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French form of full name

Would the full form of the Duke of Anjou's name in French Louis Alphonse Gonsalve Victor Emanuel Marc de Bourbon? Thanks. Seven Letters 20:37, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Too long! Louis Alphonse is enough - with de Bourbon, of course. --Frania W. (talk) 22:41, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
I know what may or may not be enough but I am wondering if that would be the French form of all of his given names. Seven Letters 22:56, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
The French form: Louis Alphonse Gonzalve Victor Emmanuel Marc de Bourbon ("Gonzalve" with a *z*; "Emmanuel" with two *m*).
--Frania W. (talk) 02:03, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Again, never mind what we think his name should be. How does he name himself?Gazzster (talk) 11:22, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
This person being of both Spanish & French nationalities, what's wrong -on a discussion page - asking how his given names are spelled in both Spanish & French?
As for the "how does he name himself" question, one would have to be pretty close to him to find out... and the result would be qualified OR.
--Frania W. (talk) 13:43, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
He calls himself HRH The Prince Louis XX, Duke of Anjou. Seven Letters 14:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
I do not think that he would call himself "Prince" Louis XX... as you do not put the title "Prince" before that of a "King". Have you ever heard of "Prince Louis XIV"???
--Frania W. (talk) 14:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
You will see that using Prince in titles of articles about princes is standard on Wikipedia. For example: Prince William of Wales, Prince Harry of Wales, Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, etc. GorillaWarfare talk 14:41, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Is this lady [1] referred to as "Princess Elizabeth II"?
I believe that, as the pretender to the "*defunct* or not throne of France", the subject of this article is more likely to call himself "Louis de Bourbon".
--Frania W. (talk) 14:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
That's your opinion. Elizabeth II is queen de facto and de jure. Queen is higher than princess so we do not need to call her "Princess Elizabeth", although princess does appear in full styles. In that instance, prince(ss) is just a generic term for a ruler and not a title with a designation. The foundation of which Louis is hereditary patron calls him "the Prince Louis XX" and Louis Alphonse refers to his wife as a princess... Which she can only be if he is a prince. We accord titles of pretense to pretenders because that is what is usually done. Seven Letters 16:22, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
As far as "royal étiquette" is concerned, I find it hard to believe that a king, real, pretender, de facto or de jure, goes along with being addressed as:
  • "Prince + King's name".
"Prince" Louis XIV must be turning in his grave!
--Frania W. (talk) 17:23, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
It's not that unusual Alexander, Crown Prince of Yugoslavia calls himself Crown Prince Alexander II. - dwc lr (talk) 18:41, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
There is a difference between "prince" and "crown prince"="heir to the throne": "prince héritier" in French. --Frania W. (talk) 19:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes there is a difference but the similarity is they are both heirs to a throne and use the name they would reign under without actually adopting the title king. As far as I’m aware the only pretender to adopt the title king is Leka of Albania. - dwc lr (talk) 19:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
My personal preference would be Louis Alphonse de Bourbon, Duke of Anjou. john k (talk) 17:15, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Support title proposed by John K. --Frania W. (talk) 17:23, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Oppose Louis Alphonse of Bourbon, Duke of Anjou or as it is, Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou. Preferably the latter. Seven Letters 19:17, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Why do you prefer "of Bourbon"? "de Bourbon" (or "de Borbón") is his last name. john k (talk) 00:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Because he is of the house of Bourbon. Honestly, I don't want it included at all. I like it as much as I'd like "Albert Grimaldi, Prince of Monaco", "Alexander Karageorgevich, Crown Prince of Yugoslavia" or "Franz Prinz von Bayern, Duke of Bavaria" (which is not at all!). Seven Letters 00:41, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
French, Spanish, and Italian royals, though, have always used surnames in a way that Germanic and Slavic royals didn't. The last cited person's name is actually "Franz Herzog von Bayern", by the way. john k (talk) 15:49, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
We do not have surnames for any other legitimate Franco-Iberian royalty. Seven Letters 16:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
That does seem to be the case, although I think that is a mistake. I'd be happy with Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou. john k (talk) 18:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually, Slavic royals use surnames. Russian and Serbian royals are just examples of 20th-century Slavic royals that used surnames. Anyway, I have always been puzzled by this man's name. What is his legal name? Is he legally Luis Alfonso de Borbon or Louis Alphonse de Bourbon? I may be wrong, but it seems to me that he is a citizen of Spain - thus, it would be likely that Luis Alfonso de Borbon is his name. Surtsicna (talk) 11:53, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
He is also a citizen of France because his father was French through his own mother, Emmanuelle de Dampierre. His name on French ID card is S.A.R. de Bourbon, duc d'Anjou, Louis Alphone. So, if the article lists him as "Duke of Anjou", a French title, and mentions his being "claimant" or "pretender" to the throne of France as "Louis XX", why should the title of the article of this French citizen be Luis Alfonso de Borbón?
Who said that the title of the article "of this French citizen" should be Luis Alfonso de Borbón? Surtsicna (talk) 12:39, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
What was meant - and sorry if I was not clear - was that in an article describing him as Duke of Anjou, and "would be" Louis XX of France, and because he is also a French citizen, there is nothing wrong in using the "legal French form" of his name, Louis Alphonse de Bourbon.
--Frania W. (talk) 12:59, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

French Claimant? So far no-one has cited one reference for the extraordinary claims in the lead that he is a claimnt to the French throne (which does not exist) nor that he styles himself Louis XX?Gazzster (talk) 06:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I myself prefer to avoid using terms claimants/pretenders if I would do an article I would probably say Head of the House as I think that suffices because the two are synonyms with one another but that’s just my own personal view. There are sources calling him a pretender/claimant though. [2][3] - dwc lr (talk) 14:00, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Is this really an extraordinary claim? Obviously France is a republic, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. john k (talk) 15:49, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
If one will only accept "I am the King of France, even though it isn't a kingdom" or "I claim the throne of France" as proof of being a claimant, there are a lot of critters over at Pretender who waddle, quack & have webbed feet but can't be called "ducks". Given the evidence already cited here, no further point trying to meet this artificially narrow definition of "claimant". Could you refer to Margaret Thatcher as "she", "her", "Mrs." or "Lady" on Wikipedia if told you must first produce a cite for Thatcher saying "I am female"? FactStraight (talk) 02:13, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Many here seem to believe, without serious research, that simply because this Louis person is one of the descendants of one of the former French monarchical houses and the head thereof , he must be claiming the title of king. It doesn't follow! We don't know he's a duck because we haven't any proof he has webbed feet! Just because he is head of his house doesn't mean he lays claim to all his family's ancient titles and privileges. Many here, and on the other 'Pretender' pages have a very broad and odd interpretation of pretender. They seem to think that simply because a monarch is heir to an abolished title one actually possesses the title or at least claims it! This is nonsense.The last Shah of Iran was a true pretender, for he had not renounced the throne of Iran. James Stuart, called by his supporters II of England and VII of Scotland was a true pretender, for he he had not renounced his titles. But Otto von Habsburg is not a true pretender, for not only does he not claim the former crowns of Austria and Hungary, but has renounced them. The same can be said for the former royal houses of Italy, Germany, the 'Jacobite' succession in the house of Bavaria, etc, etc. To argue reductio ad absurdum, if mere inheritance of a dead title made a pretender, Elizabeth II would be a pretender to the 'thrones' of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, South Africa,etc, and dare I say, to the 'throne' of the United States of America! It worries me that not one or two editors here seem to take their royalist sympathies too seriously, and seem to assign this poor man dignities he does not actually possess or claim. But as I say, if someone can produce references to indicate that he refers to himself as 'Louis XX', fine. It is of course illegal and treasonous in France to claim the throne of France. And so, he would be unlikely to do so. OK, then show from other sources that he makes such a claim.It's not unreasonable.Gazzster (talk) 21:46, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
It is not a question of "believing without serious research" (thank you for the compliment), it is the simple fact of looking at a family tree, and the family tree of the "dude" takes us all the way back to Hugues Capet, Saint Louis, Henri IV, Louis XIII, Louis XIV... So, if the French ever decided to again have a king, they would pick one from two branches of that tree, and if it was that "dude", he would be "King Louis XX"; and if it was the "Orléans dude", he would be "King Henri VII"; and if the French did not want a king, they simply would elect a "Président de la République". If you are a "history buff", you like to look into the past & how the present is related to it, and you tell yourself: "if the French had a king, it could be either this "Louis dude" or that "Henri dude" or maybe even that "Nappy dude" - tout simplement. That is the spirit to look at it as none of these "dudes" is pushing his claim or his pretension to the point of attacking the Republic and having another Revolution. They simply enjoy being the descendants of & neither you nor I know how they are addressed to in private - could very well be Sa Majesté.
--Frania W. (talk) 00:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
If, as you say, no-one knows how he is addressed in private, why is this article interpreting his claim on his behalf? I find it vaguely amusing and not a little odd that you think this article should be edited according to 'the spirit'. Whose spirit? The spirit of the royalists here who would love him to be Louis XX, or the spirit of the man himself? Well, according to you, we don't know what he holds in private. So why are we presuming to know? He may well very well refer to himself as 'Sa Majeste', if he was suffering from flu-induced delirium or overmedication, but we don't know.I was under the impression that Wikipedia needed to be edited according to verifiable fact. Sure, if the French ever decided to return to monarchy they might choose one of the descendants of one of the plethora of ex-royal houses, or start a new one- and Monsieur de Bourbon might be chosen and he might choose the name Louis XX. But this is unlikely to the point of near certainty, and it is treason in France to claim the throne of France. So a candidate is unlikely to present himself or herself (unless the French want to return to Salic law). No, the 'spirit' of the thing, as you call it, smacks of the spirit of the editors. Let's base our editing on fact.Gazzster (talk) 21:23, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Gazzster, are not you kind of twisting the meaning of what I wrote? "That is the spirit to look at it" was not meant "the spirit to edit Wikipedia articles", but was referring to previous sentence: "If you (meaning people in general/FW) are a "history buff", you like to look into the past & how the present is related to it, and you tell yourself: "if the French had a king...".
I am not pushing calling him "Louis XX", but you cannot ignore or deny the fact that to the eyes of the legitimistes that is what he would be, should he be king of France, and if you read one of my comments above, you will see that I am one person against having the title "Prince" in the title of the article, and have proposed to have the title of the article as Louis Alphonse de Bourbon, Duke of Anjou.
--Frania W. (talk) 12:16, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't think anyone is saying he is "claiming the title of king". He is claiming to be the head of the royal house of France. That's basically the key issue. Otto Habsburg, in spite of his renunciations, is still treated as the Habsburg pretender because he remains head of the family, and that, effectively, is what a pretender or claimant is in the modern world. As for the subject of this article, here's a blogger at the Telegraph calling him Louis XX. Does that count as a source? Whatever he may call himself, French royalists pretty clearly sometimes refer to him as Louis XX. john k (talk) 06:53, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
We're still kinda missing the point. The lead here says Louis de Bourbon is a 'claimant to the French throne'. So according to us, he is 'claiming the title of king', John Kenney.As for that Telegraph blogger, he's a private devotee claiming a royal name for his hero. It's dicey using bloggers as sources. A good source would be, as I have suggested, de Bourbon himself, or a spokesperson for his house, or a spokesperson for a society of supporters affiliated with the French Bouron house. With what justification do you assert that a person who renounces a royal claim remains a 'pretender or claimant' by virtue of being head of a royal house? Was Edward Windsor 'pretender or claimant' to the throne of Great Britain after explicitly abdicating his claim and those of his descendants? Is Elizabeth II 'pretender or claimant' to the throne of France, even though her predecessor George III explicitly renounced he claim on behalf of himself and his descendants? Headship of former royal house does not a claimant make. Of course they inherit a history, the family wealth, and perhaps a certain prestige. In pretender it claims that person does not need to make a claim in order to be a claimant. To which is attached a note, 'citation needed, and I agree.Gazzster (talk) 02:07, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
In an interview done in June 2010 in New York by Olivier O'Mahony for Paris Match (first & second pages: [4] [5]), Louis de Bourbon mentions a couple of times being the "prétendant" since the death of his brother François in 1984, "à 18 ans, j'ai joué pleinement mon rôle de prétendant au trône de France", talks about the eldest of his twins as Dauphin de France, and that if the French ask him to become king of France, he will not refuse: "Si les Français m'appellent, je ne me déroberai pas. Mais je ne revendique rien", this last sentence meaning "I am not claiming anything", which suggests a difference between "claimant" & "pretender", and does not mean that he ever "renounced" the throne of France: he recognises his place as "pretender", but does not "claim" the throne. He also says that he is both Spanish & French and that he went to the French consulate in New York to declare the birth of his twins under the name Bourbon.
--Frania W. (talk) 04:29, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
At last! A proper source. Great. Use that to source the article. You could even insert direct quotations from that inyerview, provided they're translated correctly of course. Thank you! Gazzster (talk) 11:27, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Gazzster, Oh! la! la! I could not be more surprised than receiving a compliment from you.
Mon Dieu! On aura tout vu !--Frania W. (talk) 12:55, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Merky! I certainly uunderstand, and share the interest in dispossessed royal houses. Heck, that's why I'm here. But I genuinely wanted a source. And you've found a beauty. Some people have to be pains in the arse to get things going. Still, can't help thinking why doesn't that hot young man just get a proper life and enjoy himself as a private citizen, instead of carrying the tenuous hopes of some ancient families who have never reconciled themselves to the Republic. Or, for that matter, to the Orleanists and Bonapartes. Sorry, not the forum for that discussion. Cheers!Gazzster (talk) 09:56, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page not moved. harej 08:53, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


Prince Louis, Duke of Anjou → Louis Alphonse of Bourbon — See Talk:Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma, where we decided not to recognise a title of nobility in a country which declared a republic and abolished its nobility. There is a plethora of claimants to the French throne, this person is not even the only claimant to be Duke of Anjou. PatGallacher (talk) 17:08, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Oppose. There's a difference; this is a courtesy title, which the subject is actually described by - like his ancestor Henry, Count of Chambord. The conflicting claims of the French pretenders are not our business; if there were fifteen men claiming to be Duke of Anjou, we'd list them all, if common usage permitted. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:55, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
I looked up courtesy title but just got a redirect to "Courtesy titles in the United Kingdom". This suggests that this term is, at the very least, vague and ill-defined outside the UK, and people do not appear to be using it in the way it is used in the UK e.g. there can be only one holder of the courtesy title. PatGallacher (talk) 18:30, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
That the term is not as well known with regard to other peerages and systems of titles does not mean it does not have an application outside of the UK. Seven Letters 18:32, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
Oppose "We" did not decide anything. A title is a name and does not always depend on the current laws of the territory where the land used to be. Titles are used all of the time for members of deposed royal families. For instance, the consent Elizabeth II gave to the marriage of Ernst August Prinz von Hannover (legal name) as "HRH Prince Ernst August of Hanover,... etc" (style and common usage). Seven Letters 18:21, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

I have had a look at the French and Spanish wikipedias. The former calls him "Louis de Bourbon", the article does call him "duc d'Anjou" but puts this quotes and describes it as a "titre de courtoisie" (anyone whose French is up to it is welcome to have a look at this article, it might shed some light). The latter calls him "Luis Alfonso de Borbón" and describes him primarily as "Legitimist pretender to the French throne", his alleged ducal title does not get much mention. This suggests that this title is not treated entirely seriously in the two countries with which he is most associated, at the very least it is not equivalent to a courtesy title in the UK. PatGallacher (talk) 18:49, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

  • Oppose this man is known by the title. I'm not particularly familiar with French nobility but I believe titles are even recognised in the French Republic. - dwc lr (talk) 19:51, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
    • Actually, they are so commonly used in part because the Republic does not recognize or regulate them. One branch of the Bourbon pretenders suec the other and the juge held that there was no justiciable issue here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:28, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
      • In particular, I think the Count of Paris (Bourbon-Orléans) sued the Duke of Anjou over the use of the undifferentiated arms of (royal) France (Azure, three fleurs-de-lys or). The court dismissed the case as out of their jurisdiction (dynastic matters). Seven Letters 20:35, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
        • From what I gather from his article of the French wikipedia his national identity cards reads "S.A.R. de Bourbon, duc d'Anjou, Louis Alphonse". His fathers certainly did it seems from a link given in the article.[6] - dwc lr (talk) 01:09, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose the change in the form being proposed, but
  • in favor of Louis Alphonse *de* Bourbon
The title "Prince" must be dropped. I cannot understand the title "Prince" & "Princesse" en:wiki is liberally pouring over the head of French royals who never held that title.
It must? Frania, in a speech he referred to his wife as "la Princesse Marie Marguerite"... She was not a princess before marriage so he must be a prince. And OBVIOUSLY it is contested by the Orléanists but it is not our place to pick sides! Seven Letters 15:26, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
I simply do not understand why "Prince"/"Princess" must be put in front of their names. Anglo wiki is the only one to give such a title preceding the name in the title of the article. At the old French court, the whole of the royal related family was mentioned as "Les princes et les princesses", but each in particular was "Monseigneur le Dauphin", "Madame Victoire", "Monsieur le Duc" etc. "Prince & princesse" was only a polite way of talking about them, not specially an official title. There was no title "Prince de France", "Princesse de France". It is only when Louis Philippe I came to the throne in 1830 that he created the titles of "Prince d'Orléans & Princesse d'Orléans" for his children & his sister.
I am not trying to be "smart", but the use of "prince" as an official title troubles me because I am not sure it is "officially" correct, but only a way of speaking, of addressing the personage. If Louis Alphonse de Bourbon is "prince", he is prince of what? "Prince de France"?
As far as I understand, only the Orléans use the title "Prince", as for : [7]. By the way, please note the use of "duc d'Anjou" for "Charles-Philippe d’Orléans":
  • Actuelle Maison d'Anjou. Duc apanage : Prince Charles-Philippe d’Orléans (1973- ... ), titularisé duc d’Anjou le 8 décembre 2004 par son Oncle, Monseigneur le Comte de Paris, Duc de France (de jure Henri VII de France), Chef de la Maison Royale de France.
--Frania W. (talk) 16:52, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
The title duc d'Anjou, contested in France by the orléanistes, was first taken up in Spain by Jacques de Bourbon (1870-1931) - well explained in fr:wiki articles [8] - [9] - [10] -

--Frania W. (talk) 22:39, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Before we get too carried away here, let's bear in mind that at present, the article has no supporting references for any title assigned to this person, real, presumptive or otherwise.Let's find out what the bloke himself says, for it seems that there are a few people here who are interpreting history on his behalf.Gazzster (talk) 11:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Here [11]. The Institute of the House of Bourbon was founded by his grandfather. He succeeded his father and acts as Head of the House of Bourbon and therefore titular King of France and Navarre. Seven Letters 14:14, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
There is no throne of France, titular or otherwise. The throne of France has been abolished. Where do you come up with 'titular'? Certainly not from the dude himself!Gazzster (talk) 06:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
If "There is no throne of France, titular or otherwise", what are we doing writing such an article on such a "dude"? Why not delete it? --Frania W. (talk) 14:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose The precedent cited of Carlos Hugo of Bourbon-Parma is already being challenged as an inappropriate move. While I'd prefer "Louis Alphonse de Bourbon, duc d'Anjou", the present title is much better than the proposed one because that would strip him of a title which, deliberately denied him by his cousin the King of Spain for POV reasons, is accorded him by nearly all French legitimists, and means that he claims to be heir to the heritage of the Kings of France -- not to be "King of France". Debrett's Peerage, 2007, p.125 says, "Don Luis Alfonso...de Borbon y Martinez-Bordiu, recognized by some French legitimists as head of the Royal House of France and as such styled Louis XX". FactStraight (talk) 01:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)"
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Louis XX

I know his family considers him to be rightfully Louis XX, but it is established that if he becomes king, he will definitely have that number and not XIX, since the "Louis XIX" was merely a pretender? 98.209.116.7 (talk) 21:12, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

That is the number used for him by his supporters. Noel S McFerran (talk) 21:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
If you would wish to take the time to read the beauty of French royal history, every Senior Capet starting with Hugh Capet to Charles X, (987-1830) is also the King of France. Louis XVII, son of Louis XVI, never reigned as king. Yet, he survived his father Louis XVI and thus, for a brief time, became the Senior Capet. However, he died before the Bourbons were restored to the throne. His uncle, who took the regnal name Louis, succeeded him as the Senior Capet, and was restored to the throne as Louis XVIII, recognizing the seniority of his deceased nephew. When Charles X abdicated in 1830, his son Louis became Louis XIX. Twenty minutes later, Louis XIX also abdicated, at the behest of his father Charles X, in favor of his nephew, Henry V.Emerson 07 (talk) 08:02, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Jacobin Pretender

He also is the senior Salic law succession from Charles I of England, oddly enough. The direct line has no French kings at all!

  • CHARLES I ->
  • DAUGHTER HENRIETTA ANNE OF ENGLAND ->
  • DAUGHTER ANNE MARIE OF ORLEANS ->
  • DAUGHTER MARIA LOUVISA OF SAVOY->
  • SON FERDINAND VI OF SPAIN ->
  • SON CHARLES III OF SPAIN ->
  • SON CHARLES IV OF SPAIN ->
  • SON FRANCISCO de PAULA of SPAIN ->
  • SON FRANCIS OF SPAIN ->
  • ALFONZO XII OF SPAIN ->
  • ALFONZO XIII OF SPAIN ->
  • JAIME DUKE OF SEGOVIA ->
  • ALFONZO DUKE OF ANJOU AND CADIZ ->
  • LOUIS ALPHONSE DUKE OF ANJOU

Benkenobi18 (talk) 02:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

1. There is a HUGE difference between Jacobin and Jacobite. There is no such thing as a "Jacobin pretender" to England.
2. There is a HUGE difference between senior co-heir general and Salic heir. Charles I has no Salic heir (i.e. male line only).
3. Anne Marie of Orléans had a son Charles Emmanuel III of Sardinia. It is through him that the Jacobite succession is traced and comes today to Franz, Duke of Bavaria. Noel S McFerran (talk) 13:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Even though I have no sympathy for the young pretender (his behaviour was worse than his own father, who in 1719 got chuffed out of France), I am glad that the young pretender never had to know what is a jacobine. Jacobites however (especially this one) was so royalistic, that Enoch Powel must have been a communist. Jacobines, they were so leftwing, that even Arthur Scargill looks like a royalist who would never be seen at a pub with a pint of bitter. The only thing that is more gay, is that some people dont know there is/was a difference betwwen these two.--82.134.28.194 (talk) 12:41, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Even wiki says: Jacobinism is unrelated to Jacobitism or the English Jacobean period. --82.134.28.194 (talk) 14:18, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

If you really understood Salic Law, you would not include women in that lineage. Charles I of England is not an agnatic ancestor of Louis, Duke of Anjou. Every person has one patriline only. Louis, Duke of Anjou, is a male-line descendant of the House of Bourbon, of the Capetian dynasty. Thus, he cannot also be a male-line descendant of the House of Stuart. The heir of Charles I, if Salic Law applies, would be his most senior, legitimate male-line descendant. Today, that would be nobody. Legitimate agnatic descendants of the House of Stuart had become extinct at the death of Cardinal Henry Benedict Stuart, grandson of King James II of England. However, several illegitimate agnatic branches of the House of Stuart exist, descended from the illegitimate sons of Charles II and James II.Emerson 07 (talk) 08:26, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Louis Alphonse is precluded from the throne by French Law

Louis Alphonse is precluded from the throne by French Law as first established under Henri III and reconfirmed under Henri IV, Louis XIII, and Louis XIV. Firstly, he is foreign born. Secondly, King Philip renounced his claim to the French Throne.

1) Preclusion owing to foreign birth.

This was written into French law to preclude claims by the [then foreign] House of Lorraine on behalf of the Marquis of Pont-a-Mousson (later Henry II, Duke of Lorraine) by reason of his descent from Claude de Valois, and by Philip II of Spain on behalf of his daughter, Isabella Clara Eugenia by reason of her descent from Elisabeth de Valois. It should be noted that, custom notwithstanding, no written law existed prior to this time that precluded descent through the female line. Further, it has been claimed by supporters of Louis Alphonse Henri IV was foreign-born, yet allowed to succeed to the Crown. However, his predecessor, Henri III, in accordance with royal prerogative, had recognized Henri as citizen of France, prince of the blood, and rightful successor to the throne.

It was the House of Lorraine which is "foreign". Members of the House of Bourbon, wherever they were, are French. Individual nationality is a relatively new concept. Emerson 07 (talk) 05:26, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

2) King Philip’s renunciation

In re this latter point, Wikipedia article states:

“Legitimists regard this [renunciation] as invalid, because, under the fundamental law of French monarchy, neither a king nor his heirs can renounce the claim to a throne they hold but do not possess. Luis Alfonso is the current claimant, in the view of this group.”

This position is legally invalid. During the reign of Henri IV, the Courtenay heir disputed the right of Henri IV’s eldest son (later Louis XIII) to succeed to the throne and claimed right of succession. Said Courtenay’s father had signed away his rights by contract with Henri III. Using essentially the same argument put forward by supporters of Louis Alphonse, said Courtenay claimed his father did not have the right to renounce his claim to the throne, on either his own behalf or that of his heirs. Judgment was rendered against Courtenay in favor of Louis XIII on this specific issue of law. Continued claims by the Courtenays seeking acknowledgment as princes of the blood were further denied under Louis XIV on the basis of this same issue of law.

The Courtenays cannot dispute the right of the descendants of Henry IV. The Courtenays were descendants in male line of Louis VI, while the Bourbons were of Louis IX. Thus, the Courtenays were genealogically junior to the Bourbons. Even by Salic law they were so far down the line of succession, and their appanages were really small and insignificant compared to the other Capetians. What they were really claiming from the Bourbons was recognition of their status as princes of the blood. Emerson 07 (talk) 05:26, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Additionally, supporters of Louis Alphonse purport succession was not lost by reason of his line’s holding a foreign throne. As precedent, they cite the succession of Henri III to the throne of France, after having held the throne of Poland-Lithuania. However, prior to accepting the Polish crown, Henri III obtained by written contract confirmation that, by reason of accepting the Polish throne, he did not give up his right to the French throne. King Philip and/or his line obtained no such written contract or confirmation of their continued rights to the French throne. It should be further noted that Louis Alphonse is in direct conflict with French Law by purporting to be a knight of the Order of the Holy Spirit (Ordre du Saint-Esprit), which (1) was dissolved, and (2) by its charter can only be conferred by the [reigning] King of France.

In the Treaty of Utrecht, Philip V of Spain renounced his claim to the French throne for himself and his descendants, on the condition that Spain shall be inherited by his descendants through Salic Law. Assuming that the treaty is valid, the renunciation made by Philip was invalidated when Ferdinand VII of Spain repealed Salic Law. Further, it is clear that Philip V did not wish the renunciation to take effect. In the Treaty of Utrecht, he states "I declare, and hold myself for excluded and separated, me, and my Sons, Heirs, and Descendents for ever, for excluded, and disabled absolutely, and without Limitation, Difference and Distinction of Persons, Degrees, Sexes and Time, from the Act and Right of succeeding to the crown of France..." http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/utrecht.htm This means even his cognatic descendants are excluded from the French line of succession. With this complication, there will be some future time in the foreseeable future during which the heir of the House of Orleans would also be a descendant of Philip V, and thus ineligible for the succession to the French throne. Ferdinand Philippe, Duke of Orléans, ancestor of the current Orleanist claimant, is a fourth-generation descendant of Philip V through his mother. With this complication, it would have been all or nothing. Either the clause stands, or it does not. If it stands, neither the male-line descendants of Philip or the House of Orleans would be eligible to become King of France. If it does not stand, then the descendants of Philip have precedence over the descendants of Orleans. Emerson 07 (talk) 05:26, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move: Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou --> Louis Alphonse de Bourbon

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page not moved per discussion. - GTBacchus(talk) 08:51, 21 July 2011 (UTC)


Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou → Louis Alphonse de Bourbon – This pretender to the French throne is commonly given as either "Louis de Bourbon" or as "Louis Alphonse de Bourbon". As he is not the primary topic for "Louis de Bourbon", I am recommending this form. On his Web site, he is "Le Prince Louis XX" and "Louis Alphonse de Bourbon, duc d'Anjou".[12] As he is not legally recognized as a noble, he should be placed at the most common form of his name, without honorifics or self-bestowed titles. (Relisted, after notifying 3 WikiProjects. More input would be good here, I think. -GTBacchus(talk) 22:01, 8 July 2011 (UTC)) Kauffner (talk) 08:19, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Although many sources describe Louis as the duke of Anjou, his name is most commonly given without this title. The style "Personal name, Ordinal (if appropriate) Peerage title" is from WP:NCROY, and thus not something one would expect to find in the secondary sources. As this title is not legally recognized, the page belongs at a WP:COMMONNAME. “For claimants to titles which have been suppressed...follow the general article titling policy", according to NCROY. France’s Ministry of Justice does actually recognize titles of nobility, but not this one. The Orleanist pretender sued over this and other alleged Bourbon infringements on his pretender status in 1988, but the court ruled that title “duke of Anjou" had been abolished in 1790. The title was traditionally held by a senior prince not in line for the throne, equivalent to Duke of York. Louis’ grandfather, a Spanish prince, started using it soi-disant in 1946.

This chart shows how the name appears in reliable sources:

Term Google Books since 1980 Google News since 1990
"Louis Alphonse de Bourbon" 30 16
Anjou "Prince Louis de Bourbon" 24 19
"Prince Louis Alphonse" 9 5
"Prince Louis de Bourbon, Duke of Anjou” 1 1
"Louis Alphonse, duc d'Anjou" 5 0
"Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou" 0 0
"Louis-Alphonse de Bourbon, duke of Anjou" 0 0
"Duke of Anjou, Louis-Alphonse de Bourbon" 0 3

Some of these results are in French, but I don’t think there is any issue of his name being different in English than it is in French, aside from the duc versus “duke” issue. I get 30+16+24+19+9+5 = 103 for the various forms without “Duke of Anjou” as part of the name, compared to 1+1+5+3=10 for those with the title. If we take "prince" as a signifier of his pretender status rather than as a title of nobility, it can be dropped off like "president", "general", "Mr.", "Dr.", etc. Kauffner (talk) 07:58, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

The court case referred to above is titled Prince Henri Philippe Pierre Marie d'Orléans et autres c. Prince Alphonse de Bourbon (21-12-1988). So even though the French courts don't accept the "duke of Anjou" title, they are happy to call you "prince" if that's what you want to be called. Kauffner (talk) 01:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Oppose The claim is made above that "On his Web site, he is called ..." The Institut de la Maison is not "his web site" (although they are supportive of his claims). His website is the Institut Duc d'Anjou [13] where he signs his name "Louis, Duc d'Anjou". Noel S McFerran (talk) 15:31, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Oppose per Noel McFerran. Also his father had duc d'Anjou on his passport quite possible the same applies for Louis Alphonse. - dwc lr (talk) 01:56, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

His legal French name is “Louis Alphonse de Bourbon” and his legal Spanish name is “SAR Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez-Bordiú." So if anything about Anjou appeared on his documents, that would certainly be irregular. His father obviously found a local prefect who was willing to play along. These documents are centrally issued nowadays, so it is not possible to do that kind of thing anymore. Kauffner (talk) 07:39, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Oppose per Noel. Nightw 07:27, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Support, how can he be 'duke of Anjou', when France is a republic? GoodDay (talk) 12:15, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Titular

"Titular" means "existing in title only." That is to say, it implies that he holds the various titles officially or rightfully, but doesn't exercise the authority. (Perhaps because that would be beneath him?) Kauffner (talk) 04:20, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

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