Talk:LaFerrari

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It is not named Ferrari F70, but Ferrari F150. Here, take a look: http://www.ferrari.com/english/gt_sport%20cars/special-limited-series/Pages/the-waiting.aspx The page name should be changed -- 189.54.213.242 (talk) 20:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Ferrari changed the web page, because that link makes no mention of F150, F70, or hybrid. 72Dino (talk) 05:47, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a story from a secondary source indicating that the F70 name has been changed to F150: [1]. I would like to reach a consensus on the talk page before making any change to the article. BTW, I still don't think Ford will allow that to be the final name, but that's just my opinion. 72Dino (talk) 17:45, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that Ferrari chenged the web page because I saw the name F150 written on this page on the Ferrari website too, but now there is nothing: http://www.ferrari.com/english/gt_sport%20cars/special-limited-series/Pages/special-limited-series.aspx -- 189.54.202.99 (talk) 12:30, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This page should be renamed right now because F150 is the internal factory name, as the real name is still a secret. They call it F150 or F150 project and gave to only some ppl in the world this badge: [2] - this is really a picture of an invitation badge to see the top secret f150, but as you said, I don't think that Ford will allow it to be F150, but this is really an internal project name. -- 189.54.170.163 (talk) 21:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Did you really mean "This page should not be renamed right now"? If not, and if the real name is a secret, what do you suggest we should rename it to? Until the final name is known, we can leave it as the project name, changing it later when we know more.--ukexpat (talk) 21:35, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But F70 is a internet given name. The real project name is F150. ppl may search Ferrari f150 on wikipedia and not find it because this page have and incorrect and non existent name. It should be renamed. -- 189.54.170.163 (talk) 21:44, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

At the moment Ferrari F150 is a redirect to Ferrari 150° Italia. So how about I add a hatnote there pointing back to this article?--ukexpat (talk) 22:08, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it would be usefull, but it should be added on this page something like "also called F150"... -- 189.54.170.163 (talk) 22:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Article title

Now that the car has an official name, should the article be called "LaFerrari" as it is now or "Ferrari LaFerrari"? 72Dino (talk) 00:47, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion Ferrari LaFerrari -- just like Toyota Prius, Apple iPhone 5 or Nokia Lumia 920. --193.166.97.64 (talk) 08:50, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I just read the L.A. Times article more closely. It states "And it's not a Ferrari LaFerrari. It's just LaFerrari." 72Dino (talk) 16:42, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The NYT is also explicit about the name being LaFerrari and NOT Ferrari LaFerrari, see here. The article name is fine as it is.--Mariordo (talk) 17:13, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ferrari-Pininfarina factual accuracy

"This decision brings to an end the unbroken collaboration between Ferrari and Pininfarina which began in 1951." - There was another model that was designed by its rival, Bertone called the Ferrari GT4 in 1973. Donnie Park (talk) 19:36, 11 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"The LaFerrari is[...]" and "Ferrari LaFerrari"

Not sure why this needed to come up, but hey. I'm told that we would not use "The LaFerrari" to start this article because the "La" part of the thing's name is Italian for "The"... surely this is irrelevant, and that omitting a "The" is improper English? And, surely, any source that does the same is going against English itself and should probably be ignored, unless they're being quoted? Not very helpful, but Chrysler LeBaron is a great example of things being done right.

I still don't get the rationale described above on this page, by the way; cars are generally referred to with the mark name first--it's a standard--Ferrari is actually trying to mislead ("Supra" is correct; "Toyota Supra" is used because of the standard) and should be ignored until the standard itself is changed.

Fun fact for both: the Italian article starts off with "La Ferrari LaFerrari". Despatche (talk) 22:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

LaFerrari - though my initial thought was that the car should include its brand, The New York Times article changed my mind. I am for the title as it currently is. --Jackson Peebles (talk) 05:21, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Engine code of LaFerrari

Is there anybody out there who knows the engine code of LaFerrari? I'm guessing it is related to the engine of the FXX. So it should be some kind of F140, but which one exactly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.141.0.215 (talk) 12:23, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 07 August 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. A day after being relisted it seems consensus has formed to not move this page. (non-admin closure). Anarchyte (work | talk) 06:49, 18 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

LaFerrari → Ferrari LaFerrari – car articles have the makes name as well as the model – Flow 234 (Nina) talk 11:24, 7 August 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Anarchyte (work | talk) 11:45, 17 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Flow234:This is a contested technical request (permalink). — Sam Sailor ^Talk! 11:56, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Considering the previous discussions, this deserves some input from other editors. — Sam Sailor ^Talk! 11:56, 7 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with * '''Support''' or * '''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Oppose:

"LaFerrari" is the official name of the car, as anyone can verify by taking a look at any Ferrari press release. "Ferrari LaFerrari", besides being stupidly redundant, is a made up name.
No formal reasons to move this page: nothing forces us to use "Make+model" naming. Yes, WP:AUTO suggests that naming scheme is generally to be preferred for a number of sensible reasons, none of whom apply here. This particular case is the proverbial exception that proves the rule.
No practical reasons to move this page: LaFerrari is already perfectly recognizable and precise.
Should we move Jensen-Healey to "Jensen Jensen-Healey" as well?

—Cloverleaf II (talk) 13:58, 17 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, per above. The LaFerrari can be considered like the automotive Concorde in the sense of how it is named. Buttons0603 (talk) 18:10, 17 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, reliable sources state very explicitly that the name is just LaFerrari, not Ferrari LaFerrari. Bahooka (talk) 18:20, 17 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, as per above arguments - no need to repeat them. Chaheel Riens (talk) 19:11, 17 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Ferrari LaFerrari

Decode any Ferrari LaFerrari VIN number and you will see that the car is registered as "Make: Ferrari" and "Model: LaFerrari". Therefore, the car is the Ferrari LaFerrari (Make being Ferrari and Model being LaFerrari), not simply LaFerrari as some seem to think, as there is no automotive make or brand by the name of LaFerrari. The car is the Ferrari LaFerrari regardless of how odd that may sound. In light of this fact, all references to the car should be as Ferrari LaFerrari. 108.6.237.202 (talk) 16:27, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See debate above and give it up until you can get some support. Mr.choppers | ✎ 14:27, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I stated it seven years ago above, and I reiterate it here: Reliable sources such as the New York Times state that "The temptation to call it Ferrari’s LaFerrari must be stifled, the company says; its correct name is – like so many other one-name celebrities, like Sting, Cher, Madonna or Liberace – just LaFerrari (no space)." Ferrari itself states that the name is just LaFerrari. That is the WP:COMMONNAME from "reliable, published sources" per WP:RS. Bahooka (talk) 01:16, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I feel a sense of deja vu, because here we are 7 years later and I'm again responding directly below Bahooka with exactly the same comment again - oppose the change for all reasons made clear above. Chaheel Riens (talk) 06:30, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so you want reliable sources. No problem.

The following is from https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/mid/

Please go there and see for yourselves. This is a free US government website. Look on the right column and go down to "World Manufacturer Identifier (WMI)" and check the box right next to it. That will open a drop down menu. Go down to the 4th line that says "Model Name" and type in LA FERRARI (make sure you have a space between LA and FERRARI otherwise it won't work) and click "Search" on the lower left. Below is what you will get, except arranged horizontally instead of vertically. Just go down towards the bottom of the webpage and you will see it for yourselves. Note that it says "Ferrari" under "Make" and "La Ferrari" under "Model". This is how the car is registered with NHTSA, an agency of the US Federal government. Do you know who registers cars and trucks with NHTSA? It's the automakers themselves. This means that Ferrari supplied NHTSA with this information that says "Ferrari" is the Make and that "La Ferrari" is the model. Do you all understand the significance of what I'm saying and showing you here? The US Federal government considers this car to be known officially as the Ferrari La Ferrari. And why does the US Federal government consider this car to be known as the Ferrari La Ferrari? Because Ferrari, the corporation, told the US Federal government that Ferrari La Ferrari is how this car should be known and identified.

WMI ZFF

Manufacturer Name FERRARI S.P.A.

Doing Business As (DBA)

Make Ferrari

Model La Ferrari

Address

Address 2 P.O. Box 589

City Modena

State/Province

Postal Code 41100

Country ITALY

Product Type Passenger Car

By the way, if you input La Ferrari into "Make" instead of "Model" in the webpage described above, do you know what happens? You get back "No results found". Why? Because La Ferrari is a Model name not a Make or a Brand.

This should be enough to convince anyone. But, if you want more, here is more.

The following is from https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/decoder

I ran a VIN number from a 2015 Ferrari La Ferrari on NHTSA's own VIN decoder website. Again, this is a free US government website. You can see that the decoder determined that this was a good number with no errors and the check digit is correct. You can also see that the Make is Ferrari and the Model is La Ferrari.

==== 2015 FERRARI - PASSENGER CAR ====

Error text: 0 - VIN decoded clean. Check Digit (9th position) is correct

Manufacturer: FERRARI S.P.A.

DBAs:

Vehicle Type: PASSENGER CAR

Model Year: 2015

Make: FERRARI

Model: La Ferrari

Body Class: Coupe

Anybody still not convinced? Take a look at this: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2020-04-17/pdf/2020-08149.pdf This is from NHTSA and US Dept. of Transportation and is an entry in the Federal Register. It has to do with importing the Ferrari La Ferrari into the US. But, here's the important point. Do you all see how every single time the La Ferrari is mentioned, it's mentioned specifically as "Ferrari LaFerrari"? All 10 times?

Still want more? How about this? https://www.dupontregistry.com/autos/results/ferrari/laferrari

DuPont Registry is a well known exotic car marketplace. If you look under "Make" for LaFerrari, you will not find it. You have to first select Ferrari under "Make" and then select "La Ferrari" under "Model" and then you will see several up for sale.

Same goes for well known classic car site Hemmings. See here https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/ferrari/laferrari You have to look up Ferrari under "Make" and then "LaFerrari" under model.

Now, if you're going to say, "well, yeah, but it sounds weird". Hey, I agree with you. It does sound weird. But I didn't choose the name. Ferrari did. And so, it is what it is. There are many Asian market cars that have strange sounding names (at least when translated into English). But that is the name, for better or for worse. Sounding strange or weird is not a proof against the evidence I'm providing.

And if you want to say that this was discussed several years ago, well yeah, I guess it was. But I did not know about this discussion then nor was I a party to it. And, most importantly, nobody - not a single party to the debate back then - made the arguments or provided the evidence I'm providing now. So this is all new evidence and all new arguments. So consider it like a trial that had been decided but some years later, the case was reopened due to the discovery of new evidence. It happens all the time.

Now what about what Bahooka was saying about how Ferrari says its just "LaFerrari" like Sting or Cher? The answer is that is just marketing/advertising gobbledygook or mumbo-jumbo if you like that better. That's all it is. They're trying to make it sound different or romantic or exotic so they came with a line of bull in the marketing because there, you have a lot more latitude so say whatever you want. However, when it comes to government filings to have the car registered so that it can be sold here in the US (government filings being a setting where you can't screw around like you can in marketing), you know what Ferrari said there? "Ferrari LaFerrari", that's what Ferrari said.

To all who actually take the time to read and see for themselves what I am saying, it should be clear that what I am saying is correct. Not because I said it. But because it actually is correct. So to you all, I thank you for your time.

To those who are not going to read and see for themselves what I am saying and are just going to reflexively say that I'm wrong because they already decided that I am, well, you aren't giving me a fair shake and there really isn't much to say to people who aren't willing to at least listen with an open mind and give a legitimate argument a chance. 108.6.237.202 (talk) 03:15, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is marketing - which is how cars' names are created to begin with. I am afraid I will give more credence to NYT and Ferrari than to someone's personal opinions. The NHTSA and Hemmings and the Dupont Registry link are all formats which require cars to be given a make and model, which is the only reason the LaFerrari is listed as such. You are not bringing up anything new, we have heard your arguments, we are fully aware that Ferrari is the manufacturer of the LaFerrari - but this remains irrelevant as far as the name of the car is concerned. Mr.choppers | ✎ 04:35, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You fall under the category of the last paragraph of my previous post. I could say the sky is blue and show all kinds of evidence to prove it but you would dismiss it all just because I said it. You have some sort of problem with me which did not begin on this page. This is just a continuation. Therefore, nothing you say here or anywhere else is relevant to any discussion on any topic that has anything to do with me due to your negative bias against me. It's just background noise. So I will wait to see what others have to say.

I will say this though. The fact that you could say that all the FACTS I posted are personal opinions only goes to show your lack of understanding, lack of knowledge, negative bias, and total disregard for the facts presented. I don't know why you post on pages that are auto-related because you obviously know nothing about automotive. Even a person with at least a cursory understanding knows that every vehicle, without exception, has a make and a model. This is a fact not an opinion. It doesn't matter if it's a car, van, truck, SUV, motorcycle, ATV - its all the same - EVERYTHING has a make and a model. No exceptions. This is the way it has been since time immemorial and it's the way it still is. It may not be convenient for your petty arguments but it nevertheless is the way it is. And there is no make or brand called LaFerrari. And these arguments ARE indeed new because nobody else made them before. That's what the word "new" means.

For normal editors out there, here's even more evidence:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15109421/2014-ferrari-laferrari-first-drive-review/

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ferrari/laferrari/2015/

Car and Driver and Motor Trend both refer to this car as Ferrari LaFerrari. I don't expect anything from mr.choppers because he is a lost cause. But for everyone else, this is 2 more sources in addition to all my earlier evidence presented above. Every vehicle has a make and a model. And LaFerrari is not a make or a brand. La Ferrari is only a model. Ferrari however is a brand. Therefore, it is Ferrari LaFerrari. And Ferrari's own statements and submissions to the US Federal government back me up as I showed above. So I am giving credence to Ferrari, but only where it really counts. 108.6.237.202 (talk) 08:03, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If I was such an unreasonable monster why would I be supporting you regarding the Ferrari Enzo? Anyhow, your refusal to even respond to what I say shows pretty clearly that you have no footing whatsoever. Mr.choppers | ✎ 19:13, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I did reply to what you said. You just can't see it because you don't read what I say with an open mind. That and your blind hatred of anything I do or say. Hatred has a way of obscuring truth and facts. That's another fact. 108.6.237.202 (talk) 19:53, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The first source you cited uses "(the) LaFerrari" exclusively except in the title. The second source is hardly reliable per WP:RS. Estar8806 (talk) 13:57, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which sources are you speaking about? Can you be more specific? 108.6.237.202 (talk) 18:04, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The sources you cited in the comment above the one I made. Try reading them. Your "evidence" hardly supports your argument, and may in fact support the counterargument. Estar8806 (talk) 18:53, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If there was a road test of a Honda Civic, do you think that every single mention of the Civic in that article would mention its full name - Honda Civic? No, it would not because it's too verbose and takes up too much space. The full name would be used at the beginning, possibly at the end, while all other mentions of the vehicle name would say "the Civic". Look up any road test and you will see this to be so. So your argument that it doesn't say "Ferrari LaFerrari" every time the model name is mentioned is kind of misleading. As for the 2nd source, I don't see why Motor Trend is a less reliable source than Car and Driver. They are the same type of publication. The link is showing material written by magazine/website staff not an advertisement. Beyond that, did you look at the sources in the original post or did you only look at the later post? I suggest going up to the 5th post under this heading and carefully reading through it. Feel free to check out those links as well. 108.6.237.202 (talk) 19:48, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, comparing a Honda versus a Ferrari is hardly a comparison at all. If the article title were just "Civic", that would fail basically every naming criteria we have. "LaFerrari" does not.

Second of all, the sources you cited in the fifth post are also unreliable. The only exception to that statement is the government-run sources, but we tend to avoid those here.

Third of all, based on the arguments of the last RM, "LaFerrari" is used by reliable sources [3], which is what wikipedia is based on.

Fourth, "LaFerrari" is the WP:COMMONNAME [4].

Not only have you yet to provide any reliable sources, you've yet to provide any policy base for the change you want to make. A lack of either simply means the change won't be done. Estar8806 (talk) 22:07, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You missed my entire point with the Honda Civic comparison. I was not saying that the Civic and LaFerrari were comparable cars. That was never my point. You were saying that the Car and Driver article I cited did not support my argument because it didn't always spell out Ferrari LaFerrari in every mention in that article. What I was attempting to show by mentioning the Honda Civic although it apparently flew right over your head was that a road test article about any vehicle model is NOT going to spell out the name of that vehicle (meaning the subject of the road test article) in every mention of that vehicle in the article about it regardless of what type of model it is. So your attempt to say that since that article did not refer to Make and Model in every mention of that vehicle (meaning Ferrari LaFerrari) in that article somehow proves the opposite of what I am saying is incorrect. If Car and Driver believed that the vehicle was just called LaFerrari, they would have made that the title of the article. So your first point is proven wrong.

Now to your 2nd point. You think Hemmings and DuPont Registry are unreliable? These are well-respected and relied upon publications in the classic car and exotic car fields. You may not have heard of them but that does not take away from their renown. Look up their wikipedia pages (yes, they each have a page) or look up their own websites or find an expert in classic cars or exotic cars if you can. They will tell you. Then you say the exception to the "unreliable sources" is the "government-run sources". I should point out here that there were 3 different government sources. But then you say that these are avoided? Well, that sure is convenient, isn't it? There is an excuse to dismiss everything, isn't there? Is that really how things are supposed to work here? Come up with a narrative and then figure out the facts to support that narrative? I think we should be doing better than that here and I won't apologize for it.

I will come back to your 3rd point shortly.

Now to your 4th point. You say that LaFerrari is the common name. This argument also doesn't hold water. Because by that argument, Chevrolet Corvette should just be Corvette. And Ford Mustang should just be Mustang. There are many famous, iconic cars that are instantly recognizable by just a model name. But that is not the way their wikipedia pages are set up. There is no reason for the LaFerrari to be treated any differently than any other vehicle model.

You claim at the end of your post that I have not provided any reliable sources. I do not see how a government source is not reliable (and I supplied 3 of them). Especially, when the information that those government sources is based on was furnished to the government by none other than Ferrari itself. I think this point has been lost on some people here and so it bears repeating and emphasizing. The information that is shown on the US government websites that I provided up in the 5th post are using information that Ferrari itself provided to the US government. This is information that every vehicle manufacturer that wants to sell in the US must provide to the US government - from General Motors to Ford to Toyota to Hyundai to VW to Porsche to Rolls-Royce to Ferrari and everything in between.

So now I pose a question to you all out there: Which do you think is more reliable - a statement by Ferrari to the press such as the one cited in the NY Times article mentioned above that some seem to be fixated on OR information filed by Ferrari with the US Federal government so that Ferrari will be allowed to sell their cars in the US and thereby earn their substantial profits on those sales? Think about that carefully before you answer.

Now to try to provide some additional context to my earlier statement regarding marketing/advertising gobbledygook or mumbo-jumbo. Another way to characterize what I was referring to is "Marketing speak". Press releases are often filled with all kinds of fancy-sounding terms and grandiose-sounding statements but when it comes down to it, they don't mean a whole hell of a lot. And that is exactly what the Ferrari statement cited by the NY Times is: Marketing speak. "The temptation to call it Ferrari’s LaFerrari must be stifled, the company says; its correct name is – like so many other one-name celebrities, like Sting, Cher, Madonna or Liberace – just LaFerrari (no space)." Pure Marketing speak, folks. Let's recognize it for what it is.

Now for some examples to illustrate what I am trying to say here.

1. Chrysler Group said that the 2013-2014 Viper was called SRT Viper with SRT being the Make or brand. However, this is a case of Marketing speak. When you look at a 2013-2014 Viper's VIN number, you will notice that the 5th position from the left is always a letter "D". Since 2012, Chrysler Group uses the 5th position from the left of every VIN number on all its products to indicate the Make or brand. So a Chrysler brand product like the 300 will use a letter "C". A Jeep will use a letter "J". A Dodge like a Charger will use a letter "D". The 2013-2014 Viper that was supposedly an SRT brand vehicle also uses a letter "D". This proves that it is NOT an SRT brand vehicle but rather a Dodge brand vehicle. Chrysler Group gave up on this charade in 2015 and the Viper was supposedly renamed back to Dodge Viper. But, you know what? The VIN number never changed. The 2015-2017 Viper used the same letter "D" indicating Dodge as the Make or brand as the 2013-2014 Viper that was supposedly an SRT Viper. In fact, there never was a designation for SRT to use in the 5th position of the VIN number because SRT never was a brand to begin with despite Chrysler's statements to the contrary.

Why do I bring this all up? Because just as Chrysler Group claimed that the 2013-2014 Viper's Make or brand was SRT even though it was not, the same goes for that Ferrari statement cited in the NY Times that some here are fixated on. Ferrari claimed in that statement that it's just LaFerrari but that statement was, much like with the Chrysler Group, just Marketing speak and is not actually the case. The truth can be found in the Viper's VIN number issued by Chrysler Group and in Ferrari's filing with the US government about the Ferrari LaFerrari. Those statements by the manufacturers are the ACTUAL truth minus all the marketing speak B.S.

2. Chrysler Group said in 2010 that Ram, which had been a model name of Dodge trucks, was now a separate Make or brand. However, this is once again a case of Marketing speak.

When you look at a 2010-2011 Ram pickup or Ram Dakota's VIN number, you will notice that the 2nd position from the left is always a letter "D". From 1981-2011, Chrysler Corp./Chrysler Group used the 2nd position from the left of every VIN number on all its products to indicate the Make or brand. From 2003-2011, Dodge trucks, vans, and SUV's all used a letter "D" to indicate the Dodge brand. (Dodge passenger cars used a letter "B".)

When you look at a 2012 Ram pickup or Ram Cargo Van's VIN number, you will notice that the 5th position from the left is always a letter "D". Since 2012, Chrysler Group uses the 5th position from the left of every VIN number on all its products to indicate the Make or brand. So a Chrysler brand product like the 300 will use a letter "C". A Jeep will use a letter "J". A Dodge like a Charger will use a letter "D". The 2012 Ram pickup or Cargo Van that was supposedly a Ram brand vehicle also uses a letter "D". This proves that it is NOT a Ram brand vehicle but rather a Dodge brand vehicle. For 2013, Chrysler Group changed this situation and Ram became a true, separate brand onto itself. How do we know? The VIN number changed. The 2013 Ram pickup and Ram Cargo Van now used the letter "R" in the 5th position from the left of the VIN number indicating Ram as the Make or brand. However, before 2013, there was never a designation for Ram to use in the VIN number because Ram hadn't ever been a brand despite Chrysler's statements to the contrary. It was only in 2013 that Ram became a true brand.

Why do I bring this all up? Because just as Chrysler Group claimed that the 2010-2012 Ram pickup/Dakota/Cargo Van's Make or brand was Ram even though it was not, the same goes for that Ferrari statement cited in the NY Times that some here are fixated on. Ferrari claimed in that statement that it's just LaFerrari but that statement was, much like with the Chrysler Group, just Marketing speak and is not actually the case. The truth can be found in the Ram pickup/Dakota/Cargo Van's VIN number issued by Chrysler Group and in Ferrari's filing with the US government about the Ferrari LaFerrari. Those statements by the manufacturers are the ACTUAL truth minus all the marketing speak B.S.

Folks, the evidence I am showing you all is pure fact not opinion and is irrefutable. Frankly it is overwhelming. There is no question that this car is the Ferrari LaFerrari. That's the way it is and there is no two ways about it. So why should this car's wikipedia page not reflect that? 108.6.237.202 (talk) 07:34, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And if there are still any doubts, please see here (free US Federal government website): https://vpic.nhtsa.dot.gov/mid/home/displayfile/5abd685b-f43e-4903-afd6-b4476075f0e1

Go to pages 6 and 7 to see Ferrari's filings for 2014 and 2015 respectively, which include the LaFerrari along with all of Ferrari's other models for those years. Do you all see how LaFerrari is listed under "Model Type" along with all the other models like California, 458, FF, etc.? Do you all see the Note at the bottom saying that this chart is valid for all Ferrari models starting from 2014 MY or 2015 MY?

So you see that the LaFerrari is listed as a model just like any other Ferrari model which Ferrari states it is listing in the document. This is in Ferrari's own words as I explained earlier. If Ferrari were not the Make, they would have had to say so here. However, Ferrari did not state that here because Ferrari is the Make just as it is on all the other Ferrari models enumerated in the filing.

This is crystal clear at this point. Unless someone is simply determined to ignore the truth regardless of all evidence to the contrary. All questions and misgivings have been answered and the result is still the same: the car is the Ferrari LaFerrari. Make: Ferrari, Model: LaFerrari. Same naming formula as any other car (Make then Model). So why should this car's wikipedia page not reflect that fact? Why should this car's wikipedia page name follow a different naming strategy than every other car in the world? 108.6.237.202 (talk) 08:28, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just because two of the websites you cited may be reliable for their intended purpose does not make them reliable for wikipedia's encyclopedic purpose.

Then, in response to my assertion we tend to avoid government sources, you said when the information that those government sources is based on was furnished to the government by none other than Ferrari itself. If the information is provided by Ferrari itself, that's a WP:PRIMARYSOURCE. Wikipedia uses WP:SECONDARYSOURCEs for information.

Then you go on to negate WP:COMMONNAME, a policy (which I myself have my own issues with, but I digress) by comparing a Chevrolet Corvette and a Ford Mustang to a Ferrari. Simply naming those "Corvette" and "Mustang" would fail WP:CRITERIA. "LaFerrari" fits the CRITERIA and is the COMMONNAME.

Nonetheless, you still have not provided any policy to support your change. As another editor said, this discussion is not going to go anywhere. If you'd like to open a more formal discussion you could open a WP:RM. If you need help doing that, I'd happily help you. Estar8806 (talk) 00:43, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do you not see how you are making circular arguments? You keep wanting to rely on a quote from the NY Times in which the NY Times was quoting Ferrari. That's somehow OK. But when I use government websites that are based on information from Ferrari, then you tell me that's unacceptable because it's from Ferrari? You're talking about the same thing. 2 sides of the same coin. Don't you see that? It's these double standards constantly being applied to further people's own agendas that makes it hard to take seriously what people are saying here.

Are you really trying to say with a straight face that if you just said Corvette or Mustang, people wouldn't know what you were talking about? You can't seriously believe that. The reason the Corvette page is Chevrolet Corvette and not Corvette and the Mustang page is Ford Mustang and not Mustang is not because of recognizability or naturalness or precision or concision. It is however because of consistency. LaFerrari does NOT fit the consistency part of WP:CRITERIA. Every page for every vehicle model is named by make and model which is how every vehicle itself is named including, I might add, the Ferrari LaFerrari as I have proven here repeatedly.

As for Primary sources:

1. Primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Even if you think the government sources are "Primary", it is still OK to use according to this from WP:PRIMARYSOURCE. The source is certainly reputable.

2. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. No problem here as no interpretation is needed.

3. A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. No problem here either. I'm only saying things which are straightforward and which anyone can see and understand for themselves.

So there is no problem with the case I'm making. The only problem is that some people's intransigence is not letting them see and understand what I am saying with an open mind. People are making up their mind before even reading the argument. People keep trying to hide behind rules that are supposedly a problem but when you look closer, those rules are not really an impediment at all. They're just being interpreted wrongly to be an impediment. Every rule is open to interpretation. Just look at the history of the US Supreme Court interpreting the US Constitution if you need an example of how the same rule or law can be interpreted in different ways. JustTheFacts33 (talk) 02:21, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is no denying that LaFerrari is a Ferrari make, only that the name of the vehicle is considered to be simply "LaFerrari", not "Ferrari LaFerrari". In fact, I see from your own provided material that all vehicles (including LaFerrari) in the list from 2017 onwards are simply listed as model type, without manufacturer in front of it - hence by your argument should we not rename all affected articles to remove the preceding "Ferrari" - after all that's apparently how Ferrari list their own vehicles in their own documentation?

Please see WP:DEADHORSE. Chaheel Riens (talk) 16:28, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I believe you mean the last link I provided. You are misinterpreting what I said and what the document says. So let's review and get it straight. What you are referring to is is a list of models and that is what I said it was. The point I was making here is that LaFerrari is a Model and not a Make. And since it is only a Model name, then it is only half a name. Why is it half a name? Because, as I also stated, every vehicle is named by a Make or Brand name followed by a Model name. For example, Ford Mustang. Or Lamborghini Countach. Or Ferrari LaFerrari.

Another point you missed: Do you all see the Note at the bottom saying that this chart is valid for all Ferrari models starting from 2014 MY or 2015 MY? That Note is at the bottom of each page of the document at the last link I provided with the year changing on each page. The note refers to all Ferrari models on each particular page. The 2014 and 2015 pages include the LaFerrari among Ferrari's various other models. The point here is that the LaFerrari is a model of Ferrari and as such, LaFerrari is only the Model name while the Make or Brand is Ferrari. And that means that the car's name is Ferrari LaFerrari. Which is what the vehicle's page should reflect.

Not accepting the facts for what they are doesn't change the facts. All it means is that one is living in denial. But if someone is confused, I will still try to relieve the confusion. JustTheFacts33 (talk) 00:05, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not comment in a talk page section as both an IP and with a username. It gives the impression that two separate people are conversing. Thank you, Bahooka (talk) 02:29, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is probably the last time I'll comment in this section because there's clearly going to be no move to change the name despite your opinion, however, you're wrong about car names always following the Make/Model format:

It took me less than two minutes to come up with three examples. Now, I know that strictly speaking we shouldn't use articles as examples of what to name other articles, but hey - that applies to your arguments as well.

Finally - nobody is saying that the car is not a Ferrari make. I don't know why you're so hung up on that particular issue. The discussion is around whether the car is known in reliable sources as "Ferrari LaFerrari", or "LaFerrari", not whether it is manufactured by Ferrari or not. So far sources (with a few exceptions where circumstances demand it) support that it's known simply as "LaFerrari". Chaheel Riens (talk) 08:25, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. The only reason some places, like NHTSA, say "Ferrari LeFerrari" is because they use a format which requires both [make] and [model]. It doesn't signify in the least. Mr.choppers | ✎ 12:23, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your examples are interesting, I will give you that. However, there's an important distinction between your examples and the Ferrari LaFerrari. DeLorean was indeed a Make. Mini, in its current BMW division incarnation, is a Make. And the original British developed Mini was sold under so many different makes/brands that it would be impossible to list them all in a page title. However, on the other hand, LaFerrari is not a Make or brand which you do seem to acknowledge. Further, it is not sold under many different brands like the original Mini was. So while your examples are interesting and I appreciate you mentioning them, they are not exactly the same situation. Therefore, they do not mitigate the fact that calling the page LaFerrari rather than Ferrari LaFerrari does not meet the consistency part of WP:CRITERIA because here there is only one Make but the Make is being left out of the page name unlike all other vehicle page names. There is no getting around that no matter how you spin it. JustTheFacts33 (talk) 16:43, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]