Talk:List of locations with a subtropical climate

Australia and New Zealand

This claim is based off a tourism guide. NIWA says that only Auckland, Bay of Plenty and Northland are subtropical: http://www.niwa.co.nz/education-and-training/schools/resources/climate/overview — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.123.104.22 (talk) 04:40, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you; I was troubled by that myself. The description at NIWA squares with what I have learned: New Zealand is predominantly temperate in climate, if mild due to the strong oceanic influence; the far north is the only region that can be described as more subtropical, indeed. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:05, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Wellington at the south end of North Island has eight months a year over 10°C, so most of North Island near sea level is subtropical by the temperature definition. Heff01 (talk) 20:20, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Hobart, Tasmania has nine months a year over 10°C. Also, the yellow-colour map is fairly accurate for New Zealand. I would include all of coastal southern Australia and coastal North Island. Heff01 (talk) 05:38, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Some subtropical locations are classified as oceanic (Cfb) under the Koeppen system. Heff01 (talk) 20:12, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

NIWA is the only cited source for New Zealand and, although it only acknowledges northern North Island as subtropical, it does not rule out other areas. There is a tougher standard at work here than Trewartha. Heff01 (talk) 03:23, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I included links for Wellington and Nelson. The extreme north end of South Island is also subtropical. May this put a Nelson on NIWA-limited thinking as a source. Heff01 (talk) 06:13, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

The north coast of Tasmania is also subtropical under Trewartha, as shown by the WeatherBase link that I included for Hobart. Heff01 (talk) 18:06, 14 October 2016 (UTC

Hobart is on the SE coast, so coastal Tasmania in general may fit the Trewartha definition. Heff01 (talk) 20:14, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

I had my additions for central NZ and Hobart wiped out. They were no farce and pass the Trewartha test, and if we can accept Cornwall, why not examples in western Oceania that are not common knowledge? Preconceived notions of what is and is not subtropical affect some Australian and NZ editors. There is no cold continental air mass around for these areas, so despite being in the low 40s in latitude south, they are marine subtropical as seen on west coasts of continents and on the Argentine coast. Heff01 (talk) 03:55, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

WeatherBase IS the main citation in some Wikipedia articles with regards to temperature averages. It does much more than give weather. Climate is what you expect, weather is what you get. Heff01 (talk) 04:03, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

It was through reading about the Nikau palm that I noticed the Chatham Islands and Hokitika. Heff01 (talk) 07:57, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Wellington is at least hardiness zone 10a, if not 10b. 05:37, 31 December 2016 (UTC) Heff01 (talk)

Actually Wellington is 10b. [1] Heff01 (talk) 04:47, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Hobart is hardiness zone 10a. [2] Heff01 (talk) 05:05, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Crimea

The Crimean Peninsula has fewer than eight months above 10°C, despite some locations having a humid subtropical climate under the Koeppen system. Heff01 (talk) 03:28, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Ditto for other Ukrainian Black Sea coast cities recently added but deleted by me. Heff01 (talk) 04:35, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Yalta does come close. Heff01 (talk) 23:18, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

United States

I expanded this listing to include metros over one million as is done with the European Union listings and to define the subtropical boundaries better. Greensboro, Oklahoma City, and Tulsa are on the cool boundaries. Heff01 (talk) 06:19, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Brookings, Oregon is a little farther north than Chicago and has a subtropical marine/Mediterranean climate. See how much farther north the subtropics go on a west coast than an east coast in the Northern Hemisphere. Heff01 (talk) 06:47, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I had to undo a deletion of Brookings from an unlogged editor. Heff01 (talk) 04:23, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Brookings has a very close weather station in Harbor, OR. Heff01 (talk) 01:46, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

If the Koeppen definition is used, many West Coast locations would be excluded, but the eastern locations expanded to go as far north as Long Island with the 0°C coldest-month boundary and the Boston area with the -3°C boundary. Heff01 (talk) 15:49, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

In the inland West, Koeppen with the 0°C coldest-month boundary would come up into the Columbia Valley of SE Washington State. Heff01 (talk) 05:28, 3 October 2016 (UTC

Tennessee: Memphis and Chattanooga are on the southern boundary of the state and meet the Trewartha definition. Nashville narrowly misses it and Knoxville is on the boundary. Heff01 (talk) 06:12, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Dyersburg is in the NW part of the state and qualifies. It is close to Kentucky and Missouri, neither of which quite reaches the boundary. Heff01 (talk) 04:59, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Baltimore is also at the cool Trewartha boundary, and only because of its urban heat island and being on an arm of Chesapeake Bay. Heff01 (talk) 04:21, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

I have elected not to include Baltimore and Knoxville because they passed the Wikipedia average test but not the WeatherBase test. Heff01 (talk) 04:30, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Please add temperature citations with any new entries. Heff01 (talk) 20:46, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

I showed Fort Myers, FL to show just where the boundary is with tropical in Florida. Heff01 (talk) 07:52, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

The Tropic of Cancer is 70 miles south of Key West. South Florida may have a tropical vibe (exacerbated, sadly, by climate change), but if we call it tropical, then the word loses any real meaning. Clamdigger7 (talk) 20:13, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Texas: Most but not all. Most of the northern panhandle including Amarillo and some highlands in the toe are too cool in winter. Heff01 (talk) 03:35, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

South Carolina: All except an area of highlands in the extreme NW. Heff01 (talk) 04:46, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Louisiana: All. Heff01 (talk) 05:49, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks to the newer NOAA averages from 1981-2011, I have found more borderline subtropical places than expected and added them. Heff01 (talk) 20:53, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Gilbertsville, Kentucky is a manmade subtropical climate, but not by an urban heat island as in Baltimore and London, but due to its position in the neck between two large manmade lakes. This is in the Land Between the Lakes National Recreation Area and the mildest area of Kentucky. Heff01 (talk) 20:15, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Nashville owes its subtropical climate according to Trewartha due to an urban heat island. Manchester, TN is between it and Chattanooga and only has seven months above 10°C. Heff01 (talk) 19:11, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

I am not the one to take Koeppen first more seriously, but rather than zap it out, I have worked to work it into the page. The same was done for New Zealand. Heff01 (talk) 00:31, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Denver's borderline subtropical Koeppen case is at least a full hardiness zone of an annual absolute miniumum temperature than found in Cincinnati or St Louis. Denver has a climate with a much larger diurnal difference of temperatures in the winter. It is 5b in Denver and 6b/7a in Cincinnati and St Louis. Heff01 (talk) 00:36, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I meant that Denver is at least a full zone colder than Cincinnati and St Louis. Denver has warmer winter days, though. Heff01 (talk) 00:38, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Iles Amsterdam/St Paul

An unlogged user (followed by a logged one after I reverted) removed the Iles Amsterdam/St Paul group from the page for the reason of being 'Cfb.' The group has all monthly averages above 10°C and is frost-free. It is both subtropical and oceanic. The climate is akin to that of Tristan da Cunha. Auckland (Cfb) and San Francisco (Csb) also have small seasonal temperature differences, all monthly averages above 10°C, and a subtropical oceanic climate. Heff01 (talk) 07:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Easter Island/Pitcairn Island

According to the Wikipedia pages for both islands, they both have true tropical climates. Therefore, I believe they should be removed. Aoa8212 (talk) 19:41, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Borderline as noted in the article. Heff01 (talk) 06:01, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I was surprised to learn that Adamstown, Pitcairn Island exceeded 1,000 feet in elevation. I made the appropriate note that it was borderline and that, at sea level, the archipelago is tropical. 21:02, 5 February 2017 (UTC)Heff01 (talk)

Criteria for subtropical climate

Climates where the mean temperature of every month is above 64 degrees Fahrenheit shouldn't be included, as this is a true tropical climate. There are also levels of aridity to consider. There are a lot of places on this list that are either too warm all year round, or too dry all year round, or a combination of both that probably shouldn't be on the list. Aoa8212 (talk) 19:46, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Places can be arid and subtropical. Also, locations at or near the 18°C coldest-month boundary (such as Bermuda, Bhopal, and Easter Island) are indicated as such. Heff01 (talk) 07:21, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

The Trewartha definition seems to be the convention here and it is at least eight months at or above 10°C and at least one month below 18°C. Heff01 (talk) 06:00, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Ushant

Here is the WeatherBase link for Ushant: [3] Heff01 (talk) 05:05, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Here is a page for a Breton resort that claims to have tangerine, lemon, and banana trees: [4] Heff01 (talk) 05:05, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

No word on fruit production from aforementioned trees. Heff01 (talk) 04:36, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Islands on the Bay of Biscay coast of France are also marine subtropical, including Ile d'Yeu. Heff01 (talk) 05:38, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

British Isles

The case of Cornwall is borderline due to global warming, as indicated by the link. They should also study the Channel Islands and the extreme SW coast of Ireland. The hardiness zones in these areas are 9b and 10a. Heff01 (talk) 05:02, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

There needs to be more debate about Cornwall. It keeps getting deleted and is borderline by more recent data. The backing link is here: [5] Heff01 (talk) 19:52, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Someone tried to add the Isle of Wight and might actually be onto something, if only it could be backed up by climate data. Heff01 (talk) 23:49, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

I found a graph showing Guernsey to be subtropical, but although Jersey is farther south, it is cooler than Guernsey. Guernsey must have the more favourable position with regard to warm-current flow. Heff01 (talk) 18:29, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Western Turks

Coastal Turkey and Baku have at least eight months >10°C. Hence I added back Baku and Istanbul and newly added Trabzon. Heff01 (talk) 01:43, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

I would dare claim that all Turkish beaches are subtropical according to Trewartha. Heff01 (talk) 03:02, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Canada

Guys, whatever you do, don't add any Canadian cities as subtropical because the whole country of Canada is way off the subtropical regions. Also, Canada including Vancouver and Victoria is not even close to be subtropical. 99.255.143.109 (talk) 18:54, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

To meet the Trewartha standard on the Pacific coast, you have to go down to the south coast of Oregon. 03:33, 7 October 2016 (UTC) Heff01 (talk)

I have a felling that you're going to add Canadian cities as subtropical but no, all areas in Canada are ain't subtropical. 2607:FEA8:A29F:FDEE:84A5:8C3:5C59:F709 (talk) 01:58, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Are you talking to me? I have no such intention since neither Trewartha nor Koeppen justifies it. Heff01 (talk) 02:00, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Yes. Also I have made a list of cities with a Continental climate alongside this list of cities with subtropical climates. 99.255.143.109 (talk) 02:12, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Good luck with that. Heff01 (talk) 06:44, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks and why not add some more cities to that list if needed! 99.255.143.109 (talk) 11:50, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Someone didn't heed the warning and added Vancouver and Victoria. I did what I had to---deleted the entry. I wouldn't be surprised if this editor is Canadian. Heff01 (talk) 20:04, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

London

Centre-city London just misses the line. Only the urban heat island brings it close to par with coastal Cornwall. Heff01 (talk) 03:46, 4 November 2016 (UTC

Global warming may make it subtropical during the next decade as it has done in Cornwall. Heff01 (talk) 03:48, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Gee, what happened to the picture (with palm trees on a residential street) that used to be in the Wikipedia London article? Perhaps a cover-up of evidence of global warming? London Weather Centre is a tied case at present and moving in a subtropical direction. Heff01 (talk) 01:09, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Canary Islands

Coastal portions of some of the Canaries are tropical, since the group is on the boundary. I have included multiple examples to show locations which are subtropical there. Heff01 (talk) 04:50, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Poleward extreme ranges of subtropics

North: London Weather Centre. By conservative estimates Ushant off Brittany. Heff01 (talk) 05:06, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

South: Comodoro Rivadavia, Argentina Heff01 (talk) 04:45, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Jamaica

The Blue Mountains are high enough to be subtropical. At a weather station cited on the Blue Mountain page (located at less than 5,000 feet,) most months are below 18°C. Heff01 (talk) 03:55, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

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US focus

There is no intended US focus. With available NOAA records it is easy to spell out boundaries in the US. Heff01 (talk) 05:41, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Abkazia and Artsakh

A recent edit moved Sukhumi from Abkazia to Georgia because "Abkazia isn't a country, It's a region in western Georgia". Stepanakert is shown as being in Artsakh, the independence of which, like that of Abkazia, is not recognized internationally. For consistency, we should also place Stepanakert in Azerbaijan. I will not make that change for now, as there does not seem to be a consistent criteria for which political units are shown as top-level in this list. - Donald Albury 12:13, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Stepanakert only has seven months over 10° C. Heff01 (talk) 00:06, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Baltimore by numbers

Baltimore has four months (December through March) under 10° C (50° F) and eight above that at its main weather stations.

November: High of 58° F and low of 43° F April: High of 65° F and low of 48° F US Climate Data [6]

November average 50.3° F April average 56.6° F National Climatic Data Center [7] (Reading from Maryland Science Center)

Ergo according to Trewartha Baltimore qualifies as a humid subtropical climate at least in the Downtown and Inner Harbor areas due to an urban heat island. Downtown is the northernmost example in North America east of California. The northernmost example on the North American Atlantic coast is Cape Henlopen including Lewes and Rehoboth Beach, Delaware. Heff01 (talk) 00:06, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Trewartha versus Koeppen

Why am I expanding the memory space of this page significantly this week? There seems to be some misunderstanding about how a place is qualified for the list by definition. I am in favour of inclusion of examples of places meeting Trewartha but not Koeppen, but not places meeting Koeppen but not Trewartha. There are 6b examples of hardiness zone in Cfa zones of Asia and North America. That means that the average annual absolute minimum temperature is below 0° F. I did not start mentioning 'only in Trewartha's classification', but am only trying to keep this page consistent and so I must make the distinctions of included examples. Heff01 (talk) 18:02, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Ergo the note goes to places that have at least eight months >10 degrees C but no months >22 degrees C. Heff01 (talk) 18:21, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Los Angeles and San Diego

These two principal cities of southern California have at least one month>22° C except along the coastal area, which is where LA's International Airport is located. I added a link for Downtown LA as a result. Heff01 (talk) 18:54, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Turpan

Turpan in NW China surprised me. It has one of the largest annual temperature ranges on Earth. I didn't think that any example with at least one month below freezing that could satisfy Trewartha exists until someone found it. January in Turpan is well below freezing, but things warm up quite rapidly as the seasons progress. Despite being extremely arid, the ancient irrigation system and climate allow for viticulture. It also surprises me that an example could exist at such an inland location at that high a latitude. Conditions must be just right. Heff01 (talk) 17:51, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Turpan is actually not a good example as it gets way too cold to be in subtropical(even if for only 2 months) 86.57.5.239 (talk) 20:18, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I would not have known to look there. It is at a considerably-higher latitude that the boundary is found in coastal mainland China, South Korea, or even Honshu. It is in a depression below sea level. Heff01 (talk) 05:24, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Based on what?

I wonder based on what guidelines are you adding locations @Heff01 ? Trewartha? Holdridge??

If this is based on Trewartha, then is it wise to add any desert or semi-arid location?PAper GOL (talk) 17:12, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I am using Trewartha and this includes some drier locations. Heff01 (talk) 21:04, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

The reason I asked the question about drier places was the exceptional case of Turpan which surprisingly has chilly winters. The classification systems are a bit broad so that they may not consider a seemingly impossible case like Turpan depression with 8 months averaging above 10C and having 2 months averaging below freezing.PAper GOL (talk) 15:27, 6 October 2023 (UTC)