Talk:Kin punishment

United States section

The U.S.is still proposed and therefore undue to include in this article.Sir Joseph ^(talk) 22:32, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested merge with Sippenhaft

Discussion is at Talk:Sippenhaft. Please post comments on that page. – S. Rich (talk) 07:04, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

North Korea

Reference 5 is "amended" in 2018, and says it was "retrieved" in 2010, making it no longer relevant. Furthermore, a claim from an inmate that he was imprisoned without fair trial (or wrongly), is generally a non-reliable one, is not it?

Reference 6 is actually a Wikipedia article, should not it be disallowed?

89.222.164.65 (talk) 15:26, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored and fixed the removed content. The WaPo link is perfectly reasonable sourcing. I don't see anything at the link in question describing an "amendment" in 2018. The article was updated in 2015 to update the story from their primary source, but not in ways material to the claim presented in the article. Calling claims about prison treatement "unreliable" because they come from an inmate is absurd - WaPo is WP:RS and Wikipedia policy is to assume they did their due diligence. Aside from which, the most important claim for the article's purposes is that Shin Dong-hyuk was born there, which would be rather difficult for him to fake.

The article also covers the second claim that was "cited" with a link to another article. The Kaechon internment camp is simply an example of the Kwan-li-so concentration camps being discussed, so I have copy-edited to make that clear and to repeat the citation for the second paragraph.

To others: Note that the criticism was levied unevenly, as comparable claims about other countries also currently lack proper sourcing. This article was recently cited for a popular and subsequently removed Reddit post, so further edit-warring by others is a possibility. 74.14.101.253 (talk) 22:45, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am skeptical that such a system exists in North Korea. The citations that were in place earlier linked to an organisation hat included CIA agents among its founders. Another source was Rado Free Asia, an outlet owned by the United States government which was founded to destabilise countries the United States does not support, and is infamous for publishing fake news.

Can we find independent academic sources that such a system exists in North Korea? The History Wizard of Cambridge (talk) 05:42, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Radio Free Asia is considered a Reliable Source as per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 333#RfC: Radio Free Asia (RFA) Eyudet (talk) 08:17, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Shin still maintains that he was born in prison, and here are some additional sources to address such morally deranged "skepticism."

Kim Jong Un's North Korea (Defector Ma Yak-sang attests the existence of yeonjwaje and its importance to the survival of the state)
Testimony of Kim Young-soon, whose family was imprisoned when she was charged with conspiring against the socialist system
Interview with Kim Hye-sook, who was imprisoned after her grandfather defected to the south, and who also attests the practice of mutilative execution in the camps
Anything written about Kang Chol-hwan, who was imprisoned at the age of 9 when his grandfather was charged with espionage

Wikipedia policy imposes no requirement for "academic" sources and the existence of yeonjwaje is a factual question, not merely an academic one. As the article says, many defectors claim first-hand knowledge that it exists. "Skepticism" would be more properly called delusion. 67.180.143.89 (talk) 20:41, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

North Korean defectors aren't always reliable sources of information on North Korea. Many have a financial incentive to lie given their desperate situation and the hunger for horror stories about NK, many of the highest profile celebrity defectors such as Shin Dong-hyuk and Yeonmi Park have been proven to have fabricated stories (they both wrote best-selling books), and this doesn't even cover the media coaching that they receive from both the South Korean and United States governments. The History Wizard of Cambridge (talk) 22:29, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Where a defector has been found to have given false information, that is a problem of that defector and not of all defectors, however much you might wish (for God knows what reason) that it were the latter. 67.180.143.89 (talk) 23:00, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Russia

Hi! I checked section for Russia and decided to delete this after short research. Kin punishment for terrorists was, in fact, clickbait. Long story - it was a zakonoproekt (proposition of a law) by one member of parliament. No changes in Article №205 of Criminal Code (Terrorism) and their respective sub-articles and paragraphs were made. Source - https://rg.ru/2015/01/15/rodstvenniki.html (a proposition, in Russian) http://www.consultant.ru/document/cons_doc_LAW_10699/43942021d9206af7a0c78b6f65ba3665db940264/ - Article 205, no punishment for relatives Moreover, if we take a look at all sub-articles, at article 205.6 there is an explicit addition, that "Note. A person is not subject to criminal liability for failure to report the preparation or commission of a crime by his spouse or close relative." 176.59.174.180 (talk) 17:29, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh no, that was widely practiced under Stalin (see Family members of traitors to the Motherland, for example), by Ramzan Kadyrov forces, etc. I see that was recently removed, but it needs to be included. My very best wishes (talk) 23:09, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]