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Talk:Libingan ng mga Bayani

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Move discussion in progress

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Heroes' Cemetery (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 01:34, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:15, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IPA typo

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It should be [ba'ja:ni] since ⟨y⟩ in Tagalog represents /j/. BoomerBoxer (talk) 10:15, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 November 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) CMD (talk) 03:22, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Libingan ng mga Bayani → Heroes' Cemetery (Philippines) – This requested move may reverse a page move request that I actually initiated roughly four years ago. From the fallout of the Wikimedia Commons discussion concerning this specific cemetery, it was concluded that English is the default language. English Wikipedia has far stronger emphasis on the use of English names as the preferred language for article titles, as per Talk:Quebec/Archive 8#Requested move (Quebec vs. Québec), reiterating WP:USEENGLISH which states "This is the English Wikipedia. Article titles should be written in English."

Several English-language sources outside the Philippines use "Heroes' Cemetery", such as:

As English Wikipedia serves all international readers and not just Filipino readers, it is fitting to reverse my 2020 move request and reinstate the use of English-language name of the cemetery, which is being used by these English-language non-Filipino news agencies and outlets. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 04:40, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Death, Tambayan Philippines, WikiProject Military history, and WikiProject Cemeteries have been notified of this discussion. HueMan1 (talk) 11:24, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and edit. Aside from arguments in previous discussions that have reiterated WP:COMMONNAME, Heroes' Cemetery is used as an unofficial (since it is not dictated by official sources) English translation of the name. To use that as the name would be implying that other articles like Batasang Pambansa Complex should be renamed to "National Legislature Complex" or Lupang Hinirang should be renamed to "Chosen Land" just because it needs to be in English. Also, some local media outlets use both terms interchangeably as appositions where they use the official "Libingan ng mga Bayani" and refer to it as a "heroes' cemetery", as in the case of these articles from GMA, Philstar, and Rappler. It would be better instead for the Libingan ng mga Bayani article to mention in its lead section that it is also referred to as the "Heroes' Cemetery". This will allow readers of articles that call it as such to identify it as one and the same without jeopardizing the widely known and commonly understood name of the place.
Ganmatthew (talk • contribs) 13:00, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Howard the Duck, I obviously need to expand upon the reasons for my vote. Since it is apparent that you and the nominator have been editing Wikipedia for a number of years and have evident expertise on subjects related to the Philippines, your divergence of view leads me to arrive at conclusions based upon the presented facts.
As for my comment regarding the English-speaking world, it was specifically referencing countries where English is the native language as well as the primary language of the country's population. Thus, to present a distinct example, only a tiny percentage of cinematic productions and drama TV series in the Philippines (and in the world's most-populous English-speaking country, India) are produced in English (Category:English-language Philippine films).
On this point, English-language newspapers in countries where English is not the native language, as well as the primary language of the majority of the country's population, may not reflect common references in the English-speaking world. For instance, Ukraine's English-language newspapers, Kyiv Post and Kyiv Independent have been always using Ukrainian city names "Kyiv" and "Odesa", but the English-speaking world only fully stopped using those cities' Russian names "Kiev" and "Odessa" when the Russo-Ukrainian war erupted.
Furthermore, Turkey's English-language newspapers call the country "Türkiye", but in the English-speaking world, it is still referenced as "Turkey". English-language newspapers in the Portuguese-speaking world refer to "Timor Leste", but in the English-speaking world, it is still "East Timor". English-language media in the French-speaking world uses the country name "Côte d'Ivoire", but in the English-speaking world, it remains as "Ivory Coast", etc. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:16, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is obviously just my opinion, but I think the examples given (Kiev [pre-2022], Turkey, East Timor, Ivory Coast) are an apples/oranges comparison with LnmB. Sure, both are fruits just like capital cities, countries, and cemeteries are all places, but capital cities and countries generate significantly far more numerous English-language coverage outside the home country than do cemeteries.
Additionally, if we are to discount "Libingan ng mga Bayani" as an English name (which I disagree with because Philippine English is a thing), "Heroes['] Cemetery" is no more prevalent as an English name than the alternative "Cemetery of [the] Heroes", so there is still the question of which pure-English article title to use. (Both forms, with or without the apostrophe or the definite article, are basically just translations of the original name.) Just to give several examples of the latter name ("Cemetery of [the] Heroes") in sources: [GMA News][New York Times 1][New York Times 2][Seattle Times][Aljazeera][The Straits Times][Christian Science Monitor][Find a Grave][The Economist]. —seav (talk) 19:56, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Also as per MOS:TIES. This is the national heroes' cemetery. Notice how I use smallcaps. Libingan ng mga Bayani IS in English (Philippine English), the proper noun for the place. Used in a country where the national broadsheets and media outlets virtually all have English-language platform and where English is an official language. By the same logic we should rename Taoiseach to Prime Minister of Ireland then. Frankly this is just an attempt to force a proper English "translation" when there is none needed. Philippine English is a valid form of EnglishHariboneagle927 (talk) 08:48, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Point of order. Filipinos here saying "Libingan ng mga Bayani" is English, or Philippine English. Let's not say that. It is in the Tagalog language. It's not English as "San Francisco" or "Fianna Fáil", but you won't see Roman Spinner or JWilz12345 create WP:RMs for both of those articles. JWilz12345 has cited WP:UE as the policy-based reasoning for the move, and again, WP:UE is one of the most misunderstood guidelines. As established in Talk:Liga ng mga Barangay#Requested move 1 April 2022, WP:UE refers to whatever name is the most commonly used amongst English language sources, irrespective if the term itself is English, Philippine English, native English, Swahili, Tausug or Martian. "Libingan ng mga Bayani" is the most common name for this cemetery in English language sources. Foreign media, in the rare chance they report something about this cemetery, panders to their local audience and translates non-English terms such as this; Philippine media reports about this cemetery year round. A great majority of Philippine media that qualifies for WP:RS is in English. There's almost no exception that the non-English term "Libingan ng mga Bayani" is used by Philippine media to refer to this cemetery in the English language. No translations are used; this is not like "Day of Valor" where they do translate "Araw ng Kagitingan". In a great majority of English language sources in the Philippines, which reports about this cemetery all year, "Libingan ng mga Bayani" is the term almost exclusively used. It's not even a contest. FWIW, I would have been okay if "Heroes' Cemetery" is actually in use, in the real world, like "Day of Valor" (vs. "Araw ng Kagitingan"), but it absolutely truly is not at all. I would guess it's original name "Republic Memorial Cemetery" has more real world use than that transliteration. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:02, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Additional comment. Also, at the nomination above, it is said that WP:USEENGLISH states "This is the English Wikipedia. Article titles should be written in English."... but currently it states "This is the English Wikipedia. Article titles should match English-language reliable sources'." (emphasis mine). Maybe someone changed it or another guideline should have been linked, but my quoted "in a nutshell" summary is what I knew on how this guideline is supposed to be understood. Because, seriously, someone WP:RM "San Francisco" to "St. Francis" if that's the case LOL. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:02, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Howard the Duck and yet only Seav and I gave insights in the debate on Wikimedia Commons concerning c:Category:Heroes' Cemetery in the Philippines. No other Pinoy user commented, which resulted in that category being moved to the widely-accepted English name. I assume you didn't read the whole discussion there (for direct link: c:COM:Commons:Village pump/Archive/2024/08#Is renaming categories with an English name to local language names a good idea?). The default language on Wikimedia Commons may be English (as Broichmore claimed in the Commons debate), but it has been considered as a multilingual project and names in other languages can be honored (as per Donald Trung and Jmabel). Since the "English as a default language on Commons" rationale prevailed in the case of this cemetery, the article on English Wikipedia should also be moved to the English name as per stronger emphasis on the use of English name on English Wikipedia.
    The San Francisco example you gave is flawed. No one calls it "St. Francis" city. The Californian city has no such variant name, unlike this cemetery which has three names: "Libingan ng mga Bayani", "Heroes' Cemetery", and "Cemetery of the Heroes". JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 01:27, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I have no idea of any discussion on Commons about this, nor should I care, nor houldit have any difference on how concepts are named in any other Wikimedia project.s
    FWIW, your last statement would be valid if it is actually used in real life. As observed by Hariboneagle927, foreign media you cited merely translated the Tagalog proper name for the benefit of their local audiences. It's like foreigners referring to kare-kare as "oxtail stew in peanut curry"; it does not mean the actual name of the dish is "oxtail stew in peanut curry". The name is still kare-kare. Or tikka masala. Or baguettes. It was not an actual proper name, but a transliteration to a descriptive name. Howard the Duck (talk) 02:40, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Anyways, MOS:TIES applies. Just because we can't expect readers to realize what "Libingan ng mga Bayani" is at a glance like how Taoiseach is Prime Minister of Ireland is that we should force a "purer" English name. Just as FIFA isnt International Federation of Association Football or Bundestag is the Parliament of Germany. Or for a non-western example from an English-speaking country India Lok Sabha, not "House of the People".Hariboneagle927 (talk) 05:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The two main rationales of the current move proposal do not support a move back to what is nothing more than an ad-hoc translation of the WP:COMMONNAME in English-language sources. First, WP:USEENGLISH should not be reduced to its summary when it states in more detail that "where there is an English word or an exonym for the subject but a native version is more common in English-language usage, the English name should be mentioned but should not be used as the article title". So the summary "Article titles should be written in English" comes with a crystal clear BUT. Second, mere listing of attestions are not sufficient to establish the common name. In the move discussion four years ago, we had some actual metrics that showed the prevelance of the current title in English-language sources. Note especially that in the list by the OP, nine out of fourteen are derived from the same AP report, so it boils down to only six independent attestions—the sheer number is utterly unconvincing. As for the Commons discussion: we're not bound at all to community decisions there when they cannot be backed up by policy-based arguments and real-world metrics in English WP.
When it comes to User:Ganmatthew's proposal to expand the lead, I am open to it provided we can establish (based on attestations in a wide range of sources) that it is not just an ad-hoc translation (of which there are actually only two possibilities: "Heroes' Cemetery" or "Cemetery of (the) Heroes", but an established, but less widely used alternative name. –Austronesier (talk) 21:38, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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