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Citizenship/nationality revisited

Citizenship

I'm wondering why the source from George Magazine where he states 'I'm an Irish citizen.' is now deemed 'unreliable', while there is no source to suggest he has British citizenship? The source is unequivocal that he has Irish citizenship, and I don't see why it should be left out of the article for seemingly no reason. --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 00:25, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Mr Serious Guy, we've been over this – it's a pretty weak and unreliable source, and at least three editors said as much. Please refer to the "Irish citizenship" discussion above – it certainly hasn't been removed for "seemingly no reason". 4TheWynne(talk)(contribs) 01:35, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
They haven't actually given any reason why it's unreliable. One person essentially said "Neeson saying 'I'm an Irish hick' doesnt make him an Irish citizen", and while Liam did say that in the article, he also said outright "I'm an Irish citizen." There are no real reasons why this source is unreliable! --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 01:37, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
the article for Anthony Hopkins has him listed as 'Welsh' because he identifies as such. Why then are you not doing the same for Liam Neeson? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr Serious Guy (talk • contribs) 21:28, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
also there are no sources that state Neeson has British citizenship, while there is one that you refuse to allow me to add where he states that he does. --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 21:31, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
You need to find a stronger source (or two) – that was the whole point behind my (and everyone else's) argument. Forget about the other citizenships, and about other people's articles – if you want "Irish" included, focus on finding a different source. 4TheWynne(talk)(contribs) 23:49, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Why do I need to find another source? --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 00:04, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Yes, good question. Why is another source needed? There's nothing unreliable about him being directly quoted as saying he and his sons are Irish citizens. How often do we expect people to directly state what their citizenship(s) are before we are allowed to believe them? Nuclare (talk) 11:42, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Because that source is literally two decades old. WP:AGE MATTERS. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:15, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
How often do people change their citizenship? It's a source that DIRECTLY quotes him about citizenship in what was a short-lived but serious and credible magazine. Neeson was nearly 50 years old when that interview occurred -- What are you claiming changed citizenship-wise or is even likely to have changed between then and now? Seriously. Answer that. Answer all of it. Being someone who is actually interested in Liam Neeson (as opposed to only being interested in getting into battles on Wiki talk pages from about his citizenship), I remember in real time the interviews he did when he became a US citizen: He framed his becoming a US citizen in language of still being Irish. It's hilarious that under the guise of supposed Wiki policy the Irish part is the very part that has been scrubbed and protection put up lest "Irish" rear it's head in the page of a clearly and indisputably Irish person. I can't find anything that says articles automatically become unreliable after X number of years. Sure, you ideally want new sources and you don't want to use old when some changed/newer info. supercedes, but that's not the case here. And new sources aren't possible in all cases. If this page is going to be treated as a dumping ground of Neeson's citizenships (which I wouldn't have it be in the first place), than there is no good reason to leave Irish off. Nuclare (talk) 17:03, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
How often do people change their citizenship? At least once in 20 years, apparently? My understanding is that you can't become a US citizen without renouncing previous citizenships - see here and here, for example, though the whole area seems confusing. So yes, I would like a more recent reference. Regards, BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:19, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
It's not true that you have to renounce previous citizenships to be a US citizen. There was a time when it may have been technically true (although not enforced), but it was changed. (I'd point out that if it is true, it means he could no longer be a UK citizen, which would mean his Wiki page is wrong.) But, most centrally, I have found you a more recent source and in fact one in which Neeson very directly addresses the issue of dual citizenship (He says he knew he could keep his IRISH passport/citizenship). The source is "Alternative Ulsters: Conversations on Identity" by Mark Carruthers published April 1, 2014 by Liberties Press. Neeson is asked about keeping his Irishness in the U.S. and he is quoted: "I knew I could have dual citizenship. I didn't want to give up my Irish passport because that's what I am: I'm Irish." https://books.google.com/books?id=iKh8AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT264&lpg=PT264&dq=Alternative+Ulsters:+Conversations+on+Identity.+liam+neeson&source=bl&ots=sNOlpSDBzW&sig=bz3dzue--kfjriKc30dPoNsakwk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwixpcj-u7bfAhUCKa0KHf5sALAQ6AEwCXoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=Alternative%20Ulsters%3A%20Conversations%20on%20Identity.%20liam%20neeson&f=false Nuclare (talk) 17:43, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
And for the record, here is what Wiki says about "Age Matters": "Especially in scientific and academic fields, older sources may be inaccurate because new information has been brought to light, new theories proposed, or vocabulary changed. In areas like politics or fashion, laws or trends may make older claims incorrect. Be sure to check that older sources have not been superseded, especially if it is likely the new discoveries or developments have occurred in the last few years. In particular, newer sources are generally preferred in medicine. Sometimes sources are too new to use, such as with breaking news (where later reports might be more accurate), and primary sources which purport to debunk a long-standing consensus or introduce a new discovery (in which case awaiting studies that attempt to replicate the discovery might be a good idea, or reviews that validate the methods used to make the discovery). With regard to historical events, older reports (closer to the event, but not too close such that they are prone to the errors of breaking news) tend to have the most detail, and are less likely to have errors introduced by repeated copying and summarizing. However, newer secondary and tertiary sources may have done a better job of collecting more reports from primary sources and resolving conflicts, applying modern knowledge to correctly explain things that older sources could not have, or remaining free of bias that might affect sources written while any conflicts described were still active or strongly felt. Sources of any age may be prone to recentism, and this needs to be balanced out by careful editing." Nowhere in here does it say a source becomes unreliable simply because it's old or beyond some given age. So I ask again: Why is the "George" article unreliable? Nuclare (talk) 17:13, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
To put this in a clearer place--The more recent source requested to support Neeson being an Irish citizen has been found: It's "Alternative Ulsters: Conversations on Identity" by Mark Carruthers published April 1, 2014 by Liberties Press. Neeson is asked about keeping his Irishness in the U.S. and he is quoted: "I knew I could have dual citizenship. I didn't want to give up my Irish passport because that's what I am: I'm Irish." https://books.google.com/books?id=iKh8AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT264&lpg=PT264&dq=Alternative+Ulsters:+Conversations+on+Identity.+liam+neeson&source=bl&ots=sNOlpSDBzW&sig=bz3dzue--kfjriKc30dPoNsakwk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwixpcj-u7bfAhUCKa0KHf5sALAQ6AEwCXoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=Alternative%20Ulsters%3A%20Conversations%20on%20Identity.%20liam%20neeson&f=false
So the article should be changed to reflect this. Nuclare (talk) 19:16, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
 Done BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:34, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Now where is the evidence that Neeson has British citizenship? The quote mentioned above is him talking about DUAL (Irish and American citizenship) but not British. Its blatantly obvious the people who said he has British citizenship (with no source) while demanding a source for Irish citizenship have some sort of an agenda here. Stevenbfg (talk) 01:16, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
Please AFG, Stevenbfg. This has been debated at length, and there is - as you've noticed now - a source. Thanks for reverting. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:52, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Nationality

Thank you so much for clearing this up, Nuclare. Now, would it be appropriate to change the first line of the article to 'Liam Neeson is an Irish actor', seeing as he identifies solely as Irish and, although he holds other citizenships, still holds Irish citizenship? --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 02:02, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Seeing as he clearly doesn't - no. (Read the source supplied by Nuclare. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:40, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
What do you mean he clearly doesn't? In the source he states 'that's what I am - I'm Irish.' Furthermore in this very recent video 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5OKskTIEU8' when asked if he's British he states 'no, I am Irish.' It's pretty obvious that he identifies with being Irish more than anything else. --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 14:51, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
You said "he identifies solely as Irish." He doesn't. Per the source, after describing himself as an Ulsterman, he later says: "...I'm Irish. I didn't want to give that up, but that being said, I'm equally proud of being an American citizen" and he talks quite a bit about that through the chapter. So no, he doesn't identify solely as Irish. We've covered his citizenship, and "from Northern Ireland" works fine. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:37, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
One can identify as a certain nationality and have other citizenship. He's never stated 'I'm American', only that he is happy with American citizenship. --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 17:55, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

I think it's hilarious that Liam Neeson--the guy for whom UK citizenship seems at best a technicality--is one of the very few UK-born actors that has "British" anywhere on their page. Almost no Welsh, Scottish and not even very many English actors have 'British' anywhere at all on their pages, but the Irish guy is the one whose page is policed to keep 2 references to British in place. We are incredibly LUCKY that Neeson did that interview specifically about identity (something the vast majority of actors NEVER do) and that it was deemed recent enough, or else his dominant identity/nationality would have continued to be policed completely off the page. I'm tired of fighting about this stuff at the moment, so knock yourselves out about the wording, but I do think people should reflect on this. Nuclare (talk) 15:24, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Isn't citizenship always a technicality? Describing him as "an actor from Northern Ireland" has always been the most concise description of his background. The problem came about because of the insistence that his American and Irish citizenship were given prominance. At that point the lack of any mention of his British citizenship becomes a lie by ommission. Eckerslike (talk) 01:15, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
Yes, he may be from Northern Ireland, but he has always insisted he is Irish. I could link about 5 interviews strictly off YouTube where he refers to himself as 'Irish' - it's clearly a big part of his own identity. He may have triple citizenship, but there are no sources at present where he states 'I'm a British citizen', while we collectively have identified sources where he states he is an Irish citizen and an American one. However, you won't find any sources where he says 'I'm an American' or 'I'm British', whereas you will certainly find some where he says 'I'm Irish' or 'I'm an Irishman.' It's clearly something he identifies strongly with, and his citizenship matches up with that. Based on his legal citizenship, as well as what he personally identifies with as a national identity, I think 'an Irish actor with Irish, British and American citizenship' would suit best. Just something to consider.--Mr Serious Guy (talk) 15:06, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
No. He doesn't "insist" he's Irish - to the exclusion of everything else - he self-identifies as Irish, among other statements where he also identifies with other nationalities. There is no requirement on WP that citizenship must be self-declared. We have reliable sources for his three citizenships - a secondary source in the case of the British one (which is what we're supposed to use when available). "...from Northern Ireland" is the accepted form on WP for biographies of people from Northern Ireland, and the insistence on various alternate forms here is a perfect example of why the compromise was introduced and why it's best to stick with it. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:45, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
The point I'm making is that he doesn't identify with other nationalities. I cannot find a source where he states he identifies as an American. --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 22:53, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
No, citizenship is not always a technicality. It often has meaning and for most people it has a purpose. There's no evidence his UK citizenship even has a practical purpose for him; he blatantly leaves it out by calling himself a "dual" citizen (it's quite clear in the source he means Irish and U.S.) and ONLY talks about still keeping his Irish passport when he became a US citizen, which means he probably doesn't even have a UK passport, so it doesn't even have that practical purpose. Just read the sources where he talks about obtaining U.S. citizenship: it's meaningful to him; it's not a technicality. And, in those same sources where he is specifically talking about citizenship, he speaks of his Irishness and does so with words like "proud" etc--it clearly has meaning to him. Mention of British or the UK is entirely absent for those discussions of citizenship. I don't think Wiki pages should be laundry lists of citizenships. Frankly, there probably numerous actors who have all kinds of citizenships that Wiki editors would never know about. The only two citizenships that appear to have meaning to Neeson are Irish and U.S. That he took the trouble to BECOME a citizen of the U.S. and has talked about it as important to him strikes me as noteworthy and should be somewhere in the article. The sources (not just those talking about citizenship, but generally from 30 years worth of reading interviews etc w/ the guy) lead me to believe that Irish is the best choice to call him as a nationality. The article is already going to say that he's from Northern Ireland in the info. box and in the Early Life. Does it need to be said a third time? That his dominant identity is Irish is noteworthy and it's also accurate. Nuclare (talk) 01:54, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
Nuclare, if we're talking about nationality here, we can't just say (without a source) that his nationality is Irish on the basis of "his dominant identity is Irish". Russell Crowe is another example of someone who might identify as a different nationality (in his case, Australian), and might have lived outside of his country of birth and citizenship (New Zealand) for most of his life, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that's his nationality. For example, I could say that I identify only as British, and completely ignore and never mention the fact that I am Australian – does that make me British, just because that's my "dominant identity"? That's the kind of logic that you're giving us here. In the end, when it comes to nationality, what one identifies as doesn't really matter; it's what reliable (and recent) sources prove, and this is especially important when it comes to biographies of living persons articles. 4TheWynne(talk)(contribs) 03:28, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
While we're on the subject, HughMorris15, why did you remove the citizenships from the infobox and change the wording of the opening sentence with this edit without discussing here first? "...an actor from Northern Ireland" has been the long-term consensus at this article (also pinging Bryantriplex, who made a similar edit). 4TheWynne(talk)(contribs) 06:27, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
What one identifies as DOES matter relative to someone from Northern Ireland in regards to the labels of "Irish" and "British". We're not talking about Russell Crowe. We're not talking about an Australian who calls himself British. These are false analogies that don't go to the specific issues in this case. We are talking about someone with family roots across the island of Ireland who clearly and repeatedly calls himself Irish who is an Irish passport carrying Irish citizen and is accepted as Irish by the Irish government and by Irish people and organizations; he's someone who was born and raised in Northern Ireland, where the international agreement in place specifically recognizes "the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose". Let me emphasize three parts of that: "IDENTIFY THEMSELVES", "AND BE ACCEPTED AS" and "AS THEY MAY SO CHOOSE". Pushing this idea that "what one identifies as doesn't really matter" when all we are talking about here is someone from Northern Ireland who identifies as Irish in source after source after source decade after decade, talks about his Irish citizenship in more than one source, avoids identifying as British and doesn't mention British citizenship is rather unhelpful. Nuclare (talk) 18:22, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

No need for CAPS about Liam Neeson, OBE. You are now straying into WP:Synthesis, which is rather unhelpful. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:17, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Nuclare, please read WP:SYNTH. At the end of the day, if you can find and present a bunch of reliable sources stating that he is Irish (preferably new ones rather than pre-existing sources at this article, if there are any), then that will heavily support the claim and we can then decide on whether changing the wording of the opening sentence would be appropriate. And for the love of God, please don't include the George article from the previous discussion... 4TheWynne(talk)(contribs) 22:39, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
I've read WP:Synthesis. Nothing that I've said here violates it. I'm simply noting something that's repeated in lots of sources. That's not original research. And, once and for all, what's wrong with the George article? No one has ever adequately answered that. Nothing in Wiki AGE MATTERS negates it as a reliable source, if that's what you are talking about; and, in fact, its content was backed up by the much more recent Ulster Identities source posted above, so, again, what's wrong with the George article? And how many more sources do you want? At this point, I'm not even sure I get what you are claiming. Are you saying he's not Irish? All I'm saying is that, in my opinion, Irish is the best choice of how to describe this person as the initial descriptor, in the same way editors make the choice to call other actors "Welsh actor", "Scottish actor", rather than "British actor" or "actor from Scotland" etc. without needing a slew of really recent sources piled on to support citizenship(s). That he has multiple citizenships doesn't negate that Irish would be an accurate, legitimate and within policy choice to initially describe him, even if that's not your way of viewing how the wording should be. Nuclare (talk) 05:36, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
You're essentially saying "A and B implies not C" because you've not seen (or don't attach any importance to) C, and are taking this to imply Neeson has actually rejected C. But we have a source for Neeson having British citizenship and he accepted his full OBE, not an honorary one. Further, "...from Northern Ireland" is an extremely common way to describe people from Northern Ireland on Wikipedia:
  • George Best was a Northern Irish professional footballer who played as a winger.
  • William James Nesbitt, OBE is an actor and presenter from Northern Ireland.
  • Ian Richard Kyle Paisley, Baron Bannside PC, was a loyalist politician and Protestant religious leader from Northern Ireland.
  • Robert William Gary Moore was a Northern Irish rock guitarist and singer-songwriter.
  • Sir George Ivan Morrison OBE is a Northern Irish singer-songwriter, instrumentalist and record producer.
  • Linda Martin is a singer and television presenter from Northern Ireland.
  • Jocelyn Bell Burnell is an astrophysicist from Northern Ireland who, as a postgraduate student, co-discovered the first radio pulsars.
  • James Dornan is an actor, model, and musician from Northern Ireland.
  • Conleth Seamus Eoin Croiston Hill is an actor from Northern Ireland.
  • Martin O'Neill is a professional football manager and former player, from Northern Ireland, who was manager of the Republic of Ireland national team from 2013... etc.
I looked further for guidance on this as I'm sure I've seen it discussed before, but right now all I've found is an WP:IMOS discussion, here. Perhaps it might be best to centralise discussion there? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:39, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
We aren't talking about that line of people. That it is an extremely common way doesn't mean it is the best way to describe Liam Neeson. It's only Liam Neeson that we are talking about. Lots of people from Northern Ireland simply don't have the long line of sources that Neeson does where he directly calls himself Irish or directly discusses the issue of his identity (and citizenship). And I didn't say he doesn't have British citizenship. It can be mentioned somewhere on the page. But I think it's legit to criticize the way it's listed in a equal laundry line of citizenships (and first, even) in conjunction with the absence of some other reference to identity as presenting something about Neeson that is at best deceptive. A reading of the recent sources where the very topic of the conversation is citizenship and/or his identity shows a blatant absence of "British". In the YouTube conversation linked above he's directly confronted with "Is Liam Neeson British" and his only reply is to say: "I'm Irish". And that's just one example. That doesn't mean he's not technically a UK citizen, but it does mean that one ought to think hard about how these issues are written, and I'm not convinced the way it's being presented currently isn't deceptive and incomplete about what is noteworthy about this particular individual. Nuclare (talk) 13:42, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
Well then, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 13:55, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
4TheWynne said earlier "if you can find and present a bunch of reliable sources stating that he is Irish", here are a few:
--Mr Serious Guy (talk) 16:54, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
Nuclare, you need to stop saying, "We're not talking about _______" – just because Neeson was born in Northern Ireland, has three citizenships and is very well-known, doesn't mean that he's some completely unique case on Wikipedia that we can't compare him to other people. Mr Serious Guy, the last two sources (where other people call him Irish, rather than Neeson calling himself Irish) are better – if you can find more sources like those, except not from Irish publications (because having a heap of sources out of only the one country could indicate some sort of bias), then that will go a long way towards proving your point. 4TheWynne(talk)(contribs) 22:00, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
Okay,
So that's 6 secondary sources in total, two of which are Irish (one from the President of the country) and the rest American/British. Is that enough to substantiate he is identified primarily as Irish? --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 22:18, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

I think five of the above sources (the last two from the first group of sources and the three linked sources from the second group), which I've marked with an asterisk, are appropriate enough for inclusion. Do we change the wording of the opening sentence to "...is an Irish actor who holds..." with these five sources, or are they not reliable/strong enough? Pinging Bastun, Eckerslike, Canterbury Tail and Martinevans123, who have been involved in the last couple of discussions; anyone else may also feel free to weigh in. 4TheWynne(talk)(contribs) 00:30, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Here's another: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/features/liam-neeson-an-irishman-in-new-york-897252.html (he's called an Irishman and an Irish actor.) ...On the issue Wynne raised of me saying 'We're not talking about...' One can compare him to other people on Wiki, but it needs more substance than simply because they are from Northern Ireland, which seems to be all that's being compared. Nuclare (talk) 00:54, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
And another: https://www.signature-reads.com/2014/09/liam-neeson/ And I could keep going.... Nuclare (talk) 01:13, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
I'll just pop one more on here for the heck of it. It's from The Guardian ("Irish actor") : https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/jan/20/firearms-company-para-usa-liam-neeson-gun-control Nuclare (talk) 02:01, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
Oh, what the heck, one (for now) more for the road. This from CNN ("Irish actor"): https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/13/entertainment/liam-neeson-taken-movies/index.html And, btw, I have a list of additional ones in which he calls himself Irish, which I think is more meaningful to this than you do. Nuclare (talk) 02:52, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, yeah - you can stop with the examples. We get that he self-identifies as Irish (and I don't think the request for more refernces was especially helpful). However, regardless of how he primarily identifies, he's also an American and a British citizen, so singling one or the other out and ignoring the others, in order to use the formula "an Irish actor from Northern Ireland", will then result in someone changing "Irish" to "Irish-American", then someone changing it to "American" (or "British"), which will then result in someone changing it to "Irish", and so on, ad infinitum. Using just "an actor from Northern Ireland" in the lede avoids that problem entirely. In fact, we should remove "who holds British, Irish and American citizenship" from the lede, too. It's not relevant to his notability. We can discuss his citizenship and nationality in the body, in the "Personal life" section, if you really want. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 10:11, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
"...an actor from Northern Ireland" might avoid that potential issue (which I think is a gross exaggeration of what could eventuate – in any case, that's why we have invisible notes, to try and prevent people from making those changes), but in my opinion, nationality isn't something that should be relegated to the "Personal life" section – maybe the "Early life" section, if it is to be left out of the lead section entirely, but not that far down the article. My take on the current wording is that "from Northern Ireland" is only being used because his nationality isn't being/hasn't been included – I don't see how anything's being singled/left out if it is immediately followed by his citizenships, as with the current wording. 4TheWynne(talk)(contribs) 11:56, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
Really? The invisible note on the (currently again PP'ed) Saoirse Ronan article hasn't prevented constant edit-warring on whether she's Irish, American, or Irish-American; seven of the edits from the most recent page of edits are edit warring over this... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:13, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
Well, yeah, yeah, if you hadn't been on patrol ridiculously policing 'Irish' entirely off the board under a phony pretext I may not have even been drawn back into the debate. So too bad...oh, whoops, look I slipped, how 'bout one more for old times sake: https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/ballymena-actor-liam-neeson-is-america-s-favourite-irish-celebrity-1-8113265 Nuclare (talk) 13:20, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
Got any evidence to back up that ridiculous attack? Sure what matter - no doubt you'll be back in another three years to keep us all in order... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:39, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
Yes, it's on this Talk page. Your supposed concern that U.S. law may have demanded renunciation of previous citizenships, but magically that meant you were only demanding a really recent source to prove he hadn't renounced his Irish citizenship, while not demanding a darn thing for British citizenship to be kept on the page. Plus dismissing the George article as a violation of Age Matters while making no such claims about the British citizenship source, despite it being from the exact same era. So, yes, forgive me, but I do think there is evidence of some phony and some pretext going on. And I don't care about keeping you in order. I care about Liam Neeson being described in a way that provides good info about who he is and what is noteworthy about him. Nuclare (talk) 15:37, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
Luckily the article does just that, then - "an actor from Northern Ireland." With Irish, American and British citizenship. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:56, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
If it was actually worded in that order, that would be an improvement, but it's not worded that way--at least not at the time of my typing this. And 'Irish', as you know, is a very recent addition, although it should have been there much sooner. Nuclare (talk) 23:14, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

I sometimes think the word "Irish" means different things to UK and US readers/ editors. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:29, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Martinevans123 How so? Nuclare (talk) 05:16, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
Insofar as American folks (and indeed many others) tend to use "Irish" to mean anyone from the island of Ireland, whereas the British tend to reserve that term for people from Eire and to use "Northern Irish" for people from the north. Brits will even sometimes use "Southern Irish" to make this distinction clear. That's just my personal observation as a Brit. Even a non-English Brit. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:46, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
Martinevans123 I don't think that's true. Or I should say: I'm not disputing that these things are done by some Brits and some Americans, but I think it's a hard thing to generalize about. Knowledge and interest in Ireland/Northern Ireland varies so greatly amongst both Brits and Americans. Many Brits call everyone from Northern Ireland 'Irish' (even people they probably shouldn't). And Americans are often the ones who come out with things like "He's not Irish; he's NORTHERN Irish", as if they think the two are mutually exclusive. In any event, Liam Neeson, via the sources, is called Irish by every group (British, Americans and Irish) because he is Irish and he strongly and repeatedly identifies as such. Nuclare (talk) 14:57, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
Then our personal perspectives differ. I guess we'd have to compare instances of a person, in both UK and US press, who was only Northern Irish. Perhaps someone like Neil Hannon. But I think there's little point for the purposes of this discussion. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:23, 5 January 2019 (UTC) p.s. (to your addition): I think UK residents are generally closer to the Ireland/ N.I. distinction, regrettably largely because of The Troubles. But I concede that many US residents do have a particular interest in Ireland and its people Martinevans123 (talk) 15:56, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

So at the very, very least the article should be changed to say what Bastun says in his previous comment it says: "an actor from Northern Ireland who holds Irish, American and British citizenship". (And that order in the Info Box as well). That order would at least be more reflective of who he is, and I base "who he is" on the sources--all those posted above and more. Nuclare (talk) 01:52, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Oh, so random order, then? Because that's the order I wrote them in. Let's just avoid WP:OR and WP:SYNTH entirely. If citizenship is something that should even be in the lead sentence (and with the amount of time being wasted on this I'm leaning much more towards removal entirely!), then chronological order of acquisition is just fine. ;-) BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 08:08, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
No, it's not just fine. It's deceptive about who he is. The order I suggested is also not a random order; it's based on the sources. I suspect you know it's not a random order. But, yes, by all means remove the laundry list of citizenships entirely, from both places. I'm for it. Of course, he should be described as "Irish actor" in it's place in the lead, but... Nuclare (talk) 14:57, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
I don't think it's "deceptive about who he is" at all. The problem with a random order, of course, is that it can look like a non-random order. Especially when it comprises only three items? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:27, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
But that's part of the problem. By describing an Irishman--who the sources suggest has no meaningful British identity if he has it at all (for example, in the most recent source about his citizenship he calls himself a "dual" Irish and U.S. citizen)--with "British" plastered first in a list of citizenships it is very likely to be interpreted as a non-random indicator that "British" is being listed as his primary identity. It is deceptive. It's folly to think people aren't going to take a citizenship as an identity. And let me repeat what I've pointed out before: if one goes to the pages of other UK-born actors, only a few of them have "British" anywhere on their pages. What's the logic in taking this one UK-born actor--one who the sources suggest is less meaningfully British than any of the Scots or Welsh or English--and sticking "British" twice and in the prime position? The only reason I can determine from this Talk page seems to be because the Queen decided 20 years ago to put him on an awards list. It's not that I'm saying a comment about his British citizenship in regards to the OBE can't be on the page. But how is the way it currently is the best way to describe this particular individual? Nuclare (talk) 16:05, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
If the OBE is the only source for British nationality, that does seem a bit weak (although he has described himself British?) What are the actual rules on OBEs? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:24, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
Look, Northern Ireland actors (particularly ones Neeson's age) get prodded about Britishness quite often, so maybe somewhere, sometime in some context over the 30 years he's been doing interviews he has said he's British, but I can't find anything in recent sources (or even an old source, but it could be out there). It's quite the opposite--in recent years, there's a source where he is presented with a Google search question: "Is Liam Neeson British" and his only response was "I'm Irish". In all sources where he discusses citizenship directly he doesn't mention British citizenship at all. In the late 90s he called himself and his sons Irish citizens in a source. No mention of British. When he became a U.S. citizen, he talked in sources about it in terms of still being Irish with no mention of British. In the Ulster Identities source, he says he's a dual Irish, U.S. citizen. No mention of British. In that same source, he was asked about Britishness in regards to the OBE, and he didn't have anything direct to say on that part of the question. He acknowledged the award as an honor, but basically said he took years to pick it up and knew he'd be criticized if he didn't or did accept it; that contrasts with every other identity he was asked about in that source: Ulsterman? He directly stated that, yes, he was an Ulsterman. Irishness? He directly states that, yes, he is Irish. Britishness? Nothing. He didn't have anything to say. The case is that his OBE isn't honorary so it requires British citizenship to have received it. I've no reason to think that isn't true. He probably is a British citizen legally. But that doesn't mean we oughtn't be careful and mindful of the sources about how "British" is presented in regards this individual, and I'm not convinced the way it is currently is the best wording and not at least somewhat deceptive. Nuclare (talk) 16:47, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
He was born in Ballymena in 1952 - is that a clue at all? Are there no rules on awarding an OBE? You don't need to tell me "look...", thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:11, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
I don't understand this response. I assumed that an understanding we are discussing someone born in Northern Ireland was a given of this discussion. You put in the form of a question "although he has described himself British?" That's firstly what I was answering. Has he described himself as British? On the OBE, again, my understanding of the OBE is that to receive one that isn't honorary you need to be a British citizen. I don't know what else you are looking for. I'm not disputing he's a legal British citizen; it's unlikely he legally renounced any citizenships. My only point is about the wisdom choosing, unlike most other UK-born actors, to have references to him as British twice or at least in the particular order it's currently in. Nuclare (talk) 17:43, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
So we can agree, he's British. The current wording: "who holds British, Irish and American citizenship", and matching info box, looks just fine to me. I don't think the sources need to need to be in the infobox. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:50, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
No. We don't agree. We can agree he is legally a citizen of the United Kingdom of GB & NI (known as "British citizenship"). I do not agree that saying "He is British" is correct. Nuclare (talk) 17:54, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

(Arbitrary break)

I can't believe you guys are resisting something as simple as reordering the list of citizenships to better reflect who the sources describe Neeson to be. I think Anthony Hopkins is a perfectly good example of how Neeson should be treated. In the lead, put his primary identity (Welsh for Hopkins; Irish for Neeson), then list multiple citizenships in the Info Box. Nuclare (talk) 17:59, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

You're telling us he's not British? Or just that we're not allowed to describe him as such? Hopkins is a very different case as "Welsh" has no such ambiguity. Happy to treat all individuals on a case-by-case basis. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:07, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
Firstly, you are proving my very point right here about how the citizenships will be interpreted: By treating my saying "He is a British citizen" as if it's the equivalent of my saying "He is British". I'm saying that for Northern Ireland people there is an international agreement in place that respects the right to identity in regards "British" and "Irish". It sets up a distinction between the legal citizenship that the UK dubs "British" and identity. Here's the exact wording: "The participants endorse the commitment made by the British and Irish Governments that, in a new British-Irish Agreement replacing the Anglo-Irish Agreement, they will:...(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland." At the moment, I don't think we have any sources that Neeson identifies as British. We certainly don't have any recent ones, since that has been said to be very important. Nuclare (talk) 18:44, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
And I don't think Neeson being Irish is ambiguous. He is Irish. He's Irish on every basis a person can be Irish. That he was born in Northern Ireland is already described in two other places on the page (the Info Box and Early Life), if that's what you are trying to suggest is ambiguous (even though it's not). The comparison with Hopkins, though, was mostly in regards to how his multiple citizenships are listed. They are not in the lead at all. They are only in the Info Box. They are also called "United Kingdom" and "United States". Nuclare (talk) 18:44, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
That's a good point about the international agreement. Most readers, and indeed editors. may not even be aware of that. One assumes Neeson is aware of it? In a way perhaps, it puts (what I see as) ambiguity on a legal footing. Maybe the citizenships need not be listed in the first sentence, or even in the lead section. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:45, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

To be clear the Good Friday Agreement is primarily a legal aggrement between governments. So when the Irish and British governments agreed to the above quoted section it could only refer to the legal ability of the people of Northern Ireland to claim citizenship of either or both countries without descimination by either governement. To suggest that the aggreement asserts that the respective governments have power to determine the identity of their citizens would be both Anti-Irish and Anti-British.

As demonstrated in this article where he says “Certainly Irish-American, that’s what I am and then, if I have to be specific, Northern Irish-American.” and this soucre where he refers to Northern Ireland as "my homeland", he considers himself Irish by virtue of being from Northern Ireland. So to justify the less specific and more ambiguous wording of "Irish actor" you have to show why someone from Northern Ireland cannot be considered Irish. Eckerslike (talk) 21:11, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

I didn't say the govts have the power to determine their identity; quite the opposite: it affirms an individual's right to their own choice of identity, including the right not to be identified as British or not to be identified as Irish. The discussion there was about whether it was a good choice to put the word British first in the two lists of his citizenships and whether we need two lists of his citizenships. This part of your statement I simply don't understand: "So to justify the less specific and more ambiguous wording of "Irish actor" you have to show why someone from Northern Ireland cannot be considered Irish." I seriously don't get what you are saying there. There are people in Northern Ireland who don't identity as Irish or for whom it's a marginal, not very meaningful identity, if that relates to what you mean?? I'm not sure. And, as when Martin said so above, what is this claim that "Irish" is ambiguous?? It is not. Your choice of sources is also selective, given the great number of sources one could produce in which he directly calls himself just Irish, including in an earlier section of the interview that the article you posted was quoting. And I don't know why you are saying based on the second source that he is "Irish by virtue of being from Northern Ireland". Nothing in that article establishes that statement. It seems more likely he is Northern Irish by virtue of being from Northern Ireland. How do you know he isn't Irish by virtue of being from the island of Ireland? Or also Irish by virtue of his mother being from the south of Ireland? Both of those are far more likely. But none of that, including your assertion, is supported in the source you've posted. That he's from Northern Ireland is and will remain in the info box and in the early life section, regardless of what's said in the lead. Here is a source where he is discussing a constitutional referendum specific to the Republic of Ireland where he speaks of Ireland in terms of "our country" and "my home country". Nothing in this sounds like an Irishness rooted only in Northern Ireland: https://irisharoundtheworld.com/liam-neeson/ Nuclare (talk) 04:37, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
Having said all this: keep in mind that this particular thread of the discussion started with me simply suggesting the rearrangement of a few words and that being rejected. Nuclare (talk) 04:37, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
So - ignore what is done in other articles about people from Northern Ireland (such as those on George Best, James Nesbitt, Ian Paisley, Gary Moore, Van Morrison, Linda Martin, Jocelyn Bell Burnell, Jamie Dornan, Conleth Hill and Martin O'Neill (people, incidentally, from both communities in NI!)), because "we aren't talking about that line of people". But do do what an article on a Welsh person says. Because... that suits you? Would you listen to yourself! You've literally written over 20k on this topic in just the last 5 days, and edited nothing else! You may need to step away from the Reichstag, especially if that's a Spider-Man costume you're about to put on.
I've been WP:BOLD and removed the citizenships from the lede sentence. They're not appropriate for the lede, and have demonstrably generated far more heat than light. Can we move on? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:15, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
I think that's a huge improvement. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:08, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
Hopkins is not just a Welsh person. He was born in the UK as was Neeson. He's an actor as is Neeson. He's received a Queen's Honor as did Neeson. He emigrated to the U.S. as did Neeson. He became a U.S. citizen as did Neeson. He and Neeson (unlike lots of people from Northern Ireland) also both have strong/multiple sources supporting an identity (Welsh/Hopkins; Irish/Neeson). These are issues that go specifically to the questions at hand here. And I never said ignore others from Northern Ireland, but one can't just assume everyone from Northern Ireland must be treated the same, which is all your list seemed to be suggesting. What else were you suggesting? Of course, I already said this above. Maybe I wouldn't have to write so much if I didn't have to keep repeating myself, fielding your false claims of policy violations, grappling with your hypocrisy about sources or, in other cases, explaining to others things that I initially assumed would already be understood by people editing the page of someone from Northern Ireland. Nuclare (talk) 13:13, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
But, yes, the removal of the list is an improvement. Nuclare (talk) 13:19, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
I understand that the use of ‘is an actor from Northern Ireland’ is a good way to specify where a person is from on Wikipedia when they come from NI, which has varying degrees of national identity and huge variation in their citizenships. It’s a concise way to say that. However, would you folks not concede that Neeson is a unique case among people from NI who are on this site - he, unlike, for example, James Nesbitt, has specified that he is an Irish citizen, and that he identifies as an Irishman above anything else - clearly a unique circumstances. Because there is no ambiguity to what his citizenship is, as well as his nationality, would you not want to reflect that in the article? By the way, as an Irish passport holder myself, Irish passports say ‘Nationality: Eireannach/Irish’, so it’s not just a matter of his own self-identification as Irish, but also his legal documentation. ~~——- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr Serious Guy (talk • contribs) 15:14, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I agree with you. Nuclare (talk) 21:17, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
Or let me correct one piece of what I said: I agree that Neeson is a case where Irish would be a good and appropriate description for him. Where I don't totally agree is in calling him unique. I think it's rare and I think it absolutely needs to be applied very carefully, but I wouldn't go so far to say he's unique. Nuclare (talk) 21:41, 6 January 2019 (UTC)


Paging User:Bastun, Martinevans123 et al, to reply to/consider my point about Neeson being unique and his legal documents stating he is Irish, etc. --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 17:23, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Did he show you his passport personally? Does he also have a British passport, or perhaps he's now thrown it away? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:27, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
What evidence is there he ever had a British passport? Why are you assuming he even had a British passport? Or do you have a source? If so, could you provide a link or reference. The only passport I've ever seen him mention having is an Irish passport. Here's his quote about his passport (He was being asked about becoming a U.S. citizen): "I knew I could have dual citizenship. I didn't want to give up my Irish passport because that's what I am: I'm Irish" It's from the Alternative Ulster source linked on the page and above. Nuclare (talk) 02:19, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Nothing makes him "unique." The documentation argument is, frankly, bizarre. Can't believe this is still being discussed... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:30, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
I agree he's not unique. There's no reason to think there aren't others from NI who would best be described as Irish. Personally, I can't believe you can't believe this is still being discussed. That people would argue an Irish person should be described as an Irish person shouldn't be something you can't believe. Nuclare (talk) 02:19, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
I think what's frankly bizarre is that you, and others' reasoning for not calling him Irish is that 'we can't prove he is an Irish citizen', then when evidence is given that shows he only holds an Irish and an American passport, you still refuse to describe him as such, despite multiple publications and written works describing the man as Irish, and precisely zero describing him as British or American. --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 17:38, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Here, in 2014, HuffPost describes his as "British actor with Irish roots Liam Neeson... "? [1]. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:41, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Look at Keanu Reeves’s article. He has British citizenship. He was born in Lebanon. However, because he was raised Canadian and identifies as Canadian and holds citizenship, a consensus was reached in calling him Canadian, why can’t you do the same with Neeson? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr Serious Guy (talk • contribs) 02:14, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
Liam Neeson was born in the UK, raised in the UK and identifies as Northern Irish. So this helps your argument how? Eckerslike (talk) 10:07, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
User:Eckerslike, I have provided many sources above where he states he is Irish. He simply does not identify as Northern Irish, and I provided many sources where he identifies himself as ‘Irish’. He was raised in an Irish Catholic family as Irish, in northern IRELAND. You’re just being ignorant and it’s sad to see. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr Serious Guy (talk • contribs) 16:13, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
You seem to miss-understand the position you have put yourself in. I do not deny that he is Irish but you a proposing that he should be "uniquely" considered as such. If he does not consider himself British then why did he accept the Order of the British Empire? If he does not identify as Northern Irish then why did he say he did in this ariticle? So when you use the example of Keanu Reeves being considered Canadian because he was raised and self-identifies as Canadian which is a lesser critiria than achivived by Liam Neeson for nationalities other than Irish. Hence you have torpedoed your own argument. Eckerslike (talk) 17:30, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
And here'a a Irish-born torpedo to help illustrate. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:49, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
What's the issue with describing him as Irish and then detailing his other citizenships elsewhere in the article? We all know by now that the man is Irish with British and American citizenship, so what's the issue with saying that?--Mr Serious Guy (talk) 18:57, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
What's the issue with describing him as "an actor from Northern Ireland", then detailing his citizenships elsewhere in the article? We all know that the man was born in Northern Ireland, was happy to accept an OBE as a British citizen, and is on record as being proud of his American citizenship. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:58, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
Because it's just repetitious of what's said elsewhere while leaving unsaid his primary identity. It would be one thing if we didn't know anything more meaningful about his identity, but we do. And "happy to accept an OBE as a British citizen" sounds like spin, unless you have a source in which he words it like that. We know he accepted it, he's called it an honour to be awarded, but "happy...as a British citizen"? That's a very particular kind of wording you've chosen there. On what basis do you word it that way? In Alternative Ulsters, he speaks of taking years to pick the OBE up and believing he'd be cursed if he didn't accept it--or if he did. That doesn't sound the equivalent of "happy...as a British citizen". And if Eckerslike is going to post the question about the OBE he does above, than he needs posit an answer to it: "If he does not consider himself British then why did he accept the Order of the British Empire?" That's not just some rhetorical question to be tossed around. There are reasons someone without (or with very little of) a British identity might accept a award offered to them by the UK. What Neeson's reasons were or weren't need sources, not rhetorical questions. And, although I get what is being said in response to Mr. Serious' specific claims, Eckerslike also isn't correct to imply that calling him Irish in the lede would mean he's only uniquely Irish. It simply means a choice is being made for the lede, as is made on vast numbers of Wiki pages where the lede identifier isn't the be all and end all of a person's identity and citizenship(s). Nuclare (talk) 07:49, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Liam Neeson was born in Ireland, raised in Ireland and identifies as Irish. So this helps your argument how? 95.83.250.53 (talk) 12:25, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
It seems some folks would rather he wasn't recognised as British, like that nice bigoted hateful demagogue Reverend Paisley? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:40, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
Watch the first 18 seconds of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5OKskTIEU8&feature=youtu.be&t=18. Patrick Wilson asks if Neeson is British and Neeson says "I am Irish". Why didn't Neeson just say "yes, i'm British"? Gee its almost as if he doesn't consider himself British at all but infact Irish. I guarantee you if it was the other way around, Neeson would listed as a "British actor" in the opening right now. Stevenbfg (talk) 01:32, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps you could read Eckerslike's comments from 17:30 on 13 Jan and consider those in response, rather than completely ignoring them? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:58, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

That's a bit rich, Martinevans123, given that it's Liam Neeson himself who so often avoids recognizing himself as British when the very topic is his identity and citizenship. In the interviews where he directly discusses his citizenship (George Magazine; the announcement of his gaining US citizenship; Alternative Ulsters), he makes not a single reference to being British. Plus the video referenced above where "I am Irish" is his only response to the question 'Is Liam Neeson British". Nuclare (talk) 07:49, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

I thought you might have found that source of interest. Personally I found a lot of what Pailsey said "a bit rich". Martinevans123 (talk) 08:55, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
It's not NOT of interest, but I'm not sure what Paisley's part in it proves. The award Paisley wanted him denied wasn't for Britishness. (Neither is the OBE; being legally a UK citizen is simply a prerequisite). If anything, it's illustrative of what I was referring to above about the pressures that are put on Irish Catholics from Northern Ireland (and not on other UK people) about these issues. The only possibly relevant point in there would be the Ulster Unionist politician who makes reference to an internet source where she says Neeson called himself British. It's a secondhand report and what she is referencing would also likely be a 20th century source, so based on the standards applied above that would be deemed unreliable 'round these parts. But the argument here isn't that he isn't in any sense British. It's about the choice of how best to describe him in the lede, rather than it being a question of what is every term that can possibly be said of him. Nuclare (talk) 14:03, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
"But the argument here isn't that he isn't in any sense British." It isn't? Oh. Because that's really not very clear from all of the above argument. Grand, so. In the lede, we summarise the article. So, as this issue is apparently so controversial, in the lede we can say, without any doubt or ambiguity, "Liam Neeson is an actor from Northern Ireland." Glad that's settled. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:54, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
We can equally say, without any doubt or ambiguity, "Liam Neeson is an Irish actor". People claiming we can't doesn't make it so. There is no reason at all based on scores of sources for such a statement to be controversial. That people claim it is doesn't make it so. So, no, it's not settled, thanks very much. And it's not my fault you can't keep up with how and why these discussions proceed the way they do. If people didn't bring up spurious arguments (i.e. making claims about Neeson's British passport without evidence such a thing ever existed or dragging Ian Paisley articles into the issue, as just two examples) maybe the central point wouldn't get obscured. Nuclare (talk) 23:14, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
I didn't drag him, I placed him. And I thought it perfectly relevant to do so, if you don't mind. Deliberately excluding Neeson from the benefits of British citizenship is a somewhat extreme view. But it's still a view. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:18, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
So now you're resorting to thinly veiled personal attacks? People with a differing view to you are "dragging" people into the debate as examples - but what it it called when you use Anthony Hopkins as an example? That's at least your second time doing that in this debate. Pot, kettle, black. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:26, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
Hopkins makes a pretty believable Irishman, actually. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:32, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
Paisley is an example of what in this context?!? I've already said twice why I think Hopkins is a good example for Neeson. What Martinevans123 is claiming Paisley was doing in that article isn't what he was actually doing. Paisley was criticizing things Neeson had said about growing up in Ballymena and Paisley's response was to say that Neeson, therefore, shouldn't be awarded by the town of Ballymena. That's NOT denying him the "benefits of British citizenship", as Martin claims it is. An award from a town isn't a "benefit of British citizenship". And if you are going to make the (dubious) claim that I'm engaging in personal attacks, than let's look at what Martin said to start this: People were posting that Neeson is Irish and he should, therefore, be described as Irish, and in response Martin compares that to a "bigoted, hateful demagogue". THAT was a personal attack. Saying that someone is making spurious arguments is not a personal attack. The word "dragging" in reference to an article is not a personal attack. Nuclare (talk) 14:02, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
Wow. Thanks for the huge dose of AGF there, Nuclare. Good luck with your friendly discussion here. I think you've made a mountain out of a pretty small molehill. Off my watchlist. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:31, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but that is how your comment read. Especially given that Paisley didn't comment one way or another on Neeson's Britishness in the article you linked, it sounded as if you were comparing certain editors' views on this debate to Paisley's bigotry. Nuclare (talk) 15:29, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
Saying that people "can't keep up" with a debate is clearly a personal attack. Knock it off. Look at your contributions page, Nuclare. Two pages edited in 4 weeks other than this talk page. You're beginning to look a lot like a single-purpose account! It's beyond a joke. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:25, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
Yes, it is a joke that I have to keep repeating myself and then get accused of posting too much because of it. I don't like it either. But, as you concede, I'm not a single-purpose account, so laugh it up all you want, but that's yet another false claim of a policy violation against me. Nuclare (talk) 23:50, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Let's not go too off-topic here – I think it's safe to say that until someone can come up with a stronger argument to change the wording of the opening sentence to "an Irish actor" without taking away from his other citizenships (now that they have been moved further down the article), it's best left how it is. 4TheWynne(talk)(contribs) 10:56, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5OKskTIEU8&feature=youtu.be&t=18 argument over. You can still list his other two other citizenships. But it's clearly stated here, Irish is what he identifies as. Without being snarky, you must realize due to the good Friday agreement the Northern Irish can identify as either British or Irish or both. Neeson identifies dominantly as Irish. So it's time to respect that fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:6839:8158:6DD9:416:3BE8:A28A (talk) 18:43, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. The Good Friday Agreement is a part of the UK and Ireland's constitution. It was ratified by the UN, and clearly states if someone wishes to be solely Irish, they must be respected as such. --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 17:22, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
The GFA refers to the ability of the people of Northern Ireland to adopt citizenship of Ireland, the UK or both. If he wished not to be British then he would have renownced his citizenship. Not only has he not done so but he has visited Buckingham Palace, bowed to the Queen and accepted the Order of the British Empire. Eckerslike (talk) 19:33, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
"(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to

identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose." https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/136652/agreement.pdf

He's clearly identified himself as Irish, the GFA states that people who do so must be respected as Irish, that should be the end of story. --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 22:37, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
That full clause of the GFA is clearly not just about citizenship. I'm not sure why Eckerslike talks about it as if it is. Nuclare (talk) 13:20, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
And I'd add, it's not our place to speculate what someone accepting an award means, especially 20 years later, about someone's identity nor to speculate why someone wouldn't go through the trouble of renouncing a citizenship. Nuclare (talk) 13:28, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
Indeed - no speculation. So we'll stick with what we do know - he accepted the award, and he's a citizen of Ireland, the United Kingdom, and the United States. We're back to where we started. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:08, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
There would be no speculation involved in calling him Irish in the opening. That he accepted the award has nothing to do with what he should be called in the opening, yet strangely it always comes up as if it does. Nuclare (talk) 13:21, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
There is no speculation involved in calling him an actor from Northern Ireland in the opening, and Irish, British and American later on. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:11, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
His being from Northern Ireland is mentioned elsewhere on the page whereas the very noteworthy fact that Irish is his primary identity is left entirely absent from the article. Nuclare (talk) 01:31, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
Has anyone mentioned reading righting great wrongs? Specifically WP:REHASH? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:48, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
I say a piece of noteworthy info is missing from the page and you reference Righting Great Wrongs?! Uh, no, it's not a "Great Wrong"; it's a missing piece of noteworthy information about the subject of this page. How about addressing that and not making YET ANOTHER false claim that I'm violating Wiki policy? Nuclare (talk) 13:44, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
The WP:REHASH page states 'If your arguments are rejected, bring better arguments.' So far, this process has been 'Here's some sources on Neeson stating he's Irish.' 'Yeah but he accepted an OBE.' 'Okay, here's some secondary sources where news publications describe him as Irish.' 'Yeah but he accepted an OBE.' 'Okay, here's the President of Ireland stating he's Irish.' 'Yeah but he accepted an OBE.' 'Okay, here's a video of him saying 'I'm not British, I'm Irish.' 'Yeah but he accepted an OBE.' 'Okay, here's a piece of international law ratified by the United Nations, the Irish government and the British government stating if someone from Northern Ireland wants to identify solely as Irish, they must be legally respected as such.' 'Yeah but who cares? He accepted an OBE.' We the proposition have consistently brought many arguments, while everyone else has literally stuck to the same gun - he accepted an OBE so he can't be described as Irish. --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 14:03, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
WP:RGW because of the absolutely incredible volume of text written on this issue on this talk page, when the main author of that text makes no or very few other contributions to WP. It's become their cause celebre of recent months, and it's frankly ridiculous at this stage. Yes, he accepted an OBE. That's a fact. He also applied for, and received, American citizenship. That's a fact. Those facts are reported. Along with the fact of his Irish citizenship. The lead states he's an actor from Northern Ireland. That's also a fact. The lead has been adjusted, but apparently it's not enough to state he's from Northern Ireland there, and later to state he has three citizenships, we also need to include some waffle about his "primary identity" being Irish? Give me a break. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:32, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Still off my watchlist. But I thought I would just peek in to check on "progress" here. On 9 December the Talk page was at 24,789 bytes. It's now at 101,078. I really think it's now time to ask any non-involved admin to bring this to a close. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:47, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

User:Bastun, this is not 'waffle', this is how the vast majority of noteworthy people are described in the website, by their nationality. Neeson has unequivocally specified his nationality. It wouldn't even BE 'waffle', because it's the simple inclusion of the word 'Irish' and that's it. There's a plethora of evidence to back it up as well as a piece of international legislation which states that people in his situation should be described as Irish if they so choose. It'd be great if a non-involved admin examined the evidence provided by me and others and settled the case. And by the way, you said I make no other contributions to WP, yet if you actually look at my contributions, I've been making them for 8 years now. --Mr Serious Guy (talk) 22:04, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
"To identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, has no legal effect." THE BELFAST AGREEMENT: A practical legal analysis p130 Eckerslike (talk) 23:56, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
No, I said the main author of the text makes no or very few other contributions to WP. That's not you. Though if you've been around for 8 years you should know admins don't "examine the evidence" and make rulings on content. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 08:24, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
You can have all the goes at me that you want, it doesn't change the fact that calling Neeson 'an Irish actor' would be a perfectly legitimate choice based on piles of sources, and it's far from waffle. And since you are wrong about me being the 'main' driver of this topic, trying to dismiss the topic by attempting to make it about me isn't likely to work. Nuclare (talk) 16:34, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
So, you (Nuclare) still won't even accept the current compromise in the lede. Whereas Mr Serious Guy wants us to say "Neeson identifies primarily as Irish" somewhere in the article. Seeing as everyone else can accept the lede compromise, I think that'll be staying. No matter how many kilobytes you write about it. And seeing as Neeson, when asked about his identity actually says "Certainly Irish-American; that's what I am. And then, if I have to be specific, Northern Irish-American." we're unlikely to be putting "Neeson identifies primarily as Irish" in there anytime soon. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:17, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
What this edited version of the interview leaves out is the question Neeson was asked when he said he was Irish-American: He was asked if he considered himself American; in other words, it's Neeson inserting his Irishness even into a question purely about Americanness. So that's hardly a stellar argument against my or Mr. Serious' point. Not to mention that there's just scores more "I'm Irish" sources. But whatever makes you happy, Bastun. Nuclare (talk) 19:36, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
FFS. No. He was not asked if he considered himself American. Look, the horse is dead. Drop the whip. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:48, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
The question isn't listed there. That's edited too. There's "pages omitted". Nuclare (talk) 01:24, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
Wait, so - you don't actually have access to the source you're relying on and are quoting from memory or something? Because if so, your memory is failing you. After saying "America has been good to me", the actual question he is asked is "A lot of people still cling to the identity of their birth in those circumstances, though." And he starts his response by saying "No, I don't have the cascading shamrock on the 17th of March." and goes on to say "Certainly Irish-American; that's what I am. And then, if I have to be specific, Northern Irish-American." BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 08:56, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
"Certainly Irish-American" isn't an answer to the "...cling to the identity of their birth..." question. There's a page or pages omitted between the two in the Google Books link. Someone had posted more of the interview that did have that particular question listed, but I can't find it again at the moment and, on deeper thought, I could be conflating the America-discussion portion of the interview with his Irish-American/Northern Irish-American answer. So I withdraw the comment and apologize. I'll figure it out, but I won't be able to do it now. Nuclare (talk) 17:41, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
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