Talk:Kingdom of Powys

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A lot of information has been added to this page and much of it, while informative, is in a complete mess - horrendous spelling mistakes etc...have tried to clean it up James Frankcom

• Thanx for copy editing! I need to flesh out many more passages, and relate them directly to thr history of Powys. My concern is simply you have removed attribution within the artical that would be neccessary. Unless this sort of attribution is not wiki's way. Drachenfyre 20:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

• I have moved a section of your piece regarding the evolution of the name "cymru" to the main Wales page because it is more relevant there. I am also going to put a reference to John Davies at the bottom of this page. James Frankcom

• My advice is do you work then copy and paste it into a WORD or something similar. See what the spell-check brings up. Make the correction - except obviously for Words in Cymraeg - and then paste it into the edit window. That way you should avoid most of the avoidable spelling and typing errors. Some work may be needed, especially in the Rhodri/Gruffydd/Hywel section to make it relevant to just Powys. Good work though fella James Frankcom

Thanx, but there are some word choices which give a non point of view tone to the artical now. (Slaughtered comes to mind). Also, I have other sources to list, so it would be neccessary to list the references within the artical so as to differentuate which idea belong to which source.Drachenfyre 20:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean, but ideally things should be neutral. However, sometimes words like "slaughtered" are appropriate - perhaps for the poor monks of Bangor! I would not use phrases like "..says John Davies" and things like that. Put his name in brackets (Davies) and at the bottom have a full attribution. I have only been using this wonderful website for a year or so and these are things I have picked up. There are certainly people who know more than I on this and I am sure they will correct me and further refine this article. James Frankcom

Powysians @ Chester & Maes Cogwy

• I have re-instated (and expanded) information concerning the doubtfulness of certain statements in the 'Early Dark Ages' section, specifically regarding the Battles of Chester & Maes Cogwy. The reasons for Aethelfrith of Northumbria's supposed attempt to invade Gwynedd come directly from Geoffrey of Monmouth, not the most reliable of sources. I can find no evidence that the Powysians were at Maes Cogwy, although a brief passage in the Canu Heledd does imply that Cynddylan ap Cyndrwyn was there. If one accepts that he was from Powys (by birth or descent) or that his lands were at that time part of Powys, then it could be said that Powysian soldiers were involved in the battle, but this is something of a leap. Walgamanus 16:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
• I have again reinstated information concerning these two battles, with further clarification. Still further information and many sources may be found on the wikipages for the individual battles. Please do not remove this information unless you are able to cite additional, preferably primary, sources to the contrary. John Davies is a respected Welsh historian, but we can do much better for references than his 'History of Wales' which is, of necessity, a condensed history written as general reading matter rather than an academic study. Quote Davies for his opinions. Quote primary sources for widely accepted facts. Additionally, I have removed references to King Selyf's name meaning 'peace' in Welsh; as far as I am aware, the name means 'peace' in Hebrew: see Solomon. I have also removed references to St. Tysilio being educated at Bangor Iscoed, for which I can find no evidence. The 'Life of St. Suliau (alias Tysilio)' states that he first became a monk, at Meifod, under the influence of Abbot Gwyddfarch who visited him at his father's court. Walgamanus 22:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
• I have now obtained a copy of Davies' 'A History of Wales'. Nowehere does he state that the Battle of Chester was the result of Aethelfrith's pursuit of Edwin, nor that Selyf denied him access to Gwynedd via Powys. Nor does he state that the Powysians were at Maes Cogwy. Walgamanus 11:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• I believe a lot of very serious consideration should be given before widely accepted 'factual' information is deleted. Individual points about events which happened or perhaps did not a long time ago are often, even in estabished sources, based on the likelihood of something happening, something hinted or something implied, rather than on indisputable events stated as we would expect in modern reference material. Cynddylan was in all likelihood a real king who ruled a real realm, called or centred upon a place called Pengwern. Genealogical tables show him to be closely related to the traditional family of Powys. If a king of that line fought at Chester then he would invariably be accompanied by soldiers drawn from Pengwern or Powys depending on whether you believe Pengwern was a part of Powys or not. Most events occurring millennia ago, if subjected to over-rigorous critical examination and reduced solely to content of explicitly proven points, would reduce ancient history to some sort of anaemic non-event. History is not science. I think what is primarily important is how points like this are presented. They should be presented as events that definately happened as well as those likely to have happened based on what little is known from surviving source material James Frankcom (talk) 23:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Map of Powys

• I have noticed that User:Owj20 has created a marvellous new map for this page. It is excellent and I am sure I can echo everyone's thanks to you for your work and thank you for updating this page from the previous map which desperately needed replacing! Perhaps it should be applied to the other pages relating to medieval kingdoms in Cymru? James Frankcom (talk) 23:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Ceri and Cedewain

Is it correct to describe these are part of the Kingdom of Powys? They appear to have had native ruling dynasties of their own, which would suggest that they were semi-independent polities. No doubt they were overshadowed by more powerful neighbours, and thus were strongly under their influence. However, it seems to me anachronistic to dewscribe them as part of Powys. They formed part of the land between the Severn and the Wye, whose early history is obscure, as we have little to go on but genealogies, which are often a less than fully satisfactory historical source. Peterkingiron (talk) 13:59, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Arfbais Powys arms.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:25, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Teyrnllwg?

A well-researched video published just today has cast doubt upon the name "Teyrnllwg", bringing forth many discrepancies found in the article found such as the Annales Cambriae isn't the one mentioning it but rather the Brut y Tywysogion and a possibility as to its origin, such as the name originating in a hoax by the forger Iolo Morgannwg... e (talk) 19:39, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it might be worth adding a paragraph to the article to mention the hoax/mistake, since it made it into history. I would do it if I could, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to post the appropriate sources. Grelot-de-Bois (talk) 20:53, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Ahhh, another person of culture I see Byz15 (talk) 08:06, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I think there should be a paragraph about the video on this page. I don't want to edit the main page as I am not a Wikipedia editor, but I wrote an example of what it might look like. Feel free to edit it and post it if you feel like its worth being on the main page:

This Wikipedia page used to mention a medieval kingdom called Teyrnllwg, supposedly preceding Powys. However, further investigation by Cambrian Chronicles on YouTube revealed inconsistencies in the historical sources, ultimately tracing back to the dubious works of Iolo Morgannwg, a notorious forger. In the 2013 DLC for Crusader Kings II Charlemagne, this fictitious kingdom appears in game, likely sourcing the information from this Wikipedia page. ThreeLui (talk) 08:48, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I disagree, the video itself is not reliable and user-generated (WP:RSPYT), if reliable secondary sources report on the video or the topic however then it can be more likely included, mentioning the "hoax". If a reliable source states "Teyrnllwg" is fictitious/hoax we can include and state it as such, but the Youtube video is not such. If not then either we selectively omit it (so the situation now) or find another source that at least formally disputes "Teyrnllwg", and not use the Youtube video itself, unless that author writes a paper on it or is cited by reputable sources.

I respect the effort, but Wikipedia pages are about the subject itself, so on the "Kingdom of Powys", not the "Wikipedia page on the Kingdom of Powys". Mentioned in the media should be added to this talk page however. DankJae 13:27, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

What you guys should do, regarding anything in the video, is actually use the sources Cambrian Chronicles uses and lists in his video's description Talthiel (talk) 14:46, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

@Talthiel, attempted, using some sources I can find and used in the video, but still looking for one that directly says "Teyrnllwg is fictitious". Cannot access them all, nor the 1960 pamphet called "The Fictitious Kingdom of Teyrnllwg" by Melville Richards, mentioned in this blog, which seems that it would've answered this question perfectly. DankJae 15:07, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

@DankJae: I'm trying to locate the source right now. The full citation should be: Richards, M. (1959). The Fictitious Kingdom of Teyrnllwg. Trans Lancashire Cheshire Antiq Soc 69. Vol 69, pp. 136-138.

Unfortunately, I haven't managed to find an online copy yet. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 20:28, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

This source should work rather nicely. Welsh medieval law by Arthur Wade-Evans. The relevant bit is on pg. xliii:

Late Glamorganshire legends ascribe the name of Teyrnllwg to a supposed Cymric patria lying apparently between the river Dee and the river Derwent in Cumberland, a name based on erroneous etymology as to Durnluc in Catel Durnluc, that is, Cadell Ddyrnllug, the king who founded the royal stem of Powys.

It comes with a note on the word Teyrnllwg, which states Iolo MSS.86. The same fragment contains the equally fictitious patria of Fferyllwg 'between Wye and Severn' ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 20:50, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

@ARandomName123, Great find, although uses the word "supposed" on the actual thing (still looking for more concrete wording), but uses "erroneous etymology" which my source didn't exactly state, so can back up that its an error at least from its word origin.

Was wondering what Fferyllwg meant when I stumbled across it today. DankJae 20:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Here is the sources used in the video, which may or may not all be relevant:

sources used in the video's description

Bartrum, P.C. (1993). A Welsh Classical Dictionary: People in History and Legend up to about A.D. 1000. The National Library of Wales. [1] p.81-82, [2] 82-83. link The Diocese of Chester (2017). [3] https://www.chester.anglican.org/schools/school-support/the-diocese-of-chester.php Dumville, D. (2002). Annales Cambriae, A.D. 682-954: Texts A-C in Parallel. Cambridge: University of Cambridge, Dept. of Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Celtic, [4] p. 8-9 Forbes, A.P. (1874). Lives of S. Ninian and S. Kentigern. Edinburgh: Edmonston and Douglas. [5] p.331. Gunn, W. (1819). The Historia Brittonum. London: John and Arthur Arch. [6] p.158. Ithel, A. (1851). The Pillar of Eliseg. Archaeologia Cambrensis, 2. [7] p. 296-297 Kenyon, D. (1991). The Origins of Lancashire. Manchester University Press. [8] p.71. Jones, O. (1801). The Myvyrian Archaiology of Wales - Volume II. S. Rousseau: London. [9] p.474. [10] Jones, T. (2015). Brut Y Tywysogion, Or Chronicle of Princes: Peniarth MS 20 Version. 2nd ed. University of Wales Press. Lloyd, J.Y.W. (1881). The History of Powys Fadog. London: T. Richards. [11] p. 6 Owen, R. (1897). Welsh Pool and Powys-Land. Welshpool: R. & M. Owen. [12] p.17. Phillimore, E.G.B. (1886). A Fragment from Hengwrt MS. No. 202. Y Cymmrodor, 7. [13] p.119 Smith, J.R. (1864). Brut y Tywysogion. Archaeologia Cambrensis, 10. [14] p. 8-9 Williams, G. J., (1959). Dictionary of Welsh Biography. [15] JONES, OWEN (Owain Myfyr; 1741 - 1814) [16] PUGHE, WILLIAM OWEN (1759 - 1835), lexicographer, grammarian, editor, antiquary, and poet. [17] WILLIAMS, EDWARD (Iolo Morganwg, 1747 - 1826), poet and antiquary. Williams, T. (1848). Iolo Manuscripts. Llandovery: William Rees. [18] p.86, 476, [19] 129, 531. [note 1] *two texts. One of these was identical to the other, which I only realised after the video was uploaded. From Cambrian Chronicles on Youtube.

The one I mentioned above was one I stumbled across, but can't access. I don't think we need to use all of them, but use these to improve my wording. Of course, this article is on the Kingdom of Powys, so we should avoid writing too much on Teyrnllwg. If it is a bit much, could be moved to Cadell Ddyrnllwg? (but may be undue considering that article's short length) DankJae 21:25, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

@DankJae, these are all the books on Gbooks that I could find mentioning this issue:

The Church Plate of Radnorshire: Fferyllwg between Hereford and Worcester is as fictious as Teyrnllwg between the R. Dee and the R. [preview cuts off] it's also mentioned in the index as Teyrnllwg, a fictious patria, 168

Arthurian Sources: Places and peoples, and Saxon archaeology: The term Teyrnllwg, applied to Cheshire and south Lancashire (Iolo MSS., 86) between Gwynedd and Deira and Bernicia, etc., hence some modern writers, is not found in the earlier sources, and appears to be late antiquarian fiction, coined from the epithet Durnlluc of Catell of Powys.

The Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland Volumes 95-96: The frequent occurrence of -wg as a territorial suffix was an irresistible temptation for antiquarians to manufacture such forms as Esyllwg and Fferyllwg, cf. HW i 282. On the equally spurious Teyrnllwg see Richards, 'The fictious kingdom of Teyrnllwg', Trans. Lanc. and Chesh. Antiq. Soc. lxix 136-8

I haven't looked through the sources of the video yet, but imo, this and the "equally fictitious" part of the previous note is enough to show that Teyrnllwg is fictious, or at least "appears to be fictious". It would be really nice if we could get a copy of that pamphlet by Richards though. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 21:27, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

@ARandomName123 Great finds, agree on Richards, seems he noticed it way earlier. These could be used for "fictious", although the Church Plate is the most direct of them. We would need to reword my added Vale Royal to also reference most of Cheshire-Lancashire.

None name the "possible culprit" behind this yet though. DankJae 21:51, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

@DankJae: Not sure if you're still interested, but someone over at WP:RX managed to get a copy of Richard's "The Fictitious Kingdom of Teyrnllwg", and they sent it over to me. I can send it to you as well, if you'd like.

It largely matches what we already have in the article, but it's still an interesting (though short) read, as it's apparently a criticism of another article published a few years earlier, "The Lost Kingdom of Teyrnllwg", which relied on sources from Iolo Morganwg. It also mentions another historian, Charles Oman, making a similar mistake. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 05:20, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

If it adds any missing content or can improve my wording be free to use it as a source. If it appears not to have anything new then we could ignore it or add a citation anyway. Although does it connect fictitious to Iolo? I think that connection isn’t direct in the sources used but was added here. (Even if likely true). DankJae 08:25, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Holy hell, it appears I have inadvertently began an entire debate on this matter lol. My input in this entire thing is (obviously) don't use the video itself as a source but rather the sources in the video. I'll leave it at that. e (talk) 06:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Sources Verifying Historical Teyrnllwg Hoax

...On the equally spurious Teyrnllwg see Richards, 'The fictitious kingdom of Teyrnllwg ', Trans. Lane, and Chesh. Antiq. Soc. lxix 136-8. II Cantreds and commotes 1-AIN (-EIN, -ING) CEDEWAIN [?Cadaw]. Nothing is known of a person *Cadaw, and early...

...But Teyrnllwg is nothing more than a name faked from Catel Durnluc, i.e. Cadell Ddyrnllug or the Blackfisted,...

Germsteel (talk) 01:22, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to fix Kingdom of Powys Teyrnllwg Hoax

Unfortunately Teyrnllwg appears in Google searches and the Wikipedia page discusses it as possibly fictitious. The Kingdom of Powys gets 2,487 results in a JSTOR search. There are only four results for Teyrnllwg in the same JSTOR search; two of which say explicitly that it is a hoax.

Teyrnllwg hoax explanation might be added to the Iolo Morganwg page.

✅ Done. The current explanation on the Wikipedia page should be saved here on the talk page and the reference to Teyrnllwg removed.

Saved text: The term Teyrnllwg was stated as an older name of Powys in the 1851 Archaeologia Cambrensis,[5] and said to also be used in the medieval Brut y Tywysogion.[6] However, it is likely that the term referred to an "imaginary territory" traced back to the work of known hoaxer Iolo Morganwg.[7] The term is claimed to have been incorrectly derived from deyrnllwg, a newer form of the cognomen durnluc (modern Welsh: ddyrnllug), used by Cadell Ddyrnllwg (Catel Durnluc).[8] Aside being claimed to be used for Powys, it was also used to refer to areas of Cheshire and south Lancashire.[9] This term was also translated and used to refer to only Vale Royal (in modern Cheshire),[7] which Powys would have bordered.[10]

[5]. Cambrian Archaeological Association. Archaeologia Cambrensis: "The Pillar of Eliseg", p. 297 Archived 17 January 2023 at the Wayback Machine. W. Pickering, 1851. Accessed 27 February 2013.

[6]. Newell, William Wells (1905). "Doubts concerning the British History Attributed to Nennius". PMLA. 20 (3). Cambridge University Press: 651. doi:10.2307/456601. JSTOR 456601. Archived from the original on 8 June 2024. Retrieved 8 June 2024. "while Brut y Tywysogion [...] considers "Teyrnllwg" to be only a name for Powis."

[7]. Bartrum, Peter Clement (1993). Cadell Ddyrnllug – A Welsh Classical Dictionary (PDF). The National Library of Wales. p. 83. Archived (PDF) from the original on 17 January 2024. Retrieved 8 June 2024. "Later the form deyrnllwg became popular, and finally it came to be treated as derived from an imaginary territory named Teyrnllwg. See e.g. Iolo MSS. p.86. It was also translated as "Vale Royal" and identified with a district of that name in Cheshire. See Egerton Phillimore in Cy. 7 (1886) p.119 note."

[8]. Wade-Evans, A.W. (1909). Welsh Medieval Law. The Clarendon Press. pp. xliii. "Late Glamorganshire legends ascribe the name of Teyrnllwg to a supposed Cymric patria lying apparently between the river Dee and the river Derwent in Cumberland, a name based on erroneous etymology as to Durnluc in Catel Durnluc, that is, Cadell Ddyrnllug, the king who founded the royal stem of Powys."

[9]. Morris, John (1995). Arthurian Sources: Places and peoples, and Saxon archaeology. University of Wisconsin - Madison. p. 49. ISBN 9780850337617. "The term Teyrnllwg, applied to Cheshire and south Lancashire (Iolo MSS., 86) between Gwynedd and Deira and Bernicia, etc., hence some modern writers, is not found in the earlier sources, and appears to be late antiquarian fiction, coined from the epithet Durnlluc of Catell of Powys."

[10]. Libraries, The Johns Hopkins University Sheridan (1848). "Iolo manuscripts : a selection of ancient Welsh manuscripts, in prose and verse, from the collection made by the late Edward Williams, Iolo Morganwg, for the purpose of forming a continuation of the Myfyrian archaiology [sic], and subsequently proposed as materials for a new history of Wales / with". JSTOR. The Johns Hopkins University Sheridan Libraries. pp. 408, 501. Archived from the original on 8 June 2024. Retrieved 8 June 2024. "son of Cadell, king of Teyrnllwg (the Vale Royal in Cheshire) [...] 11. Powis;—between Aerven, the extremity of Teyrnllwg, the borders of Fferyllwg, and Cantrev Orddwyv." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Germsteel‎ (talk • contribs) 03:06 26 September 2024 (UTC)

• If you're going to base your removal of all the text addressing the hoax as a glorification of it because of Google search results, note, this article still appears when typing the term out, although without any text disputing its existence anymore. It still appears alongside many results still believing in its existence. Many readers never read talk pages, so more likely to go to those other results, although hopefully the YT video. This would merely be a sentence at Iolo Morganwg per due weight, not worth much in context. In the end, let's just imagine this discussion (and the mention of the hoax on Wikipedia) never happened? DankJae 00:26, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

"Nothing happened on the Kingdom of Powys talk page between 7 June 2024 and 4 October 2024" 😅 e (talk) 18:31, 27 October 2024 (UTC)