Talk:Living in the Material World (song)

changes in ref formatting style

Hey everyone. Mea culpa – a note to explain that I'm intending to change the style of cite formatting here.

Before I started expanding the article in September, this was the most recent user edit, which shows that ref templates were used throughout – that is, the article followed Harvard-style citation, as there is no template that allows for an alternative style. I won't lie: I admit I'm no fan of Harvard. But the main reason I'm wanting to change the format now is that I can't figure out how to correctly present the cites containing links to Rock's Backpages. By "correctly" I mean that, while mention of a sourced article being available on RBP is needed, together with the fact that access is dependent on paying a subscription, wording in a cite such as 'Anne Moore, "George Harrison On Tour – Press Conference Q&A", Valley Advocate, 13 November 1974' is quite sufficient as a reliable source in its own right, surely; yet the parameters of the ref template appear to restrict whether those print details can stand alone, separate from a secondary point regarding availability online. So what I'm concerned about is that, should the article(s) no longer appear on RBP sometime in the future, and if print and online details are not clearly separated, editors might remove the citation entirely and with it, the point being made in the song article. (It happens!)

I'm raising the issue here with what I concede might be an almost "after-the-event" tone/message. At the same time, I guess I'm hoping that it's clear how much I've expanded the article from September to its current form. In other words, the work I've done is not just doubling what was there originally, it's more like tenfold – and from my point of view, it's so much easier to bring over cite details from other articles I've expanded (containing non-Harvard refs) by simply pasting them in each time, rather than having to negotiate a cite template. The proof of the degree of expansion is in the amount of cites to magazine or online pieces where items are separated by commas instead of ref temp/Harvard full stops. (Only individual cites to the Allmusic, Rolling Stone and PopMatters reviews are set in the ref template style currently, since they were the only reviews included back in September.) So I admit that this is not just about the RBP situation.

Happy to discuss, even if – in the interests of making style consistent throughout, in preparation for taking the article to GAN – I now get started on removing the templates. Any thoughts or objections, anyone? JG66 (talk) 03:47, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Living in the Material World (song)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Seabuckthorn (talk · contribs) 16:00, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Nominator: JG66 (talk)

Hi! My review for this article will be here shortly. --Seabuckthorn ♥ 16:00, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

1: Well-written

• a. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:
• b. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

WP:LEAD:

Check for WP:LEAD: Check for Correct Structure of Lead Section:  Done Check for Citations (WP:LEADCITE):  Done Check for Introductory text:  Done Check for Provide an accessible overview (MOS:INTRO):  Done Major Point 1: Background "" (not a concise summary of the corresponding section in the body) Major Point 2: Composition "In the song's lyrics, Harrison presents a contrast between the world of material things and his spiritual goals, and the conflicting themes are represented in the musical arrangement, via juxtaposing sections in the rock genre and an Indian music setting.", "The song addresses the need to escape the constant cycle of reincarnation and so attain moksha in the Hindu faith." & "Harrison references his Beatles past as one of the trappings of the material world and refers by name to former bandmates John Lennon, Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr. The latter played drums on the recording, while the other contributing musicians include Jim Horn, Gary Wright and Jim Keltner." (summarised well in the lead) Major Point 3: Production (not a concise summary of the corresponding section in the body) Major Point 3.1: Initial recording "In a production that is highly regarded by some commentators, the rock portions of "Living in the Material World" include a slide guitar solo by Harrison, saxophone, two drummers and prominent Hammond organ, whereas the meditative Indian interludes feature Zakir Hussain on tabla and a rare post-Beatle sitar performance by Harrison." (summarised well in the lead) Major Point 3.2: Overdubbing "" (not a concise summary of the corresponding section in the body) Major Point 4: Release and album artwork "The contrasts presented in "Living in the Material World" inspired both a photograph by Ken Marcus that appeared inside the album's gatefold cover and designer Tom Wilkes's incorporation of Krishna-related symbolism elsewhere in the packaging." & "In addition to providing the title for the Living in the Material World album, the song inspired Harrison's choice for a name for his charity, the Material World Charitable Foundation, to which he donated his publishing royalties from the composition." (summarised well in the lead) Major Point 5: Reception "" (not a concise summary of the corresponding section in the body) Major Point 6: Subsequent releases and legacy "Film-maker Martin Scorsese also used the title for that of his 2011 documentary on the life of George Harrison." (not a concise summary of the corresponding section in the body) Check for Relative emphasis:  Done Major Point 1: Background "" (the lead does not give due weight as is given in the body) Major Point 2: Composition "In the song's lyrics, Harrison presents a contrast between the world of material things and his spiritual goals, and the conflicting themes are represented in the musical arrangement, via juxtaposing sections in the rock genre and an Indian music setting.", "The song addresses the need to escape the constant cycle of reincarnation and so attain moksha in the Hindu faith." & "Harrison references his Beatles past as one of the trappings of the material world and refers by name to former bandmates John Lennon, Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr. The latter played drums on the recording, while the other contributing musicians include Jim Horn, Gary Wright and Jim Keltner." (the lead gives due weight as is given in the body) Major Point 3: Production (the lead does not give due weight as is given in the body) Major Point 3.1: Initial recording "In a production that is highly regarded by some commentators, the rock portions of "Living in the Material World" include a slide guitar solo by Harrison, saxophone, two drummers and prominent Hammond organ, whereas the meditative Indian interludes feature Zakir Hussain on tabla and a rare post-Beatle sitar performance by Harrison." (the lead gives due weight as is given in the body) Major Point 3.2: Overdubbing "" (the lead does not give due weight as is given in the body) Major Point 4: Release and album artwork "The contrasts presented in "Living in the Material World" inspired both a photograph by Ken Marcus that appeared inside the album's gatefold cover and designer Tom Wilkes's incorporation of Krishna-related symbolism elsewhere in the packaging." & "In addition to providing the title for the Living in the Material World album, the song inspired Harrison's choice for a name for his charity, the Material World Charitable Foundation, to which he donated his publishing royalties from the composition." (the lead gives due weight as is given in the body) Major Point 5: Reception "" (the lead does not give due weight as is given in the body) Major Point 6: Subsequent releases and legacy "Film-maker Martin Scorsese also used the title for that of his 2011 documentary on the life of George Harrison." (the lead does not give due weight as is given in the body) Check for Opening paragraph (MOS:BEGIN):  Done Check for First sentence (WP:LEADSENTENCE):  Done Check for Format of the first sentence (MOS:BOLDTITLE):  Done Check for Proper names and titles:  Done Check for Abbreviations and synonyms (MOS:BOLDSYN): None Check for Foreign language (MOS:FORLANG): None Check for Pronunciation: None Check for Contextual links (MOS:CONTEXTLINK):  Done Check for Biographies: NA Check for Organisms: NA Check for Biographies of living persons: NA Check for Alternative names (MOS:LEADALT):  Done Check for Non-English titles: Check for Usage in first sentence: Check for Separate section usage: Check for Length (WP:LEADLENGTH):  Done Check for Clutter (WP:LEADCLUTTER): None

WP:LAYOUT:

Done Check for WP:LAYOUT:  Done Check for Body sections: WP:BODY, MOS:BODY.  Done Check for Headings and sections:  Done Check for Section templates and summary style:  Done Check for Paragraphs (MOS:PARAGRAPHS):  Done Check for Standard appendices and footers (MOS:APPENDIX):  Done Check for Order of sections (WP:ORDER):  Done Check for Works or publications:  Done Check for See also section (MOS:SEEALSO):  Done Check for Notes and references (WP:FNNR):  Done Check for Further reading (WP:FURTHER):  Done Check for External links (WP:LAYOUTEL):  Done Check for Links to sister projects:  Done Check for Navigation templates:  Done Check for Formatting:  Done Check for Images (WP:LAYIM):  Done Check for Links:  Done Check for Horizontal rule (WP:LINE):  Done

WP:WTW:

Done Check for WP:WTW:  Done Check for Words that may introduce bias:  Done Check for Puffery (WP:PEA):  Done Check for Contentious labels (WP:LABEL):  Done Check for Unsupported attributions (WP:WEASEL):  Done Check for Expressions of doubt (WP:ALLEGED):  Done Check for Editorializing (MOS:OPED):  Done Check for Synonyms for said (WP:SAY):  Done Check for Expressions that lack precision:  Done Check for Euphemisms (WP:EUPHEMISM):  Done Check for Clichés and idioms (WP:IDIOM):  Done Check for Relative time references (WP:REALTIME):  Done Check for Neologisms (WP:PEA): None Check for Offensive material (WP:F***):  Done Check for WP:MOSFICT:  Done Check for Real-world perspective (WP:Real world):  Done Check for Primary and secondary information (WP:PASI):  Done Check for Contextual presentation (MOS:PLOT):  Done

WP:EMBED:
None Prose is preferred over list (WP:PROSE): Check for Tables (MOS:TABLES):

2: Verifiable with no original research

• a. Has an appropriate reference section: Yes
• b. Citation to reliable sources where necessary: excellent (Thorough check on Google.)

WP:RS:

Done Check for WP:RS:  Done Check for the material (WP:RSVETTING): (not contentious)  Done Is it contentious?: No Does the ref indeed support the material?: Check for the author (WP:RSVETTING):  Done Who is the author?: Does the author have a Wikipedia article?: What are the author's academic credentials and professional experience?: What else has the author published?: Is the author, or this work, cited in other reliable sources? In academic works?: Check for the publication (WP:RSVETTING):  Done Check for Self-published sources (WP:SPS):

WP:MINREF:
Done Check for inline citations WP:MINREF:  Done Check for Direct quotations:  Done Check for Likely to be challenged:  Done Check for Contentious material about living persons (WP:BLP): NA

• c. No original research:  Done

WP:NOR:
Done Check for primary sources (WP:PRIMARY):  Done Check for synthesis (WP:SYN):  Done Check for original images (WP:OI):  Done

3: Broad in its coverage

a. Major aspects:

Done Check for Article scope as defined by reliable sources: Check for The extent of the subject matter in these RS: Check for Out of scope: Check for The range of material that belongs in the article: Check for All material that is notable is covered: Check for All material that is referenced is covered: Check for All material that a reader would be likely to agree matches the specified scope is covered: Check for The most general scope that summarises essentially all knowledge: Check for Stay on topic and no wandering off-topic (WP:OFFTOPIC):

b. Focused:
Done Check for Readability issues (WP:LENGTH): Check for Article size (WP:TOO LONG!):

4: Neutral

WP:NPOV:

Done 4. Fair representation without bias:  Done Check for POV (WP:YESPOV):  Done Check for naming (WP:POVNAMING):  Done Check for structure (WP:STRUCTURE):  Done Check for Due and undue weight (WP:DUE):  Done Check for Balancing aspects (WP:BALASPS):  Done Check for Giving "equal validity" (WP:VALID):  Done Check for Balance (WP:YESPOV):  Done Check for Impartial tone (WP:IMPARTIAL):  Done Check for Describing aesthetic opinions (WP:SUBJECTIVE):  Done Check for Words to watch (WP:YESPOV):  Done Check for Attributing and specifying biased statements (WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV):  Done Check for Fringe theories and pseudoscience (WP:PSCI): None Check for Religion (WP:RNPOV): None

5: Stable: No edit wars, etc: Yes

6: Images  Done (NFC with a valid FUR) & (Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license)

Images:

Done 6: Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:  Done Check for copyright tags (WP:TAGS):  Done Check for copyright status:  Done Check for non-free content (WP:NFC):  Done Check for valid fair use rationales (WP:FUR):  Done 6: Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:  Done Check for image relevance (WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE):  Done Check for Images for the lead (WP:LEADIMAGE):  Done Check for suitable captions (WP:CAPTION):  Done

I'm glad to see your work here. I do have some insights based on the above checklist that I think will improve the article:

• I think the lead can be improved in order to provide an accessible overview and to give relative emphasis.

Besides that, I think the article looks excellent. You've done great work, and I am quite happy to assist you in improving it. All the best, --Seabuckthorn ♥ 09:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Hey Seabuckthorn, thanks for your compliments, you're really very generous. Made quite a few additions to the lead, to address the issues you raised. And you're quite right – the lead definitely needed more. But I'm slightly surprised that you include the Overdubbing subsection in with the other problem areas. There does seem quite a bit from that, spread throughout the lead, no? (Although, I admit a "concise summary" has not been achieved – but that would be hard to do, I suggest.) Anyway, see what you think now ... Best, JG66 (talk) 16:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks You're right. I misjudged the Overdubbing subsection. Apologies. --Seabuckthorn ♥ 19:18, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Promoting the article to GA status. --Seabuckthorn ♥ 19:18, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm really pleased to get this one through, Seabuckthorn, because it's such a major statement within George Harrison's work. (I don't mind admitting I had to get a bit of an education first on the subject of reincarnation, before starting on the article.) Thanks so much for your help! JG66 (talk) 22:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

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• His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.jpg

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