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Archive 1

Population Table

We need citations, Serbs were not 47% in 1948. See http://www.seep.ceu.hu/archives/issue61/herbert.pdf I will remove the dates with no citation until someone finds them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs) 02:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


Saying that the Albanians were 75% in 1912 is ridiculous. Also, it is hardly surprising that we see who wrote this... that biased one sided thug known as Malcom... he is not a real historical, but writs for political motives. His false informations are very plentiful in his books. Furthermore he does not site may sources, as he can not for his 1912 figures. (LAz17 (talk) 15:50, 12 September 2008 (UTC))

Slavic muslims

As they are registered and accepted in Kosovo as a minority, instead of this naming I suggest we use the Goran and Bosniak minority as well. Agreement here? But then in one article I read in [1] it says the following "Tatal cadets graduated up to the end of July 2000: 1384. Out of this there are: 1160 men, 224 women. Ethnic breakdown: 1223 (88.3%) Albanians, 86 (6.2%) Serbs, 32 Turkish, 4 Romas, 16 Bosnians, 16 Muslim Slavs, 3 Gorans, 4 others." I am not sure whom it refers to as Muslim Slavs, really. In Prizren, in my town, there are some minorities, but I've known of Bosniak or Goran origin, not sure about the Slavic Muslims. Ilir pz 23:44, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

In 1991 census, they declared themselves as "Muslims". Name "Slavic Muslims" is same thing and since we speak about year 1991 here, we should use that name. PANONIAN (talk) 20:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
After 1989 many things were suddenly "declared", Panonian. Even Albanians "embraced" Milosevic's SPS party, in faked votes. THose informations after 1989 and until 1999 should be taken with extreme caution. Ilir pz 21:00, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that they declared themselves as Muslims in previous censuses too. Muslims were first time recognized as one of 6 Yugoslav nations in 1971 census (I think) and many people in Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, and Macedonia declared themselves as Muslims in censuses after that. Today most of them do not declare themselves as Muslims, but some as Bosniaks, some as Gorani. PANONIAN (talk) 01:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

The south of Kosovo

It was not roult from Macedonians. It was the south of Dardania. -- Hipi

The local Dardani were of Illyrian or Thracian stock. See E.Çabej, he is saying that the Dardanians was Iliro-pelazge.-- Hipi

Antice works about the term Dardania [2] latein. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hipi Zhdripi (talk • contribs) -using the IP 172.208.101.196 (talk · contribs)- 02:51, 4 May 2006 (UTC).

==/==

History

I love how the Serbian history e.g. Battle of Kosovo 1389 is completely ignored. If you don't mention the truth don't think people will forget. Why does the history of Kosovo and Metohija start at the Berlin Congress? Work on your lies a little better my Albanian neighbors. The fact that more Serbian Orthodox Monasteries and Churches were burned and destroyed from 1999 until 2013 by Albanians then in 500 years of the ottoman rule.

Please restrict remarks to the discussion of Reliable Sources to improve the articles on Talk Pages - they are not a forum. This policy is at the top of every Wiki Talk Page.

On removing or adding propaganda

Litany just blanked out some parts of the text, accusing some that they are spreading nationalistic propaganda. I am amazed at what he added after blanking out parts, "The ethnic cleansing campaign was organized by the SS Divsion Skanderbeg. Around 10,000 Serbs was murderd and atleast 75,000 was expelled from Kosovo during the war." WHAT is this Litany? fairy tales? THIS is what is called propaganda, buddy. ilir_pz 21:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry buddy but you have to wake up from your one sided dream. If you think ethnic cleansing is a fairy tale you are more sick then I could ever imagen. Litany 20:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
whatever. ilir_pz 11:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

What article says about Albanians in Serbia is certainly not what people in Serbia are made to believe. We were manipulated in believing in different set of happenings. What scares me is the question about what were Albanians made to believe?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.101.133.15 (talk) 06:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Redirect

This page has been redirected to Albanians in Serbia. This move was done by subsequently-banned user:Србија до Токија, and was recently re-redirected by an anonymous IP. This appears to be an attempt to push the POV that Kosovo is and always will be part of Serbia. I believe this move is against consensus. Anyone else have an opinion? Dchall1 (talk) 00:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether Kosovo is part of Serbia. It shouldn't be merged, because this page can describe Albanians in a province or country. Superm401 - Talk 08:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I cannot believe what user Dchall1 is trying to do. You are trying to create two same articles "Albanians in Serbia" already exists, therefor it is impossible to have Albanians in Kosovo for that reason and also the reason is that this article has exactly the same content. --Forsena (talk) 16:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Included in the Timeline_of_Kosovo_History

I have included this in the Timeline of Kosovo history : Timeline_of_Kosovo_History please check.

Mdupont (talk) 08:19, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Albanians in Kosovo

This article is on Albanians in Kosovo, the ancient history section is irrelenvant as this is not the history of the region of Kosovo.Someone should just find the first mention of Albanians in Kosovo, by the medieval writer that mentions them.Megistias (talk) 20:21, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

If, as the article claims, "Albanian presence in Kosovo is recorded since the medieval period," then why does the history section start only toward the end of the Ottoman Empire (i.e., when Serbia & Montenegro gained independence from the Turks in 1878)? Albanians may have been in the area for hundreds of years, but they were not always the majority. Additionally, while these territories were considered Albanian during the Ottoman Empire, the redrawn boundaries following the Congress of Berlin were by no means the first time the land was under Serbian control, as this article implicitly suggests. To give no history prior to 1878 and to then focus only on the period after Albanians became a majority in Kosovo is both selective & misleading--which is to say, not neutral. It seems to me that it would be more balanced to provide a much longer history here, which would help explain how, over centuries, the demographics of this region have changed.Ironymobile (talk) 05:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Unanswered questions

This article does not answer the question of why there is a majority of Albanians in Kosovo. From what this article tells me, Serbia has controlled Kosovo for most of the latter's history. If that is true, then why isn't there a majority of Serbs instead? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.230.242.81 (talk) 01:35, 3 November 2009 (UTC) I figured out the answer in the article on Serbs in Kosovo.96.248.162.121 (talk) 20:37, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

(13 years later) Is someone going to answer this very good question? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:37, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Synvet Map

I removed that map because it isn't an ethnographic map but a map connecting ehtnicity to religion. I don't think that anyone can argue that Mussulmans is an ethnic description of any kind or that there is a nation called Serbo-Croats or Bulgar-Greeks.--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 17:45, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

I replaced it because it's part of a series of maps showing how the ethnic and religious distribution of the area's population has been viewed and mapped by scholars and commentators over time. The original file is clearly labelled with its source and date, so users can make their own judgement about the labels used by the map's author and how well they reflect the complex ethnic makeup of the region then and now. If this image is so inaccurate as to be useless then it should be proposed for deletion. If it is wrongly named, it should be relabelled. Wholesale deletion from every article it appears in, on the grounds that the deleting editor doesn't like the terminology used by the map's author at the time, is not helpful. Karenjc 17:15, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
OK, I understand.--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 19:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
I added another map.--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 09:50, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
The map states Ethnographic, not Ethno-religiousMegistias (talk) 10:04, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
The cartographer can label his map as ethnographic but when you make a map where you don't show areas inhabited by nations but by religious groups (Mussulmans) the map isn't an ethnographic one. --ZjarriRrethues (talk) 13:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

POV: Uncited claims of invasion etc

NPOV in this article really needs fixing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.33.96.8 (talk) 04:06, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move.  Sandstein  12:35, 23 February 2013 (UTC)


Albanians in Kosovo → Kosovar Albanians or Kosovars – Title "Albanians in Kosovo" is not completely accurate. It implies all the Albanians living in Kosovo (including the ones that say migrated from Albania or Macedonia) as opposed to the That's your POV, not what most of the sources say.Albanians who are a distinct sub-group and speak a distinct (eastern Gheg dialect). There are numerous sources using the term Kosovar, to refer to these people but "Albanian in Kosovo" is almost never used to refer to a indigenous ethnic Albanian person from Kosovo. Moreover, Kosovars themselves never refer to themselves as "Shqipetaret e Kosoves" (Albanians in Kosovo). They call themselves Kosovars. Just to draw a parallel: No one ever refers to Cypriot Greeks as "Greeks in Cyprus".

http://www.rferl.org/content/serb-kosovo-prime-ministers-meeting/24840304.html http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21571182-new-normality-slowly-emerging-between-two-old-balkan-foes-inching-closer http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130202/eu-confirms-serbian-kosovar-presidents-meet Mythbuster999 (talk) 11:20, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Its not right. The term Kosovar is new. Who are the Kosovars? Only Albanians? Because of that exist the terms Kosovo Albanians, Kosovo Serbs, Kosovo Bosniaks...ect. Not Kosovar Albanian or Kosovar Serb. Some international media take over this wrong. Many sources showed the opposit...Kosovo Albanian. Every Albanian from Kosovo said that he is Kosovo Albanian or Albanian from Kosovo, never Kosovar.--Nado158 (talk) 11:30, 7 February 2013 (UTC)


With all due respect, you have not responded to any of my points. You have chosen to make your POV known. The term Kosovar, in contrast to Kosovan (inclusive of all ethnic groups), refers to ethnic Albanians indigenous to Kosovo. Even in your native serbian there's a term kosovci (which includes all kosovo people) and quite often you'll come across "Kosovari" implying Albanians only. The term is not popular among some serbs because of politics (this is not the purpose of this request so I will not discuss it).

In the rest of the balkans the term 'kosovar' is widespread, as is in other international publications.

In Spanish: http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2012/11/29/actualidad/1354182544_627708.html In French: http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2012/11/29/97001-20121129FILWWW00454-kosovo-le-tpiy-acquitte-haradinaj.php In Serbian: http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Politika/211865/Gadafi-Srbi-su-nasi-prijatelji-ali-Kosovari-su-nasa-braca In this croatian article, there's a clear distinction between the Albanian (from albania) and a Kosovar: http://www.jutarnji.hr/zenske-fetuse-ciljano-ubijaju-albanci--kosovari--crnogorci-i-makedonci----a-posljedice-cemo-osjecati-svi-mi-/1076162/

And of course in English (Note how the term 'ethnic-Albanian' is always complemented with 'Kosovar' to emphasise the distinction I'm trying to make: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/world/europe/09iht-kosovo.4.8660025.html?pagewanted=all http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/19/balkans http://www.economist.com/node/242561

ooo, i get it now, those are all sock of Medvegja (talk · contribs), i will inform admin. --WhiteWriterspeaks 20:14, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I dont know should we comment here or not, its obvious sock puppet. Maybe request should be closed by someone... Hjaa, whatever... --WhiteWriterspeaks 20:46, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Couldn't this articles name dispute be resolved by calling the article Albanian Kosovars? I mean that is how they self identify (per the articles listed above) What is wrong with naming the article that? As for the 'sockpuppet' accusation, you accuse a lot of people of being sockpuppets Whitewriter. (including me!) It often avoids substantive discussion and can be construed as quite disrespectful. isn't a persons sockpuppetry an issue exclusively for the admin.Epeos (talk) 23:12, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I am still sure that you are a returnee editor (sock), but that will not stop me from editing articles with you in a normal way. Admins are informed about this, and some socks are already blocked. P.S. you are stalking my edits? :) --WhiteWriterspeaks 23:18, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Well I welcome admin scrutiny. I am not a returning editor. what can I do to prove that to you. I mean I've obviously read wikipedia before and I even tried creating a page once about my favourite human rights barrister, (it was rejected and I still don't know how to do that yet.) look at my edits!! They are terrible. I have to go into a page like 100 times before I get the sources linked right. Oh and yes I am stalking your edits :) but that's because our interests seem to overlap. I really like your architecture articles. its just Kosovo that seems our interests overlap but come from opposite points. Epeos (talk) 23:30, 7 February 2013 (UTC)


Epeos and Skinsmoke - Having googled "kosovar serbs" and "kosovar", the term (in English) does in fact refer to all the people in Kosovo whatever their ethnicity(and possibly in other languages too). In the Balkans, however, whenever the word 'kosovar' is spoken, it normally implies a kosovar albanian. There is another term for kosovar serbs which is "kosovci". However, this being an english language portal: the term has evolved to include all the people of kosovo regardless of ethnicity (whether they identify as such or not).

In the light of your arguments, I now also oppose the move to "kosovar". I do however believe that the title "Albanians in Kosovo" is not accurate. Because there could be albanians from other parts of the balkans living in Kosovo, but it doesn't make them Kosovar Albanians (who i repeat are a distinct sub-group culturally and linguistically).

On your proposal to rename the title to "Albanian Kosovars" and in relation to the Greek Cypriot/Cypriot Greek usage, I have made a mistake in my argument previously, and you're absolutely right The term Greek-Cyptiot is indeed used in preference to Cypriot-Greek.

However this doesn't mean that we can draw such universal parallels in naming. The matter of fact is that Kosovar Albanian is used far more often than Albanian Kosovar. Please see the links below:

The BBC site - search for Kosovar Albanian http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18328859 http://thenewlondoners.co.uk/media4us/british-kosovar-albanian-young-people-celebrate-independence/ http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/world/europe/04kosovo.html http://ask.metafilter.com/97905/How-do-Kosovar-Albanians-differ-from-Albanians-in-Albania http://www.ceeol.com/downloads/Review.pdf

Mythbuster999 (talk) 10:22, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Skinmoke - I understand (i think) where you're coming from, but what I'm trying to point out is quite obvious. People don't google "Albanians in Kosovo" nor do they google "Albanian speaking population in kosovo", they google Kosovar (with or without Albanian). There is a sub-culture, a distinct part of ethnic Albanian pupolation body who call themselves Kosovar and who are linguistically and culturally different from Albanians in Albania, Macedonia, Greece, Italy (Arbnereshe for example are not referred to as Albanian speaking population in Italy, but as a distinct sub-group called Arbereshe).

May I suggest another move to "Kosovar Albanian", and cancel the current one? And how would I do that :)?Mythbuster999 (talk) 17:15, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

  • Oppose - Wikipedia have already articles about Kosovar or/and Kosovan. Article name is "Albanians in Kosovo" and this with a reason.Nado158 (talk) 17:46, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support move to Kosovar Albanians: I suspect that Kosovar Albanians would probably be acceptable to most people here (we'll see). However, it's worth noting that the article was moved to Kosovo Albanians in 2006 and reverted immediately. I wouldn't worry too much about Google searches. I just tried searching Albanian and Kosovar and the first hit was this article. Would you also be proposing a move of Serbs of Kosovo to Kosovar Serbs? I do think the two articles should have the same pattern of titles, whichever format is chosen. I'm not sure how you change your proposal technically—I've seen it done several ways in the past. One possibility is to add or Kosovar Albanians to the move request. Another is to formally close the discussion and start a new Requested move request (though that way often upsets someone). If debate switches to the new suggestion, the closing administrator will almost certainly pick up on it anyway. Skinsmoke (talk) 07:56, 14 February 2013 (UTC)


  • Support move to Kosovar Albanians - I would also (ideally) propose the move to "Kosovar Serbs", but I have a little point to make: In contrast to the majority of Kosovar Albanians, Kosovar Serbs do not believe that they have a separate identity from the Serbs in Serbia. They see Kosovo as the heart of Serbia itself and that no such distinction can be drawn. For one, they speak the same Stokavian dialect as their brethren in other parts of the Balkans, share the same traditions, and let's not forget they all lived in the same state called Yugoslavia for the best part of the 20-th century. This alone will make the move contentious and quite probably, impossible. I will add an OR to the move request, as I'm not in the business of upsetting anyone. Thanks for the suggestion Skinsmoke.Mythbuster999 (talk) 11:51, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment I realise how sensitive these things are, particularly in view of recent and ongoing events. I think you are right, concentrate on this article first. The other may well follow in due course, particularly with a bit of careful rewriting of the introduction to make it clear that one side isn't being favoured over the other, but that is for the future. Skinsmoke (talk) 12:34, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Image of Pjetër Bogdani

Pjetër Bogdani was not from Kosovo. He was born in Kukës. His image should be removed from the infobox.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:53, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to "Kosovo Albanians". DrKiernan (talk) 17:25, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Albanians in Kosovo → Albanians of Kosovo or Kosovo Albanians – This article is about Albanians who were either born in Kosovo or Albanians who have strong connections to Kosovo, for example a lot of Kosovo-Albanians no longer reside in Kosovo (therefore they are not in Kosovo) and many were born outside of Kosovo (such as Germany and Switzerland) to ethnic-Albanian parents from Kosovo. For this reason I believe the title "Albanians of Kosovo" would be a more appropriate title as a significant amount of Kosovo-Albanians aren't actually in Kosovo as the current article title would suggest. This is a technical requested move based on the wording of the title in relation to the article content. IJA (talk) 19:45, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

  • Oppose, proposed alternate Agree that the present article title is likely not appropriate but the requested title isn't much better. Kosovo Albanians or some similar derivative is likely the most appropriate as it follows the pattern of other ethnic groups.--Labattblueboy (talk) 03:58, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support as second choice. Kosovo Albanians suggested by Labattblueboy seems to be the WP:COMMONNAME (Google gives "About 258,000 results" for "Kosovo Albanians", 8,230 for "Kosovan Albanians" and 74,600 for "Kosovar Albanians"). AFAICT, adjectives Kosovan and Kosovar are less used in this context than nominalized adjective Kosovo. The title suggested by IJA, if it fits in a greater naming scheme, is still better than the curent one (and, btw, it gives "About 171,000 results", so it's also in common use). (Yeah, I know that Google counts are highly unreliable, but hopefully they do provide an order of magnitude). No such user (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support move to "Kosovo Albanians" - "Kosovo Albanians" seems like a reasonable, sensible and acceptable title to me and it is certainly the Common Name. IJA (talk) 10:27, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merger proposal

I propose that Kosovar be merged into Kosovo Albanians. The "Kosovar" article was created in March 2015 as an identical copy of "Kosovo Albanians". (Until then "Kosovar" had been a dab page.) Since then the two articles have lived separate lives, but most of it is still identical in both. As far as I can see, there is not much content in "Kosovar" that is not already in "Kosovo Albanians", but there may be some non-overlapping content. This is obviously a WP:REDUNDANTFORK. "Kosovar" should probably be reistated as a dab page. --T*U (talk) 19:28, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Delete the Kosovars article. I was going through its contents and it is basically a copy and paste job of this article before i did some important additions to it a while back. The Kosovars article offers nothing new and the religion and language section is taken from the Kosovo country and demographics articles and so on. Not needed here as its about Kosovo Albanians the people. Delete it or send that request to a administrator. No need for a merger.Resnjari (talk) 04:47, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
I've sorted it out, I've reverted it back (per WP:BOLD) to before an IP copy and pasted this article into Kosovar. IJA (talk) 16:15, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
Kosovar/Kosovars can be deleted. No added value in them. Mondiad (talk) 22:21, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Mondiad, it was in relation to a copy and paste job before that someone had done. The current one is a short infobite about what Kosovar means. That is ok and should stay so people who look it up wont get confused. It all fixed now like editor IJA states.Resnjari (talk) 14:24, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Music

Removing the WP:INDISCRIMINATE list of unsourced (probably WP:OR) artists in the music section. Had this same problem over at Korea. It's just an open invite for anyone and everyone to add their personal favorite.

Needed is a source, like say...top 10 such artists of the past 20 years, to justify why these individuals are included and others aren't. If anyone has strong objections, you can r/v and we can discuss here, but please r/v with a source, otherwise this should be removed regardless per the above guidelines. TimothyJosephWood 12:38, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Citing newer bands and so on would require news articles written about the Kosovo music scene (non-folk stuff) to fill in that gap. Though i listen to it, not sure if there are scholarly studies on the new stuff (Albanian, English or otherwise). If someone comes across a journal article, but cannot access it, send me a message on my talk page, i'll look into and make and add the adjustments to the article. Best.Resnjari (talk) 12:44, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Kosovo Albanians

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Kosovo Albanians's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Political Parties of Eastern Europe":

  • From List of ethnic cleansings: Bugajski, Janusz (2002). Political Parties of Eastern Europe: A Guide to Politics in the Post-Communist Era. New York: The Center for Strategic and International Studies. p. 479. ISBN 1-56324-676-7.
  • From Demographic history of Kosovo: Bugajski, Janusz (2002). Political Parties of Eastern Europe: A Guide to Politics in the Post-Communist Era. New York: The Center for Strategic and International Studies. p. 479. ISBN 1563246767.
  • From Kosovo War: Bugajski, Janusz (2002). Political Parties of Eastern Europe: A Guide to Politics in the Post-Communist Era. New York: The Center for Strategic and International Studies. p. 479. ISBN 1-56324-676-7.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 10:26, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

unreferenced material removed from the lede

" A large Kosovar Albanian diaspora has formed since the 1998–99 Kosovo War, mostly in Germany and Switzerland. An estimated 500,000 Kosovar Albanians live in those two countries (about 300,000 in Germany and 200,000 in Switzerland), accounting for roughly one fifth of the total number of Kosovar Albanians worldwide. " - this data is 1) not in the body of the article, for which the lede is only supposed to be a summary, and 2) the Wiki articles that are re-directed themselves have "citation needed" tags for the information. A double-whammy. Find a Reliable Source (for both articles, actually) before re-inserting these claims. 50.111.199.0 (talk) 03:17, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Update 2017 - I removed this information yet again, after editor Zoupan undid it without any explanation. The next time this is done will result in taking the matter up with ANI. 104.169.26.177 (talk) 20:30, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

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