Talk:Magic in Middle-earth

Magic in Middle-earth has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: November 18, 2021. (Reviewed version).

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1

Incorrect Statements about Who Can Use Magic

The article says "Men and Hobbits could not directly work magic, but could make use of more or less magical artefacts made by others, such as Númenorean swords (made by Men with Elvish blood) and the Phial of Galadriel given to Frodo." This statement reflects a debunked point of view that is based on a selective citation (letter no. 155 - an unsent, unfinished fragment he abandoned). It also compresses a misunderstanding about the Númenorean ancestry. They were not all descended from Elves - or, rather, it cannot be shown (from Tolkien's statements) that they were all descended from Elvish blood. Only the descendants of Elros claimed such ancestry.

As for the use of magic, Tolkien noted that his logic failed when attempting to explain in the unsent fragment designated 155. The 2nd end-note for the letter reads: "Alongside the final paragraph, Tolkien has written: 'But the Númenóreans used "spells" in making swords?'" So this article must not represent a single point of view, especially in the opening summary. It's fair to acknowledge differences of interpretation provided those differences can be properly sourced, but many sources that quote or reference the letter ignore the end-note. Gareth Knight's 'The Magical World of the Inklings' is a good example. He discusses the points Tolkien made in the letter but omits the end-note's mention that Tolkien annotated the draft and abandoned it. Ronald Hutton, in his paper, 'Tolkien's Magic', does call out the end-note.

The article should be updated to note these oversights and Tolkien's own change of mind by referencing the end-note directly.Michael Martinez (talk) 21:54, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 22:24, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Should be good enough for now.Michael Martinez (talk) 22:28, 22 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect Statements about Whose Swords Glow Around Orcs

The "Self-wrapped weapons" section incorrectly states "Men of Númenor forged named swords with power to shine in presence of Orcs,[T 30][10]". The cited sources do not support this statement, which contradicts what the books themselves say anyway. The weapons that glowed in the presence of orcs were made by elves (and not just the elves of Gondolin).Michael Martinez (talk) 13:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Many of them were. On the other hand, Denethor examines Pippin's sword (a dagger) and asks "Whence came this? ... Many, many years lie on it. Surely this is a blade wrought by our own kindred in the North in the deep past?" (The Return of the King, book 5, ch. 1 "Minas Tirith"). Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pippin's sword doesn't glow around orcs, however. So the assertion that Numenorean swords did so still isn't supported by the text.Michael Martinez (talk) 16:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see you edited the article. Technically, it's correct/acceptable to say that Men of Numenor wielded swords made by the elves. But "Roast Mutton" doesn't support that statement. Probably only someone like me cares about that kind of minutiae.Michael Martinez (talk) 16:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you're right. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]