology of the Magians' (a Median tribe); there's a related verb defined as 'to be a Magus, use magic arts' or 'to call forth by magic arts'. Is there another (bigger?) dictionary giving definitions more consistent with Tolkien's usages here? —Tamfang (talk) 18:26, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

word-as-word, and stuff like that Copyedit (minor)

“ [Patrick Curry] argued that Tolkien felt the need for a magical cosmology [...] to counter modernity's "war against mystery and magic". He observed that Tolkien considered "magic" something negative [...]. Such magic contrasts with the "enchantment" [...] which he saw as a form of pure art and an appreciation of the wonders of the world. In a draft of a letter, Tolkien distinguished these two kinds of magic with the Greek words μαγία magia ('magic') and γοητεία goeteia ('sorcery'), respectively. ”

Onel5969 dislikes the quote-marks in the second and third quoted sentences and of the italics in the last.

The quote-marks on "magic" and "enchantment" help to emphasize that these are the words that T used for the distinction. (By the way, why is "magic" desirable in the first sentence and not in the second?)

The italics are necessary per MOS:WORDSASWORDS; Onel5969 is confusing this with the practice of italicizing a technical term on first use and not on subsequent uses. By the way I repent of introducing the Greek letters: that was OR; T's letter didn't use them, though Carpenter's endnote does discuss γοητεία. My dictionary doesn't even have μαγία, though it has μαγεία (which, consistent with goeteia, would be transcribed mageia); the spelling μαγία is my pure conjecture. (I must have been tired.)

Incidentally it might be worthwhile to quote Letter 155 at some length:

“ But I suppose that, for the purposes of the tale, some would say that there is a latent distinction such as once was called the distinction between magia and goeteia. Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy'. Well enough, but magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives. The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it is specially about it) domination of other 'free' wills. The Enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but 'magic' that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive .... ”

Note by the way that Tolkien, or at least Carpenter, italicizes magia and goeteia on each use because they're foreign words. —Tamfang (talk) 19:36, 9 March 2014 (UTC)