Talk:List of the Smashing Pumpkins band members

List of the Smashing Pumpkins band members is a former featured list candidate. Please view the link under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. Once the objections have been addressed you may resubmit the article for featured list status.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
July 18, 2010	Peer review	Reviewed
October 6, 2010	Featured list candidate	Not promoted

Current status: Former featured list candidate

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

Biography: Musicians

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
	This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians (assessed as Low-importance).

Alternative music: Smashing Pumpkins Mid‑importance

	Rock music portal This article is part of WikiProject Alternative music, a group of Wikipedians interested in improving the encyclopedic coverage of articles relating to alternative rock. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project's talk page.Alternative musicWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative musicTemplate:WikiProject Alternative musicAlternative music
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is within the scope of The Smashing Pumpkins task force, a task force which is currently considered to be inactive.

Chicago Low‑importance

	Chicago portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Chicago, which aims to improve all articles or pages related to Chicago or the Chicago metropolitan area.ChicagoWikipedia:WikiProject ChicagoTemplate:WikiProject ChicagoChicago
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Lists Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

4th section for members

I still think there should be a distinction between 2 groups of people in the "live members" section. For some people, such as Matt Walker or Dennis Flemion, this seems accurate. However, I still don't think "Gabrial McNair – trombone" or "Stephen Bradley – trumpet (2008)" belong on there. I'm sure they played with the Smashing Pumpkins, but I don't think they were any sort of "member". It's not like their music was every predominantly featured in concerts, they were only featured in select songs. To list these back-up horn players as "members" almost makes The Smashing Pumpkins look like a ska group or something.

I feel like there should be another group for them, such as "Supporting Musicians" or something. Sergecross73 msg me 19:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Touring Musicians Contributions

Should there be any mentionings of the contributions that any of the touring members have made to the studio albums, or will that just further confuse the line between "touring" and "actual" members? Just curious, because I know there are some out there, like Mike Garson's Piano in Machina 1/2, or Matt Walker's drumming on TEITBITE. Just throwing it out there, I can see how it could be either a good or bad idea... Sergecross73 msg me 13:21, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sure That makes sense to me. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:53, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mike Garson and Chris Holmes played with the band in 2000. Kerry Brown has filled in for Jimmy. There were also 2 auxillary percussionists on the 1998 tour.Gregoriop (talk) 00:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reduce the listing to two sections

Aside from current-vs.-former, the other distinctions are Wikipedia contrivances. A contrived distinction is not necessarily a bad thing, and just because there is a gray does not mean there is a black and a white.

But I don't see the purpose of drawing a distinction between 'former' and 'former touring', or between 'former touring' and 'former temporary touring'. Why do we bother drawing these distinctions--so that we can argue over them? What would be the problem with just having a big 'former' category? Jjb (talk) 00:54, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Timeline

Is the timeline right? I'm little confused as it has several band members listed as working or worked on studio albums but above in the article is says different. On other articles from Wiki it says they didn't as well unless I'm reading the time graph wrong.67.169.198.227 (talk) 08:20, 24 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Melissa Auf der Maur member status

Touring member Auf der Maur (who substituted Wretkzy during Machina tour; as several musicians substituted Chamberlin on tour) is unsourced as an official member of the Pumpkins. Lapadite (talk) 04:17, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if she is stated as an official member, but rather just a former touring musician who "provided few, if any, studio contributions". A source was easily found for this, among many, so consider that much verifiable — MusikAnimal ^talk 04:42, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There were plenty of sources at the band article's talk page archives, but I think it's a bit hard to tell just because way back then, it was the band's first real lineup change. No one was really concerned about the officiality of membership back then, because it had been a non-issue up until that point. I've been maintaining the article with her as a member because there are so many "Auf der Maur replaced Wretzky sources", and this article lead me to believe that was the last consensus on it, but either way, the fanbase is constantly doing drive by changing of membership either way. Sergecross73 msg me 16:03, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I seem to remember BC making a comment at the time along the lines of Melissa being an "official, card-carrying member of the band". The only thing I can find to validate that is this press release from 2000, but it depends on how you read "joins the band" there. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 11:14, 10 October 2015 (UTC).[reply]

All touring members "join the band". Corgan himself said the original members planned on a final album and final tour before Wretzky left the band. Auf def Maur was only a touring substitute for Wretzky during this one-year period. If she had played on the studio album or been asked to join the band after the reunion then she would be considered an official member, but that's not the case. If Auf der Mar was an official member of The Smashing Pumpkins for substituting Wretzy on tour then all of Chamberlin's substitutes would also be official members. Lapadite (talk) 20:48, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:List of the Smashing Pumpkins band members/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s) Press [show] to view →

To do for WP:FA nomination:

Write alt text for all images
Expand lead per WP:LEAD to give an overview of what the article is going to say. This should preview the fact that The Smashing Pumpkins were a traditional rock outfit for their first decade but have since become more of a musical collective centered around Billy Corgan since their reformation.
- And that would be in the first paragraph, right? WereWolf (talk) 17:39, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes One to a few paragraphs, depending on the length of the text that follows. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:50, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the text--especially in the last paragraph--is choppy and should be amended to make more complex compound sentences with a natural flow.
Some touring musicians are only mentioned in the table and not the text; the text should at least explain that they played with The Smashing Pumpkins, even if not all of them are listed by name (I'm specifically thinking of the "temporary touring musicians" listed at the end of the tables.)
Create a timeline, see {{Include timeline}}. I have created one for List of Magnapop band members and could make one again.

If you create a timeline, it must pass WP:ACCESS so that blind users can see it. There was a timeline for the List of Red Hot Chili Peppers band members (see here: =List_of_Red_Hot_Chili_Peppers_band_members&diff=365261853&oldid=365261826#Timeline ), but I had to remove it, since it didn't pass WP:ACCESS. I'm not quite sure if the Template:Include timeline passes ACCESS, but you could ask for help on the talk page. WereWolf (talk) 17:39, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks I'll look into this. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:50, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Access These aren't images, just divs; they don't need (and can't have) alt text. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:03, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a bit skeptical about Ginger (Reyes) Pooley having not been a member of the band, but a touring musician. Especially since Nicole Fiorentino is her replacement but is an actual member.
- Ginger Pooley isn't considered a "Former member", because no official announcement was made regarding her membership. For example, Boom Gaspar has been with Pearl Jam since 2002. He tours with the band, performs on two studio albums, and even co-wrote "Love Boat Captain" from Riot Act. However, he is not considered an official member of the band, because there has been no official announcement from the band, the management, or Gaspar himself. The same applies to Pooley. WereWolf (talk) 17:39, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Find images for (I am checking Flickr now):

~~Mike Byrne ([1], [2], [3])~~
~~Jonathan Melvoin~~
Dennis Flemion ([4], [5])
~~Kenny Aronoff (=all&q=Kenny+Aronoff&m=text many good options on Flickr)~~
~~Mark Tulin ([6], [7], [8], [9])~~
~~Gingger Shankar ([10], [11], [12], [13])~~
~~Kristopher Pooley (this is all I can find: [14])~~

The only photos we can use are the last three of Gingger Shankar. All of the other photos are protected by copyright, and we can't use them, because all rights are reserved. We can only use the photos with the Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 Generic and Attribution 2.0 Generic, which the photos of Shankar have. WereWolf (talk) 17:39, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Importing There is a process for importing Flickr content. Basically, you just e-mail the user on Flickr and ask for a change of license; I've done it several times before myself. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:50, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh, okay, cool! I didn't know that. We'll do that then. WereWolf (talk) 18:08, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done for now I uploaded one photo and am waiting to hear back for the rest. This shouldn't stop FL status anyway. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:04, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Look at other FA-lists that are band members (presently List of Megadeth band members, List of Nine Inch Nails band members, List of Red Hot Chili Peppers band members, and List of Slipknot band members), what do they have that this article lacks?
- I brought the List of Red Hot Chili Peppers band members to featured list status, so I will compare that list with this list for consistency. WereWolf (talk) 17:39, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confident that if these straight-forward changes are made, then this is a reasonable FA candidate. I am also watching and amending this page and I will continue to edit it through an FA nomination. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:02, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 02:18, 16 September 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 22:10, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on List of The Smashing Pumpkins band members. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:05, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on List of the Smashing Pumpkins band members. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:48, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Change section headers

This page is a bit of an outlier in the membership articles. Specifically in the header of the section for instance:

Current members

Since 2023, the official lineup of the Smashing Pumpkins includes one vocalist/guitarist/bassist/keyboardist, one guitarist/bassist, and one drummer.

Current members of The Smashing Pumpkins

I think this should be removed as all this information can be inferred from the content of the section Mewhen123 (talk) 13:09, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It should not be removed, per MOS:DTAB and MOS:TABLECAPTION. Please do not remove table captions. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:04, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting guideline, that seems to be more directed when a section has many tables, it doesn't seem to be enforced in any other membership article and I think it makes these articles needlessly repetitive. Mewhen123 (talk) 17:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is for literally all data tables on Wikipedia and yes, it is extremely common for others to not include basic accessibility features. I would venture that 1% of images here have alt text, but the solution is to add it to the images that lack it, not remove it from the ones that do. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alt text on images is a different discussion Mewhen123 (talk) 18:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How is it different? They are both basic accessibility requirements. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One is describing an image and is describing a set of words, they're obviously different mediums Mewhen123 (talk) 18:17, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Of course they are different: any time you compare two things, they will be different somehow. The common denominator is that they are both required accessibility features. This was the point I was making, which evidently did not get communicated. I'm explaining how the Web is largely not accessible and needs to be moreso. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the point of alt text, I don't see it as comparable to the table. I got that you were making a comparison but I don't see them as equal things Mewhen123 (talk) 20:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They are equal to the extent that they are both required accessibility features and they assist (among others) the bling in using this resource. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:13, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]