Talk:List of government ministers of the United Kingdom

Confusion

Hi, this page sounds like an interesting idea, but I'm a little bit confused about what it 'aims to include'. Is it a list of:

• all current ministerial offices (like already exists at Second Johnson ministry),
• every ministerial office to ever exist (like has already been attempted in relation to the various Secretaries of State at Secretary of State (United Kingdom), a page which I'm currently in the process of trying to improve) or
• only the most high profile ministerial offices (and, if so, how would you define these)?

FollowTheTortoise (talk) 20:01, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi. Probably the second one, ministerial offices by policy area Moondragon21 01:48, 20 January 2021

Thanks for responding! Keep up the good work! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 22:00, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

PS. You might find this webpage useful. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 22:01, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Duplication?

Hi, I'm concerned that this article might be duplicating what's in other articles. British Government frontbench gives all the current ministerial positions. Secretary of State (UK) lists all current and previous SofS positions. Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State and Minister of State (UK) list all current positions of these ranks, and have nascent lists of historic positions. I'm a big believer in SVOT as a general principle, and think there probably shouldn't be multiple, highly overlapping, lists in different articles. I do see a role for this article, but I think its role should be to signpost to the other lists, and capture the few positions not able to be listed elsewhere, such as Deputy Prime Minister and Minister without Portfolio. Mmitchell10 (talk) 17:14, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

I almost completely agree, though I'd like to hear more about the sort of thing you were imagining for this page. If I am right in imagining the sort of idea that you have, perhaps that information would be more useful in Politics of the United Kingdom? I would also like to note that in the various discussions about this page that there have been, I have meant no disrespect to @Moondragon21, whose views I am very interested in hearing and who I know is a hardworking editor who has spent a lot of time on this page! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 17:59, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Comment - British Government frontbench provides lists of ministers per any revolving British government, but more accurately noted in the Template:British ministries which shows which ministers stay in position for a certain time period and there are certain small differences like Parliamentary Private Secretary to the PM is added on the former and a full list in the Official Opposition frontbench article. Condo951795 (talk) 06:35, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

@FollowTheTortoise, Moondragon21, and Condo951795: I agree that a lot of work has gone into this article, which is great, and we certainly don't want to waste that. Many of the ministerial positions listed here, and their references, are not yet on the relevant Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State and Minister of State (UK) pages. Therefore I envisage them being WP:SECMOVE from this article to the relevant other article, and instead this article would look something like this: Draft:List of government ministers of the United Kingdom. What do others think? Mmitchell10 (talk) 20:33, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

That makes sense to me! So long as the additions to the other articles are referenced. I can think of a couple of small edits that I'd make to your draft. Should I add those myself or tell you them? Also, the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975, sch 2 might be a good checklist. Thanks for your work on this! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 20:49, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

I have no problem with this. I appreciate the debate as it's really not obvious figuring out how to list these articles. Perhaps the UK ministerial offices being categorised by policy area lists should be on the articles of each department. Moondragon21 (talk) 01:13, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I've had a play around with the article, making some substance-related and some formatting-related changes. They might make it better, they might make it worse! By the way, what do you mean by your second statement (third sentence)? We've already got ministerial offices and their portfolios on each government department article (for example, on the Cabinet Office article). Or were you imagining something different? FollowTheTortoise (talk) 18:58, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Hey! I've just had a thought. Could we possibly incorporate what's in this article/the draft article into Template:Uk-gov-positions? That template is on numerous pages (I'm not sure if it's possible to find out exactly how many) and, if updated to include the information that is currently on this page/the draft template, would likely help a lot more people than this article which only gets a daily average of 68 pageviews. Or do you think that the information in question is better suited to this list page than a template? Or both? FollowTheTortoise (talk) 23:05, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, I hadn't spotted that template. I think the template is pretty misleading at the moment, as there are many UK Government political offices it omits. The ideal would be if it listed all the categories of minister (for example, by adding in Treasury ministers and Law officers of the Crown), and those headings could be the section headings on this article. However, it seems unlikely the positions will all fit into neat categories like that??? Mmitchell10 (talk) 19:46, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Good thinking. I think that the categories on your draft at the moment are pretty good. A few do only have one or two offices, but most have more than that. What do you think of those? FollowTheTortoise (talk) 21:29, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

I think they're good. I've gone for it, and updated Template:Uk-gov-positions. I also started work to bring this article in line with the Draft by WP:SECMOVEing the Under-Secretary and Minister of State (UK) positions to the relevant articles, however it's a large job and I bailed out. Will have to re-attack when I have more time. Mmitchell10 (talk) 07:33, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

@FollowTheTortoise, Moondragon21, and Condo951795: It's done. Mmitchell10 (talk) 17:40, 21 August 2021 (UTC)