Talk:MS-13/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Copyvio

This page seems to be copied straight from http://www.nagia.org/mara_salvatrucha.htm.

Information I added on MS-13 name origins and clothes came from a Newsweek magazine article. LibraryLion

Only part of the article was a copyright violation. I have reverted to the last clean version. - RedWordSmith 02:22, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

I've added a pov header. The discussion of being fearless except for their fear of the other group is so much POV. RickK 23:46, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

---

What does the "13" mean or stand for in "MS-13"? — J3ff 01:13, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The number 13 is used b/c the letter "M" is the thirteenth letter in the alphabet.

M is used because it comes from MARA. In salvadoran slang: group of people, gang.

The number 13 is associated with Southern California, especially Los Angeles, latino gangs, who have had a fierce rivalry with Northern CA latino gangs, who use the number 14. MS was not the first gang to use the number 13. See this article http://www.nagia.org/Gang%20Articles/Other%20Hispanic%20Gangs.htm near the bottom of the page, for substantiation. Marcos El Malo 20/1/2007

---

66.68.80.176 posted the following the statements, which were subsequently removed by another anon. It probably belongs here on the talk page.

"This is a very biased account with many incorrect non-verifiable assertions. This gang is not much different to other Latino street gangs in LA. Not good but not different except that the US deported so many people that it spread in a small country unequipped to deal with this problem.

Many of the most serious crimes attributed to this gang are commited by organized criminals, not by the kids with tattoos that are so visible. They provide easy scapegoats for other more sinister and dangerous elements who should be the real targets.

There is no evidence that weapons are being trafficked from El Salvador. Weapons are readily available in the US. This makes no sense and there is no documentation of it. It is simply an assertion and because these are gang members people will believe anything. This gang also had nothing to do with a particular side of the Salvadoran conflict. They are everybody's children, some of the early members came from the Salvadoran military who routinely force recruited boys as young as 11. The Salvadoran military was trained by the US.

Please stop this inflammatory dishonest propaganda that is only going to increase violence.

Wikipedia is dishonored as a source of balanced information by including this highly erroroneous and biased entry."

What's with all the "rumored" and passive voice? With so many unfounded assertions in this article, you'd think the authors were competing with the whimsy of the Global Dimming article or the Geocities Ninjas page.

---

I agree - this article doesn't have enough stuff explaining how everything is the fault of the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.212.232 (talk) 23:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

M18

There is more than 1 mara, there is also the Mara 18. This article really should be about both gangs, and not just one of them. Not quite sure how it got like this, but I really believe it must change. --SqueakBox 01:13, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC) Look at [1] I have opened Talk:Mara Salvatrucha/ Incorporating M18 to work out how to change the article. --SqueakBox 01:28, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC) I understand the above complaint now. This article needs lots of editing, which i am doing on the special talk page, --SqueakBox 02:28, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

This page should not include both MS-13 and MS-18. They are seperate. They are a huge rival gangs.

There is no such thing as MS18, its Mara 18 otherwise known as 18th Street gang, there is no relation between the two gangs other than the fact they are both Surenos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.109.62.190 (talk) 05:40, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit conflict

I have restored information that was rather carelessly if not maliciously removed without any factual reference. Some of the information restored is not what I wrote, but I know my own source comes from Newsweek magazine, so if you think their reporters are making this information up, then write to the magazine and tell them to put their reporters on probation for making up facts. I just guessing a national magazine like Newsweek has a little more credibility than your average newssource, you think? I don't care what article you are working on, but you better be damn certain when you start deleting factual information that you know for sure it is erroneous. Yes facts sometimes do change, but you need to be responsible in editing and cite your sources when you change them. Wikipedia is not for "selective" editing so one can dictate what they think the reader "needs" to read, especially when dealing with specific factual information. Because one think information is irrelevant, doesn't mean you have the right to delete it. This sort of careless editing gets a lot of wikipedians real mad, so try to remember this: THINK BEFORE Y0U DELETE. LibraryLion

We are not here to report facts, but to write balanced articles; can you please tone down the criticism, --SqueakBox 20:07, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC). I have removed the partial anecdotal evidence. We don't need particular examples of their crimes, or opinions stated as facts about them being such a hard ganfg. it was the very violence worshipping tone of the article that caused someone else to put an NPOV notice on the article. All I am trying to do is get that lñlack of neutrality out of the article. Some of what was replaced was very american center, as if we all live ion the States, and none of us in El Salvador. We are not an American centred encyclopedia, and the salvatrucha is well known in Central Amnerica, --SqueakBox 20:16, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

I removed the bit about back home in Salvador as being very American centred; this is not Americawikipedia, and the article states at the beginning the mara comes from Salvador. I absolutely do have the right to delete if I think material is not relevant, and I can assure you i always think before I delete. Why are US these murders you chose to incorporate relevant. The San Pedro Sula massacre was not carried out by MS-13; possibly by M-18, though as no-one has been convicted even this would be speculation, --SqueakBox 14:59, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

I removed the line about gang members being in the gang for life and under a death sentence if they leave. This is just plain wrong. Some more notable ex-members, such as Alex Sanchez, do anti-gang work. I also changed the line in the "Rituals" section about members being jumped in for 13 seconds. They are jumped in for a count of 13, but this count can basically be made as long or as short as the members wish the jumping in to last. Bertocci 06:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Methods of crime

I don't believe there is anything distinctive about crimes committed by the MS, and so crime descriptions should be in crime, and crime linked in the article, --SqueakBox 03:11, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

In the metropolitan DC area the method of crime or tool used to commit crimes that is a signature for MS-13 activity is use of a machete to mame, hurt, kill enemies. --ND2 5:36, Nov 2, 2005

Name

Changed Marabundi into Marabunta. Marabundi isn't in the Spanish dictionary (http://www.rae.es/ the royal academy of the spanish language, site has on on-line version of the official Spanish dictionary), it feels more like some form of Australian Aboriginal to me (Marrabundi, zero hits on Google), no idea if it might be Mayan or some other local language. Marabunta is Spanish, though, and is a type of ant. According to http://es.geocities.com/luciamiyares/reportajes.html, the word Mara in MS comes from Marabunta.--El.tula 18:29, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Marabunta definitely is the right word, and it was my mistake. I got the word muddled up, which will teach me not to rely on my memeory without double checking. Thanks for checking and correcting. Collaboration in action, --SqueakBox 19:00, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

Mara comes from 'mara', its plain and simple "mara", meaning gang, referring to your friends, "la mara" the gang.. Mara as a word has been around for decades before the appearance of the recent crime phenomenon. Marabunta is a large group of ants (conjunto de hormigas). People claim this is the source of the slang word "mara." Infinitussollux

-I do not know any Spanish but have seen at least two programs on TV which said that Mara Salvatrucha means "Salvadoran Army of Ants", mara being slang in El Salvador that refers to army ants (the species) and Salvatrucha referring to El Salvadoran roots. This morning I visited a number of websites to investigate the issue and found a bewildering array of explanations for the name but this one did come up repeatedly. Interestingly, none of the sites had the definition appearing here. Perhaps this needs to be researched more.--Peter 09:13, 29 Apr 2006 (EST)

There is confusion in the article itself over the name 'mara'. The history section refers to is a meaning 'gang' while the etymology section says it comes from "'marabunta', the name of a fierce type of ant". In fact, the meaning of the name should be explained in one section only and not in two. -Andreas Toth (talk) 19:59, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Gangs

This article is about several gangs not one. This was clear in the past but has been deleted since, SqueakBox 19:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the main article stating that there is a street in El Salvador called "la mara"; this is false as there are no streets with this name. In addition, there were never any particular group of guerrillas calling themselves "salvatrucha guerrillas". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.193.242.252 (talk) 23:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, regarding the noun marabunta, having just spent some time in El Salvador, the word marabunta is more commonly used in reference to the Spider Wasp rather than the army ant.120.16.162.213 (talk) 01:40, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Bias in Origin

the article tries to put the origins of the Mara Salvatrucha squarely at the feet of 1980s US foreign policy. Some balance probably needs to be brought here.

I agree, much blame should go to the oligarchic gov. of El Salvador, which thru suppressive measures left the peasants landless and hopeless.

"they formed the Marasalvatrucha (...) to protect themselves." I disagree completely with this biased argument, it is very disrespectful toward all the people who refuse to join this dangerous gangs. Gangs dont form to protect themselves from other gangs, thats is a false statement and it leads to conclude that mexicans were actively asaulting non-gangsters salvadoreans based on hate, that is the same biased argument that ALL of the gangsters use. Its a lie that they use to justify their criminal actions. So puting it here as a historical reason for their existence is IRRESPONSIBLE and not truthful. I SUGGEST that you instead say that some maras claimed to have formed this group to defend themselves. That would be truthful.

What a great SUGGESTION. HOW about you just CHANGE it YOURSELF. -- Jesusfreak 22:15, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

name

THE MARA SALVATRUCHA IS NOT THE SAME AS MARA 18 or M-18 THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT RIVAL GANGS.

The article is about all the Central American gangs, SqueakBox 21:45, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Website

Several articles I have found mention MS-13 is in constant synchronization because they maintain an offical website. Does anyone have the link to this website?

Maybe it's a secret website. O_o ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 04:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

That would make a ton of sense! If LE officials got ahold of it they would know every move... unless it was set up as a counter measure to LE?TIMER TNS!!!

Any Galleries?

Does anyone have a link to galleries?

so far I have only found this one http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF1804/DeCesare/DeCesare.html

Acrilico 04:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe that if you want to get the facts about MS 13 you should talk to an actual member, the fact that this page said that ms means mierda seca would really piss off MS members because that is one of the ways to disrespect MS. Another thing that this page has wrong is the FMLN, the correct way is FMNL meaning Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front which was a political group in El Salvador in the early 80's.

Hello friend, I do have to correct you here. The right acronym is FMLN which stands for Farabundo Marti para la Liberacion Nacional in spanish. I do agree with you on the "fact" the this organization has nothing to do with the MS-13. The MS-13 ia a bi-product of USA society and the gangs in LA in the early 80's.

Lifted from website?

Much of the text for this article seems to be lifted word for word from this website: http://www.knowgangs.com/

I would recommend listing it under the references section.

I don't think so. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 00:49, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

---Due to the fact of what happened to Brenda Paz, members wouldn't automatically go "Oh hey here's how MS works" I recommend you should go to the FBI site and look them up. --- mr716 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr716 (talk • contribs) 03:21, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Rituals Question

I am sorry, but I don't get what "jumped in" means. Could you please explain it? Thanks. User:Crisspy

being "jumped in" is a common main part in joining a gang. The one who wishes to joined in pretty much beaten up by the current members until a stop is called (pre arranged, by leader, something). Then they are usually a member. http://www.gangwar.com/dynamics.htm I speak in common and usually because I'm fairly certain this is the normal order of things, but if anyone wants to addon, correct, have at it. Mind 404 07:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

u dont hav 2 get jupKed in 2 join a gang, it depKends wat gang u gonna join

In mara salvatruchia the jumping in beating lasts for 13 seconds. Then you are a member and you will hear the 13 rules. This is also one of the reasons that mara salvatruchia is also called MS 13, because in becoming as well as being a member, the number 13 is important

rules and other miscellany

I thought the rules they follow would, if written in a way that doesn't glorify largely violent folks for having a potential code of honor, add some depth to understanding any sort of ethos driving these people. I'd be willing to try and have a crack at writing it, if someone has an idea of where these rules are in a verifiable source.

The miscellany is as follows:

QUERYING THIS: "Ernesto "Smokey" Miranda, a co-founder of the MS in Los Angeles, left the gang and is helping children to stay out of gangs. [6]. He was gunned down on May 16, 2006, outside of his home in El Salvador."

Is the date correct?? MAY 16, 2006 was yesterday and there is not a single news item on it in Google.

That was a bizarre thing to have in the notes section of the article; I figured it was more talk page material than in the article and mostly created confusion. That said, I moved it here in case someone comes looking for it. 68.20.22.206 00:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC) russ.

Founding Fathers

The founding fathers were Ernesto Miranda and Julio Cesar. No arguments.Luis 02:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)Fat Lui

Clean-up

The clean-up tag was added for a number of reasons. Firstly, there's a lack of citation throughout the entire article, excepting the two links at the bottom. The grammar makes me suspect that Mara Salvatrucha members, many of whom don't natively speak English¹, have been significantly contributing the article, so there may be NPOV issues in the article. Since I don't know much of anything about this particular topic, I need other people to check for that. The best I can do at the moment is fix-up the grammar and punctuation, but even that is tall order for one person. Then there's, the enemies section reads more like a hit-list than an encyclopedic article, but I have no idea how to fix that. The content is legitimate and relevant, presumably, so it shouldn't be removed. It might do better in the form of a couple of paragraphs about Mara Salvatrucha's conflicts. Anyway, the point is, a lot of this, from the grammar, to the punctuation, to the citation, to the formatting, just isn't encyclopedic. It gets even worse in the discussion, see the anonymous addition to "A little clean-up" above. There needs to be some major clean-up here.

¹ I assume that if they are mostly Salvadorian immigrants, English may not be their native language, but again, I know practically nothing about this particular topic, so I could easily be wrong. Other people who do know more about this need to help. -NorsemanII 10:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

bunch of lies

whoever keeps on changing this is just saying lies, I know its some one from the East Coast since they reffer to it so much, MS13 are not enemies of Sureños since they are from SUR 13, or the 13 wouldnt be on the name and the Mexican Mafia aint their enemies, thats the 1st place why the 13 is in it to show their affiliation and the fist mara salvatrucha was not MSS (mara salvatrucha Stoners)[yes they were mara salvatrucha stoners you stupid fuck iv herd it everywhere even on the show gang land and they even talk to former ms meber so before you say everythings a lie learn your fact stupid shit] it was just Mara Salvatrucha or SATANAS, theres no such thing as MS14, theres no Norte in Mara Salvatrucha, and theres no such thing as MS18, its just Maras 18 (in central America) or 18 st gang as its known in California, MS18 is like saying SUR 14, and its combining 2 enemies

You are right about CA and Mara 18, SqueakBox 23:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

SqueakBox Where You From? In my hometown L.A. Surenos and MS-13 are Two different gangs. Mexican Mafia put MS-13 on a green light because they refuse to pay taxes to them. Surenos wear blue and MS-13 wear Brown or Black. They use 13 because they started in SoCal. If they stated in the north they would 14 thats how the system works. They start off MSS they drop the S and started using 13. There is a MS-14 in Nortre. I'm From L.A. and i know how they got started where you from -66.161.183.156 3:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC) (This comment originally replaced the rest of the discussion page, I reverted that edit and then appended the comment here. -NorsemanII 04:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC))

Norseman11 you are a freaking liar. Ms- 13 and Sur13 have been allys since ive known them. Just because you live in the north doesn't mean you add a 14 to any gang in the north.Surenos and ms-13 are two different gangs but they are close as allys.Ms-13 does not wear black at all, Surenos and MS-13 wear- Primary- Blue, Brown, and Grey. Im from the southside of texas so we know what MS-13 and Surenos are all about. Wearing black is a violation because thats a blood (red) color and surenos and ms-13 hate red because its from the north-side. And i would know all of this BECAUSE i am a Sureno-13, Sur-13, And Sureno Triece (13).--Sureno-thug13 15:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

---The mexican mafia alone has less than 50,000 members, but it controls hundreds of Sureno gangs outside prison, so together with the gangs it controls would be about 100,000 soldiers--- mr716

Note that the source for that figure is cited. You should either find some reason why the cited source doesn't meet WP:V, or find a more authoritative contradicting source. Personally, I'd be happy to lower that number, since I did check the citation provided and they stated that it is believed to be that large, without stating (as far as I could tell) who holds that belief. If you can find a stronger source, I would support using that instead. -NorsemanII 05:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I am totally clueless about this topic and am staying out of editing. However, I would point interested parties to the following document: FBI 2005 threat assesment. As far as I can tell, this appears to contradict the claimed figure (in particular read page 20 of the PDF.) As it is published by the US Department of Justice, it seems fairly authoritative. Manning 02:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Ms-13 is the worlds largest gang in the world. if you havnt herad they are the worst gang to mess with because surenos and the mexican mafia are combined as allys.--Sureno-thug13 15:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.157.40.169 (talk)

No more close to 10,000 in the US in 31 states and are in a half dozen countries and 50,000- 100,000 worldwide. They are the largest and most feared gang in the world. Source National Geographic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hviVFKoq3s&feature=related 5 parts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.189.141.171 (talk) 07:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

MSS

Please do not erase the Mara Salvatrucha Stoners part because Ernesto 'Smoky' Miranda himself confirmed this in an interview with the spanish-speaking channel Univision when they did a special about life in gangs.

Do you have a reference link, date of broadcast, or any way to verify this? See WP:VERIFY. Brad T. Cordeiro 02:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Name (continued)

As a Salvadoran growing up in El Salvador in the late 70's and early to mid 80's before MS really hit, to my knowledge the word "Mara" meant a group of people, your crowd, your folks and so on. For example: "Toda la mara se fue para la playa" meaning "everyone went to the beach" I am aware of the meaning of the word marabunta (army ants) but i dont think the name for La Mara Salvatrucha came from "army ants" but more from "our people" "our crowd", "our gang". However it does appear that it is a possibility that the original caliche meaning of "mara" derrived from marabunta. --Javierbaires1 20:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)Javierbaires1

I heard the same thing on National Geographic Explorer. 72.251.2.41 01:06, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Specifically the word marabunta may have been popularized in El Salvador from the movie of the same name I remember watching in tv during the 70's. I assume it was dubbed to Spanish so I don't know what the English title may be? The term salvatrucha I remember starting as slang for Salvadorans living in the US during the 80's. I never heard it associated to the guerrillas. I suppose it was coined in Los Angeles. 64.161.18.245 (talk) 07:15, 17 September 2008 (UTC) Jorge 091608 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.161.18.245 (talk) 07:06, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Human smuggling and Illegal Immigration section

I deleted the Human smuggling and Illegal Immigration section, because it was only filled with citations of newsarticles, without any real information. If one considers it to be necessary to put in, I suggest it will be re-written. --Soetermans 20:59, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Nice call and a good action. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 21:49, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

No, bad call and bad action. Citations -are- real information. While you say that your criticism is of the information, it is actually of the format. Not liking the format is not a reasonable argument for getting rid of information from reliable sources. You are encouraged to change the way it is written - without getting rid of sourced information.-75.179.159.240 12:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't here to simply quote news reports. We should summarize them, if they're relevant. -Will Beback · † · 18:33, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Noone has said that they shouldn't be summarized - only that they shouldn't be simply cut out. There is a difference.-75.179.159.240 14:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

By the way, quotes are far more verifiable than the inevitable distortions of putting things in our own words.-75.179.159.240 00:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

If folks want to read the original words they can follow the links. Folks go to encyclopedias to get summaries, not to read source documents. -Will Beback · † · 01:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

People come to encyclopedias for information. That's why "make it short" is not a pillar of Wikipedia whereas Verifiability is.-75.179.159.240 01:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

So long as we summarize the info correctly it will be verifiable. If you'd like to work with quotes I recommend our sister project, Wikiquotes. -Will Beback · † · 02:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

"So long as we summarize the info correctly it will be verifiable". Read up on Shannon's law and critical theory. I say that because what you seem to be arguing for flies in the face of years and years of social reporting/research in academia.-198.97.67.57 14:07, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

We're not engaged in critical theory, we're writing a neutral encyclodpedia. Selective use of quotations isn't the best way to achieve that goal. Also, if you're going to participte on talk pages please get or use a username. Otherwise it appears you're abusing the multiple account privilege and attempting to appear as multiple people. -Will Beback · † · 18:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I prefer editing as an anon for now. And we are writing an encyclopedia which has verifiable information - or at least that's our goal. Quotes are more verifiable than the inevitable distortions caused by you rephrasing what people say. That's what Shannon's law and critical theory are about. An NPOV encyclopedia which is full of unverifiable information is no good.-75.179.159.240 02:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Cherry picking quotes won't make this encyclopedia NPOV, user:Psychohistorian. -Will Beback · † · 05:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

"Cherry picking quotes won't make this encyclopedia NPOV" Cherry picking is selectivley filtering to promote one side over the other. That's what you've done here by identifying the director of a U.S. task force while removing the identification of a congressman, a national newspaper, and a Homeland Security memo. I've not done any cherry picking.-198.97.67.57 14:03, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm OK with not identifying the task force head. -Will Beback .·.·.· 16:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

They are in fact involved with human trafficing. They have the most profitable prostitution rings within US Borders anything within National Geographic Explorer should be fact with dealing with MS-13. Dealing with illegal immigration they should be more involved with crossing border illegaly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hviVFKoq3s&feature=related 5 parts.

More than one gang

Mara salvatrucha refers to more than one gang. These rival gangs in Central America are all called Mara Salvatrucha and spend a lot of time killing each other. There is no unified gang, SqueakBox 18:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The gang definitely has multiple leaders and seems operate in far-flung cities throughout Canada, the US, and central America. Much of the history and statistics in this article appear to be inaccurate. I will try to correct a few things if I have time... Jonathan Stokes 08:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The 18th Street Gang is often referred to as "MS-18" and they have their own article. Perhaps "MS-13" should get its own article too, to disambiguate some of the conflicts with this Mara Salvatrucha article. Jonathan Stokes 08:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

MS-18 are definitely active in CA as well though not referred to in this article, SqueakBox 17:36, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree conceptually, so long as there are enough sources about the individual gangs to support articles. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 17:33, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what sources I can find (though our local paper is down right now and that will be the best source), SqueakBox 17:36, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

MS-18 and MS-13 are both huge in Los Angeles, and pretty notable nationwide. I think they could be subsets of the Mara Salvatrucha article. I've also noticed the Wikipedia "Bloods" article does not refer to the "Mob Piru Bloods" who are pretty notable. I wonder if there is a wikiproject for "gangs" that could start to clean these up? I am currently busy writing Rampart Scandal (which relates to MS-18), but may switch over to gang topics in about a month. Rampart Scandal is a big project and will keep me busy for a while... Jonathan Stokes 06:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

FYI, we used to have a nice litle article on "Pirus (gang)" but it was deleted because it was unsourced. That's why I'm concerned about keeping our gang articles sourced. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 07:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

MS-13 & Al Qaeda

The three media sources for the connection between MS-13 and Al Qaeda are between 2 and 3 years old. More recent citations are needed. - MSTCrow 00:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I have fixed it up a little since the article cited (one was dead) clearly states that there were doubts. I didn't want to remove the source... but, USA Today is not something that should be cited for two year old claims... reliable claims should have made it into better sources by now... gren グレン 06:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

MS 13 for acuracy of this article you need to add mexicans nicaraguans and guatemalans as well in the list of people involved in the MS i have articles about many mexicans and nicaraguans that are in the ms 13 so that is something that needs to be in that section.

---There is no official or firm evidence that MS-13 is working with Al Qaeda, and if they were offered the chance, I bet they would deny it anyway--- mr716

Request for edit

{{editprotected}}

Hey vatos i see you guys got an article about us, but a lot of it is wrong im not perfect with english but here it goes, Mara is a word that has been in use here in el salvador for a long time before even the gang existed Mara means group of people and it does not come from an ant, ants dont even roam around here so its silly and it slighly pissed me off that your meaning is so unaccurate, now the gang started in los angeles as metal stoners first called MSS after the homeboys went to jail they got protection from the Mexican Mafia because they were located in southern california so they droped the last S and added the 13 for southern california as they were deported back to el savador the gang started here, now over here in el salvador is only known as MS for Mara Salvatrucha, and that reason is because the 13 is mexican and over the last decade mexicans have been feuding with salvadorians all over the place gang member or not, anyone who tattoo themselves with 13 is a disrespect to los salvatruchos the only reason why the media is using MS13 is because of the possers (young kids)in the U.S that have made the news but the real gang is here in central america and its Called MS without the 13 i think u should start removing some 13s because its simple U.S MS13 = possers and Central america MS = the real gang

BIG LOKOTE SALVATRUCHO—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Punkies52 (talk • contribs) 09:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC).

Edit request declined. Anyone with an account older than 4 days can edit this page. --- RockMFR 17:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone know who are their allies? And what prison gang ould they follow (ex: mexican mafia etc)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.10.161 (talk) 18:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

MS (disambiguation)

Please help find a source to substantiate the term MS that way we can avoid having to delete article content concerning the MS abbreviation. --CyclePat 05:03, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I have started an investigation into who was the first wikipedian to provide this information. I have contacted this first user, who is user:R.123, and left him a message asking to provide references. If I do not here back from anyone within the next 5 days, I will assume this information is false and it will be deleted. Thank you for your help. --CyclePat 20:50, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

CyclePat, please check the external links and references, most, if not all, refer to MS, MS-13, or Mara in the text or even the title. Every single item in an article does not need a source. Only items that are potentially controversial. Also, please consider that R.123 has not contributed since April 1, 2007 and he probably will not respond to your message. spryde | talk 13:37, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe sourcing is the issue as per WP:V. I should be able to check that this material has already been published by a reliable source. "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material." The symbol or term "MS" within this article is not only important in defining this group. If this is not trully the term which applies to these "people" (WP:BIO) we may be insulting, lying and defaming there character. I believe this could be arousing of controversy (A debate, discussion of opposing opinions; strife.) Secondly, it is important to have this information properly sourced because other articles (such as MS (disambiguation) rely on the content). My former comment of 12 Novemeber, still stands. God speed and good luck finding the sources. --CyclePat 04:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

p.s.: Thank you for the advice. I am reading through the article to see what I can gather. It appears there is one article which we could make an inference WP:SYN, using the words from Brenda when she refers to the gang as MS. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/01/60minutes/main1090941.shtml. p.p.s:Inferences are not permitted on wikipedia. --CyclePat 04:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The recruitment section

This section states that gang members 'assault the inductee for 13 seconds'. I was wondering, why 13 seconds and do they time the attack? --Hydraton31 (talk) 20:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

---The number always represented with Mara Salvatrucha is 13, if you ever find any galleries of any MS13 related photos, if you see graffiti, you should usually see the tag 'MS' with 'X3' or '13' its the number they represent. This means the 13th letter of the alphabet is M, I would say it either stands for 'Mara' or association with the Mexican Mafia, as most gangs with '13' on them usually are loyal to the Mexican Mafia--- mr716

Main Rival section needs revision

It desperately needs one. I can't understand it, to be honest. JeffreyGomez (talk) 14:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The person who wrote it appears to be retarded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.13.130.37 (talk) 15:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The Real Mara

the whole reason these guys put an ms or 18 covering their whole face or head is exactly so that wont happen. i know some of the tattos are jumbled or sloppy but its not an excuse. i got carried way off track with my rants, so i wont even dive into the mara history, ill wait to see what the reactions are to this first. because it might get really confusing when i dive into that. i should organize my thoughts in a proffesional report but i had enough of that in college, plus im not being paid for this so i dont feel the urge, aside from all this though i can say that what i know is only 10% or maybe less of what is kept in the university of crime, which is the california prison system. thats where dudes have time and energy to sit down and actually get all the history straight, and make an official version, maybe in the same way history in general is created and documented. i think the people in jail are relatively objective when it comes down to it though. if law enforcement could get the guys in jail to talk they would solve alot of the crime problems in america. alright everybody that listened, thanks alot, much love later . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.132.70 (talk) 08:47, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

2006 article

This article URL was placed in the reference section without referring to any part of the article specifically. Still, it is relevant to the subject matter. MS-13 gang seen as growing threat: Authorities target group in Texas and across U.S. by David McLemore, Dallas Morning News, 29 October 2006. Perhaps someone will want to incorporate some of it into the article.--SidP (talk) 20:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

requested protection

This page needs to be cleaned up and have its sources verified. Despite bieng a largely mestizo gang I have yet to read about them crossing paths with the klan or volksfront. As well as sureno status, Any one who disputes it should read a document titled mara pdf by ice or the nagia gang assesment.what ever happened to showing your source. if thats too hard you have no bussines editing stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sickero (talk • contribs) 01:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

KKK ? volksfront ?

I wanna see proof they are enemys ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sickero (talk • contribs) 07:33, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Number Of Members

In the Guiness Book Of World Records, where Mara Salvatrucha was said to be the fastest growing street gang in the world, they mentioned that MS13 has over 700,000 members worldwide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.244.163.224 (talk) 21:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

wiki project gangs

im trying to start a gang task force any takers ?Sickero (talk) 11:10, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

History Channel:"Gangland"

This gang , other "Latino Gangs", such as the Latin Kings have been featured here. Go to www.history.com/Gangland 65.163.115.254 (talk) 09:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

WRONG

the allies section is completely wrong, and ms is not enemies with the Mexican Mafia, ms works for them, thats what the 13 stands for —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.232.120.245 (talk) 02:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• That's not true at all. MS does not "work for" EmE. Niteshift36 (talk) 12:25, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Murder in OH

{{editsemiprotected}} Nov. 26, 2008, Jonathan Retana was convicted of murder for killing Miguel Angel Deras. Authorities linked the shooting to MS-13 initiation.Doglassd (talk) 17:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

 Done, thanks for the referenced addition. ~ mazca ^t|c 20:19, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

---

word mara------------

Mara is a kind of ant which harbours in central american jungle. Maras are big ants which stay in big groups and can devoure bigger insects or small animals. That s the origin of the word which was taken to the meaning of gang. Salvatrucha means salvadorean in the LA slang, salva=salvadoreno trucha literelly mean trout ( fish) but in salvadorean slang it means to be sly,astute, in spanish vivo,avispado...so the world salvatrucha is a combination of these two words. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.9.198.145 (talk) 12:42, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I think there should be something regarding the U.S. Military's concern about MS-13 openly recruting junior U.S. military personnel and gang infiltration into the military by MS-13. The 2009 FBI Gang Assessment references this troubling situation.Panamajack100 (talk) 23:04, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Request For Minor Edit

I have moved these requests to the end of this talk page - please add new threads to the end, to avoid confusion. Thanks,  Chzz  ►  11:37, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

THE 13/ PLUS SOME MORE

Although it is true of the MS-13 vs 18th street battle. the 13 in the MS-13 stands for the allegiance they have with the Mexican mafia (La EME) as the La EME sees these 2 gangs as high profitable members.. MS-13 members are also known as Surenos. the MS-18 is the alliance they have with the 18th street gang. "we are a team out her on the streets vs the black gangs/ Polynesian gangs, and Asian gangs. All in all they all respond to the Mexican mafia. The Mexican mafia has an alliance with the Sinaloa cartel. thus the EME's huge drug distribution success. the Sinaloa cartel is in charge of many other small cartels. Contrary to the belief, the Sinaloa cartel, Tijuana cartel, and the Guadalajara cartel are all in alliance. all 3 cartels are ran by family members.pp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.14.162.210 (talk) 12:14, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Request For Minor Edit 2

{{editsemiprotected}}

As this page seems to be locked i was unable to make a 'very' minor grammatical edit. There is a sentence as follows:

   According to the authorities, fellow MS-13 inmates hanged him. 

It should read :

   According to the authorities, fellow MS-13 inmates hung him.

As I said minor, but I like to fix even small things like this so the article reads well. Can someone with the ability to edit this page make this change please to improve Wikipedia and make it more professional. I would've done this myself if I was able to but the page is locked....sorry for hassling people to make such a minor change but I think even though its minor its important and since its locked I am unable to.

Thanks, Marty —Preceding unsigned comment added by MartyKopka (talk • contribs) 04:53, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, hanged is correct: A person in hanged, a picture is hung. (You can say a person is hung, but it means something else entirely). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Schmipple (talk • contribs) 20:53, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

 Not done per the above, the word 'hanged' is perfectly grammatically correct in this case. See here, for example.  Chzz  ►  11:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Knowgangs.com

Is this source reliable? http://www.knowgangs.com/

Yes Very Reliable

• It is not a reliable source. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:28, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Request For Minor Edit 1

{{editsemiprotected}}Wrong information. There are no Maras in Nicaragua. Please, change data[2], [3], [4]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.36.161.137 (talk) 08:09, 24 August 2009 (UTC) .

 Not done The article does not say that there are Maras in Nicaragua. It says, "...gang is ethnically composed of Salvadorans, Hondurans, Guatemalans, and Nicaraguans." This is not the same thing. The fact that members are ethnic Nicaraguans seems to be supported by many RS, such as The Guardian, BBC.  Chzz  ►  11:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

{{editsemiprotected}} Be so carefull with these articles you have cited. The articles say textualy: BBC "Street gangs that cross borders": "Although the gang franchises have not spread to Nicaragua because there have been relatively few deportations from the US, the Los Angeles culture has fuelled the growth of organised crime" When they talk about Nicaragua is not in order to comment than Maras are composed by Nicaraguans, they talk about few gangs in Nicaragua. The other article The Guardian "Poor neighbours fall prey to US gang culture" when they mention Nicaragua is for talking about the variety of languaje from different countries in the U.S.A. streets "These days, it is more likely that English will not even be the first language you hear on the streets. In Langley Park, Maryland, the kiosks sell Spanish-language newspapers; the supermarket shelves are stocked with tortillas and assorted black beans. Mexican music plays in the background while the tannoy blares out announcements in Spanish. Outside, groups of men hang out on the street corners and their Spanish is accented - Nicaraguan, Honduran and, most often, Salvadoran." But when the talk about Maras they say "Today, some estimates put up to 60,000 maras active in El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico and - according to the FBI - in more than 40 US states. Rod J Rosenstein is Maryland's US Attorney." and again when they talk about Nicaragua they say "But Nicaragua has so far managed to avoid any large-scale gang problem. Why? "The police concentrate on more preventative measures," says Mr Cruz." So please read carefully the articles you have cited because they do not support at all that Maras gangs are composed by nicaraguans, and please search the whole serious articles about Maras composition: Maras in the U.S.A are not composed by nicaraguan people, Maras are composed by people of Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras and Mexico mainly, and neither are maras in Nicaragua. And please change the wrong data. Thanks.

Duplicate template removed.  Not done per this. Tim Song (talk) 03:05, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Source for 100,000 membership

The current citing source of NPR News in 2005 only says 50,000, not a single word indicating 100,000. Is there some secondary/tertiary source (governmental investigation) estimating that 100,000 membership? I don't think a news report merely writing "membership of MS-13 has been estimated to be 100,000" without citing official source would be helpful. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 14:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Request for Edit

In comparing the Spanish language version and the English language version of the Mara Salvatrucha article, I noticed that the themes of poverty and social exclusion are not mentioned in the english language version. I think this is of the utmost importance in the understanding of the origins and development of Gangs. So I translated that information form the Spanish language version and hereby request that it be included in the english version.

Social Roots

Mara Salvatrucha´s social formation, both in their place of origin and place of destination, is composed mostly of young people without education or job opportunities, with high levels of social exclusion, the direct result of poverty. They become an ideal breeding ground for organized crime, who charge them with carrying out their criminal activities, from small neighborhood-level activities, to commando actions (assault or murder on request), linked to drugs and their marketing, including market disputes between rival gangs.

Being so numerous and widely distributed in various territories, they have moved toward each recipient country as part of illegal activities in general and organized crime, being used against them, by law enforcement, the standard methods of combat diagnosis and treatment. Their main enemy is Pandilla 18 (Crew 18).

Preconditions

Most young people also come from poor households without sufficient income for maintenance or development. They are socially excluded, having examples of domestic violence against women in the family, abandoning their homes at an early age because of the arbitrary actions of their elders, and without attending school regularly, with high dropout rates. Thus, it is common to fall into a violent group or gang.

To this situation it is added from the outside the traditional ethnic rivalries in U.S. territories, some of them formed specifically to commit crimes related to drug trafficking, which find in the newcomers a workforce suitable and inexpensive to maintain and expand their activities. The ongoing deportation from the U.S. to various Central American countries has enhanced the local conformation of each group of gangs, because it unifies them around the deported leaders, and finally somehow removes the existing local ones, thus transnationalizing the identities existing in the United States.

This social phenomenon has many facets and implications. In addition, it risks having already become something of a structural nature, like poverty, factor to which it is inextricably linked.

The environment makes it easier for gang members to become regular users of drugs, which feeds back the spiral of crime. ~ ~ ~ ~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Franreyes (talk • contribs) 23:47, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Two points on these well-known (and widely accepted) social theories:

1) they seem to apply to all gangs, not just MS-13, so would properly belong in article Gang.

2) all would need to be cited to reliable sources.

--CliffC (talk) 03:25, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

(later) Many of your points may already be covered in Subcultural theory; worth a look. --CliffC (talk) 04:00, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

RUMOR: Links to the FMLN

Being a citizen of El Salvador, I would appreciate if this "rumor" of the original members of Salatrucha having links with the FMLN to be removed, since there is no evidence whatsovever that links both "groups", furthemore, the predominant faction on this country that tries to stablish a link between the gang and the political left of the country, is orcherstrated mainly by ARENA sympathizers. In fact, this "link" is prepoustrous, considering that for starters the original members of Salvatrucha where Salvadorean "refugees"/migrants who were ESCAPING the war (just as many of my compatriotas did in the 80s).

The word "Salvatrucha" is basically the Salvadorian (rhetorical) equivalent of the "Minuteman" in Am. English. Maybe that fits the revolutionary profile of an FMLN member, but "Mara" definitely does not. If anything, and this is purely speculation... I would think that it would be hard for FMLN members to get out of El Salvador in the 80s, with the CIA watching and the defense dept. spending so much money. 2nd, the kind of violence that MS-13 committs: rape (doesn't make sense when first-hand reports of the FMLN speak of women being treated equally on and off the battlefield), murdering women and children, human trafficking? C'mon, they risked their lives and their families lives to fight for the people, the goverments of France and Mexico both recognized the FMLN as a legit government.

SO who could the original MS13 thugs have been? How about war criminals trying to escape a coalition government at the end of the civil war? Or, more specifically, how about Salvadorian counter-revolutionaries, trained at the School of the Americas (Ft. Benning, GA), armed with US-tax-payer-funded weaponry and helicopters, and paid with US Defense aid ordered by Reagan which kept the civil war alive for 12 years? Henry Kissinger is wanted by more than a few nations for war crimes, just for working with groups like the Sandinistas and others. If the people who could expose the US connection were faced with a government bent on reconciling 12 years of revolution, they would surely call their friends at the CIA, have the correct strings pulled at the state department, and fly away to amnesty and refugee status in the US.country. And if those folks who had contact with US leadership/forces, their testimony during a public trial would blow the top off this brave new world. that at least sounds more plausible than MS13 membems having been die-hard revolutionaries that escaped the INTERPOL dragnet to go to the home of the people that just screwed up the last decade or so of their nation's existence.

So, following me this far, if Reagan thinks ketchup is a vegetable, then how well do you think his staff "took care of" their friends now that they were in America during the late 80's recession?! It's no wonder hardened thugs would go back to crime while Reagan was in office.

The civil war ended because Teflon President's brilliant plan to support the corrupt El Salvadorian government backfired when Government soldiers killed Jesuit priests and the media tried to say it was the rebels! It's just too bad the Congressional investigation exposed the biggest joke of all--it was the US's friends, that were doing the systematic killing in that —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ictsiege316 (talk • contribs) 10:09, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Minor nit

"MS-13 is one of the most dangerous gangs in the United States." sounds like gang members patting themselves on the back. How about either removing that sentence, or replacing "is" by "are referred to as"? 138.246.18.91 (talk) 20:38, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, maybe they are but I've removed the statement as poorly sourced. --CliffC (talk) 21:20, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

"A Mara Salvatrucha gang members with tattoos features". Sounds like Yoda wrote this caption. --72.152.135.134 (talk) 23:37, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Targeting of Minutemen

Footnote 25 (regarding the alleged targeting of the Minutemen border patrols) leads to a Washington Times article that only contains 1 source who also happens to be the leader of the Minutemen. This article is self-promotion and contains no corroboration at all, unlike footnote 26 (relating to the actual US border patrol) which has several sources. This reference should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mlhoganjr (talk • contribs) 18:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Reverting back to 1 March version

I reverted back to the 1 March version, giving edit summary "rv to 1 March - unsourced changes, unexplained deletions, addition of a poor Google translation to lead" to undo some edits that harmed the article. Most of the harm happened with this edit.

• unsourced changes - membership went from 15,000 in the United States to 50,000.
• unexplained deletions - including removing the long paragraph starting "Their activities have caught the eye of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)..." and the description of how the hand sign is formed. If there's a reason to remove material, it should be given in the edit summary or on the talk page.
• addition of a poor Google translation to lead - Google Translate is far from perfect and generally needs to be touched up before the results are used in an article. The translation

The excessive cruelty to the distinguished members of the "Maras" or "Mareros", earned them a path to be recruited by the criminal organization of Sinaloa, Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman, to be trained in handling weapons and counter the force from the Gulf Organization (Los Zetas), a war that rages south of the United States Border.[5]

needs touching up. Either way it doesn't belong in the lead as a replacement for the removed FBI paragraph.

It's better to make changes a little at a time and use an edit summary so other editors can understand their intention. --CliffC (talk) 23:18, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

If the revert war continues I'll protect the page.   Will Beback  talk  03:55, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

A little clean-up

I deleted this line "any one who uses the phrase mierda seca ( meaning dry shit in spanich ) which is a common way to insult ms 13 members", as sworn enemies.. I hope it's obvious as to why I did, but beyond lacking citations of sources, it's not very convincing.

The Real Mara

PART 1:Theres alot of comments above that are correct and alot that are incorrect, some people claiming to be from LA are as incorrect as you can get and not just about the Mara but about the surenos. About this whole article, i dont claim to know it all but i do believe that i know more than most of the people on here. As far as my background I am a central american that moved to LA in the early 80s and joined a mexican gang in the 90s. one of the people i agree with the most in this whole discussion is jesusfreak, i was going to add what his comment was but was happy to see he had already said it, no one victimized anyone and how did 18 victimize them and then miraculously half of their own members are salvadoran too. salvadorans are in almost every gang in LA, and surprisingly most of the gangs that dont get along with mara have alot of salvadorans in them too. the true story of the mara is very long and very twisted and hard to follow even for me that basically heard all the angles over a period of about 15 years from all kinds of sources. the problem is you would almost have to describe the whole history of latino gangs in LA to really understand. i can sum it down or dumb it down for this comment but dont take the way i describe it as a stand alone description. here it goes,,, the mara salvatrucha is a mexican barrio named in the salvadoran style, but it is strictly a barrio, in my opinion even the ones in el salvador are a mexican barrio, theres almost no way to get away from that, and thats what ive told members from mara in DC and virginia which i have met. they dress like mexicans, talk like mexicans, and operate in the barrio style, but to really get down to the core you could say they are California chicano. i know because i know how the maras in el salvador and guatemala used to be, and MS is very far from that. the word mara is an old slang term for gang, which itself evolved, and for the ignorant people out there that still dont understand that think about how the word "gang" has evolved, the show "my gang," phrases like me and the gang, it just means a group of friends or coworkers or peers in some way, like crews of workers are referred to as gangs and always have been, now the word gang mainly means criminal organization, "mara" is similar but of course not always 100%, some things are lost or changed or reversed in the translation. when they came to LA they just wanted something to be really salvadoran sounding so they named it mara, then the "salva" is for salvadoran, thats easy. the "trucha" part to me is the one which is really open for interpretation, not "mara". in LA chicano slang trucha means being alert, trucha is also the literal spanish word for the fish known as trout. maybe the slang word came from connecting the slick fast slippery fish to like a human quality of being alert or slick. in spanish like in english those could be good or bad traits depending on what your morals or ethics are. obviously for the gang its a good thing. combine them together and bam, you got your brand name. ill go further than jesus freak and say that not only the mara wasnt being victimized by the mexican gangs, they where actually being nurtured and tutored, which is why in my opinion the mara is a straight up mexican barrio. i think people outside of the criminal world place too much emphasis on race or nationality when it comes to gang wars. if you think about it most mexican gangs go to war with other mexican gangs. it doesnt hurt when the enemy gang is from a different race or nationality but it doesnt necesarily matter, not always. for example if theres two mexican gangs and two philipino gangs, or salvadoran gangs, the odds are that one mexican gang will align with one philipino gang and the two left will align with each other. either way MS is aligned with the surenos or else they wouldnt use the 13, because that is the only meaning for 13, originally it might have been for the 13th letter which is M but that stopped being true before mara even got started, because the M is not for the M in mara, and im going to drop a shocker but its not even for the M in Mexican Mafia, 13 is the original logo of the Maravilla gang, an East LA powerhouse.

The Real Mara

PART 2:officially though it is the M of mexican mafia which the 13 is used for now, the Maravilla basically blessed the mafia, which shows you that this gangs influence goes back a lil further than MS. so after all thats said and done we can go back to the history of MS, they may have become an official gang in the early 80s but i think it was something that started developing in the late 70s. so we have to all put the mara in the context of their time. its not something that started last year or 5 years ago just beacause thats when the media coverage picked up on it. thats why i always like to categorize gang history as pre-"colors" and post-"colors". as in "colors" the movie with sean penn and duval, that movie changed the whole trajectory of gang culture in LA and eventually the world. so the few gangs that go back before that movie was released are in a special category. they where active before gangbanging was popular. that makes them a little more motivated i think. so mara was around before colors, i mean if people dont know what mara means today in 2008, imagine the macarthur park or pico union westlake district of LA in the early 80s, well now that im really getting into this post im starting to realize that maybe just reading a post or two or even the whole entire webcoverage on the mara wont do people too much good if they dont even know little stupid things that maybe someone from the barrio knows by heart. if 99% of the webcoverage is incorrect, and 1% is, how would the average joe know what to believe and what not to. and i guess when you get down to it, if your not in law enforcement why would it really matter, i mean all the symantics involved. it just makes me cringe when i see whats on the web or on the documentaries ive seen over the years. it almost seems like the media grabbed hold of it and created something all on its own. like reading world news or the inquirer. i know because now i live in texas and sometimes i hear people talking about the mara like they are experts or maybe even claiming to be members or know members and they are just so far off that its funny. if people could just get the idea that the mara started to protect them against mexicans out of their head i will be happy. thats a start. next just understand that theres an order to gang names, like the same way scientists classify species, ws mara salvatrucha 13 lgs hls pls, its all there if you know what your looking at, theres a side, a gang name, a prison affiliation, and a klik. in california latino gangs are either 13 or 14,in chicago they are folks or peoples, other regions have other systems of id, california blacks are bloods and crips, then in midwest states you get unholy unions that claim to be kansas city sureno folk crip riders and all kinds of stuff. what throws people off about mara is that since they label it as a salvadoran gang they try to separate it from its actual structure, or some may not know either way even if it had been a mexican gang, starting with some law enforcement. the media just shows up and watches for 5 seconds and forms its own opinion based on that and now feels confident they know the entire history of the mara and all the factors that contributed to it, then they may fill 45 minutes with recycled footage thats shot in various central american locations. the good ones may show the LA neighborhood, but its rare, and they still manage to misinform. what gets me is that when the documentary is on the mara they show the footage from el salvador and they always manage to show footage of 18st inadvertantly, or when its about 18st they manage to show a dude from mara in some of the clips. if they cant even get pictures with body tattos basically spelling out the guys gang right, what can you expect about the stuff that requires actual investigation.

Edit request from Jesterly82, 8 April 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} The origins of Mara Salvatrucha is incorrect. I believe the opening sentence

"Mara Salvatrucha (commonly abbreviated as MS, Mara, and MS-13) is a criminal gang that originated in Los Angeles"

should be changed to reflect the proper origin of the gang and be rewritten as

"Mara Salvatrucha (commonly abbreviated as MS, Mara, and MS-13) is a criminal gang that originated in El Salvador" Sources: http://www.knowgangs.com/gang_resources/profiles/ms13/ http://womenofcaliber.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/ms-13-101/ http://www.altereddimensions.net/crime/ms13gang.aspx There are many more sources that all state the same thing and that the gang originated in El Salvador Jesterly82 (talk) 05:53, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

 Done Corrected, and the reference cited to Los Angeles was left because it states correctly that the origin was El Salvador. Goodvac (talk) 06:00, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

origin of Mara Salvatrucha (name and location)

1.) There is NO street named "mara" in El Salvador. You can look at ANY map of El Salvador and will not find a street with that name. 2.) In El Salvador, the term "mara" means group of friends and is still widely used today. This was even before the civil war, so the notion that it was a group of guerrillas is also untrue.

It wasn't until the gang grew, by way of deportations, that the term "mara" evolved to mean "street gang", and now is synonimous with "Central American street gang" in some circles. It's true origin, as noted by the Diccionario de la Lengua Española (Real Academia dictionary of the Spanish language) means "people"

http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=mara mara.

1. f. El Salv., Guat., Hond. y Méx. Pandilla de muchachos.

2. f. El Salv. Gente, pueblo, chusma.

3.) Mara Salvatrucha started in Los Angeles, California and spread through North and Central America during the 1990's, mainly because of deportations.

Do a search of the archives of the Los Angeles Times and you will find articles dating back to the early 1980's. Here's one from 1989:

U.S.-L.A. Task Force Deports 175 With ties to Drug, Gang Activity [Home Edition]

</references> Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext) - Los Angeles, Calif. Author: STEPHEN BRAUN Date: Apr 12, 1989 Start Page: 3 Section: Metro; 2; Metro Desk Text Word Count: 588

Abstract (Document Summary) 
 

Though authorities did not provide specific details on the crimes committed by the deported gang members, they said that in one case, the task force decimated the leadership of Mara Salvatrucha, a Salvadoran street gang. John Brechtel, assistant district director for INS investigations in Los Angeles, said that more than 20 key members of the gang were deported.

Under the task force program, INS agents, police and sheriff's deputies target illegal aliens known to be gang members for deportation. Some are deported after they are arrested and charged with crimes. But in some cases, INS agents have deported gang members even if police have been unable to charge them with any illegal activities.

[Harold Ezell] said that about 9,000 aliens with felony convictions have been deported in the last six months from the INS Western Region, which encompasses California, Arizona, Nevada, Hawaii and Guam. Of those, 2,058 were deported from Los Angeles, he said.

More proof that Mara Salvatrucha started in Los Angeles, CA and spread to Central America and Mexico due to deportations:

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress05/swecker042005.htm

taken from this website: Statement of Chris Swecker Assistant Director, Criminal Investigative Division Federal Bureau of Investigation Before the Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere House International Relations Committee April 20, 2005

"Additionally, the deportation of MS-13 and 18th Street gang members from the United States to their countries of origin is partially responsible for the growth of those gangs in El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, and Mexico, "

Ssoul (talk) 18:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Brenda Paz

In tried to make a page on Brenda Paz, but this redirects already to this Mara Salvatrucha page. Can someone change this?

The book by Samuel Logan "This is for the Mara Salvatrucha" (2009) follows her tragic story. She became a member of the gang at age fifteen, witnessed and helped to commit many crimes, and was arrested at sixteen in connection with a robbery. Eager to escape the brutality, she began sharing information with the authorities. Her inside accounts of the most violent acts, private traditions, and secret symbols turned out invaluable to law enforcement officials. Despite being in the FBI's Witness Protection Program, Brenda was found dead within a year.

While other reporters have focused on the horrifying circumstances of Brenda's murder - she was 17, pregnant, and killed by her boyfriend. Logan interviewed key players in her last years of life, including her family, MS-13 members, the law enforcement officers and her lawyers, and the families of the victims of the gang's violence.

Thanx --JanDeFietser (talk) 18:01, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. Next time, when it redirects, click the name of the page you wanted and then edit out the redirect. --Anrkist (talk) 10:58, 15 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.219.137.55 (talk)

In Toronto 17 alleged members where charged with affiliations to this violent transnational hispanic street gang. Charges ranged from car theft to conspiracy to committ murder. Charged were: Jorge Salas 29, Luis Salas-Reyes 32, Carlos Platero 18, Hector Sanhueza 32, Ronald Moratay-Cruz 27, Manuel Pasos 19, Eddy Trujillo 32, Douglas Moreira 27, Rosa Martinez-Cabrera 23, Jason Jefferey 25, Evan Rodgers 25, Leita Knights 20, Jose Delgado Garcia 46, Syed Tariq 43, George Minchala 27, Michael Rosenbaun 27 and Danny Ruiz 24 all of Toronto. These arrests stem from a five month investigation into the Toronto chapter of MS-13. Toronto police acknowledge that this gang in particular is very serious and the threat needs to be dealt with immediately. Police say some MS-13 members have come into the country as refugees from Central America . They estimate there are about 50,000 worldwide and about 200 in Toronto .

links to verify

Interesting topic

I'm a current college student and I'm very interested on this topic of Salvadorian gangs. I'm taking a Latino Youth Immigration class and an US Immigration class and in both classes we have touched this topic. Actually, I'm working on a project about Salvadorian gangs. For those of you who are interesting on this topic there is a case going on right now in the United Sates about an ex-MS 13 member, Alex Sanchez, I think it is a relevant case on this topic that you should look up. --Carola09 (talk) 23:58, 24 April 2010 (UTC)Carola09--Carola09 (talk) 23:58, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

13

Why doesn't the article say anything about why they use the number 13 when shortening their name?It is because M is the 13th letter of the alpahbet 75.76.213.106 (talk) 22:03, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

uuuuuuuummmmmmmmm ms-13 no proof of being that big and isn't dangerous

I always here that MS is big and bad but never have proof of their numbers. In LA there are 2 sets of them. 1 in Koreatown and the other in Hollywood and both tegether barely make it over 400 members. Plus they have very small turfs and are constantly attacked so wouldn't be a good advertising when attacked and hated on all sides. They say inside America California has the biggest sets of MS but there numbers are puny compared to lets say 18st or Crips. They are only known now because the media glorified them around 2006 of only 1 murder compared to so many other super gangs who doesn't view them much as a threat but it's proven fact and known that in California the REAL most dangerous, numerous and active latino gang is Florencia 13 and the media is silence on them. Go to http://www.streetgangs.com/hispanic/florencia13ss.html and see yourself —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.94.173.73 (talk) 08:01, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 82.35.147.55, 19 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} MS13 do not borrowed the sign because they were going to heavy metal concerts. Inaccurate

82.35.147.55 (talk) 01:00, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide a (reliable) source to back this assertion? There is already a source supporting the statement that you are disputing. Intelligentsium 02:30, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Until we have a source for this, there is not a need to change the article. Please let us know when you have a good source, and we will make the change.

 Not done ^Avicenna_sis @ 02:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

False rumored ties with Al-Qaeda

There's no evidence that the ties with Al-Qaeda are a rumor. Show an article or some kind of reference. I deleted the "rumor" until somone want to come up with something to show it is, indeed, just a rumor. On that note, here's one of many articles that say they ARE involved with each other Acually I intially heard that it was false on Fox news. And have since heard and read it several times. Im going to find more articles outlining that it is purely sensational reporting influenced by an administration that lives day and night to create a climate of fear. However heres one that while certainly not pro ms 13 demonstrates that at the very least it is unproven. Its from the U.S.A. Today,,,,,,,,,, Ill documentmore later................ U.S. steps up battle against Salvadoran gang MS-13 By Danna Harman, USA TODAY SAN SALVADOR — A street gang based in El Salvador has rapidly spread in the USA and raised enough concern for the Justice Department to create a new task force to battle it. But the head of the task force says the gang has no al-Qaeda connections, despite a suggestion Monday by El Salvador's president that there may be a link.

Juan Carlos Miralda Bueso, 29, left, a former member of the MS-13 gang peers from his high security cell in Honduras. By Ginnette Riquelme, AP

"The FBI, in concert with the U.S. intelligence community and governments of several Central American republics, have determined that there is no basis in fact to support this allegation of al-Qaeda or even radical Islamic ties to MS-13 (Mara Salvatrucha)," says Robert Clifford, director of the new task force. Clifford is in El Salvador this week to discuss cooperation with his Central American counterparts.

Re-adding this. Removed by an IP earlier. --Kslotte (talk) 22:20, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Recent conviction and sentencing.

An MS-13 member was recently convicted of a double murder and sentenced to the death penalty: [6] --MichaelProcton (talk) 18:26, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Training Day

Is there anything to substantiate the claim that the Latino gang in Training Day is MS13? Given the slang used by Smiley & Co., I would have guessed that they were native-born of Mexican heritage, making it less likely that they would be in a Central American gang. Is there something in the movie that I'm missing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.23.244.241 (talk) 00:25, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

• • Nooooo!!!!.....they're are the guys in the begining when alonso and jake chase them white boys down the street in the monte carlo....you can hear Alonso say the dealers are "Salvatrucha's" Mcanmoocanu 12:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Etymology of salvatrucha

Regarding etymology, salvatrucha is the female gender grammatical inflection of male adjective salvatruche, which is a "tongue-in-cheek", benignly self-deprecatory pejorative used by Salvadorans on Salvadorans, with no insulting connotation at all. la Mara, derives from la marabunta, the massive and hyperactive marching formations of fierce army-ants of the tropics in the American continent. La marabunta is constituted of the female article la and the female noun marabunta. Hence mara is a female noun. In Spanish, persons, animals, plants, substances and all things in general (except for those explicitly neutral common name inflections, which are compound names made of a male adjective preceded by he neutral article lo, such as in lo benigno (the benign) and lo caro (the expensive)), have either female or male gender, such as in la mesa, (female) for the table and in el libro, (male) for the book. As a result, it is mara salvatrucha rather than mara salvatruche.Panchito42 (talk) 22:35, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for this amendment. It should also be noted that "caliche" is a word that refers to "slang," and "mara" is a word for gang that circulates in Salvadoran slang. What is the significance of the 13? Is it not an a street in LA, just like 18 refers to 18th street in DC? Moreover, news reports about the triple murder of college bound African-Americans by 5 Latinos and one other, one of whom has reported in testimony that the phrase "Remember the MS-13" preceded the shootings, suggests that the killings were gang-related and moreover, non-Salvadorans can be members of the MS-13190.43.136.201 (talk) 17:11, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

i don't have a single source to back me up on this, but when i was a kid, it was understood that the 13 in the name of latino gangs in los angeles, Venice 13, Santa Monica 13, Culver City 13, Sotel 13, referred to "m", the 13th letter of the alphabet, standing for marijuana. it's clearly unrelated to streets in los angeles, although there are latino gangs named after streets, e.g. Clanton 14. i see that it's not mentioned in any of these articles, so will try to either confirm or deny textually and put info in all these articles. will take a while possibly, as my access to books is severly curtailed at this point in time. — alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 13:34, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

The 13/M connection is used the same as Mexican Mafia (Surenos), and is a homage to the MM.--Chimino (talk) 03:43, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Using Copied/Published Text

In the "Publicized Crimes" section, the paragraph beginnign with a date and CHARLOTTE, NC-...is directly copied text from the source it cited for the information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.21.172 (talk) 08:19, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

technically it was a government press release, so it was public domain. however i have attempted to edit it to make it more wiki-style, with links, lists, and a chronological ordering of the information. thank you Decora (talk) 00:30, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Charlotte, North Carolina

Any particular reason the Charlotte cases take up so much of the article? They don't appear to be any more notable than the murders/large-scope trials in other cities (such as San Francisco). It should probably be made into a separate article if the community wishes the inner details of the cases to stay intact.--Chimino (talk) 02:08, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• There does seem to be some WP:UNDUE here and that whole section is all sourced from a FBI press release. While the press release is a reliable (primary) source, it does nothing to demonstrate coverage by reliable, third party sources that would justify so much attention. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:31, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

documentary

in the section " in film " it will be good to add this documentary from 2008 "la vida loca" "la vida loca" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.152.163.131 (talk) 12:19, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

color-coded map

can you guys also divide Mexico into states? this gives a misconception that they're uniformly in the whole country. States like CHihuahua, and Sonora barely have any presence while states like Chiapas and Tamaulipas do. The US and Canada are subdivided, why not Mexico? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.210.81.93 (talk) 22:46, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

The states in Mexico would be too small to show the world scale Ebrockway (talk) 05:05, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Change section In Films to In media

And add ross kemp on gangs' second season's first episode - El Salvador, which is about this gang.

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Ross_Kemp_on_Gangs#Series_2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.212.41.40 (talk) 11:31, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

MS-13 Origin - I seen in a documentary with one of the "founding" members of this gang and according to him it was started as a group of "punk rock" kids looking to protect eachother on the street