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Chambord is a place

Just for the record:

  • Chambord is a place and NOT a person.
  • Henri Comte de Chambord/Henry Count of Chambord or Comte de Chambord/Count of Chambord or Henri/Henry are/were persons.

Str1977 (smile back) 08:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Chambord is a place and a person. "Comte de Chambord" can legitimately be shortened to "Chambord." A good percentage of British peers' peerage titles are places, but we still call them "Norfolk," "Castlereagh," "Salisbury," and so forth. john k 12:44, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
John is correct. Particularly with individuals such as the Count of Chambord, the use of the territorial designation to refer to the person itself is not uncommon. Charles 20:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


Morganatic marriage

According to the article concerning his father, Louis-Alphonse was born into a morganatic marriage. So, how can he rightfully claim the French throne? --Anglius 20:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, France has never been keen on enforcing the status loss in that way. Earlier French dynasts have married under high aristocracy, and it did not hinder their descendants' succession rights. Morganatic marriage is very much a German concept. Shilkanni 11:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Please explain this to me: since his parents marriage was annulled, why is he still considered to be the legitimate heir?

Annulment does not always (and now rarely does) result in the illegitimacy of a child. Charles 21:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
He was born a legitimate child, during the period the marriage was legitimate. Changes afterwards in the marriage situation does not affect this. Stijn Calle 12:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

King of Albania

Why is Louis de Bourbon a pretender to the Albanian throne? I don't remember the House of Bourbon having reigned in Albania... (?) - Louis88 17:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello? - Louis88 15:13, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Stijn Calle added the category. But Louis Alphonse could be the heir of the Angevin Kings of Albania who belonged to the House of Valois which was a cadet branch of the Capetian dynasty of which Louis Alphonse is the senior member. - dwc lr 15:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, he is. Stijn Calle 16:06, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
If the title of King of Albania was held by a junior branch of the family, it doesn't mean it belongs to Louis Alphonse now as head of the house. The only way is if he is a lineal representative of that particular title. Charles 00:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

King of Jerusalem

I read that HM Juan Carlos of Spain is the Bourbon pretender to the throne of Jerusalem (see Kings of Jerusalem) - they can't be both, now which article is right? - Louis88 10:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

If there can be more than one pretender to the throne of Jerusalem, there can be more than one Bourbon pretender to the throne. It depends upon whether one sees the claim to Jerusalem as having been permanently united to Spain. When Louis Alphonse's grandfather, Infante Jaime, Duke of Segovia, renounced Spain, did he also renounce Jerusalem? Since Jerusalem had no requirement of equal marriage (as Spain did), Jaime's son Alfonso, Duke of Anjou and Cádiz could be a dynast of Jerusalem and pass on his rights to his son Louis Alphonse. Noel S McFerran 12:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

This page was vandalised yesterday by an anonymous person, who wanted to discredit Louis Alphonse in an sexually offensive and graphic way. Stijn Calle 07:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Usually when vandals do such things, they do not include an edit summary. In this case, the individual wrote, "Fixed various syntax and spelling mistakes"; this was highly misleading. Noel S McFerran 11:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Why not use his real name

If he was born as Luis Alfonso (on his Spanish birth certificate) and on his French Identaty card states Luis Alfonso, and when he is written up in magazines as Luis Alfonso, why did we name him "Louis Alphonse"? We use Juan Carlos I and not John Charles I. Callelinea 22:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

HRH in opening line.

I am not sure why Terrence Darnell thinks removing HRH from the opening line of this article constitutes vandalism. Certainly, the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) under the heading Honorific prefixes states: "(3) Styles shall not be used to open articles on royalty and popes. Thus the article on Pope Benedict XVI shall not begin 'His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI . . . ' nor the article on Queen Victoria begin 'Her Majesty Queen Victoria . . .'" It would appear beyond dispute that this article should not begin with HRH which, according to wikipedia, stands for "His Royal Highness." I also note that the HRH was removed from this article previously and then reinstated by someone. Is there some type of campaign to promote this person? Whatever the case, HRH in the opening lines is clearly against Wikipedia style guidelines. Accordingly, I am removing the HRH.

--ThomasK107 07:00, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The vandalism was not in removing HRH from the opening line of the article, but it was in the multiple lies full of hate written by the IP 205.188.116.130 in his/her edit [1].

--Terence Darnell 19:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the following sentence should be included in the article: "He is recognised as His Royal Highness by the French Minister of Justice." Nobility titles ("comte", "duc",...) are only recognized by the French Republic as a part of the name (and included as such on official documents), but "H.R.H" is not one of those titles. Refer to this offical court transcript of a dispute between two former pretendants to the throne: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/proces2.htm, and note that "Son Altesse Royale" (His Royal Highness) never appears in the document.

Mrglass123 (talk) 00:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)mrglass123

I have no evidence regarding Louis Alphonse himself - which is why today I added the {{Fact}} tag. However, in the case of his father, uncle, and grandmother, it is certain that they are/were recognised with the style "Son Altesse Royale" by the French Republic. "S.A.R." appears on the French national identity cards of all three. Noel S McFerran (talk) 01:23, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean exactly by "recognised"? Except this possible mention on their identity card (themselves less official than the 'Etat-civil' anyway), this title certainly never appears on official documents or laws. Again, refer to the court transcript linked above, during this dispute between two would-be-Kings, never once is SAR (HRH) used. Saying he is "recognised" as "His Royal Highness" by the State also implies that royalty still has a place in the French legal system, which is obviously false.
"Recognised" means that the HRH style is used by the French Republic on a legal document that it issues for the purpose identification of individuals. You cannot "except this possible mention on their identity card": that is to ignore the kind of act on the part of the French Republic that is intended and is accepted as the nation's legal designation for French residents and/or citizens. It need not be the only designation which the Republic uses in order for it to be an official and/or legal designation. Howsoever "obviously false" it may appear for the French Republic to recognise "royalty", if in fact the Republic does so -- it does so. The court's ruling on the Anjou vs Orleans lawsuit does accord the title of "Prince" to parties of the suit, even if not HRH. But given that neither's princely title derives from any non-French fount of honour, how is that usage any less indicative of their "royalty" than HRH? Until 1950, the heads of France's former reigning dynasties and their heirs were banished from the Republic. That law was enforced by expelling some of those persons from French soil several times since the 1880s. That law and each enforcement thereof constituted "recognition" of royalty -- the more so because the reason for the banishment was those dynasties' potential for arousing public repudiation of the republic and restoration of monarchy. French law does not deny the existence of "royalty", only of monarchy. At the moment. Lethiere (talk) 08:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Well this definition of "recognised" is far-fetched at best. Unless you can prove Louis Alphonse has special "royal" powers or rights recognized by the French Republic, I will edit the page to clarify the amount of "recognition" he has: a possible title on his Identity Card (a fact that still has not been proven in the citations). In particular, if you have any evidence of current French laws barring his family from France, then again please provide a proof; but I don't think any such law still existsMrglass123 (talk) 01:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Mrglass123

Name and title in infobox

I'm not a proponent of using infoboxes, because their intention is to simplify matters - and in this case, simplification isn't easy or helpful. Virtually everything about Louis Alphonse's name and title is complicated. Today User:Counter-revolutionary changed the infobox entry for English name to "Louis XX, King of France". Then User:Demophon reverted it to "Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou". Now is the time for discussion. Noel S McFerran (talk) 20:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The way I see it the infobox for a pretender, which this is, should refer to their title in pretence, in this case Louis XX. From what I've seen this is done in other articles, and really makes the most sense. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 20:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Please take another look at Template:Infobox_pretender (you have to click on "Edit" to see the whole thing). There is a field for "English name", and another for "Regnal name claimed". Then see how the template is used on the articles for Henri, comte de Paris, duc de France (Louis Alphonse's rival for France) and Alexander, Crown Prince of Yugoslavia. Noel S McFerran (talk) 14:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Title of the article

Discussion

I am totally at loss why a guy who lives in Spain and uses Spanish, and on the other hand, is pretender to monarchy (in which context English name forms are used, not local languages) has this article with French name Louis-Alphonse, Duc d'Anjou. I would expect to find him under Louis Alfonso, Duke of Anjou 217.140.193.123 16:23, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Or Luis-Alfonso? Morhange

This is English Wikipedia. As a French version is used of him, and a Spanish, we should choose neither of them, but use English. 217.140.193.123 08:49, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I will support this move (or Louis Alphonse). The present form is also incorrect French (duc should be lower-case; cf. the French WP article); but WP:UE makes clear that it should read Duke of Anjou anyway.Septentrionalis 16:14, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Oppose - Louis Alfonso is no more "English" than Louis-Alphonse, perhaps less so. The most English form would be Lewis Alphonzo, and that's clearly absurd. We should use Duke of Anjou, cf. List of Counts and Dukes of Anjou, WP:UE. It is most consistent with use elsewhere in WP to use non-English versions of royal names in circumstances like this one where the name is not particularly in use in English (cf. Alfonso, where numerous Alphonses, Affonsos, and Alfonsos are listed). This applies even more so to a name which is double. In addition, both Luis Alfonso and Louis-Alphonse are much more common in English than Louis Alfonso. Google gives 243 hits for "Louis-Alphonse"+ pretender -Wikipedia [2], 736 hits for "Luis Alfonso" + pretender -Wikipedia [3], and only 30 for "Louis Alfonso" + pretender -Wikipedia [4], many of which also contain Louis-Alphonse. The page should be either at Luis Alfonso, Duke of Anjou or Louis-Alphonse, Duke of Anjou, but not at this proposed combination name. This would be the equivalent of referring to Frederick Wilhelm III or Vittorio Emanuel! Satyadasa 14:27, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Still opposed, but to the idea that he should be listed under this name at all. He has no title, and to give him a title in the article name itself is not NPOV. His father was also called Duke of Anjou by legitimists, but we have him under his given name Alfonso de Borbón Dampierre. The most famous pretenders in the English-speaking world are under James Francis Edward Stuart, Charles Edward Stuart, and Henry Benedict Stuart, not James III, Charles III and Henry IX, not the Old Pretender, the Young Pretender, and Cardinal-Duke of York; we have Clemente Domínguez y Gómez for the sedevacantist antipope Pope Gregory XVII. Of course we should have a number of redirects, including from Louis-Alphonse, Duke of Anjou, etc., just as there is already one from Louis XX, his other non-title, but his name is Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez-Bordiú Satyadasa 09:18, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

This is a very interesting argument, which I will have to consider. I'm not sure I understand it fully. Noone supports moving this article to Louis XX, as far as I know; and we have Philippe, Comte de Paris and many other French titles used because of grants by extinguished dynasties. Are you arguing that they should be treated by surname too? Who is Duke of Anjou, if he is not? Septentrionalis 19:53, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, the Orléanist claimant seems to have given the title to his nephew. No one is the Duke of Anjou in the same way that someone once was the Duke of Anjou, because of course there is no French crown. Henri, Comte de Paris, Duc de France sued our subject here for using it, and lost, but not because French courts decided for the Orléanist point of view… the view seems to have been that the Fifth Republic has no jurisdiction over titles that haven't really existed since Louis-Philippe:
It is right in my opinion that all titles given only by a claimant (for example Charles Philippe d'Orléans, who got as said the Anjou title) should not be treated as "authorised" because there is obviously no french crown who could grant such titles. But titles given by a reigning monarch should be fully accepted here mainly in republics who accept noble titles as part of the name (like Germany, France..). So the title Duke of Anjou (see below) is an authorised title, because it was granted by Louis XIV for his grandchild Philip V of Spain ans has never ceased to exist (it has never merged with the french crown) and thus the eldest male descendent of Philip V (today Louis Alphonso of Bourbon, althoug it could be argued that Don Jaime disclaimed also that title and thus Juan Carlos I of Spain is Duke of Anjou, but I have never read that this was the case, he only disclaimed his rights on the spanish crown) has the right to legally hold this title. (Xerxes M.F. 27.8.2006)
L'irrecevabilité tiendrait dans cette optique à l'inexistence du titre de Duc d'Anjou. Les plaideurs se battraient pour rien. (The inadmissibility is accordingly due to the non-existence of the title Duke of Anjou. The litigants fight for nothing). [5].
Of course, this means that moves of a number of other pages would be in order, not because the French state says there are no titles, but because it's not NPOV to use the titles in the title of the page where there is controversy. No one else but Franz could claim to be Duke of Bavaria. Satyadasa 10:14, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
The second choice (in Satyadasa's original post) should be Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou; when French names are Englished, the hyphens are dropped. I would agree to that; I proposed Louis Alfonso because it appeared to be the most popular in the pre-existing discussion. WP:RM could be clearer. Septentrionalis 18:09, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
The hyphen should stay: Louis-Philippe of France, Louis-Antoine, Duke of Angoulême, Prince Ferdinand-Philippe of France. Create a disambiguation page for those who assume no hyphen. The hyphen will not confuse anyone, and it is used in English, for contemporary Francophones: Jean Michel Jarre, those with French-derived names: Jean-Michel Basquiat, and even in English names: Mary-Kate Olsen. The hyphen is English, and the article should be Louis-Alphonse, Duke of Anjou Satyadasa 02:14, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Support but I prefer a redirect from the old one still. Louis-Alphonse is named thus because he is the pretender to the French throne by the Legitimists and Anjou is in France. He is not Spanish because he had been denied his right to the Spanish throne by his grandfather. English, though, would make the most sense since this is and English encyclopedia. His titles can be displayed after his English name. My final conclusion is that Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou is the most logical and most in line with other similar French names.
--Whaleyland 03:17, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Consensus

There are four questions here, and seven editors:

  1. First Name
    • One suggestion of Luis, otherwise Louis.
  2. Hyphen
    • Two for, four against
  3. Second name
    • Two for Alfonso; otherwise Alphonse. I would tolerate Alfonso if it made consensus; but I don't prefer it, and Satyadasa's argument of consistency should be considered.
  4. Title
    • Four for Duke of Anjou, one for no title, one for Duc d'Anjou [sic].

Is Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou consensus out of all this?

Note: the question is not, "is that right?"; this is, "would you, as a neutral closer, close that way?"

    • LOUIS ALFONSO He was named Louis after the French Kings, and Alfonso after Alfonso XIII, King of Spain. Since they are usually called Louis and Alfonso in English, that is what he should be called. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.87.248.162 (talk) 21:41, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Discision

Page moved. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 01:25, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Fundamental Law of Succession to the French Throne

Ever since the establishment of Salic Law in France, the right of succession to the French throne was held to be an inalienable right of every male-line descendant of Hugh Capet. To date, all Kings of France were Senior Capets - Heads of the Capetian Dynasty. (Note that the Bonapartes were emperors, while the only king from the House of Orleans is a King of the French, not King of France). During his lifetime, King Louis XIV, the most powerful of the absolute monarchs of France, tried several times to change the line of succession to the French throne, without any success. This same right is held today by Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou. Emerson 07 (talk) 13:23, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by CFlemming (talk • contribs) 20:18, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

It has not been settled and can never be settled whether Philip V's renunciation was valid or not, because by the time the question came up (1883), the Kingdom of France no longer existed and there were no authorities competent to determine who the rightful king was. john k (talk) 22:24, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
There was really no authority in France that could change or modify the succession to the French throne. As in almost every European monarchy, even the King of France does not have the power to alter the line of succession. In the United Kingdom, the power to alter the line of succession has been given to the Parliament. Equivalent bodies in France did nothing to regulate or had no power to regulate the line of succession to the throne. French statesmen were very clever on dealing with foreign powers who attempted to regulate the succession to the Kingdom of France. The renunciation of Philip V of Spain of his rights of his succession to France was conditional: it would only be valid if Spain would adopt Salic Law, with the intention of keeping Spain under the House of Bourbon as long as his male-line descendants would last. After Spain abandoned Salic Law (paving the way for the succession of Queen Isabella II), any validity of the renunciation of Philip V would be nullified.Emerson 07 (talk) 12:15, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
If you want to read more about this, try this link: http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/bourbon/france/frenlegt.htm Emerson 07 (talk) 12:20, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

True pretender?

Is there any evidence that this man claims the throne of France, or that his supporters so acknowledge him? As it stands the article seems to assume it, though there is no evidence to cite such a claim. His website styles him 'Prince Louis' and 'Chef de la Maison', which is not the same as claiming the title King or Dauphin.Gazzster (talk) 23:16, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

It is the same thing though. The belief is that the Head of the House of France and the King of France are always one and the same. If he is claiming to be Head of the House of France then he believes himself to be rightful King of France and of Navarre. Most pretenders do not assume the reigning title but rather assume a lower one. Like HIH the Grand Duchess of Russia rather than HIM the Empress of Russia or HI&RH the Prince of Prussia rather than HI&RM The German Emperor and King of Prussia. Seven Letters 23:55, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Not necessarily. A former royal house can be a private family without claiming any crown. George Friedrich Hohenzollern, for example, has declared he is not seeking a political role. Likewise Otto von Habsburg has denied he is seeking the former crowns of Hungary or Austria. The Jacobite heir in Bavaria denies he seeks the crowns of Scotland England. Gazzster (talk) 05:47, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
The vast majority of pretenders aren't actively seeking the throne, but they still generally assert themselves as "head of the family" or what not. BTW, there's no such person as "Georg Friedrich Hohenzollern". His name is "Georg Friedrich Prinz von Preußen". john k (talk) 15:23, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
If he is not pretending to the French throne, then why did he bestow the titles Duke of Burgundy and Duke of Berry to his twin sons? Or did someone else just add those titles? Emerson 07 (talk) 12:19, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
The lead of the article describes him as 'a claimant to the throne'. However, there is no reference cited to support this. I have no idea why he calls his sons Duke of Burgundy and Duke of Berry. You could do the same for your own sons if you want. I could name my brother Grand Duke of Wurttemburg. The lead says he is a claimant to the defunct throne of France. Where is the evidence for this?Gazzster (talk) 12:09, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Well, if he took the liberty of giving ducal titles to his sons, then he must be claiming the royal prerogatives of his ancestors, those prerogatives which belong to a King. Even if I name my sons dukes or you name your brother grand duke, nobody would really recognize them as such, as we have no authority to do that. A claimant may be a claimant per se, or he was just being seen as a claimant by his supporters, as the Heir Male of Louis XIV. Emerson 07 (talk) 12:19, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
If he names his son by virtue of being King of France, he would call himself King of France. But he doesn't. I repeat, the lead says he is a claimant to the defunct throne of France. There is not one scrap of evidence that he (or a significant number of his supporters on his behalf) makes that claim . To assume that because he styles his sons as Kings of France used to do is OR. It is an interpretation. If someone can reasonably cite something to uphold the assertion, I'll shut up. Gazzster (talk) 21:57, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia doesn't determine whether or not a man is a claimant to the throne of France (or anything else). It merely summarizes what has been written in other places (books, articles, websites). There are many many sources which describe Louis as "claimant to the throne of France". Therefore, it is appropriate for Wikipedia to summarize those sources. Noel S McFerran (talk) 11:51, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
And yet it does make that claim for this person. Read the lead. It states Louis is 'a claimant to the throne'! It may indeed summarize 'what has been written in other places'. But there are no references even for this. It is not sufficient to 'summarize' the 'many sources' without citing those sources. I'm simply pointing out that there are no references to support the claim in the lead that Louis 'is a claimant' (which implies that he, not only his supporters) make the claim, or that a notable number of his supporters make the claim on his behalf. It's not unreasonable. In fact, it's editorial policy and just plain professional conduct. It's no skin of my nose if he claims to be Grand Poobah of the Outer Hebrides. We just need to see supporting references.Gazzster (talk) 00:39, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
You are utilizing an ahistoricallly narrow definition of "claimant". Almost none of the people listed at Pretender makes a personal claim to the throne of their ancestors, because the tradition of abolished monarchies is that such claims are asserted on their behalf and under titles other than the one by which they would reign if enthroned (unless the throne was ducal or princely, in which case the "claimant" often does bear the former monarchical title, since "Prince" and "Duke" do not, ipso facto suggest a claim to exercise current sovereignty). Thus, you will find no document or statement in which the comte de Chambord described himself either as "King of France" or as "claimant/pretender" thereto, yet no one disputes that he was the claimant par excellence to France's defunct throne all his life. Nor is Wikipedia exclusively concerned with how a person defines or describes him/herself (which might be POV), but relies upon how most reputable sources name and refer to that person. Alphonse de Bourbon is widely regarded as the legitimist claimant to the throne of France, by which is meant that he and most others who have occasion to refer to him consider him the most rightful heir to his ancestors' dynastic legacy according to some legal, historical or cultural calculus embraced by those who adhere thereto (French legitimists, e.g. the Institute of the House of Bourbon) and attested to by reputable publications which track such matters. By the way, neither the Orléanist nor Bonaparte claimants assert any current right to occupy the throne of France -- but merely affirms that each is the rightful heir to his ancestor's legacy. Indeed Prince Charles Napoléon is a self-avowed republican, but has nonetheless publicly disputed for years his late father's attempt to expel him from the Line of succession to the French throne (Napoleonic); see his direct comments and you'll find that his rationale exactly corresponds to Wikipedia's attribution of "claimant" to him and to others similarly situated. FactStraight (talk) 19:52, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
FactStraight, en toute sympathie, I must disagree with you when you write: "you will find no document or statement in which the comte de Chambord described himself either as "King of France" or as "claimant/pretender"...". The plaque known as the "déclaration du drapeau blanc" (5 July 1871)[7] at the château de Chambord states differently:
on line 7 of the text you can read:
  • CES DEVOIRS, JE LES REMPLIRAI, CROYEZ EN MA PAROLE D'HONNÊTE HOMME ET DE ROI.
last line:
  • HENRI V NE PEUT ABANDONNER LE DRAPEAU BLANC D'HENRI IV.
--Frania W. (talk) 21:34, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm familiar with Chambord's "white flag" declaration, and I understand it to be an assertion of how he would behave if he were to be crowned as Henri V, rather than as a proclamation from the throne of his imagination (after all, the intended audience was the National Assembly of the French Third Republic, whom he hoped to persuade to give him the crown, although he felt obliged by honour to clarify the terms on which he would accept it). FactStraight (talk) 01:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
"...the National Assembly of the French Third Republic, whom he hoped to persuade to give him the crown, " ? It was the National Assembly who was offering him the crown! --Frania W. (talk) 03:32, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

[out-denting] No. On 4 September 1870, with Napoleon III having surrendered and France rapidly coming under German occupation, Chambord publicly petitioned the French people from abroad to restore him to the throne so that he could deliver them from the German yoke! But by referring to himself as king and repudiating the tricolour on 5 July 1871, he prevented the National Assembly's acceptance of his offer. I thought he learned his lesson and avoided ever again calling himself a king, sticking to comte de Chambord. The NA wanted to offer Chambord the throne, but refrained until he would first accept the tricolour as symbol of the Revolution's success in repudiating the absolutism of the ancien regime and its divine right principle. Chambord undoubtedly wanted the crown of France, but it was theirs to give, not his to take. His refusal to accept that fact has left him a pretender rather than a king in the eyes of history -- though an honourable one. No matter that legitimist Bourbons, French and Spanish, could neither learn nor forget, there have been plenty of other countly claimants in exile who knew better than to call themselves by a sovereign title they hoped would be granted them, e.g., the comte de Paris (Orleanist France), the comtesse d'Eu (Brazil), the Count of Caserta (Two Sicilies), and the Count of Barcelona (Spain), whose son today reigns as king -- and that's the relevant point. FactStraight (talk) 07:17, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

From the Assemblée nationale de France site:
  • En raison de la persistance du comte de Chambord à vouloir renoncer au drapeau tricolore au profit d'un retour au drapeau blanc, il faut dans l'attente d'une solution élire un nouveau Président de la République.
  • Décidé à s'effacer devant le roi si le trône était rétabli, le maréchal Mac-Mahon est aussitôt élu, ce 24 mai 1873, Président de la République par 390 voix sur 721 présents. Mais le comte de Chambord fait échouer la restauration de la royauté en faisant publier le 30 octobre dans le journal monarchiste l'Union une déclaration intransigeante : « Je veux rester tout entier ce que je suis. »
--Frania W. (talk) 16:37, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
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