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"limited"

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There's no need to have "Limited" in the name of this article or indeed of Libertas Institute. AndrewRT(Talk) 23:02, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seems the mentioning of "Limited" may be an attempt of negative spin. The movement generally labels itself as a movement, not a party, and the name used on their website is Libertas. --Sasper (talk) 04:15, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Libertas (political movement) (see discussion here) content is being moved to other pages following requests and the rollout of the navbox. Once that's done, the '(European movement)' disambiguator becomes redundant and I'll move Libertas (European movement) to Libertas Party. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 01:07, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
 Done}. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 23:24, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Staff with Belgian flags

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I find all the Belgian flags in the staff table misleading. Libertas may have premises in Brussels but that does not mean these people are working for Belgium. Even the European flag here might be misleading. Would it not be more sensible to present two tables, one with the party's central staff and the other for those involved in national campaigns? Or perhaps we should do away with the table altogether (as all the national stuff simply links to other articles) and use bullet points instead.-Ipigott (talk) 10:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • You have a point: Anita Kelly is working in Brussels (but the source is in Polish and I've forgotten where it is), Crosby is working in Brussels (but the source is a blog), I haven't got a clue where Trippi is (if indeed he ever left the States) and John McGuirk doesn't pop up often as Anita is namechecked most often as "the Libertas spokesperson" (is he still in Galway?).
  • I'll put something in like "Central staff: Bonde,Kelly,Trippi,McGuirk: for the staff in local branches/parties, see the articles at Malta,Poland,Ireland,UK,et al." But you just know somebody is going to pop along and say "...and Robin Matthews is the leader in the UK", thus vitiating the entire point. Sorry, I'm whining.
  • Incidentally, things are getting interesting in Poland. The Tusk govt is clamping down on media command staff appointed by the previous administration. One of these is a bigcheese at TVP, and said bigcheese is a fan of LPR. Now LPR want to depict themselves as Libertas folk (without actually adopting a common Libertas agenda) so Ganley gets (comparatively) a lot of airtime on Polska TV: twice one night last week - he's on more often than the weatherman. One of the TVR journalists, Hanna Lis, refused to host an interview with Ganley (editorial independence:"I am a noble journalist and how dare Mr Big order yet another Ganley interview?!" stuff), Libertas got miffed and put in a complaint, comedy ensues. And all the sources are in Polish. Oh God.
  • This pattern is recurring: Ganley arrives, cosies up to locals, locals go "Woo! Billionaire!" and latch on, Ganley tries to distance but - hey - he's in Ireland, they're in Poland/Czech Republic, they speak the local language, he doesn't, and they've got all the media contacts. Result? Local parties presenting themselves as Libertas affiliates without Ganley sanction or even against it. Endless fun, but very difficult to parse.
  • Germany might not make the deadline for registration (this Thursday, I think): they're short on signatures, unless they pull a Sweden and turn up five minutes before the deadline with a note from their mom/Notary Public saying "Yep we've got the signatures, honest: can't actually show you them but they're really there, trust me". Incidentally, Libertas might do quite well in Sweden.
  • The YouTube of the Libertas Nederland signing has gone AWOL: a pity, since I'd be able to see if Brom was the third person in the room when the papers got signed. Will have to look closer at the YouTubes of Bonde lecturing the interns at length, see if I can put some names to faces.
  • Yes I know I'm not supposed to use the talk pages to discuss the subject, but forgive me if I vent: puzzling this one out is quite the challenge. Everybody, pro- and anti-Ganleyites, has got a lot invested in depicting Ganley as a poweful billionaire imposing CIA-sanctioned disruption/accountability and democracy (delete as appropriate) on the European polity, but the truth is he's messing up bigstyle: deadlines missed, locals not behaving, rush, rush rush. And trying to keep track of sources in Swedish, Dutch, Polish, Czech is not funny.
  • Returning to your point <grin>. Will try to process your above re staff later today. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 13:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 23:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Libertas Latvia (Libertas Latvija, LL)

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Yep, there's another one: Libertas Latvia.

Points to note:

  • Common list, not local party (same setup as france), tho there is a Libertas Latvia Congress (central organizing committee, not party - again, same as France).
  • Affiliates are; Mūsu Zeme, Sociālā Taisnīguma partija, Pensionāru un senioru partija. Two of those don't even have an entry on the Latvian Wikipedia: ouch!
  • Head of organizing committee and head of list is Guntars Krasts. All the 'pedias have him down as a member of For Fatherland and Freedom/LNNK (Tēvzemei un Brīvībai/LNNK), but I think he left about a year ago. He is I think still a MEP.
  • Sources: [1] , [2] , [3] , [4] , [5]

Other points to note:

  • Most of the discussion concerning Libertas's stance have revolved about whether it's pro-European, Eurosceptic, or some other position on the Euronationalist/Eurofederalist/Euroneutral/Eurocritical/Eurorealist/Eurosceptic spectrum. Little attention has been focused on its political stance other than "Ew, aren't LPR far-right" (yes, they are - very right wing in fact) but that's not really precise enough: the European right wing is *very* wide - from atlanticists and christian democrats thru national conservatives, far-right nationalists, neo-fascists and unequivocal fascists. There is however a pattern emerging with Libertas: I think all its affilated parties are/were also affiliates/members of UEN and/or AEN. The demise of the national conservative UEN - the EP equivalent of the religious right - has been predicted for some time, squeezed as it is between EPP-ED and the pure nationalists. We may be seeing what's happening; its members are seeking safe haven under the Libertas umbrella, and Libertas is beginning to look like UEN-in-exile. Since Ganley is NatCon to his fingertips, this may make sense. Instead of jetting around Europe and getting his suit all messed up, he may have been best advised just to turn up at BrusBourg, wave fistfuls of Euros at UEN, yell "Come get it boys" and wait for the stampede. Woo, European politics in action.
  • I know nobody but me gets excited about this, but it looks like the 2009 election will be a realigning election: EPP-ED will split into the conservatives (atlanticist, ameriphile, free-marketeers) and the more regulationphile Christian Democrats, and I still say there's a possibility of a whacking great big ED/IND-DEM/Libertas clusterf*ck group come July, although the most probable is EPP on its own, ED for the atlanticists, and Libertas/UEN for the natcons, which would splinter the two-decade unification of the European Right. Who says politics is boring...

Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 00:54, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Libertas Estonia

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There is also a local party in Estonia.
Democrats - Estonian Democratic Party (Demokraadid - Eesti Demokraatlik Partei) changed it's name into Party of Libertas Estonia (Libertas Eesti Erakond).
Raskarnet (talk) 16:49, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of Libertas Estonia candidates for the 2009 European Parliament elections:
Jüri Heldur Estam
Jaanus Glaase
Mati Kõrts
Kristjan Pihus
Sean Thomas Donohoe
Jaan Laas

libertas.eu
libertas.ee
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.191.166.170 (talk) 20:09, 11 May 2009 (UTC) Raskarnet (talk) 07:33, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Today's roundup: your source for all things Libertasesque. Libertasy. Whatever.

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OK fact fans, today's roundup.

  • Libertas Germany were 500 signatures short and are not registered for the elections.
  • File under "WTF!?" Ganley hates Zelezny. But Klaus loves Zelezny, and the two ODS rebels Tlusty and Schwippel joined Zelezny's Libertas, not Ganley's Libertas. There's a press conference (yep, another one) on 2 April in which Tlusty, Schwippel and Zelezny will do the "Forward to the Glorious Future" thang. Ganley's Libertas, making a virtue out of necessity, put an entry on its website saying TS&Z are standing for a Libertas list (they are: but it's Zelezny's Libertas, not Ganley's Libertas). So presumably Zelezny's Libertas (Libertas.cz) is now an official Libertas.eu affiliate, and presumably Ganley's January renunciation of Zelezny is now all forgotten.
  • The National Resurrection Party wants to be the only party under the Lithuania common list, but Ganley's still looking for more parties. Question: is this a Libertas Lithuania list with Resurrection affiliated to it, or is it a Resurrection list with Libertas affiliated to it? We've seen this before: Zelezny's Libertas presented themselves for months as a Libertas affiliate despite Ganley disavowal, Mach still calls on Libertas to join them, and LPR still present as a Libertas affiliate without Ganley imprimatur. Here's the problem with local national parties: you can't fire them. Absent a strict chain of command and zero control over the local media, there is little Ganley can do to prevent a local national party presenting as a Libertas affiliate, regardless of whether Ganley wants them or not.
  • Thanks for the heads-up about Libertas Estonia. Oh God: another one. I'll try and write up ASAP. Now if I could only find out about Libertas Slovakia, Denmark, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Finland, Austria, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Cyprus, Belgium, Slovenia I'd be a happy bunny. Do you think Ganley knew there were twenty-seven countries in the EU when he started this shebang??!!

Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 02:44, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have the source to hand but I think the lists closed in Slovakia and Libertas were not on it but there were offers to various parties and they are on it. One very new party, Sloboda a Solidarita, may have formed to take advantage of Ganley's party (no source to hand). According to [6] Slovakia also got 250,000 in a similar manner to the Polish loan. But which one or all of these are the happy recipients?

Amongst the leading figures that Libertas met with in Bratislava are Mr. Jan Carnogursky, former Prime Minister of Slovakia, from the KDH party, Mr. Vladimir Palko, former Minister of Justice from the KDS party, Mr Peter Zajac, Mr Peter Osusky and Mr Ondrej Dostal from the OKS party, and Mr Richard Sulik, President of the Freedom and Solidarity party.[7] same as the Libertas site piece which is the source ? [8]

Do tretej ráno v Bratislave Ganley sedel aj s autorom daňovej reformy Richardom Sulíkom zo strany Sloboda a solidarita. „Dostali sme ponuku na spoluprácu, ktorú zvažujeme,“ povedal Sulík.

Sloboda a Solidarita considering the offer [9]

Richard Sulík on Gypsies plus some sort of translation here [10]

Plus here is Ganley's denial that he is funding the Polish party [11]which makes little sense given the confirmation from the Polish branch that this was happening, as you have noted. 


Catapla (talk) 04:01, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Libertas Slovakia: there's three of them!

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Yep, it's the Czech Republic all over again: multiple Libertases bouncing around

Kopecky's Libertas (Libertas Slovensko)

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  • 2009-03-20: EUDemocrats announce Peter Kopecky, vice president of the EUDemocrats and former Slovak Ambassador to Romania, is running in the list for the Slovakian Agrarian and Countryside Party, a party even the Slovaks haven't heard of.[12]

Sulik's Sloboda a solidarita (SaS)

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  • 2009-03-28: Richard Sulík formation of SaS [20], [21], address Čajakova 18, 811 05 Bratislava.[22]

Ganley's Libertas

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  • 2009-02-23:Ganley hits Bratislava [23], [24], talks to some people but nothing really happens and none of the major politicians are interested. Some of the minor ones are interested but Ganley's jetting round Europe like Kissinger on steroids. No official candidates announced.
  • 2009-03-27: Still no official Libertas candidates.[25]
  • 2009-03-31: Irish Times kicks off about Libertas Slovakia funding,[26] but fails to specify which Libertas Slovakia.

I'll try and work this up into an article, but unless Ganley actually stands up and says which Libertas is which, we won't know: it may turn into Czechia again, when he was forced to acknowledge Zelezny's Libertas, or even into Estonia, where there's a Libertas running around that Ganley's (presumably) never heard of. Incidentally, Peter Kopecky is a vice-president of EUDemocrats: just like Igor Grazin was. So is this Bonde poaching ex-colleagues, Kopecky electionsquatting, Ganley keeping up his sleeve for May, or what? What the hell is going on?

Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 01:34, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Stuff to do

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Libertas Latvia

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 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 01:22, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Expand Libertas Latvia to confirm that Libertas Latvia is a list, not a party.
 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 20:00, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Policies: differential VAT for renewable energy (against) [27]

Funding of Libertas (to replace Funding of Declan Ganley organizations pro tem)

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  • Chase up rumors about collateralized loan funding of Libertas Poland, Lithuania & Slovakia
[28] [29]

Libertas Lithuania

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 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 21:42, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Include Lauras Bielinis' resignation/sacking by Lithuania's President
 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 02:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Confirm that Libertas Lithuania is a list, not a party.

Libertas Slovakia

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 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 22:22, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Libertas Poland

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  • Chase up Hanna Lis/Libertas media exposure in Poland
 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 21:42, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Chase up Libertas Poland's origins as a renamed off-the-shelf party (see Newsweek Poland article)
 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 02:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wojciech Wierzynski, (the new head of LPR after Miroslaw Orzechowski resigned after his DUI incident), became the ex-head of LPR when he resigned 2009-04-19. LPR goes thru leaders like Spinal Tap drummers or Presidents on 24: (Roman Giertych until October 2007, then Sylwester Chruszcz, then Miroslaw Orzechowski, then Wojciech Wierzejski, now Arnold Masina as acting head). Why is this relevant? Because reportedly Wierzejski wants to devote his time to his two major projects: a) publishing and editing "Polityka Narodowa", and b) the unification of the patriotic, nationalist, conservative and Christian right under a Libertas list (Drugi, znacznie bardziej absorbujący czas i energię, to próba zjednoczenia środowisk patriotycznych, narodowych, konserwatywnych i chrześcijańskich przed wyborami do europarlamentu" - wyjaśnia na swoim blogu Arnold Masin. Dodaje, że zjednoczenie prawicy dokonało się pod sztandarem porozumienia programowego - Libertas. "Libertas to nie jest zwykła partia polityczna. To właśnie porozumienie programowe" - pisze Masin.). As you do. Sources: [30],[31], [32]
  • Holy cow - it's a right-wing clusterf***! The list that includes Libertas Polska will also include League of Polish Families (LPR), Naprzod Polsko-Piast (which is in itself an alliance of Forward Poland and another party), and two individual MEPs: Dariusz Grabowski and Zdzislaw Podkanski. Unsurprisingly, the latter two belong to Union for Europe of the Nations. Sources: [33][34]
  • Candidates:Artur Zawisza, Daniel Pawłowiec, Wojciech Wierzejski, Janusz Dobrosz, Dariusz Grabowski, Janusz Szewczak, Boguslaw Rogalski, Zdzisław Podkański, Janusz Wojciechowski.[35][36][37]. NEITHER COMMON LIST NOR CANDIDATES CONFIRMED UNTIL APRIL 28.
  • The common list may pass the 5% threshold for election: may have to revise Libertas's chances in Poland upwards.
  • Libertas still courting Law and Justice (PiS).[38]
  • Franciszek Michera, Wiktor Patrzała?[39]
 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 02:29, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Libertas France

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  • Given Paul-Marie Couteaux's renunciation of Libertas, is he still a member/signatory?
  • Chase up de Villiers et al.'s campaigning re: anti-Turkish accession post Obama's declaration.[40]
  • Polls: 5%[41]

Libertas Czechia

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  • Expand Libertas Czechia to include Zelezny's Libertas press launch and Ganley's unsupported claim on Zelezny's candidates - although given Zelezny's unsupported claim on the Libertas brand, seems only fair...:-) Try and work in Ganley's Prague twittering.
  • It looks like negotiations of joint lists for Mach & Zelezny have broken down:
[42], [43], [44]
  • Confirmation of Zelezny's candidates:
[45], [46]
  • Registered Czech parties
[47]
  • Libertas.cz drew list number 1:[48]
  • Here's a surprise: Libertas and/or SSO's poll numbers are 1%. May have to revise Libertas's chances in Czechia downwards:[49]

Libertas Party

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*Move to Libertas.eu?
  • Libertas's format is still over the place, but it's beginning to look like a pan-European party, so start changing format to match the other pan-European parties:
  • Expand position: member parties adhere to core accountability/transparency/democracy principles (feed in Libertas.eu website statement here) and bolt-on other policies as they feel appropriate (so list bolt-on positions), associate parties do what the f**k they like, observer parties (Nederland Transparent is the only Libertas observer: it can't legally run candidates) say nice things but do nothing else.
  • Need single at-a-glance table: MEPs before election (before June whatever), candidates at election (June whatever), candidates elected (June 14th?), MEPs at first constitutive session of the Parliament (July 21?), Groups chosen by MEPs (July 21-24?). Check dates.
  • Most visited polsite in Europe[50]
  • Details of Libertas corporate structure: Libertase erakond tegutseb 11 Euroopa Liidu riigis. Kõik Libertase erakonnad, sh Libertas Eesti Erakond on iseseisvad, kuid funktsioneerivad ühtsetel programmilistel alustel ning põhimõtetel.[51] Or, to put it another way, Libertas party operates in 11 European Union countries. All Libertas parties, including Libertas Eesti Erakond, are independent, but function in a uniform basis and the principles of programming.. So it's evolved into...well, the same as every other political party at European level, really: an inner core of member parties (11 in this case) who are obliged to adhere to common principles, an outer core of affiliate parties who aren't, and a scattering of individual members. In short, it's the antimatter twin of European Democratic Party, albeit with a bigger budget.

 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 23:53, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Libertas.eu

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  • Need single at-a-glance table: MEPs before election (before June whatever), candidates at election (June whatever), candidates elected (June 14th?), MEPs at first constitutive session of the Parliament (July 21?), Groups chosen by MEPs (July 21-24?). Check dates.
  • Most visited polsite in Europe[52]

Shelbourne hotel

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Libertas Netherlands

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Libertas United Kingdom

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  • Expand Libertas United Kingdom to account for announced candidates
  • Perpetual candidate Herbie Crossman is gonna be a UK Libertas candidate [56].
  • Initial signs are they're all London candidates (I think 8 have been named). Again, what's occurring? Why all candidates in just one constituency? Are there more squirreled away somewhere for the other UK constituencies?
Erm not sure I should say this but I'm sure no-one will mind: yes - launched in London with full list announced and other regions to come later! AndrewRT(Talk) 21:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • As good as your word, AndrewRT: L:NDIE press conference 24 April for East Midlands[57]
  • Matthews interview in "Spiked": he's thinking about what Libertas's policies should be beyond a reform agenda:[58]

Libertas Spain

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 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 00:11, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Expand to include the Robles/Rivera civil war that's been sparked off: Robles is now threatening to resign unless Rivera disavows: Rivera's spokesman says Robles is just using this as an excuse to let Robles resign himself. Sources:[59][60]
 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 02:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of Libertas list candidates at the 2009 European Parliament elections

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  • Create: quicker than spreading them all round twenty-odd countries? Include member state, member/affiliate/individual, votes (1st pref for STV: see Ireland). Would prevent having to write bios for each one.
 DoneAnameofmyveryown (talk) 15:54, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Political positions of Libertas lists at the 2009 European Parliament elections?

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  • Create: quicker than spreading them all round twenty-odd countries?

Libertas Ireland

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  • Sean O Neachtain's medically-forced retirement from Ireland North-West increases Ganley's election chances:[61]
  • Caroline Simons confirmed for Dublin.[62]
  • Policies: farming (pro)[63][64]
  • Party status: now registered as a political party in Ireland[65]  Done Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 00:55, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Naoise wants some "me" time and hopes they can still be friends. [66] [67] Declan never loved Naoise anyway.[68]. Handbags ensues.
  • Confirmation in print that Moyne Park, Tuam, Co. Galway is actually Declan's house.[69]

Libertas Malta

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Libertas Romania

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  • Missed deadline to create party:[72]

 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 01:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Congress I

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[73]

Libertas Portugal

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  • Hands up. Which party would you say was the least, least, least probable to affiliate with Libertas? Bet you never spotted this one: Movimento Partido da Terra[74]. One of the Portuguese Greens. My brain has now officially exploded.
 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 23:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, it's in the portuguese media that Libertas is currently funding MPT with 1.5 million euros! MPT is a very very small party, and apparently this deal was done by their current leader and Declan Ganley. It is indeed shocking that a left wing party has associated itself with a right wing movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.180.62.128 (talk) 20:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

89.180.62.128, if you have a link to the funding controversy, please post it here and I'll put it in when time becomes available. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 23:53, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Libertas Italy

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 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 22:55, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 22:55, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Libertas Germany

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  • In an edit above, I said:
"...The demise of the national conservative UEN - the EP equivalent of the religious right - has been predicted for some time, squeezed as it is between EPP-ED and the pure nationalists. We may be seeing what's happening; its members are seeking safe haven under the Libertas umbrella, and Libertas is beginning to look like UEN-in-exile. Since Ganley is NatCon to his fingertips, this may make sense. Instead of jetting around Europe and getting his suit all messed up, he may have been best advised just to turn up at BrusBourg, wave fistfuls of Euros at UEN, yell "Come get it boys" and wait for the stampede..."
  • On an entirely unconnected point, Libertas have entered into an alliance with the German AUF - Partei für Arbeit, Umwelt und Familie. Rather than spend all that time and energy trying to set up his own party in Germany (which unsurprisingly didn't work), Ganley has entered into an alliance with a pre-existing national conservative Christian-based German party. Much easier to do, no mess, no fuss, AUF whispers the magic phrase "accountabilitytransparencydemocracy", and - shazam! - Uncle Declan appears in a flash, grants them whatever they asked for for affiliation, Declan ticks the box marked "Germany", jets off back to Tuam, everybody's happy.
  • AUF's list,AUF confirming the affiliation, Libertas confirming the affiliation
  • Now I have to rewrite Libertas Germany. Three weeks to the election.
  • Oh, if anybody wants to employ me as an election adviser in 2014, I am staggeringly cheap.
 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 20:19, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Libertas Bulgaria

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 Done, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 22:31, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Libertas Slovakia

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  • The fun just keeps on coming: OKS and KDS have affiliated to Libertas. The Libertas announcement is here, the candidate list is here. It looks like the same as Germany: the affiliation came too late for the ballots to be changed. Libertas refer to the list as "Libertas-KDS-OKS", the ballots will show "Konzervatívni demokrati Slovenska - Občianska konzervatívna strana (kandidátska listina č. 9)" or some variant thereof. I'll chase up the candidate literature to see if they mention Libertas, although I suspect they'll have a spanking new website (blue background, Libertas arc-and-star, etc).
  • KDS kiss the ring here, OKS yet to officially announce. The candidate list is also here, handily broken down into who is KDS and who is OKS.
  • Incidentally, this meens that Sulik's SaS (list 2) and Kopecky's faux-Libertas (list 1) are out in the cold. Will update article accordingly.

 Done Anameofmyveryown (talk) 16:35, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Misc

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  • dVilliers/Ganley vendee meeting[76]

Anameofmyveryown (talk) 17:16, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Heading inserted for ease of edit

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Excellent work there Anameofmyveryown! What do you think of this template I've created: {{Libertas by country}}? AndrewRT(Talk) 21:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I like it: it's less cumbersome than {{Libertas topics}}. Any news on the remaining member states? I tried to track Ganley in Italy but Italian politics is famously fissiparous and the trail became non-Euclidean. We've got local Wikiexperts on Italian, Austrian and possibly Belgian politics but I'm loathe to bother them (we're all v.v.busy: fifty-odd days to election) and some EU countries are just wikiblackholes (Finland!). I figured Libertas wouldn't touch Denmark since that'd mean Bonde running (himself/others) against old friends, but after Sweden, I'm not so sure. I'm surprised at lack of info in Greece/Austria, since I'd figure Libertas'll do well there: right now my best guess are Libertas'll do OK in Sweden (Junilistan are afraid), well in Czech Republic and France, possibly Ireland, possibly Latvia, but badly in Poland (after the TVP thang, they might score negatively!). I can't begin to guess at its performance in Spain, Portugal, L'bourg, Lithuania, Estonia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Cyprus, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. If you want a good left-field bet for a Libertas surprise, Malta may provide (small constituency, so it'll either do very well or very badly). Irish Times keeps reporting >20 Libertas Czechia candidates, but I make it only three: any explanation for the discrepancy? As you can tell, any gossip you may have concerning Libertas in the other member states would be v.v.welcome. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 02:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Austria: Absolutely no news. Occasional press releases, but none of them contain any info besides "we've got some very promising candidates". Rumoured to have tried poaching Hans-Peter Martin or cooperating with the BZÖ, both without success. BTW, I find it very strange that Libertas -- who have always succeeded in allying with right-wing anti-Europeans so far -- have found support from the Citizens party (*anti-nationalist* and left-wing) in Spain...! —Nightstallion 23:26, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You were surprised. I was surprised. Now it turns out that Antonio Robles, Citizens's deputy in the Catalan Parliament was surprised as well. He gave an interview and went absolutely ballistic (es,en). Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk)
Hi, 'stallion, nice to hear from you again. I know what you mean - I did a double-take when I saw them. You could say that as a party that runs for a Catalan regional assembly whilst decrying Catalan regionalism, they wouldn't need to adjust their heads too much to fit in.
However, the explanation could be simpler: affiliate parties don't have to do much (in fact, absent any documentation about Libertas's internal structure and mechanisms for accepting/rejecting affiliates, they may not have to do anything) so from their POV it's a free gift: nod, smile, be nice to the nice Irish billionaire, wait 'til he flies out, then carry on as normal - they get free publicity, Declan ticks the box marked "Spain", everybody wins, and nobody in the Anglophone press knows or cares what happens thereafter. After all, that's exactly what happened in France and Malta <grin>. Compared to what happened in Czechia (where they nodded, smiled, created their own Libertas and kicked him out of his own party - next time Klaus comes round for tea and muffins, Declan's gonna count the spoons), Spain's gone quite well for Declan.
Conversely, it might be even simpler: they may just agree with what Declan says and want to support him. I know in the middle of all this kerfuffle, powergrabbing, machinations, positioning, claims, counter-claims, soapoperiness, etc, it's difficult to focus but, y'know...it is possible.
I remember when you had to do Austrian legislative election, 2008 from scratch virtually single handed, and I seem to have fallen into the same trap - God, do they all take so long? Why is every single bloody source in a different language? Sometimes even a different fricking alphabet (two words: Latvia. Cyrillic. Ouch. OK, three words.).
Will we be seeing you over at Political groups of the European Parliament come July? It'll be the usual bunfight, and we're already getting the "but I think the colors should be different" remarks - is it my fault UEN chose a lighter shade of blue than EPP-ED? <grin>
Still, back to work. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 20:43, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I'll certainly try to help when I can -- I've got your contributions (and those of Ssolbergj, The_Tom and a few others) on my watchlist, but if you think I'm missing something, just let me know. Keep up the good work! :) —Nightstallion 18:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Position

[edit]

First of all, congratulations Anameofmyveryown on the tremendous progress you have made on this complex article. I am, however, still a little concerned about the telegraphic lines on position. If you look at the reference, the party also puts forward some important core principles: the first, Hold the EU accountable, coincides with Accountability; the second, Full disclosure, might look like Transparency but is actually about the need for the Parliament and the Commission to publish all expenses; the third, Save money, goes beyond the current position items; the fourth Have your say is closely linked to the Lisbon Treaty and Democracy but is specific on the need for referendums on the constitution; the fifth, A lean EU, duplicates Save money to some extent but also calls for a 50% reduction in the number of EU meetings. Would it not be useful to add a word on these priorities? Or are we still waiting for the party to publish a detailed manifesto??? Ipigott (talk) 09:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See response below. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 03:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Immigration and Emigration
Their immigration position is the most important one at the moment. The plan to restrict all EU people to a two year maximum stay in any one country.Pan-European party with policies that are far from pan-European, Irish Times Tuesday, May 19, 2009This seems to be the only policy that has any substance to it. Catapla (talk) 11:23, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
See response below. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 03:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Position

[edit]

On a political party's page it should state political positions, and if possible examples that back up their position on an issue. Libertas has published little detail about their positions and there are no examples to use. However, this cannot be used as an excuse to write about anything else under "Position". The "Position" page should therefore remain short and just sum up Libertas' stated policies without examples until a programme is released or examples are found. --QuotationMan (talk) 12:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See response below. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 03:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Commonality with other Declan Ganley organisations

[edit]

It is ok to write that Libertas has connections to other Ganley organisations, but you cannot write things like: Commonality has been noted. This is a clear weasel and must be deleted. --QuotationMan (talk) 12:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Responses to above

[edit]
  • Thank you for your comments above:every little helps. Addressing your contention that "...The "Position" page should therefore remain short...", and your concomitant edits paring that section down to a snapshot of its present position: that contention is difficult to sustain - Libertas, just like every other party, does not exist in an eternal present. It has a past, a present, and will probably have a future. Consequently, its policies will grow and evolve in the normal fashion, and sources will track this process, and we will put them down here as and when they present themselves.
  • Additionally, regarding your edit procedure, your edits have resulted in ref problems: this edit left orphaned ref anchors, this edit and this edit just removed the orphaned ref anchor when it would have been better practice to reinsert. I have corrected these.
  • Now that you're here, there are many outstanding tasks. Libertas Hungary, Libertas Cyprus, Libertas Denmark, Libertas Austria, Libertas Belgium, Libertas Finland, Libertas Luxembourg all need to be written. List of Libertas list candidates at the 2009 European Parliament elections badly needs expanding: Libertas cites 600+ candidates, but we only have the names of +100. Checklist is below.
  • Thank you for your kind words. I have inserted Libertas's concrete policies as requested via this edit [77]. You will want to reinsert them should they be removed.
  • On an entirely unconnected point, you give me a barnstar by adding one to my talk page like this or this. Not like I'm fishing or anything...:-).
  • On a more serious point, can you keep a weather eye out for the manifesto publication? I just know they'll leave it 'til the last minute.
Thanks for following up on this. There seems to be a problem with the two "see also" articles in this section. Perhaps they existed at the time of the update but they are no longer there.-Ipigott (talk) 09:23, 21 May 2009 (UTC) [reply]
No problem. (Barnstar?). On a more serious point, the articles Political positions of Libertas list candidates at the 2009 European Parliament elections and Political positions of Libertas affiliate parties at the 2009 European Parliament elections are redlinked because I haven't written them yet: a redlink on Wikipedia acts as a reminder to editors that an article needs to be written, and is not a problem per se. However, I do take your point that they may be confusing and will remove the redlinks on the next update.
 Done Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 00:50, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've stripped off and summarised the table below from http://www.euprofiler.eu, which is more fun than a bucketful of soapy frogs. I've also found various sources for some of the affiliates, as follows:
So I should be able to integrate the table below, strip of the relevant data from the sources above, draw up a Hix-Lord model, and get Political positions of Libertas lists, members and affiliates at the 2009 European Parliament elections done by 02:00 UTC 2 June 2009. Bear in mind that some of the affiliates are so small/new there is no info on them.
<Summary table redacted for clarity>
<Hix-Lord diagram redacted for clarity>
Hix-Lord diagram done. It depicts positions at May 29 2009 of Libertas Ireland (LI), Mouvement pour la France (MPF), Chasse, Peche, Nature, Traditions (CPNT), Libertas Poland (LP), Partido da Terra (MPT), Ciudadanos-Partido de la Ciudadanía (C) on a Hix-Lord diagram (Europhiles at the top, Eurosceptics at the bottom, Economically left-wing to the left, Economically right-wing to the right). Positions derived from http://www.euprofiler.eu/page/1 .
 Done Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 00:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The edit wars that seem to be breaking out have been distracting and make it difficult to focus, so given the time constraints (<14 days to election) it now seems unlikely that Political positions of Libertas list candidates at the 2009 European Parliament elections will be done before the election, unless people start coming up with sources right now. I may be able to get Political positions of Libertas affiliate parties at the 2009 European Parliament elections done in time, since that's theoretically simpler: there's been some academic work done on the classification of pan-European issues and I should be able to map the latter onto the former.
 Done Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 00:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you do know anything about Libertas Hungary, Libertas Cyprus, Libertas Denmark, Libertas Austria, Libertas Belgium, Libertas Finland, Libertas Luxembourg then please say and I'll try to get them done in time, although take care: I got fooled by a faux-Libertas in Libertas Bulgaria, and I'm keen for that not to happen again. The second convention is scheduled for June 1st (Paris/Gdańsk) and I should get that and the first convention reinserted in time. If the manifesto is published before the election, I'll try to get that in too. We still have massive holes in coverage (see below) and given the time constraints I cannot commit to getting all the holes plugged in time, although I can promise you I will try to do some of them. Apologies. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 12:54, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your source regarding Libertas's proposed "blue card". I have been giving some thought as to how to collate Libertas candidate positions. I originally envisaged the article Political positions of Libertas lists at the 2009 European Parliament elections as per Political positions of Hillary Rodham Clinton, but given the number of candidates, that may be implausible in the timeframe. Instead, may I ask you to gather sources and insert them into the checklist below? I've started you off with your Irish Times citation above. Don't cherry-pick: you won't have the time. Instead, try and grab one (pref more) from each member state in which Libertas candidates are running: that's not a random sample, but given the preponderance of coverage is given to heads of lists, and heads of lists are usually representative of the party, it may be a representative one.

Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 03:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there is also contradictions re Common Agricultural Policy with Libertas Ireland saying it is a weapon of mass destruction and Libertas MPF/France saying milk quotas are good. I will get some sources later. Catapla (talk) 09:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Checklist

[edit]
Member state Article
created? 		Candidates on
candidate article? 		Sources for
Political positions
of listees?
Austria Yes n/a
Belgium No No
Bulgaria Yes n/a n/a
Cyprus No No
Czech Republic Yes Yes
Denmark No No
Estonia Yes Yes
Finland No No
France Yes Yes
Greece Yes Yes
Germany Yes Yes
Hungary Yes n/a
Ireland Yes Yes [78]
Italy Yes Yes
Latvia Yes Yes
Lithuania Yes Yes
Luxembourg No No
Malta Yes Yes
Netherlands Yes Yes
Poland Yes Yes [79]
Portugal Yes Yes
Romania Yes n/a n/a
Slovakia Yes Yes
Slovenia No No
Spain Yes Yes
Sweden Yes Yes
United Kingdom Yes Yes

Anameofmyveryown (talk) 20:42, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Funding

[edit]

I believe it is important that a short section detailing the publicly declared funding of political parties is important. I believe the same is true here. However, I wish to seek consensus before I go ahead and add the page, as certain libertas members have recently been deleting sourced, reputable content and I do not wish to be constantly adding the same facts again. Truthinirishpolitics (talk) 13:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking seriously, I have two objections as follows:
  • Such sections are rare: I've just looked thru the Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour Party, Green Party, Sinn Féin and Progressive Democrats articles and the only one that has such a section is Fianna Fáil, and - yes! - that section has a POV tag.
  • It'll become a POV battleground instantaneously and we've got enough problems as is.
However, a solution presents itself. If an article called Funding of Libertas is created, then it can all go there, we can link to it from this article, and will (heartfelt plea) hopefully leave this article relatively revert free. It will also bridge past the awkward point that Libertas Institute and Libertas.eu are legally separate, and save us having to spread the same info across several articles. You can move the Funding section from Libertas Institute into it.
Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 01:50, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We interrupt your regular program to bring you this news flash

[edit]

Sweden. One of the "June List" countries. Quiet centre of the Northern European Eurosceptic (Eurorealist in this case) heartlands, in contradistinction to the harder British/Czech/Austrian variety. It's one of the countries where Libertas have the opposition genuinely worried. Nothing could go wrong, right?

Wrong.

Libertas Sweden have just been forced to withdraw, citing the cost of printing ballots as the reason.swen To be fair, given 6000 polling stations, the cost of printing and transporting them is non-trivial.

Will update Libertas Sweden and Libertas.eu accordingly later.

 Done, regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 00:51, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lithuania. What's happening?

[edit]
  • Lithuania. March 31, press conference: Libertas to run candidates Eugenija Sutkiene and Lauras Bielinis alongside Tautos Prisikėlimo Partija (TPP) candidates. OK, fine, no problem: same setup as Spain, Czechia, Poland, et al: a sprinkling of Libertas individual members on the list of a larger affiliate, right now that's the way Libertas works these days. Fine.
  • Er, just one problem. The Lithuania lists are out, and Sutkiene and Bielinis aren't on them [80].
  • I've looked at TPP's website, and there's no pledge of affiliation, no "We are proud to stand alongside Libertas", no mention of Libertas, no mention of Declan, no Libertas logo, no nothing. Even the March 31st press conference is missing from their website.
  • So here's the question: is TPP (still) a Libertas affiliate?

Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 03:08, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The candidate lists are out!

[edit]

Initial reactions

[edit]

Libertas have (finally!) published a list of their candidates! Frabjous day! Initial reactions:

  • Lithuania's not there: no surprise given the above
  • Italy's disappeared! Italy! I thought that one was a done deal! What happened there? Will pass it past wiki Italy politics experts to see what they say.

Will cross ref Libertas's list of list candidates with List of Libertas list candidates at the 2009 European Parliament elections, see how they compare. I suspect they're counting alternates as candidates, which is how they get 600+. Will update this article and List of Libertas list candidates at the 2009 European Parliament elections later in the day. Woot! Woot!

Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 12:57, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How well did we do?

[edit]
Country Libertas's count Wikicount Notes
Czech Republic 29 29  Done
Estonia 6 6  Done
France 147 147  Done
Germany 22 11 WTF?
I pulled the candidate details from the Bundeswahlleiter website, that can't be wrong.
Have Libertas affiliated with somebody else? Will check ASAP.


Have now checked. Libertas are counting their German alternates (ersatzbewerber) - people who step in if the elected candidate dies or otherwise can't make it - as candidates (bewerber). Compare this to this.

Greece 22 22  Done
Ireland 3 3  Done
Latvia 8 8  Done
Malta 1 1  Done
Netherlands 24 24  Done
Poland 128 128  Done
Portugal 22 22  Done
Slovakia 13 13  Done
Spain 50 50  Done
UK 56 56  Done

So we nailed it in nine countries, got very close in three, and got France and Germany horribly wrong. Curate's egg. Will update accordingly. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 13:26, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On closer inspection, we got Germany right and Libertas got Germany wrong: they're counting alternates as candidates (see above). Given the kerfuffle of the past few days, we know that blogs get info from Wikipedia (people read Wikipedia and get info from it: who knew?) so if anybody from Libertas is reading this: guys, correct your Germany candidate list please, huh? Alternates aren't candidates. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 14:19, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
elections.interieur.gouv.fr figures reconciled with Libertas figures. Rgds, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 22:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reconciled www.europeias2009.eu/portal/alias__PortalWeb/lang__pt-PT/tabID__3808/DesktopDefault.aspx with Libertas lists. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 22:30, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Benjamin Caradoc Tallis has resigned from Libertas.eu: see http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1116960_eu_hopeful_quits_party . Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 23:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kazimierz Czeslaw Wilk resigned from Libertas: see http://rs-naprzodpolsko.pl/page,1,5614525,aktualnosci.html and http://rs-naprzodpolsko.pl/page,0,1198593012,aktualnosci.html .Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 00:14, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To do list: Episode II: Attack of the lists

[edit]

Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 23:07, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Libertas.eu/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I believe it would be beneficial to introduce referenced criticism from reputable sources. Any criticisms that are posted about the party or anyone associated with it at the moment are removed instantly. That does not lead to a neutral article.

Last edited at 14:20, 20 May 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 15:15, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Break

[edit]

The talk page prior to 10 June 2009 is archived here. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 21:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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