Talk:List of medieval universities

University of Santiago de Compostela

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/University_of_Santiago_de_Compostela USC was found in 1495. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gasparoff (talk • contribs) 14:13, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Lacking university

What about University of Poiters? https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/University_of_Poitiers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ponewor (talk • contribs) 12:35, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Problems of this list

I think this list make sense, because the list of oldest universities in continuous operation only lists universities that not only existed in the middle ages, but have a track record of continuity until today. But the list is very strange:

• actually there are two lists, one per date another per country, this is easy to sort out, we need to move that to a sortable table,
• the criteria of inclusion is university crated until 1600 whereas the latest end date for Middle ages that I know of is 1516,
• there are no sources, but apparently the first institution listed is the oldest according to the Guinness book, is that compliant with our source policy?

Any advice? Feel free to carry out any necessary actions. --Anneyh (talk) 19:22, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorted by "date of recognition"?

What is the "date of recognition"? Papal bull? Since this is the means of sorting, it certainly should be expressly defined.

It's a slightly different point -- since this list can sort by any indicia it wants -- but for what it's worth, I've been involved in discussions in the WikiProject Universities where the consensus was that individual university pages should give the date of establishment that the universities themselves claim, which was certainly not my preference. (As an example, the University of Kansas claims the founding date of 1865 even though nothing happened that year -- it was chartered in 1864 and opened in 1866.) Wikipedia makes my head hurt. -Kgwo1972 (talk) 14:37, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, recognition of medieval universities was usually done either by papal bull (or papal breve) or royal privilege or by other princes. I have made this explicit in some lists (1) but not all yet. Give me a couple of weeks time, I am currently preparing a list which contains these specifics for universities founded up to 1800. We could link then "date of recognition" either to this list or, alternatively, to some section at medieval university.

As for these discussions...yes, there are sometimes slight discrepancies in the dates because different people prefer different criteria. To the above could be added the actual beginning of courses which was sometimes years, even decades after the privilege or bull was granted. The good thing is that with "A History of the University of Europe" we now have an authoritative four-volume scholarly work which, although it should not be understood as the final word on these matters and does not view itself as such, will set the standard for years to come. In the end, I have no problem with these differing dates as long as they are all cited properly from solid references as I know them to be depending on different criteria. At the current state of research, there seems to be no point in forcing a single view at the expense of others. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 17:19, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Temple of Literature, Hanoi?

The Temple of Literature (http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Temple_of_Literature,_Hanoi) was founded in 1070, the first university of Vietnam. It is currently inactive and has become a tourism site. It should be also included in this list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadaxu (talk • contribs) 20:59, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

University of Zadar?

The Wikipedia page for Zadar and the website of the University of Zadar both say that a university in Zadar, Croatia was founded in 1396. I think that it was also included on this list before, but it is now gone. Why is this so? Was it something more along the lines of an academy without university status, or...? Also, this list used to include a university in Visoko, Bosnia, but that is also not included on this list anymore. If someone could point me to sources that explain in more detail the nature and status of these centres of higher learning, that would be helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.188.144.136 (talk) 10:57, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Definition paragraph?

That "Definition" paragraph is misleading and irrelevant. It is a bombastic piece by an interested official organization of modern universities, and says practically nothing elucidating about the definition of Medieval universities, and several whoppers (e.g. very few Medieval universities had four faculties). Why is it included here? Surely it is easy to find something better written.Walrasiad (talk) 15:43, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, I wrote up a new definition paragraph, which is reflective of the content of the page. I am not sure if it is to everybody's taste. But since the list is composed only of Studium Generale, I replicated much of the definition criteria from the Studium Generale page. Should the list be widened at any point, to include non-Studium Generale schools, or schools outside of Latin Europe (e.g. Byzantine or Islamic), then this section will need to be ammended. But for the moment, it reflects the list contained in it. Hopefully, the precision of the definition will help guide questions about inclusion and exclusion. Walrasiad (talk) 01:20, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Suggested page move

Recently, there have been several edits to include non-European "universities", therefore I suggest to include "Europe" in the page name. Personally, I found the added information interesting and valuable in itself, but it was quite clearly in the wrong place as the article only concerns early European universities (cf. Introduction and Definition), so I removed these additions. I would hope, the move would make the limited scope of the article more obvious. What seems to be missing is a global List of ancient higher-learning institutions, though the relevant content could probably be extracted from Ancient higher-learning institutions. -- Macumba (talk) 23:46, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

This list can and should adress 'only' European universities in the very same sense that a list of churches can and should only deal with Christian places of worships: because a university is per definitionem a European institution (at least until adopted elsewhere much later). Other cultures also had centres of higher learning cultures but they were dissimilar and go by other names. Gun Powder Ma (talk)

Hm. No, not really. Well, depends on your definition of "university". I inserted the description deliberately to make it clear the criteria of inclusion, i.e. that it referred only to institutions classified as Studium Generale, a label applied to some schools of higher learning in Latin Europe. There are great variety of them, with different origins, structures and evolutions, some resembling other types of schools and other localities more closely than each other. Whether these are even "universities" can be called into question for many of them. Walrasiad (talk) 07:38, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Not every medieval university was a studium generale, only the largest and most prestigious were. I know someone rewrote the definition to this extent, arguing for a simple equation medieval university = studium generale, but this is not historically correct. Consult, e.g., Rüegg 1992 for this. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 10:02, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Er, no. All schools on this list are studium generale. I wrote that definition. It is the standard definition as found in the scholarly literature on Medieval universities (e.g. Rashdhall, Verger, etc.). It is, of course, not beyond dispute, and I make note of its drawbacks. But that is what is contained in this list. It is this definition that separates "universities" from other Medieval schools of higher learning (cathedral schools, monastic schools, law schools, etc.), and of course, separates it from schools of higher learning outside of Latin Europe (e.g. in the Byzantine and Islamic worlds). I am not sure what your citation of "Ruegg 1992" means. You mean the collection of History of Universities in Europe? Ruegg is a general editor. The specialized article on Medieval universities in that collection was written by Jacques Verger, who uses the studium generale definition, as I gave it (with the same hemming & hawing), so I am not sure what you mean. But now that we're on Ruegg, do note that Ruegg in his own article in that volume does acknowledge the resemblance between Latin and Islamic institutions, e.g. the organization of foreign students into nations, the universal validity of a degree for teaching, the academic robe, the title of "baccalarius", etc. Although he doubts the European university as a whole was derived from Islamic models, he notes it is "plausible" that the organization of constituent colleges might have been. So I am not sure why you assume this is so cut-and-dried. The "studium generale" definition is what circumscribes this list. If you dispute that definition (and there are grounds to dispute it), then the list needs to be opened up to many more institutions, both inside and outside of Latin Europe. Walrasiad (talk) 17:38, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

University of Paris?

Why it is not the University of Paris (recognized in the mid-XIII century) in the list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.202.54.112 (talk) 22:25, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree — University of Paris (1150–1793, 1896–1970) The list might have been compiled in the 100 years it was offline :-) cmɢʟee୯ ͡° ̮د ͡° ੭ 19:43, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Evidently, the editor who overrode the old list simply and erroneously inserted the dubious "continuous operation" list on top of this one. It is missing most of the major medieval universities that happen to now be defunct or interrupted or no longer intact today. Besides the egregious omission of Paris, it is also missing the Medieval universities of Salerno, Modena, Reggio, Vicenza, Palencia, Arezzo, Vercelli, Angers, Orleans, Curia Romana, Piacenza, Seville, Avignon, Treviso, Cahors, Grenoble, Perpignan, Huesca, Orange, Cologne, Buda, Erfurt, Aix, Dole, Louvain, Poitiers, Caen, Trier, Ingolstadt, Mainz, Wittenberg, Frankfurt-am-Oder, etc. It misdates several (e.g. Montpellier) and inserts some fake ones (Northampton, Murcia, Macerata, Venice, etc.). In its current state, this list is rather worthless. Walrasiad (talk) 23:14, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I am also tempted to restore the old list for the same reason. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 00:51, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I absolutely do agree! We need to restore the before mentioned universities with some interruption in their line of operation. Psocopterus (talk) 10:10, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

University of Salerno

In my humble opinion this list is missing one of the oldest continuously functioning centres of medical knowledge, Salerno. It was recognised as a centre of learning and application of the medical 'sciences' way back as far as Roman times (actually in Velia in those times), and never actually lost its reputation nor its function. It could truly be called the only 'University' that survived the Dark Ages and sprang into prominence again in the early Middle Ages, way before the other 'Universities' were even founded. The whole concept of higher learning was actually being practiced there, whether a nobleman or king had recognised this or not. As I said, IMHO you are doing yourselves a disservice in not recognising the historical importance, continuity and value of Salerno by leaving it off this list.

Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.147.61 (talk) 12:30, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Not sure who why Salerno is excluded. It definitely should be there and should top the list. It was the first degree-granting institution of higher learning, and the first to be referred to as a Studium generale, even if it only expanded to other faculties in the late Middle Ages and was suppressed in 1811. But like I said before, the list in its current state is pretty crappy and very misleading. It needs to be completely overhauled. There are many, many omissions and many false inclusions. Walrasiad (talk) 13:54, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Salerno University is excluded (as also Bank of Naples is, in the list of banks) because it lyes in 'proper' Italy (southern Italy); this exclusion is part of the huge cultural colonisation and identity annihilation which proper Italy suffers from both the central Government and northern Italy (basically Padania area - since Venetian, Friulian and Alps regions are quite independentist) since 1861. I have been volunteer for several cultural/artistic NGOs and I am a teacher of Italian language for foreign people: I face this denigration in daily life, almost everywhere, at the market, at the Municipality office, on the university-students books. Travelling in some 55 countries in the world I notice cultural colonialism and appropriation of the original local identity by the colonisers is spread and common in the world but this still makes me upset. AlexanderFreud (talk) 13:39, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

A lot of universities are missing. F.ex. Leuven or Louvain from 1425.

Another extremely significant university that is missing is Cologne University, founded 1388. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.163.245 (talk) 14:18, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Incomplete list — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.52.91.14 (talk) 08:17, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Macerata wasn't a University until XVI century (in the XIII there was attested only a legal school) and also this list misses Parma University, whose foundation is 'ab immemorabilis' since an imperial bull of the X century creates a legal school--79.54.90.240 (talk) 13:13, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Agree on Macerata. Ambivalent on Parma. Parma's status is frequently disputed, because it not clear it was recognized as a Studium Generale in this time frame. Parma's law school is indeed very old, and its law and arts schools were consolidated with written statutes by 1294. It applied for SG status in 1412, but it didn't have a charter (which was essential by this time). Now, lack of charter is not by itself the killer - Oxford also didn't have a charter - but at least Oxford was commonly referred to as a SG "by custom", whereas it is less clear if Parma was too. Parma claimed that status, but it was not recognized as such by others, and as a result many scholars (e.g. Rashdall) omit it from lists of Medieval universities as it did not have clear SG status until the 1512 bull of Pope Julius II. My preference is to include Parma, but with a "disputed" asterisk and note on the ambiguity. Certainly much more comfortable including Parma than Macerata. Walrasiad (talk) 14:19, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Paris

Excluding from this list the university of Paris, one of the most influential higher education institutions of the Middle Ages, is just ridiculous. I propose this note :

2

c. 1150 (1200)

University of Paris

Kingdom of France

Paris

Teaching existed since the 10th century in the Cathedral School of Notre-Dame. Students and Master formed a community (universitas) in the middle 12th century. The community was granted extensive privileges in 1200 by King Philip, then by Pope Innocent III in 1215 and Pope Gregory IX in 1231.

90.16.170.216 (talk) 15:48, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Bologna University seems not to have been founded in 1088

In A History of the University in Europe: Volume 1, Universities in the Middle Ages ed. Hilde de Ridder-Symoens, (Cambridge, 1992), p. 4, Walter Rüegg says that the supposed founding date of 1088 has no historical basis at all. The date was in fact chosen as a 'conventional date' in 1888 by a jubilee committee chaired by Giosuè Carducci, and there is no published reliable historical research which confirms the date. On the contrary (see ibid, p. 4 note 6), a number of reliable historians confirm that no such event took place in 1088, including H. Rashdall, The Universities of Europe in the Middle Ages, Vol. 1, (Oxford, 1895) pp. 118-9; H. Grundmann, Vom Ursprung der Universität im Mittelalter (Darmstadt 1957, 2nd ed. 1960), p.40: and even Sorbelli, Storia della Università di Bologna Vol. 1 (Bologna 1940) (written for the university's '850th birthday') does not mention the date. MinorProphet (talk) 12:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

University of Erfurt

The papal bull of 1379 was issued by antipope Clemens in Avignon. Actual teaching started just after a second bull issued by Urban in Rome from 1389. So, although there is a creation document from 1379, this doesn't seem to be the one, whereupon the Universities operation was based. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:88:6950:D400:4945:6030:9E9C:6577 (talk) 23:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

University of Al Quaraouiyine

This university was founded before the university of bologna (2-3 century before), The UNESCO and Guiness world record recognize that! so why i didn't find it on the top of the list?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bekkari (talk • contribs) 22:05, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

This is explained in the article. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 10:12, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Jonathan A Jones refer to this line statement:
The list of medieval universities comprises universities (more precisely, Studium Generale) which existed in Europe during the Middle Ages --Thatonewikiguy (talk) 09:57, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Title Change

I guess we can tell from the discussion that this article is very biased and eurocentric. I'm all for having a separate article on universities in Medieval Europe, but it's not sufficient to add an intro paragraph to explain what you subjectively mean by "medieval universities" if the title remains unrepresentative to the content. It is misleading. 1) There were universities in Medieval times outside of Europe and before the oldest European university. 2) Medieval is not a term used exclusively for Europe (examples 1, 2, 3, 4). Therefore I suggest changing the title to "List of medieval universities in Europe". --Crazyketchupguy (talk) 02:47, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately you are confusing ancient higher-learning institutions with universities; this article follows the distinctions made and documented in those two articles. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 08:32, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm sympathetic. However, this list is even narrower than you imagine. It does not cover "Europe" - e.g. Byzantine schools of Eastern Europe are excluded. Nor does it cover other schools in Latin Europe. It covers only Studium Generale. However the term "Studium Generale" is a technical term. Since SG is synonymous with "Medieval University" in common usage, that is the term elected in the title for recognizability and per WP:COMMONNAME. A list like this absolutely does need to exist, as it is a necessary attendant to other topics (e.g. Scholasticism), as well as individual Medieval scholar pages. SGs formed a network, masters and scholars moved from one to the other frequently, they competed with each other for the same pool of students, teachers, attention and privileges, borrowed each other's structures, formats, regulations and curricula, etc. To use a poor analogy, think of it as a list of clubs in a football league. It doesn't mean there aren't other ball-games, or other clubs in the world. But nothing is gained by inserting Rugby teams or American football teams in the list just because they happen to use a ball and a foot. It's not really adding any helpful information, and would render the list useless. Walrasiad (talk) 02:54, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

1) The definition of a University is an institute of higher education; Oxford Dictionary, Merriam-Webster (they add that it's "authorized to grant academic degrees"), Cambridge Dictionary. Trying to twist the definition to fit into the narrow definition of a European higher institute is obvious bias. 2) You can call it Universities in Western Europe or whatever name fits the article best, but it is very misleading to just keep referring to the article as "medieval universities" alone without allowing it to expand to other regions in medieval times. Either the title must be changed, or the content should be expanded to reflect the title more accurately. --Crazyketchupguy (talk) 03:56, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

We're not going to rely on dictionary definitions for a topic that has been the object of scholarly study for centuries. ElKevbo (talk) 04:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Again, I sympathize, but this list relates to a particular phenomena, following a very specific definition outlined in its introductory paragraphs, not a dictionary. It is not "trying to twist" anything, it is actually a positive scholarly definition, that actually serves a real scholarly purpose. Readers actually need a list of Studium Generale, for studies of history. A list that expands those bounds on some alternative invented definition undermines the point of this list and serves no real purpose. Of course, if the school you're proposing to add had jus ubique docendi, i.e. that its master would have had the right to teach at any and all of the other universities on this list, then obviously that's one we've overlooked. If it doesn't, then it has no reason being on a list of schools that do. It would be like adding the Kansas City Chiefs to the Champions League list, because, hey, they're a kind of champion, aren't they?

Again, to reiterate, this list has a coherent meaning and scholarly purpose in itself, vital to assist scholars of Medieval history. I would support (and have supported) your motion to expand the definition in vanity lists like List of oldest universities in continuous operation, which has no purpose in itself. Walrasiad (talk) 06:44, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your sympathy, I'm touched. On a serious note, let's see how the discussion on this page has been going: People claiming that the term "medieval" is related to European history, proven wrong. People claiming that the term "university" is related to European-style universities only, proven wrong by the most reliable definition sources that are always used on Wikipedia with no problem; nope can't use them. Keep throwing the word "scholarly" around as if it's some sort of logical argument. Keep repeating the same argument that has been replied to; want that list, change the title to something more descriptive, the current one is very misleading and inaccurate; don't want to change the title, then change the content to include other regions in the world. This is clearly no longer a logical discussion and we need someone to interfere before this turns into an edit war. --Crazyketchupguy (talk) 21:19, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

By "scholarly", I mean based on the work of historians who have examined and studied Medieval universities, and provided the definitions which this list is based on, and upheld these identifications.

But this list is not merely scholarly for scholarly's sake, it is also meant to be useful. I happen to be an intellectual historian. And I know how confusing it can be to fellow historians to keep track of Medieval scholars as they jumped around from town to town. The Medieval university network, and the privileges attached to them, can be very confusing, since many only existed on paper, or had very short-lived existences, and some towns may not have had universities at all. And unfortunately it is all very poorly documented, so nothing is obvious. This is why we rely on scholars who have studied them. A comprehensive list is helpful to historians in their research (or anybody doing any mild bit of investigation into biographies of Medieval figures, or church history or social history or the history of education, or whatever). This makes this list is useful to readers. And being useful is what every article in an encyclopedia should be.

I'm sorry, but modern dictionary definitions don't really fit this time frame. I am sensing (and you may correct me) that you simply don't know what a Medieval university was, or have some very mistaken ideas about it. So I will indulge you, and ask you to give me an example of a "Medieval university" outside this list, and why you think it qualifies it to be called that. Walrasiad (talk) 22:05, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Oldest University in the English-Speaking World

The University of Oxford claims to be the oldest university in the "English-Speaking World." They are certainly in that world NOW, but when teaching began in the 11th century (in Latin, like all the other mediaeval universities) the masters and students were probably part of the French-speaking section of the population of England, even if their servants were not. The same objection would apply to Cambridge and Northampton in the 13th century. St. Andrews probably had English-speaking Scottish students when it began, but the masters were Augustinian canons, mainly from Paris plus some (Scotsmen) from Oxford and Cambridge: so I suspect that they would have reverted to French when not speaking in Latin. Next in line in the currently English-speaking world is the University of Glasgow. NRPanikker (talk) 16:09, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

What about the content of university charters?

It seems like the article is missing the most important characteristic of a medieval university despite an attempt to define what a university is. University was not defined by its prestige, type of learning, or catchment area, but mostly by its freedoms from interference by state and Church. There is not a word about this aspect of university in the article and this is what leads to a confusion of university with any kind of higher learning establishment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pernambuco1 (talk • contribs) 01:07, 17 July 2023 (UTC)