Talk:List of Jewish footballers

This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:

Keep, 4 October 2022, see discussion.
keep, 7 March 2014 (UTC), see discussion.

Table format?

If we convert it to a table format, what parameters should we have?

Name	Nationality	Date of birth	Date of death	Position	Years active	International caps	International goals	References
Schaffer, Alfréd	Hungary	1893	1945	FW	c. 1900-1925	15	17	^[1]

Any other suggestions? Giant Snowman 18:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think that looks very good. Perhaps we should add the leagues the player competed in (at least fully-pro ones, so help show notability for players that might not have played international football)? Jogurney (talk) 18:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Something like this you mean?:

Name	Nationality	Birth	Death	Pos.	Years active	Leagues	Int. caps	Int. goals	References
Schaffer, Alfréd	Hungary	1893	1945	FW	c. 1900-1925	Bundesliga Czech Liga Bundesliga NB I Serie A American Soccer League	15	17	^[2]

Personally I think leagues played in isn't relly necessary, as players' notability can be found by clicking on their article...Giant Snowman 19:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, now that I see how it would look, I agree it's better to leave the leagues out. I assume that the nationality for players who were not internationals should just be based on their country of birth (and no link to a national team is needed). Jogurney (talk) 20:05, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For nationalities, we should use the {{flag|Hungary}} template, as opposed to {{fb|Hungary}}. And yeah, nationalities on place of birth OR declared nationality. Do you want to convert the list or shall I do it? Giant Snowman 20:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I took a first pass at it (with ARG only). Should the c. be removed for instances where the career length is certain? Also, what is the best way to report unknown dates of birth and death? Thank you. Jogurney (talk) 20:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, if we know when a career started/ended, then don't use a circa. As for dates of death/birth, ~~use decades or even centuries if we don't have a specific date~~ leave blank actually. I'll have a go at converting the rest of the page, but good work with Argentina! Giant Snowman 23:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually two quick things:

I think we should use years for dates of birth/death, as opposed to full dates. This table is really meant to be an brief overview.
I also think we should use the {{fb|Nation}} template across all players, for uniformity. After all, regardless of international appearances, we are talking about sporting nationality.

Thoughts? If you're happy, I'll convert the whole list. Giant Snowman 23:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That works for me. Thank you. Jogurney (talk) 23:41, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt I'll have lots of time over the next few days to be honest, so if you want to do some converting as well, it'd be much appreciated! Cheers, Giant Snowman 00:21, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Schaffer, Alfred 'Spezi'". Jews In Sports. Retrieved 14 October 2009.
^ "Schaffer, Alfred 'Spezi'". Jews In Sports. Retrieved 14 October 2009.

How Jewish do you have to be?

David Beckham is 1/4 Jewish so would he meet the inclusion criteria? Spiderone 07:44, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Beckham isn't technically Jewish; Judaism is passed down through women, but it is his grandfather who was Jewish. Giant Snowman 11:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But doesn't that mean Jonathan Bornstein isn't a Jew since he's only paternally Jewish? Spiderone 11:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good question. I was under the impression that one had to be Jewish to play in the Maccabiah Games (as Bornstein has), but perhaps that's not the case. Jogurney (talk) 14:16, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I remember Number 57 (talk · contribs), who isn't Jewish, being asked to represent GB in the Maccabiah Games back when he was living in Israel...so I guess the rules for playing in the Maccabiah Games are pretty lax. As for Bornstein, there is a direct source that says he is Jewish, so perhaps his mother converted...Giant Snowman 14:20, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I take it you guys are not familiar with reform Judaism. 94.195.201.23 (talk) 22:55, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm personally not, would you care to enlighten us? Giant Snowman 23:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think just because someone is not halakhic jewish, he remains at least part of the jewish people. At least he remains an ethnical jew. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saflid (talk • contribs) 02:12, 28 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As a general matter, while some Jews (e.g., Orthodox Jews) view someone as a Jew for religious matters only if their mother is Jewish (or they converted to Judaism), other Jews (e.g., Reform Jews) view someone as Jewish for religious purposes if either parent is Jewish (or they converted to Judaism).

Israel's Law of Return respects the interpretations of both Orthodox Jewry and Reform Jewry on this issue.

In baseball, at the 2013 World Baseball Classic – Qualifier 1, under the applicable rules Team Israel was entitled to have non-Israeli citizens of Jewish heritage play for the team, which they indicated includes at least one Jewish parent or grandparent.[1]

Furthermore, one may be part of the Jewish nation, or ethnically a Jew, without being a practicing Jew.

Of moment here is the Jewish Sports Review, which is relied upon by many RSs. It's criteria are: "that an athlete is Jewish if one of his parents is Jewish, he did not practice any other religion while he played, and he identified ethnically as a member of the Jewish community. If an athlete has a Jewish parent but was raised in, or converted to, another faith, or indicated to JSR that he did not wish to be considered Jewish, he is excluded (even though under Jewish law he might be considered Jewish)." The publication actually contacts athletes or their representative or a very close family member to make its determinations.Epeefleche (talk) 05:13, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Unknown

How can it be unknown whether a player has international caps or not? Gapez0r (talk) 17:50, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is an indication that we don't know how many caps the player had. I found a reference for Ezra Sued's number of caps and have updated accordingly. Jogurney (talk) 18:41, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requests:

Request no 1.: adding additional players to the list who have been confirmed to be Jewish (example - players which have a christian mother and are jewish because they have converted..)

Request no 2.: add the Maccabiah squads players to this list.

Request no 3.: Add Columns - Here is the information we hold in our Scout agency Player Name Nationality Age Pos Club Club Country Tier Refs International Caps International Goals Last updated Notes

After examining the list we can add these columns : Age (can be calculated someway) Pos (GK,DF,MF,FW) Club Club Country Tier (the level of the league) Refs International Caps International Goals Last updated (The date this info was edited) Notes (Special notes on players)

Request no . 4 : Please add some new requests also based on the top 3 sections.

Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by HonorTheIsland (talk • contribs) 13:26, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The only item I will comment on is "Age" in Request 3. I feel this is likely to be unmaintainable. Year of birth is entirely sufficient in my view, so I oppose age. WHile the other items appear reasonable I choose to remain neutral on them. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 14:03, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Jacob Muir plays for Perth Glory 2400:EC40:100E:8D01:D12B:30FC:1F22:E1E4 (talk) 13:46, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Understood. Age is out of the question.

comment added by HonorTheIsland (talk 15:00, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding adding new players in Request 1 - that is fine as long as a reliable source confirms they are Jewish. What do you mean by "Maccabiah squads players" in Request 2? Request 3 - why do we need age, club, tier etc. This is a list of historical as well as current players and so would not be relevant to most. The only new column I would support would be a 'Notes' column. Giant Snowman 15:26, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Jogurney was the one with Brailovski. I am not adding at all. just fixing the links to some of the players..comment added by HonorTheIsland (talk 17:00, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Adding jewish footballers

Each sunday morning, a new country will be represented for discussion for the following week. Starting this week : Argentina, which has many famous jewish footballers. The list of players will be brought up for discussion sunday morning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HonorTheIsland (talk • contribs) 11:00, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As stated above, any player can be added as long as there is reliable sources which state that they are Jewish. Giant Snowman 11:18, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Continued IP deletion of RS-supported text, against consensus. Despite two editors have discussed this and warned that it is not appropriate to delete RS-supported text (and the RS) based on personal belief being at odds with the RS, an IP continues to do so. Against consensus, as well.

Two editors have discussed the issue with the IP. Both on its talkpage, and in edit summaries.

Yet the IP continues to delete text and the supporting RS. Based on, as the IP put it in an edit summary, personal belief which is at odds with the RS: "Listen, ... I can tell you we don't have proof ...").

As WP:VAND states, vandalism includes: "Sometimes referenced information or important verifiable references are deleted with no valid reason(s) given in the summary."

Such is the case here -- personal belief, at odds with the RS, does not permit one to do delete the text and RS ref. Especially over the objection of the other editors.Epeefleche (talk) 15:16, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The IP has done it again, just now. Without an edit summary giving a legitimate explanation. The text is supported by the RS Jews and the Olympic Games: sport: a springboard for minorities by Paul Yogi Mayer, published by Vallentine Mitchell (2004), ISBN 0-85303-451-6. Epeefleche (talk) 00:25, 8 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Walter Samuel is NOT Jewish

Walter Samuel has been on these Jewish sportsmen/Jewish footballer lists since he emerged from Newell's/Boca Juniors because someone determined that his (ADOPTED) surname sounds Jewish. A number of so-called "articles" in "respected newspapers" have basically used these lists as sources to state that he is Jewish. Upon closer inspection, however, these are just blog posts on the newspapers web site which are not subject to the fact checking of actual news stories or interviews. Wikipedia guidelines on verifiability state "Several newspapers, magazines, and other news organizations host columns on their web sites that they call blogs. These may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals, but use them with caution because the blog may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process." None of the cited sources either on this page or the former sources on the Walter Samuel page (long since deleted for the reasons listed here) are reliable sources. An actual news story from the biggest sports daily (Diario Olé) in the country where Walter Samuel is actually from (Argentina) which contains actual quotes from Samuel's mother (the one who is supposedly Jewish) La Ciudad Del Muro states that Samuel's mother (Gladys) "Cuenta que mira los partidos acompañada por la Virgencita." Translation: "She tells us that she watches games with a Virgin Mary statue." There are no reliable sources (using the Wikipedia definition of the term) that he is Jewish. The only reliable source on the subject would suggest that he is not (since Jewish women generally don't look to the Virgin Mary for support during their sons' football games). If references to his Jewish religion/ethnicity have been purged from the Walter Samuel page, I don't quite understand why he remains on this list of Jewish footballers. (I am Jewish and would love it if Samuel were Jewish. But I gain no sense of ethnic pride by stating that someone is Jewish when they are not.) Dawindler (talk) 07:00, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide a reliable source confirming he is not, given the presence of one which states he is. Giant Snowman 13:14, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, where is the reliable source that states that he is Jewish? I've been looking for one for years. Do you have a link? I provided an actual "reliable source," (linked above) based on an actual journalist from the biggest sports daily in Argentina who actually spoke to his mother (the person who so-called reliable sources say is Jewish -- no one has ever contended that his biological father whose last name is Lujan is Jewish) who says that she watches his games clutching a Virgin Mary statue. A blog essay about Jewish footballers which uses circular sourcing is not a reliable source. Dawindler (talk) 19:51, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This from Haaretz (already linked in the article) states Samuel has two Jewish parents, and says that Samuel has acknowledged his Judaism but said it is not important to him. Giant Snowman 20:23, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a news story. That's some blog writer writing an essay about Jewish footballers. What are the writer's sources? Did he talk to Samuel or to his Jewish parents? Even though Haaretz's news stories are definitely reliable sources, a blog or opinion piece is not. See quoted Wikipedia guidelines above. I have offered an actual news story. The journalist himself visited Firmat, Santa Fe (in itself raising a red flag, as a small town in Santa Fe rather than Buenos Aires is hardly a Jewish mecca). The journalist himself spoke to Walter Samuel's mother, Gladys Samuel. Gladys Samuel (supposedly Jewish according to the article you linked) herself says that she watches games clutching a Virgin Mary statue. Haaretz is a wonderful publication which I have a digital subscription, but that does not make this non-news story a reliable source per wikipedia guidelines. The fact that the source is not reliable should be enough to cast doubt on Samuel's jewishness. But beyond this, I have offered an actual interview with the supposedly Jewish mother that says that she watches his games accompanied by a figure of the Virgin Mary. Note that even before this interview with Samuel's mother came to light, another Wikipedia editor curating the Walter Samuel page (who appears to be familiar with both Argentina and Judaism) did not find the Haaretz article and similar other non-primary sources sufficiently reliable to keep mention of Samuel's supposed Judaism on the actual Walter Samuel page. Dawindler (talk) 20:40, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an interview with a catholic priest who says in the interview that he officiated at Samuel's wedding. "Su compromiso excede las casi 50 hectáreas de Ezeiza. Ha bautizado a los hijos de varios jugadores en sus propios pueblos, y ha casado a una extensa lista de futbolistas. 'Casé a Samuel, Romero, Burdisso, Mac Allister, al Polaco Arzeno, de quien además soy su padrino de bodas. Resulta que cuando se fue a casar, ni él ni la mujer estaban bautizados. Los llevé a una parroquia para bautizarlos, les salí de padrino a los dos, y después los uní en matrimonio.'" Translation: "I officiated over the wedding of Samuel, [Sergio] Romero, Burdisso [I assume Nicolas but maybe his brother], [Carlos] Mac Allister, [Claudio] Polaco Azzeno, who I was also best man for. When he [Arzeno] wanted to get married, neither he nor the bride were baptized...." El Cura de La Selección (The National Team's Priest) El Gráfico, in which this article appears, is Argentina's longest running sports periodical. It used to be weekly, now it's monthly. Do you need me to dig up a home video of his baptism as a child? Dawindler (talk) 20:58, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A pic from Samuel's wife Cecilia Verhagen's instagram account. Note the cross. Dawindler (talk) 22:16, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OK, you looking at pictures of his relatives with Christian symbols is not acceptable and is WP:OR. The fact is that I have presented a reliable source which clearly states he is Jewish. The fact his wife is Catholic, or his marriage was a Catholic ceremony? Irrelevant. His mother holding a statute does not affect Walter. She might have converted to Christianity, who knows? Not us, and we shouldn't be making such assumptions. Giant Snowman 00:07, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You both seem to be in heated discussion. It might be cool discussion, but it looks warmer than that. There is a simple principle, highlighted in WP:TRUTH that we will record that black is white if that is the sole WP:RS reference we have, even if we can see with our own eyes (WP:OR) the reality that black is black. Put plain, if an RS source says he is Jewish and all we have to gainsay that is non RS, we record him as Jewish. 50/50 we record what each says. 80/20 we record that some sources say he is Jewish, others not. The difference is if we have an RS source where he says he is or is not Jewish. Despite being WP:PRIMARY that does trump it all because he is self identifying. Fiddle Faddle 00:24, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Faddle. But a point that appears to be missed by both of you is that the Haaretz article is NOT a reliable source per Wikipedia guidelines cited above. It is NOT a news story. It is a blog post in a (it is true) otherwise respectable publication. Based on the unreliability of that article alone, I would take Samuel off the list. The additional material cited by me (two actual interviews) and it is true one piece of original research was intended to be subsidiary to my main argument that the Haaretz article is not reliable per Wikipedia guidelines. I'm not using my cited sources to make any affirmative sentence on Wikipedia that "Walter Samuel is not Jewish." Rather, I use it to cast additional doubt on an already suspect source. I'm not proposing to cite to the instagram picture in any actual wikipedia page. By the way, Giant Snowman the picture that you refuse to look at shows Samuel himself wearing the cross, not his wife. I have a problem with obviously incorrect information on Wikipedia. I am not proposing any affirmative sentence regarding Samuel's non-Jewishness. There are hundreds of Jewish footballers that aren't on this list. I think I have -- at the very least -- caused sufficient doubt that he not be affirmatively listed as Jewish. Most of all, let me reiterate, because a non-news story is not a reliable source just because it appears on the Haaretz web site. Everything else I linked is just gravy. Although as a Jew, I would not simply dismiss as irrelevant the fact that his mother clutches the virgin or that he was married in a catholic ceremony. Please also note that the linked source that supposedly proves that Samuel is Jewish is that "his parents are Jewish." So something that refutes that would indeed appear to be relevant. Dawindler (talk) 00:41, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If you're not happy with that source what about this and this and this? Giant Snowman 09:29, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, GiantSnowman for those links and for the opportunity to research Wikipedia's policies more at length. I apologize if my tone here or elsewhere was disrespectful. I was aware of those sources, and I'm aware that there is a large quantity of sources going far back to almost Samuel's professional debut listing him as Jewish. I take issue with the quality of the sources, not the quantity. Using the language of wikipedia guidelines, which I am newly familiar with (although of course subject to my misunderstanding), with regard to your first and third links (Australian Jewish News and the Jewish Chronicle), without meaning any disrespect towards their publications, I am unclear whether they constitute "mainstream newspapers" WP:SOURCE or "well-established news outlets" WP:NEWSORG. To the extent that they are, these articles do not appear to be "news reporting" WP:NEWSORG but actually tertiary content. "Some material published in general news sources (which are usually secondary) is actually tertiary, such as topical overview articles that summarize publicly-available information without adding any investigation or analysis, and sidebars of unsourced statistics or other factoids. WP:ITSTERTIARY I note that the Australian Jewish News article which states that Samuel was "[b]orn in 1978 and raised by a single Jewish mother," is quite similar to how the [Walter Samuel Wikipedia Article on the date of the article's publication] read, leading to a suspicion of circular sourcing. WP:CIRC. With regard to the Jerusalem Post article, although (like Haaretz) I cannot dispute that actual news stories in the Jerusalem Post would generally constitute reliable sources (since it is a mainstream, well-established news outlet), this article does not constitute "news reporting" WP:NEWSORG. As the title of the article implies ("Mystic Soccer") it appears to be some divinical Jewish analysis with some numerology thrown in of Argentina's prospects at the 2010 World Cup. According to the article itself, the author's previous articles included “A biblical boost for Argentina’s World Cup hopes?” and “Lionel Messi, kabbalistic messenger?” "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." WP:NEWSORG. In any case, the entire discussion of Samuel in this Jerusalem Post article is" Samuel was born Walter Lucano and brought up by a single Jewish mother. As a teenager, Lucano decided to adopt the family name of his stepfather, Samuel." In two sentences, the author manages to get Samuel's birth name wrong (it is Luján, not Lucano) and state that he was "brought up by a single Jewish mother" despite the fact that his step-father helped bring him up from the age of 4. The fact that he even had a step-father contradicts the earlier claim that the mother was single. So the fact that so much was bundled in two sentences would appear to contradict the notion that this article was subject to the Jerusalem Post's fact-checking guidelines presumably applicable to actual news reporting. WP:NEWSORG Although I'm picking on Samuel here, I think the same criticisms can be leveled at a lot of the inclusions in this list, especially the non-English or American ones. Actual news reporting is generally based on their work as footballers, not their religions, and even with regard to primary source interviews, they don't often talk about private matters. Moreover, in the case of someone like Samuel, most reliable sources on this type of information are likely to be in Spanish (the language of his country of origin) or Italian (where he spent the bulk of his career), and this being the English Wikipedia page, it would be difficult to come across. But it appears that the burden is on those to wish to include content, rather than those who wish to exclude it: "If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." WP:RS. "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." WP:ONUS. Respectfully, Dawindler (talk) 08:51, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Dawindler I don't care whether he is listed or not, so please note I that am impartial. I have even proposed this list once for deletion as an intersection too far, but consensus was against that. All I care about is actually consensus. I may not care about your raising doubts because, by definition, those doubts are WP:OR. This leaves us looking at WP:BURDEN, which is, broadly, upon the including editor to prove. Interestingly, since you are also looking to prove he is not Jewish, I think the burden also extends to you.

Rather than fight about it, is there a possibility that you can both work together to prove or disprove both sides of this? Emotive phrasing in both sides of this divide leads to anger when we ought to be building an encyclopaedia. Fiddle Faddle 10:26, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Timrent. I'm sorry that you feel that I'm "fighting" about this or that I have somehow doubted your or anyone else's "partiality" on this. For the record, I do not believe that anyone here is part of any conspiracy to incorrectly list Walter Samuel as Jewish, I'm just attempting (through what I believe to be the proper channels) to foster discussion about Samuel's inclusion in this list and also more generally the type and quality of sources that should be relied upon. To the extent that any "emotive phrasing" has been interpreted as disrespectful I apologize. Thanks also for the links re wikipedia policies. You say my doubts are WP:OR, but according to the link you provide, "This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages." As I have said above, I have not proposed any WP:OR for inclusion in any Wikipedia article. All I ask is for the linked sources to pass muster as reliable sources per wikipedia guidelines. With regard to the primary sources that I linked to on this talk page (the picture of Samuel wearing the cross, the interview with the catholic priest who claims to have officiated at Samuel's wedding, and the quote from Samuel's mother who claims that she clutches a figurine of the Virgin Mary when she watches games), I am now (more) aware of Wikipedia's preference for secondary rather than primary sources. I'm also aware that my logical leap from Samuel's mum clutching the Virgin Statue + Samuel was married in a Catholic ceremony + Walter Samuel wearing a cross on his necklace = Walter Samuel is not Jewish is impermissible original research, but only if I proposed to include this in an actual Wikipedia article. What is not covered in the Wikipedia guidelines is whether these primary sources and the inferences that one takes from them (original research in Wikipedia-speak) may be the basis for demanding a higher quality of reliable source than would otherwise be required. To use your analogy, if original research says that black is black, in order to determine reliability, should we require a very high quality source that states that "white is black?" I also note that before I was at all involved with the issue of Walter Samuel's jewishness, or lack thereof on Wikipedia, and before any Catholic marriages, crosses, or Virgin Mary statues were mentioned, the curators of the Walter Samuel article on Wikipedia reached consensus that his Jewishness (ethnicity, religion, what-have-you) should not be included on the page. (it was subsequently again included despite this consensus, which is when I took it out again.) I'm unclear from the Wikipedia guidelines whether consistency within Wikipedia itself is any sort of policy. With respect to who has the burden, it appears from my reading of the Wikipedia guidelines that the burden is on those seeking to include content, rather than exclude it. "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content." WP:ONUS Best, Dawindler (talk) 09:20, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Crikey, Dawindler, that was rather a long parcel of material. I am sure, now, that you are not fighting. I was not sure previously. Thank you for not fighting. More progress is always made with quiet calmness.

Wikipedia is never consistent, only consensus based. Your job is to influence that consensus, and to seek to build it for your arguments, but, and this is fundamental, to accept it when you disagree with it. An example is that I think this article is inappropriate, have said so clearly at WP:AFD, and consensus has formed against my view. I accept that because that is the way of Wikipedia. In fact that is why it is on my watchlist. I forgot to remove it!

What I suggest you do is start again, first without proposing that the gentleman be removed. Marshall your facts with sources that pass WP:42 of his non Jewishness. When you have them, set them out dispassionately and briefly, in a new section, perhaps a subsection, and throw the discussion open. Your facts have to be appropriate for a WP:BLP as do the facts from those who oppose your view., and this must be a fact based discussion.

If you feel an insufficient number of people are contributing to the discussion you may make it a WP:RFC, as may any editor in good standing. It is wisest to be even handed if you choose this route. We do not choose it when insufficient opinions back our own. We choose it when we feel, genuinely, that further opinions will achieve a better consensus whichever way it goes.

Beware WP:TL;DR in any arguments. Brevity and facts win over length. Also do not argue against each individual point made by others. If their or your point is incorrect others will see and note it. Be one of the good guys.

If you are my grandmother and I am teaching you to suck eggs, please accept my apologies. I am being careful not comment on the validity or otherwise of your or GiantSnowman's opinions. It is the discussion that interests me here, not the outcome. Fiddle Faddle 09:46, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I'm concerned this is a very simple matter. There are numerous sources which state Samuel is Jewish, and none which say he isn't. That's all we need - a reliable source confirming reports of his Jewishness are an error. Giant Snowman 09:50, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I didn't come across any guidelines stating that the number of sources stating something is relevant, if all of those sources fail the indicia of reliability cited above. These sources may be using the same incorrect source or each other to reach their conclusions. But if you (and/or others) are convinced that these are reliable sources, even though I do not see any defense of their reliability in light of the WP:NEWSORG and WP:ITSTERTIARY cited above (among others) and in light of the WP:ONUS guideline, I defer to you. Thanks again for this engaging discussion. Dawindler (talk) 18:09, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Haim Revivo

I think you should add Haim Revivo to this list, as he is one of the best players ever from Israel, and probably one of the best known Jewish players in Spain (where I am from) and some other European countries.

@11koyo11: if you have a reliable source which confirms he is Jewish then we can add him... Giant Snowman 19:52, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman: the English wikipedia article with his name says "Haim Revivo was born to a traditional Mizrahi Jewish family in Ashdod" and provides a reference to a Yedioth Ahronoth article, which is a reliable Israeli newspaper, but the article is in Hebrew so I can't confirm whether it mentions such information or not. By the way, a well-known anecdote when he was playing in Spain tells us that his team, Celta de Vigo, asked to play their game versus Betis an hour earlier so as to allow Revivo to enjoy the Yom Kippur festivity. Here's a reference in The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2010/sep/20/five-things-learned-premier-league

Done Giant Snowman 09:16, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Couple of players

Ronny Rosenthal, Yossi Benayoun, Tal Ben Haim, Tamir Cohen, Ben Sahar, Yaniv Katan. These guys are Jewish and played in top flight English football who are missing yep, this list could get over populated fast. There are loads of Jewish players not added that I know of. Govvy (talk) 21:15, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bela Guttman

I guess this list isn't suppose to be complete but even so it seems strange that Bela Guttmann isn't on it, any reason why? Tnapoles (talk) 22:48, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] "Schaffer, Alfred 'Spezi'". Jews In Sports. Retrieved 14 October 2009.

[2] "Schaffer, Alfred 'Spezi'". Jews In Sports. Retrieved 14 October 2009.

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