Talk:List of Welsh television programmes

Title

Shouldn't this per the lead, be named List of Welsh dramas or List of Welsh television dramas? Unless you have already added non-dramas or plan to? DankJae 21:19, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm considering adding non-fiction at a later date. You're welcome to make improvements to the page or start adding any others if you wish. Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 22:55, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Lists need inclusion criteria. What are they here? Is this a list of shows set in Wales? Produced in Wales? Commissioned in Wales? What makes it Welsh TV? And what sources demonstrate that collection? For the most part the entries here seem, on the face of it, to make perfect sense, but there are edge cases to consider. A list must not be indiscriminate. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:19, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

It's generally a list of fictional series produced by Welsh companies/Wales based companies or Welsh sub-organisations of a British company. This could be expanded to those commissioned in Wales too.

There's a separate heading at the bottom of the page for notable series filmed in Wales.

Happy to amend criteria or make tweaks and/or expand the article in some way. Titus Gold (talk) 14:02, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Since adding Steeltown Murders, the page name now needs to be changed again since the series is based on real events. (did not anticipate this addition!) Titus Gold (talk) 19:42, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

I've since added sub-heading and amended the page name again. Should be stable now. Titus Gold (talk) 19:59, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

@Sirfurboy, the inclusion criteria is unclear. You're probably aware, but mentioning per MOS:TVNATIONALITY this is decided by either what the show is common described as per reliable sources or the nationality of the company that has principal creative control so potentially in many instances the production company (not the commissioner or animator if separate) IMO. So I'm guessting by studios that describe themselves as Welsh can be included? So BBC Wales, ITV Wales and smaller ones clearly stating they're Welsh? But those made outside Wales probably shouldn't be here.

And those "set in Wales" probably should not be included here, but could be split into List of television shows and films set in Wales which has other similar articles (films; tv). But if splitting is not justified, then it could go down the route of Manchester (List of television programmes set, produced or filmed in Manchester) although that seems to be the only article for that precedent and with a very long title. DankJae 20:55, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to splitting to another page of programmes set and filmed in Wales. Titus Gold (talk) 01:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I came here because this was added to the Wales article that I edit, but I don't tend to edit entertainment articles. My concern here is that this list does not seem to know what it is about, as evidenced by the slew of name changes already. In under 6 hours it went from List of Welsh television series -> List of fictional Welsh television series -> List of Welsh fiction television series -> List of Welsh television programmes. It seems to me that the inclusion criteria need to be understood first and then the page name will suggest itself. I also believe that a move discussion would be a lot less disruptive than this constant movement, which, as you can see, leaves pointless redirects behind.

So on inclusion criteria: MOS:TVNATIONALITY does pertain, although that really refers to a lead section of an article. How a series is itself described. The inclusion criteria there are instructive, but what is more important here is WP:NLIST which discusses notability for lists, and says:

One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines.

This is not the only means of measuring the notability of a list but by far the most pertinent, and the one that will best armour this page against a referral to AfD. So, as per my original comment, what sources demonstrate that this collection is a collection? What are their inclusion criteria? When we have the sources we have the inclusion ciretria, and when we have the inclusion criteria we know the list name. As with everything on Wikipedia, it all starts with the sources. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:46, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

See external links for examples of collection and Wales being a country gives collective justification also.

My suggested inclusion criteria; produced or commissioned by a company based in Wales or by a Welsh subdivision e.g BBC Cymru Wales. Titus Gold (talk) 12:15, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I think the 3 external links demonstrate a fundamental mismatch that needs greater clarity. Two of the links are about programmes set in Wales, but the first one, this one [1], is actually titled "the 50 greatest TV shows ever made in Wales". This is the only list that has shows not specifically set in Wales, but clarified that it is shows made in Wales. I don't think the list can be both, as it tends to become indiscriminate then. The BBC was directed to move producution out ofd the South East of England, which led to massive regeneration in South Wales and the creation of the first class studios in Cardiff Bay. This is a success story, and many of the shows there are indubitably made in Wales. Yet if they are made by the British Broadcasting Corporation with money from the British license payer, they are also British shows. Doctor Who is very much a case in point. A show that was, for many years, made by the BBC in England is now made for the BBC in Wales. Is it made in Wales? Yes. Is it a Welsh show? Maybe, but it is also a British show, and wrong to lose the sense of Britishness at expense of Welshness when all the British paid for it to be made and shown on the British national broadcasting service. Even the one source that lists Doctor Who describes its list as "shows made in Wales" and not "Welsh shows". There is a disparity here.

So, I think there are potentially two lists. This could be either (and maybe there is room for another). Is the list shows made in Wales? Title change needed. Or is it Welsh dramas/shows/things set in Wales? But then, what of an S4C Welsh language production that happens to be set in space? (None come to mind!) It seems to me that what you want to do most closely resembles TV shows made in Wales. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:24, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

As per MOS:TVNATIONALITY, "A series's nationality (country of origin) should be referenced by reliable sources, directly if possible, but otherwise by referencing the country or collaboration within which principal creative control was exercised." According to these guidelines, it is principal creative creative control which is noted and funding does not seem to be mentioned.

Doctor Who as an example is now produced by Bad Wolf (based in Wales) and BBC Cymru Wales, a subdivision of the BBC. Doctor Who is also on the Wikipedia list of British programmes. Arguably, it could be considered both a Welsh and British programme based on the production company creative control.

There are other programmes produced entirely by organisations not part of the BBC in Wales and so are arguably Welsh only productions. All BBC programmes appear to be paid by license fee, of which the budget of BBC Wales I assume is determined by BBC. The Welsh Government does also have a formal role in the BBC charter review.[2]

When it comes to S4C programmes, S4C seems to be a separate organisation owned by the S4C Authority, with programme funding now coming from the BBC license fee. BBC and S4C do have a joint agreement to co-operate on certain things.[3] Based on production, S4C productions are Welsh only productions unless a non-Welsh based company is involved in production.

I'm not opposed to a split forming a separate list of programmes based in Wales that are produced by e.g American companies in Wales, like Willow (TV series) for example. Titus Gold (talk) 15:28, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Funding does not really command creative control, so not really considered IMO, although there may be exceptions.

If it is described as both "Welsh" and "British" best for it to be in both lists. Its lead should be decided at the article's talk page, but what term its lead uses is not the sole reason for it to be here.

Isn't Doctor Who now overseen a lot more by BBC Studios? Which is British? Seen Welsh sources use "Welsh-filmed" as well, which seems to be dodging in classing it as solely "Welsh", no?

If a show is made by an American company, then unless sources describe it otherwise, it should be assumed American, which I had to deal for Welcome to Wrexham. Companies based in Wales (as part of the United Kingdom) are technically both Welsh companies and British companies in terms of nationality/country, so much more complex to determine what term to use.

Be free to start a wider discussion at projects WP:TV or WP:UK to see the best way forward in this discussion, this may need a new consensus, or clearer guidelines. But best discussed, not too into entertainment but renationalising series is a bit controversial, so in need of a discussion.

If the set in Wales section gets quite long, I do suggest it split into its own list, there is a precedent for it at least. The current section is not too long to justify a split yet. DankJae 18:22, 22 May 2023 (UTC)