Talk:Killing of Freddie Gray

Category question

I reverted the addition of this article to Category:Lynching deaths in Maryland. I am copying Deisenbe's response from my talk page in order to keep conversations about this article more accessible to all:

Extrajudicial killing by a mob - what part do you disagree with? It can't have been judicial. The police: out of control, taking the law into their own hands, killing someone - how is that not a mob? User:Deisenbe (talk) 01:54, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

I have two policy objections to placing this article a lynching category. First, the assertion that the police constituted a mob is not supported by reliable secondary sources, and therefore is original research. Second, none of the police officers have been convicted of anything (2 found not guilty, the rest had charges dropped). Although federal charges may still be pending, at this point, to call individual officers out as extrajudicial killers is obviously defamation, a violation of our policies on biographies of living persons. I agree with deisenbe that Gray's treatment was abhorrent, neglectful at the very least, but placing the article in a lynching category is inconsistent with our core policies. Other editors, of course, are invited to respond. Cheers! — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 03:34, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

It’s an extrajudicial killing without question but the systemic bias of these editors won’t allow that kind of Truthful language. Highflyingkitty (talk) 17:55, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Highflyingkitty, if you can provide a reliable source that reports Freddie Gray's death was an "extrajudicial killing", that could be included in this article. However, adding that conclusion to this article, lacking a reliable source, is original research, therefore not allowed under WP's guidelines. — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 23:34, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

This was certainly an extrajudicial killing, though not intended to be such. There is clear evidence that Gray's neck was broken in the arrest process and before he was placed in the van. For a medical analysis of those events, the reader is referred to the book Freddie's Last Ride (2020). Full disclosure: I am the author of that book. (PhysicianReader (talk) 14:54, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Your book, published by Dorrance Publishing, a self-publishing company, is not considered a reliable source for use in Wikipedia. See WP:SELFPUB. — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 15:36, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Two dates of death given

The article gives two different dates of Gray's death in the openings sentences. Did he actually die on April 12 or April 19? Akhenaton06 (talk) 02:42, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

He died on the 19th from injuries suffered during his arrest on the 12th. You're right that the opening sentence is confusing and should be rewritten to clarify. Levivich 03:20, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Gray died in less than 2 hours after his arrest on April 12, as at stop 6 he was found to be without a pulse or spontaneous respirations. This is the classic definition of death. HOWEVER, after attempted resusitation and transport to the trauma center, he was placed on life support, and death was not officially declared until Until April 19th. (PhysicianReader (talk) 14:43, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

The title should be changed to "murder of" not "death of"

since that is the truth its more neutral than "death of" Ive noticed wikipedia goes to great lengths to avoid calling murderous cops murderers. (Posted 00:45, 13 August 2021‎ by IP 156.196.65.10.)

• Oppose changing the article title to "Murder of Freddie Gray". See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths) for a helpful explanation of the logic behind conventions observed on Wikipedia. Even though the coroner reported his death as a homicide, there were no convictions, and cause or manner of Gray's death has not been conclusively explained. The relevant flowchart path leads to answering no to the question, "Is the manner of death known?" and pointing to use of the word Death. Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 06:39, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

It should be changed to “Killing of” since the death was ruled a homicide but there were no murder convictions. TheXuitts (talk) 07:20, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

TheXuitts, Under Wikipedia's naming conventions, to use "murder" in the title of an article, there must have been a conviction of murder in a trial. Even though the coroner's conclusion was "homicide", no one was convicted of murder — hence, the article is properly titled "Death of..." according to our naming conventions. — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 16:56, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I made the comment above before my first cup of coffee, and confused your recommendation to use "killing" with the use of "murder". I can see the logic of using "killing" because the flow chart offers that as one of the choices from the "homicide" box. I looked again at the section on Officer Goodson, the only one indicted on a depraved-heart murder charge, and ultimately found by a judge not guilty. All the officers had been charged with some combination of negligence, assault, and/or manslaughter, which to me points to the conclusion that Gray's death was perceived as more negligent and accidental than intentional. I can see how the article could logically be titled either "Death of" or "Killing of", but the not guilty finding and the dismissal of the other charges still points to the use of "Death" rather than "Killing". — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 19:22, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Watching Video (CNN) of Freddie Gray being escorted into the ambulance, clearly shows he is not walking of his own volition, he is being dragged by two officers; his feet are not moving but sliding along the ground. The Video Recorder notes that Freddie Gray cannot use his feet to get him to the ambulance. He appears already incapacitated. Look at the size of these police officers: they are trained to put the weight of their body with the knee against the suspect's back in an attempt to control the person; but that much weight can quickly break a spinal cord and incapacitate the person. Not enough is made of this obvious point.StevenTorrey (talk) 21:35, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Your observations may be accurate, but to include them in this article we need a reliable published source. See Wikipedia's "no original research" rule. — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 22:42, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

The cell video of the arrest, obtained by Kevin Moore and widely published on nightly news programs, is such a source. It may be viewed on youtube. (PhysicianReader (talk) 14:47, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Revision of the article in Wikipedia concerning the death of Freddie Gray

I am proposing edits and revisions of the current Wikipedia article by presenting a review of the Police Investigation, the trial testimony of all charged officers who came to trial (prior to charges being dropped), judicial statements, and the autopsy report. Basic medical information is provided throughout, and references of material are provided from those, and other, sources throughout. The article, as it presently stands, is essentially derived from its referenced media reports, and accepts mischaracterization of the autopsy report as offering medical evidence or proof of the timing of the incident. This is incorrect. An OPINION, derived from the Baltimore Police Department (per the referenced testimony of the forensic pathologist, Dr. Carol Allan), establishes that her opinion of the timing was thus derived, and did not proceed from any medical or other forensic evidence. However, the Prosecuting attorney (Mosby) took her charges from this mischaracterization of the timing of his injury. These points are vitally important to an understanding of what really happened, and the evolution of a miscarriage of justice.

PhysicianReader (talk) 15:18, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Short description

Hello @RegentsPark: I think of this as text that isn't required to make sense alone. I've only seen this used alongside or below the title. Are sds used alone? 20:49, 12 April 2023 (UTC)