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Requested move 10 January 2017

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. A rough consensus is that "La Fan" is the common name in English reliable sources.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:15, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]


La fan → La Fan – From the article references the correct capitalization has both words capitalized Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:06, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Words in Spanish are not capitalized in each word. But that is done, that is the rule that they impose on this Wikipedia.--Philip J Fry • (talk) 17:10, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In this link you can see that capitalizing on each word is an incorrect use.--Philip J Fry • (talk) 17:15, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
All the Spanish language references I checked capitalize both words which is why I brought this up. I assume Spanish language publications will reflect current preferred capitalization methods for Spanish language television series titles. Also MOS:CT says Wikipedia capitalizes both words in that title. WP:COMMONNAME even in Spanish publications is La Fan. I assume from reading the prescriptive language rules that the people who named the show are not strictly followed the prescriptive rules in this specific case or they are treating this title like a proper name which even in Spanish seems to capitalize most words. I'm wary about correcting official names. A C&P move was already attempted to La Fan. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:24, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Really everyone can type as you wish, if you realize all those sources are magazines and entertainment pages. And in my opinion this is an encyclopedia and therefore should respect the rules set by the RAE. "Fan" is not a nickname, in this case, because the protagonist will never say "Fan" as the main name. But as I said before, in this Wikipedia simply ignore the rules of the Spanish language for the use of words in capital letters---Philip J Fry • (talk) 17:33, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree if this were eswiki, which this is not. And I expect the eswiki MOS style reflects correct usage of the Spanish language in the Spanish language wikipedia project. I do note that es:La fan has been deleted 10 times vs es:La Fan only being deleted once so it looks like La fan is the most likely topic there if and when the article ever stops being speedy deleted on sight and gets permitted there. The enwiki MOS reflects choices permitted by English language usage for writing in English, and although the MOS respects foreign language usage still prefer to use English language rules when there is a conflict. So far MOS:CT and WP:COMMONNAME match how title is described in Spanish language magazines and entertainment pages. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:47, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your point, but usually in the language in Spanish you will always find titles of movies, series and more in capital letters, because they are about web pages. But if we base a bit on Wikipedia in Spanish, there are usually rules that indicate that not everything can be capitalized, as they use as main rule those indicated by the RAE. So based on the references seems a bit absurd, so if the references indicate that the title in such a case was: "La, fan" or "La: Fan", would that make any sense?. Although I will take some time to read the policies on the use of titles well.--Philip J Fry • (talk) 18:01, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:FOREIGNTITLE with respect to foreign language titles says "Retain the style of the original for modern works. The question is "what is the style of the original for this foreign title?" Evidence, independent of whether or not it is correct Spanish, from publications in Spanish is La Fan. I did a search for the title and even promo videos from Telemundo show them spelling it La Fan so that looks to be the title the broadcast network itself is using. That is reflected in the article infobox image also from Telemundo. La Fan is therefore the "style of the original" for our purposes. I can see eswiki correcting the title based on their version of how to name their articles, but enwiki is not bound by how eswiki does things. The reason I did the requested move process is this does need discussion and I was expecting this to be somewhat contentious. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:38, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@IJBall: sorry but why would for example a newspaper like El Debate (Mexico) (see Angélica Vale ya graba su novela "La fan") be a less reliable source than Telemundo's website. We know that Latin American newspapers tend to follow European capitalization rules wheras Latin American entertainment websites lean to American English capitalization rules. But we're an encyclopedia, and it seems strange to be capitalizing Latin American articles differently from Spain ones. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:39, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, when the sources aren't unanimous and there's a conflict, then we generally defer to our own MOS. So that still supports moving to "La Fan". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:25, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The English language Wikipedia supports using different language rules in articles based on regional variations of English and that is well-supported in our MOS. I take it that the Spanish language Wikipedia is less tolerant of regional variations of Spanish usage and I can understand the strong resistance of Spanish competent speakers to using Spanish incorrectly in the English language Wikipedia project as well. I think In ictu oculi has explained the regional differences in what is considered correct Spanish in various places fairly well and reflects Philip J Fry's belief that we should go with usage in more reputable Spanish language reliable sources and formal prescriptive Spanish language rules rather than the Spanish language entertainment ones and that includes the network broadcasting the series itself. I assume that the Spanish reliable sources that spell it La Fan have competent editors and that usage reflects their style guide. I assume Telemundo, who targets a Latin American Spanish speaking audience is also competent in the use of the Spanish language. It appears that there are valid variations of Spanish usage and not all Spanish sources feel bound by the formal rules. We are left with a conflict of foreign language usage and English language Wikipedia style guidelines per WP:COMMONNAME and MOS:FOREIGNTITLE say we go with the form that is most common in reliable sources. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:16, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with WP:RS is that it states "reliable for purpose" OWTTE, in other words a soccer blog might be reliable for number of goals scored in a season but wouldn't be reliable for Spanish accents on players names. There's also an issue of consistency across the whole on en.wp regarding MOS. Britannica doesn't have one MOS for popular entertainment and another MOS for high-brow culture topics. But if we randomly follow the second hand MOS of different websites etc for different subjects we just get a mess. It would be easier to just go with what is orthographically correct. As for websites not employing chimps for copy-editors, that may not be the case for Telemundo's website, but there are "sources" out there on the internet that literally are written by writers who hang upside down and are paid in bananas. Part of the ongoing global campaign against writing... In ictu oculi (talk) 18:35, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I will continue to support the current title, because it is "La fan" not "La Fan", which are based on references to place a title seems to me something absurd, this is an encyclopedia. And in my opinion I think that the norms of spelling of the language in Spanish should be respected a little more, as indicated by the RAE. A clear example of which to rely on the sources is something incorrect is "Su Nombre Era Dolores", well there are several sources that credit the title in lowercase. For example: "“Su nombre era Dolores, la Jenn que yo conocí”: ¿Dónde ver el primer capítulo antes del estreno? and Así lucirá Luz Ramos en “Su nombre era Dolores, la Jenn que yo conocí”". Earlier I placed links that support my point, because we are talking about a Latin American production, even if it was a title in English.--Philip J Fry • (talk) 18:53, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per MOS:TITLE: For non-English titles, follow the convention of the language in question. Spanish doesn't work the same way as English (or French; if this were a French show, it would be La Fan, since French, under both of its common but conflicting title capitalization schemes, would capitalize that word). All of the above WP:COMMONNAME and RS argumentation is entirely off-base. COMMONNAME is not a style policy; it is the policy that tells us whether the title of this subject is "La fan" (styled one way or another) or something else entirely like "The Fan" or "Snorkel-weasels of Dorkenheim" based on what the sources say. I'm not sure why people cannot get this through their heads after fifteen damned years of discussions like this.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:50, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@SMcCandlish: Maybe if MOS:TITLE actually had anything in it that matched what you said this would not be an issue. What is stated in MOS:CT which is linked from MOS:TITLE at § Capital letters is "Retain the style of the original for modern works" for foreign composition titles. There is nothing anywhere that says directly "For non-English titles, follow the convention of the language in question, only to retain the style used in that language which is the whole point of this as the predominant style used in Spanish language publications and that includes the author of the show itself is La Fan. 01:42, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
Alternatively, after fifteen damned years of discussions (and often heated ones at that) you'd think it was obvious that there's a problem with our whole approach to capital letters... as you and I have discussed several times now. Andrewa (talk) 18:42, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I've tried to follow the arguments above and can't see any reason not to use the capital F. It's well attested in sources, and is the more recognizable to our readers. Andrewa (talk) 18:42, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The Wikipedia in Spanish, French and Portuguese use the title as "La fan".--Philip J Fry • (talk) 00:45, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Which is interesting but completely irrelevant so far as I can see, Andrewa (talk) 03:00, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

¿Angélica Vale escribió la telenovela?

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Didn't Angélica Vale actually write the telenovela, or at least the title story, which was then rewritten by Telemundo? I think she should be credited with more than "having had the idea" for the telenovela. Perhaps Angélica Vale did not write the 2nd (Cinderfellow) story which is added on, like an independent story -- though who knows, maybe somehow they will bring it all together eventually and unify the telenovela. I reminds me of La Verdad Oculta where there were 2 sets of protagonists and 2 distinct stories. (PeacePeace (talk) 23:29, 4 March 2017 (UTC))[reply]

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